IMPORTANT Reminder(s).

[Weeblie]

Talan Va'lash - 2/13/2007  8:45 PM

Ioskeha - 2/13/2007  12:36 PM

A bit much, yes.  I still hold to what I said.  I've seen this elitism attitude going on for awhile now.  Talked to people that almost left the server because they've been harrassed about their quality of role-playing - one person was actually in tears over it. It needs to stop.

Greifing needs to be reported to the GM team and real instances of it will be handled properly.

Hearsay about such and such does not mean that the proper action is to lash out on the forums in a way that may or may not be related to the issue at hand.

If you witness griefing report it to the GM team and it will be handled by the GM team.

Please also note that if you do not wish to bring forth the attention to the whole DM team, you could try with sending a PM directly to Leanthar.

---

In my opinion, the "small" things are all good and won't get too much of the scared reaction from the general population. For example, the druid walking into the town in his or her bird/cat form, or the tiny pixie following the archwizard.

[Niles09]

Ioskeha - 2/13/2007  8:36 AM

A bit much, yes.  I still hold to what I said.  I've seen this elitism attitude going on for awhile now.  Talked to people that almost left the server because they've been harrassed about their quality of role-playing - one person was actually in tears over it. It needs to stop.

Yeah, if someone RP's in a way that is obviously wrong a clap on the shoulder and a point in the right direction is far far better than a harsh speech aboutbad RP, actually I think its even better to be passive than the last. Everyone has been green at some point.

[hawklen]

Agreed Niles.

Its also better then logging off in disgust, ruining another PC's RP. "Where'd? she go?!" poor guy was running around.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Several quick points.

First, Darkstorme's got it entirely. The tone of my original post was a bit harsh because I was tired and fed up with... (Segue!)

Niles - Sure, for the newer people, I'll just send a little Tell, and I'm reasonably nice about it. I was green once, myself. But for players who have been here for months and months, and have blatantly abused the AI (or rather lack of AI) in the past... The same cannot be said.

Hawk - I crashed, and didn't want to log back on just to see the same trash from players who should know better.

I'll go ahead and admit it, I have elitist tendencies. That said, I keep them in check when dealing with new players; I have a genuine care for the wellbeing of this community that's kept me here for over a year. Part of the wellbeing of the community is the patience of the more experienced roleplayers with the less experienced roleplayers. Another part is following "suggestions" already put down by the Team.

Allow me to post a VERY applicable link, that I decided against posting last night, because I figured that people would immediately go "Oh, but this isn't a temple, and I'm not spitting on anyone!"

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=22043&posts=36&start=1

I'll go ahead and admit to having not been great on this myself, in the past, but at least I stopped after being reminded. I have plenty of examples to the contrary for the person/people who has/have been driving me up the wall.

To reiterate something Darkstorme said:

I in no way think that the orcs, drow, etc. should be accepted, while Dire Spiders aren't. I don't think any of them should be, and my new characters don't. A halfling of mine ended up shooting at Cymeran Vrinn a while back...

Joe NPC would freak out at the sight of a Drow. Or a troll. Or a massive spider. Even if the latter two are really Jane PC having fun with her Polymorph spell. As said, a druid turning into a bird and flying off might be strange, but not inherently dangerous.

Kinda like the undead typically are. You know. Dangerous.

I used the phrase "I'll go ahead and admit" a lot in this post.

Edit: Link fixed to include "www"

[hawklen]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/12/2007  3:44 PM

Hawk - I crashed, and didn't want to log back on just to see the same trash from players who should know better.

ok, that Sol guy was acting worried. Thanks for the clarification

[Niles09]

To reiterate something Darkstorme said:

I in no way think that the orcs, drow, etc. should be accepted, while Dire Spiders aren't. I don't think any of them should be, and my new characters don't. A halfling of mine ended up shooting at Cymeran Vrinn a while back...

I dont want to start the whole discussion again, but sometimes you seriously overdo the whole drow thing, and do some quite unresponsible RP, like when PC's just keep harasing a drow, that would have chopped their head of long ago if it wasn't for the pvp rule. Sometimes it would be nice if people thought, "hmmm what counteractions do this PC have, if I say this to him - and would it kill me in a pnp world."

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

The corpse of the monstrous races discussion has been beaten to a fine pulp.

And it keeps coming up again and again, partly because new players don't quite understand (forgivable and understandable) and partly because older players disregard the conclusions the community came to (neither of the above parenthetical statements, imo).

What do we do to things we fear? We leave them alone and run away, or we kill them.

That doesn't change just because something's glowing blue. The fact that it's glowing blue also doesn't change the fact that the NPCs around us (not just the ones that have representation, but the ones milling about in the gameworld) would FREAK OUT at the sight of something they are taught is a monster.

This includes undead and the things that make undead. If a commoner sees a shadow-given-life, they're going to think UNDEAD whether or not it's technically undead.

And Drow. Even if it's just an elf with black skin.

[Niles09]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/13/2007  11:16 AM

That doesn't change just because something's glowing blue. The fact that it's glowing blue also doesn't change the fact that the NPCs around us (not just the ones that have representation, but the ones milling about in the gameworld) would FREAK OUT at the sight of something they are taught is a monster.

yeah thats kinda my point, people should not burst out in anger on a drow, because they cant be killed anyway - unless ofcourse its the drow that is the weaker part. People should hate drows, unless they got a reason for not to, but if the drow is clearly stronger they should run insted of attacking.

I would say, that if you are willing to attack aggresive NPC drows wich is "impossible" for you, you're welcome to insult or attack the "impossible" PC drow, without thinking of the consequences. If not, then run away in fear instead.

[darkstorme]

Niles09 --

I dont want to start the whole discussion again, but sometimes you seriously overdo the whole drow thing, and do some quite unresponsible RP, like when PC's just keep harasing a drow, that would have chopped their head of long ago if it wasn't for the pvp rule. Sometimes it would be nice if people thought, "hmmm what counteractions do this PC have, if I say this to him - and would it kill me in a pnp world."

Stephen Zuckerman --
What do we do to things we fear? We leave them alone and run away, or we kill them.

Now, that would be good to see.  Any players not of ability or inclination (that is to say, there are many PCs for whom facing a Drow down, even if it meant their death, would be preferable to running scared) to face the Drow running off.

@Niles... it's part of being a Drow.  It's been covered before; the stigma comes with the darkvision and CHA bonus.  If a Drow of good inclination is being harassed, he's unlikely to draw on the persecutor and kill him on the spot - so if he cannot persuade the person through rational argument, he'd likely withdraw, powerful or no.  Likewise, LN and TN are unlikely to kill an opponent without warning, at mere verbal provocation.  (If there were a subdual damage system, they could beat the snot out of the uppity elf/dwarf/human - or at least try, but I digress.)  There's a reason why a certain tiefling always keeps his hood up, his hands gloved, his skin covered.  If a Drow walks around openly, protestations of goodness and light are unlikely to win over a crowd.  Look at, for example, Viconia.

Regardless, the subject has been beaten to death time and again - my point is what it has been for some time.  Drow, orcs, tieflings, goblins, and polymorphed evil-looking things... will likely be treated as typical examples of their race, unless they're personally acquainted with those they reveal their features around.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Niles09 - 2/13/2007  5:28 PM

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/13/2007  11:16 AM

That doesn't change just because something's glowing blue. The fact that it's glowing blue also doesn't change the fact that the NPCs around us (not just the ones that have representation, but the ones milling about in the gameworld) would FREAK OUT at the sight of something they are taught is a monster.

yeah thats kinda my point, people should not burst out in anger on a drow, because they cant be killed anyway - unless ofcourse its the drow that is the weaker part. People should hate drows, unless they got a reason for not to, but if the drow is clearly stronger they should run insted of attacking.

I would say, that if you are willing to attack aggresive NPC drows wich is "impossible" for you, you're welcome to insult or attack the "impossible" PC drow, without thinking of the consequences. If not, then run away in fear instead.

You're darn right that the same characters who would attack an "impossible" PC monster would attack that same character if it were an NPC. Though that makes me want to get into the fact that the "impossible" rating is OOC as well.

[AeonBlues]

This thread seems to be going off topic here.

I think what we do should make good RP sense.  My druid met a fellow named Sol.  They were talking Coyote told Sol that Coyote could make himself small.  Sol asked to see, so Coyote said "I will show you.  No one should be too scared as I will be small, but if some one asks, you say I am your pet."  Coyote then took the shape of a badger.  He ran in a few circles and changed back again.  This seemed like good RP from my point of view.

Coyote does not bring his wolf companion into towns, or walk through town in an animal form, because they might be hunted or attacked.  Birds fly through towns, and hawks deliver messages.  So a bird shape should not be perceived as a big issue, just like a small cat familiar should not be any big deal to anyone.

Common sense is the rule that should apply here.  If doing something would logically bring injury or harm to your animal companion/familiar, or make everyone hate your character, like summoning undead or shifting/polymorph into a frightening beast/monster, then you are exercising an extreme lack of common sense that your character most often would not demonstrate.

Good common sense makes for good RP.

AeonBlues

[Talan Va'lash]

AeonBlues - 2/13/2007  5:57 PM

This thread seems to be going off topic here.

I think what we do should make good RP sense.  My druid met a fellow named Sol.  They were talking Coyote told Sol that Coyote could make himself small.  Sol asked to see, so Coyote said "I will show you.  No one should be too scared as I will be small, but if some one asks, you say I am your pet."  Coyote then took the shape of a badger.  He ran in a few circles and changed back again.  This seemed like good RP from my point of view.

Coyote does not bring his wolf companion into towns, or walk through town in an animal form, because they might be hunted or attacked.  Birds fly through towns, and hawks deliver messages.  So a bird shape should not be perceived as a big issue, just like a small cat familiar should not be any big deal to anyone.

Common sense is the rule that should apply here.  If doing something would logically bring injury or harm to your animal companion/familiar, or make everyone hate your character, like summoning undead or shifting/polymorph into a frightening beast/monster, then you are exercising an extreme lack of common sense that your character most often would not demonstrate.

Good common sense makes for good RP.

AeonBlues

This post epitomizes the spirit of how this should be handled.

Edit: Hey! no stealing my GM name! *pouts*

[Laldiien]

Post deleted due to my ability to type faster than I think.
  That being said, there is no tolerance in this community. There is no room for mistakes, there is no room for different styles. There is a growing cadre of players that are bringing McCarthyism to the server. They are beginning to suck the joy out of the world because of their unwavering insistance that the way they do it is the only right way. They don't like what you do? You are branded ABAD ROLE PLAYER! You disagree with them? You are trying to ruin the spirit of the server.
  Granted, I have not been here for years, I haven't seen all the myriad of threads about all the topics that people like to complain about. But I have seen enough to know that whine posts will continue. The bullying will continue. The elitist "I'm better than you because...." will continue. Like all games, the forum sours the experience. People will take what they read here and apply it in game and become more unhappy. Then they will come to the forum and spew.
  Want an opinon? Close the forums. Leave Character Submissions, Website Login Problems, Community Support. Maybe the Taverns keep up, But General? Roleplaying How-To? CDT's? Make 'em go away. Fodder for griefing, meta-gamming and general unpleasantness. Don't delete them, just suspend them for a week. See if the level of angst on this server drops.
  Wanna bet?

[Ioskeha]

That being said, there is no tolerance in this community.  There is no room for mistakes, there is no room for different styles.  There is a growing cadre of players that are bringing McCarthyism to the server.  They are beginning to suck the joy out of the world because of their unwavering insistance that the way they do it is the only right way.  They don't like what you do?  You are branded A BAD ROLE PLAYER!  You disagree with them?  You are trying to ruin the spirit of the server.

Which is why I don't post much on the boards.  I love playing on here, but outside of the game the community can be absolutely horrible at times.  I remember sitting in IRC one time.  I watched a group of people belittle someone that wasn't even in the channel because their role-playing didn't meet their standards.  It was very sick to see.

[Niles09]

That is actually right... I remember some months back when someone started a thread stating someone in a group as bad RP's, and the first 5-10 answers would state that it was just a wrong way to start a thread. And now things like that are completly normal.

[lonnarin]

Yeah, the guy who ranted about how bad everybody RPs because some people go afk while sitting on a bench was a riot.  Plus those people who send nasty, angry tells everytime you don't stop EVERYTHING that you're doing and talk to them for an hour when you're busy doing chores in town or travelling abroad.  I mean come on, first it's insanely rude to start OOC belittling somebody for their gameplay style regardless, but to expect that every single person MUST be ready at the console and focused entirely on their character above all over tasks and priorities in their lives is a stretch of the imagination.  Who here is so bloody popular in real life that EVERY person in the shopping mall stops them and asks what they're doing, where they've been and if they can help assist in thir shopping purchases?  Some people just aren't that co-dependant in real life... most people atually.  If somebody walked up to me in the streets holding a sword screaming "Excuse me! *two second pause* I said EXCUSE ME!! Where are you going?! Hey! HEY!!!" while chasing me... I'm not going to tell them my name and life story; I'm mostly likely going to run and notify the police.

If you don't like somebody's RP, don't insult them.  It's not like they're going to want to RP with you after that anyway, and worst case scenario you now just secluded yourself from their whole list of close friends who heard about the story afterwards.  if their style really so grieviously offends you that you feel that you must lash out in anger, just take a deep breathe and leave them alone.  Following them around, yelling at them and badmouthing them behind their backs is just bitter and pointless griefing for very little reason.

[Dorganath]

I'm going to make four statements:
  1) In the original post, the first link is a server rule. It's not something that's open for debate at this time.
  2) In the original post, the second link is a reminder to keep yourselves under control with OOC comments that serve no purpose except to break immersion and fun for others.  Keep it in tells, or keep it quiet.  
  3) Nobody should be telling anyone else how to RP.  There are just too many standards for that, and even the GM Team will not define RP, because there is no one "right" way. As long as the RP  does not conflict with the rules and spirit of the server, then it is not the job of other players to decide how any other player should RP. We've said this many times. I'm not sure why it doesn't sink in.
  4) This thread needs to stay on-topic. If there is one more jab, insult, criticism or other negative comments from one player to the next, this thread will be locked.  Come on people....you're all here to have fun.  Let's try and act like mature, responsible people and allow each other their differences and respect the play time of others.

[Rowana]

Couple things to add.

1) if someone is ooc greifing another player, log it or screen shot it and PM it to a GM and report the player for greifing.

2) if you have a beef with another player, take it privately or to a GM to mediate. This public ostracizing of people, finger pointing and just general mud slinging (openly targeted or not) is not productive.

If you are a victim to or witness of unfair accusations or intimidation or any such 'brow beating' LOG it or screen shot it and get GM intervention on the behalf of the afflicted or yourself. The best way to improve Layonara is to stop this sort of as it happens, rather then letting it build up inside of you to the point of needing to explode in an ugly manor all over the forums. It is not a bother for us to help you. It is not a waste of our time. It is also a far better way to handle such problems then getting this frustrated over a game that your supposed to be having fun with!

~row

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

As an addendum to Row's post...

-IF- you're comfortable with it, I'm sure there are plenty of players who would prefer you tell them directly if you feel like you're being nagged at.

I'm one.

Aaaand I think the topic's dead.

[hawklen]

*nods sagely to him, lowers the body of the thread into a hole in the ground and proceeds to fill it up*