Author Topic: Bone Dragon, AGAIN! (Read 184 times)

twidget658 · « **on:** January 17, 2006, 10:08:16 pm »

It was left in the middle of the Great Rift. As soon as it materialized, it saw me. It is now in the Darkland Mountains hovering over my grave. So thanks to whoever stirred it up and can a GM put it back where it belongs, thanks.

Vyris · « **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2006, 10:36:49 pm »

The dragon got bored gnawing on your tombstone and went home. If it makes you feel any better it killed me about 45 minutes before it did you because I didn't see it sitting on the 'rock' when I jogged up, so.... definately a bad idea to go there and not expect it to be in the way. considering it's never where it 'should be'. I'm just thankfull that due to some heroic characters the soul mother is not plucking the soul strands of my metaphysical guitar at the moment.

Vyris

twidget658 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2006, 10:43:13 pm »

Thanks, Vyris. Also a thanks to Nova for the assist.

I hardly go through there. I have seen it two other times out of place. Once, right in the middle where I saw it this time. *shrugs* The other time, it was trading blows with the Pawn Shop Merchant in Dalanthar. Looked like a pretty even fight.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2006, 11:40:03 pm »

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twidget658 - 1/17/2006 11:43 PM
The other time, it was trading blows with the Pawn Shop Merchant in Dalanthar. Looked like a pretty even fight.

The pawnshop owners have the feat: Uber Improved Expertise - +80 AC, -80 AB

They also recieve Skill Focus: Price Gouging as a class benefit at level 1

-TV

Boxcar · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2006, 08:29:52 am »

On Saturday, something similar to what happened to Rodlin happened to me. I was traversing the Rift with Annun very cautiously and invisible when we sighted the Bone Dragon. Before we could even begin to back away (which was our plan if we saw it), it was charging. Annun died immediately, and my Bigby's actually delayed it long enough for me to haste myself and run to Delanthar, where I naively thought I would be safe. But a few moments later, it appeared there, chased me around a few buildings until I realized I was not going to get away. So I led it back to the out-of-the way corner where we had found it, and let it kill me there.

So since this has come up again, I'd like to ask this question: is the Bone Dragon LOS too far?

I ask because it seems that as soon as you see it, it sees you and there is no escaping it. With other NPCs, it seems there is a chance to sight them and back away without being forced to fight (discretion is the better part of valor, and all that). But this does not seem to be the case with the Bone Dragon (and it's the only NPC I've run into where this seems to be the case). Now, dragons of any sort are supposed to be scary, fearsome creatures and if this is by design, I would certainly understand that. It is just not a very pleasant feeling to know that you have no chance at survival when you see one.

Leanthar · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2006, 10:08:26 am »

It could be, I will look in to it.

D Blaze · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2006, 11:09:59 am »

All the dragons have a line of sight equal to a player, the moment a player gets a dragon in their line of sight the dragon will have you in their line of sight.
I don't see why their range should be lessoned (alive or dead), they are supposed to be so powerful, that their senses of awareness of all things around them is without peer (which is why they all have trueseeing as well).
Most everyone knows the old DnD description of a red dragon's sense of acuity for his treasure hoard, that even if a single gold piece is removed in it's absence without disturbing anything else, the dragon would know about it immediately upon returning anyhow.
I would assume that the dead version of anything would retain the perception range of what it used to be when alive.

As for the dragon always being out of place, that is usually due to people who do not know already where it resides. There is even a big warning standing at the entrance to it's little lair area, and that should be enough deterrence so that no one gets hurt. It is the inquisitive that get others killed, I should know, i've helped get my fair share of others killed

though nobody by the dragon.

The only suggestion I could give, would set the spawn location to also be it's Post, so that even if it charges out and kills someone who pokes their head into view, it would walk itself back out of the way as long as the AI pathing(I think that is the term) doesn't try to walk through a wall, thus not moving the dragon to a safe location at all.

Ne'er · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2006, 01:57:14 pm »

Too be honest, I really think there is only one, easy way to solve this problem. Stay out of the Rift if you don't want to risk getting mauled by a bone dragon. We all know it lives there, and if you don't want it to kill you, stay away from the Rift.

Just my thoughts though.

blonde · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2006, 02:03:44 pm »

Yup. People who know a bone dragon roams those mountains, probably wouldnt go up there unless they are prepared for a fight, or at least a fast getaway. People who dont know, learns the hard way like the rest of us did.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2006, 02:11:43 pm »

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Ne'er - 1/18/2006 2:57 PM
Stay out of the Rift

I do not think the intention of this creature is to, in essence, remove these area's from the game.

The issue is not one of "How far can a bone dragon see?" It is one of game mechanics.

There are tons of ways in PnP that you could determin that the dragon was there, or at least that something really huge was there. Unless it was standing veeery still, but, the only reason it spawns and sits there for days on end is because of game mechanics.

The dragon won't go chase any small sound it hears in the distance, since there are also golems and giants milling about, but you would be able to hear something very large and tell roughly what direction it is in.

This is not possible in NWN due to the perception mechanics and results in "nothing.. nothing... nothing.. DRAGON!" then you're dead.

So yeah, this is an issue of game mechanics.

-TV

Boxcar · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2006, 02:17:35 pm »

I did not intend to give the perception that I was complaining about dying. I knew the risks when I went in there and was prepared to accept them. You'll note that I didn't leave the dragon waiting for someone in Delanthar or any other place to which I might have run.

I only broached the topic of the dragon LOS to ensure that it was an intentional decision on the part of the design team. I would not argue against maintaining it this way because dragons should be feared; this is just one way to ensure they are. I think this is a good discussion and am always interested in seeing alterntive viewpoints

Ne'er · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2006, 02:55:19 pm »

@ Talan

Remove the areas from the game? No, of course not. I just meant that when you go there, understand that the chance of dying is very god, and if you don't want to take the risk, stay out.

As for a matter of game mechanics, I can see where you are coming from, I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree. There are ways to show that a very powerful thing is in the area. One is word of mouth, and essentially everyone knows its there. Also, leaving a few bone plies in the area would serve it good as well. Kinda sends thatmessage of "Enter at your own risk." AS I see, a creature like that bone dragon should have unnaturally good sight. And why wouldn't the bone dragon attack the golems? As I see it, it is because the golems are usually there, and it knows it presents no threat. However, a group of fleshy humanoids is a little different....

I do agree, however, that the bone dragon should be heard by people in the rift. That's were the game mechanics can't help.

Again, just my thoughts and beliefs on this.

twidget658 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2006, 03:33:04 pm »

This should be a major thoroughfare between Hurm and North Point. Yes, there are other ways around, but this is the shortest.

You can go through the Triera Mountains, Thunder Peaks (only giants with acid weapons there) and the Singing Forest (nice quetils there). Or you can take a longer route through the Wildlands Forest and Storm Horn Mountains (more giants and quetils) and let’s not forget the madmen. There is a good fight. The latter two options are at least survivable, though.

I do not believe this is a matter of ‘knowing’ it is there. This is a matter of a very twitchy dragon, on the surface, not in a cave, in an area that can be easily drawn off of its perch. And then once it is unleashed, it wreaks havoc on everyone that even goes near the area. Should Dalanthar’s pawnshop merchant be fighting it? Should a person going to the bank run into a Bone Dragon?

Ne'er · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2006, 03:41:02 pm »

I'm not saying the Dragon should be fighting the pawnshop guy in Dalanthar. If it kills you then, than that's wrong. But if you find it in the Rift, then that's the risk you take. But when/if you find it in the Rift, you have to understand that, yeah, the bone dragon is here. And you should accept the fate and give it your all. Happened to me before with all sorts of things, be it Bloodstone Mercaneries, or various other baddies. Exploring dangerous areas is a risky game, and you have to take it when you die.

Not trying to sound mean or anything, but hey, if the Bone Dragon gets you in the Rift, then think twice before going back *smiles*

Oh, and a route from Hurm to North Point? Sail to Leilon, walk to Hlint, and take the portal at Morakens tower. You might run into an orc.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2006, 04:38:15 am »

The point is, that there is no way to perceive anything in any way other than sight in NWN. And that sight is limited to the range at which creatures are rendered on the screen.

This is the ONLY manner of perception in the NWN mechanics, therefore it is the one we must rely upon.

There are a large enough number of ways to discern IC that the dragon is where it is from far enough away to decide to take a different path to avoid it.

In NWN none of these ways are possible because we must rely upon the only manner of perception that is in the NWN mechanics: sight, as limited by the range at which things are rendered. Therefore, we allow creatures to be seen, before they see you to account for the plethora of ways to note the presence of or observe a creature before it sees you. This is how 99% of the creatures in Layonara are set up, and the above are the reasons why.

This is just an issue of game mechanics and a choice (probably on L's part) of whether he thinks this situation is appropriate or not.

All allegations or references to luring are unrelated to the issue of whether its perception is too long. Comparisons with other nasty creatures that are often lured are also unrelated as the perception issue is not present on those creatures.

If it is decided that the dragon's perception is proper as it is, I would suggest an message trigger something like: "You hear the low resonating thumps of a very large creature to the east of you." if entering from dalanthar or "You hear the low resonating thumps of a very large creature to the south(east) of you." when coming from the north. don't remember if it would be just south or south east though.

-TV

Lilswanwillow · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2006, 01:17:36 am »

but, if someone had triggered it earlier, then it will say that, and then.... its somewhere else.

I LIKE the idea of a dragon being there, I sure as heck will stay clear of the rift (if others hadn't already told me that it was a horrid place) because of the dragon. (and the giants, and the golems...)

and, this is a RP ing world: things are SUPPOSED to just pop up sometimes. Consider that the dragon has an area, and be cautious. AND be glad that it can't go too far, and that it doesn't go to Hlint. THAT would make for some good rp'ing... its supposed to happen, and YES I would die. BUT, its just a game, and its just a character. Yeah, I'm working hard on her. BUT I accept the fact that there are things bigger than me flying around, and being destructive. In the type of world that Layo is, and in most books ya read, dragons don't just stay in one spot: they go out to hunt, get gold, cause problems, eat cows... all sorts of bad things.

AN if it kills me: oh well, thats what dragons do!!!

Lalaith Va'lash · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2006, 07:47:32 am »

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Lilswanwillow - 1/21/2006 4:17 AM but, if someone had triggered it earlier, then it will say that, and then.... its somewhere else. I LIKE the idea of a dragon being there, I sure as heck will stay clear of the rift (if others hadn't already told me that it was a horrid place) because of the dragon. (and the giants, and the golems...) and, this is a RP ing world: things are SUPPOSED to just pop up sometimes. Consider that the dragon has an area, and be cautious. AND be glad that it can't go too far, and that it doesn't go to Hlint. THAT would make for some good rp'ing... its supposed to happen, and YES I would die. BUT, its just a game, and its just a character. Yeah, I'm working hard on her. BUT I accept the fact that there are things bigger than me flying around, and being destructive. In the type of world that Layo is, and in most books ya read, dragons don't just stay in one spot: they go out to hunt, get gold, cause problems, eat cows... all sorts of bad things. AN if it kills me: oh well, thats what dragons do!!!

Your right about much of this. But as I see it the point was not that Dragons should stay in one spot, but ...
Dragons don't have 50 ranks in Move silently. You would be able to hear where the dragon was and back away before you and him saw each other. As it is now, your only warning is sight. And since the dragon sees father than you... well. You get the picture.

Wintersheart · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2006, 08:35:22 am »

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Lalaith Va'lash - 1/21/2006 4:47 PM Your right about much of this. But as I see it the point was not that Dragons should stay in one spot, but ...
Dragons don't have 50 ranks in Move silently. You would be able to hear where the dragon was and back away before you and him saw each other. As it is now, your only warning is sight. And since the dragon sees father than you... well. You get the picture.

Not if it stomps around, but a Bone Dragon perched on a rock face swopping down from a dark sky wouldn't give much in the way of warnings. I have never used a dragon in a campaign who didn't use darkness, cloud cover or height to its advantage and dragons can (if smart) move both fast, silent and effectively unseen. I do agree we are rather limited by the NWN engine (game mechanics) when it comes to monsters, but in all fairness it works both ways, but having said that I agree there MAY be problems with this one encounter.

ZeroVega · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2006, 08:50:29 am »

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Wintersheart - 1/21/2006 11:35 AM
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Lalaith Va'lash - 1/21/2006 4:47 PM Your right about much of this. But as I see it the point was not that Dragons should stay in one spot, but ...
Dragons don't have 50 ranks in Move silently. You would be able to hear where the dragon was and back away before you and him saw each other. As it is now, your only warning is sight. And since the dragon sees father than you... well. You get the picture.

Not if it stomps around, but a Bone Dragon perched on a rock face swopping down from a dark sky wouldn't give much in the way of warnings. I have never used a dragon in a campaign who didn't use darkness, cloud cover or height to its advantage and dragons can (if smart) move both fast, silent and effectively unseen. I do agree we are rather limited by the NWN engine (game mechanics) when it comes to monsters, but in all fairness it works both ways, but having said that I agree there MAY be problems with this one encounter.

Well it's not really a Bone Dragon, it's a Bone Dragon Golem, so instead of undead it's a construct. Also in my experiances the place where it spawns is not upon a rock it's in a little valley type thing off to the side. Also I tend to agree that it wouldn't have 50+ move Silently Points, and being in mountains I'm sure the sound would reverberate quite well. However if you're dumb enough to go past the Bone Dragon Golem's sentry than you deserve to be killed.
ZV-

Pen N Popper · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2006, 09:08:11 am »

Would it be possible to solve this in an in-character fashion? Seems there are a lot of creative and powerful PCs in the land. Perhaps Blood's forces wouldn't appreciate a visit from a bone dragon golem thingy as they prepare for battle. Surely several juicy halflings being dragged along behind a hasted monk as bait ought to do the trick?