Characters, NWN2 and thoughts

[EdTheKet]

It’s on nearly everyone’s mind these days. What is Layonara going to do with the characters when we move over.
   
  First, let me make clear to you all that we have not decided yet what to do.
  However, I will try to list the things we’re weighing, and maybe you as player have some insight as well.
   
  Many things are not yet known about NWN2 though. What we do know is that in NWN2, you can’t go beyond lvl 20. Level 20+ is likely being saved for expansion packs.
   
  So here’s a list of options, note that there might be more, but it’s the ones that are most obvious.
  You will see problems with each of them, as well as advantages and disadvantages, which all need to be taken into consideration and weighed.
  Feasibility, practicality, player happiness, player retention, consistency, all these things need to be taken into account.
   
  Hopefully, you will see that it is by no means a clear cut case or a straightforward decision which needs to be made.

   
  1. The Full Wipe
  This means everyone starts a new character at level 1. That way, it’s a new start for everyone.
   
  Advantages:
  - everyone starts out the same
  - everything is new for everyone
  - you get the option to break out of your ‘group’ you may have been in and leveled with in NWN1 and meet more people then those that were close to your level in NWN1
  - players can’t explore every area of the new servers immediately, they need to grow in power first before being able to explore everywhere.
   
  Disadvantages:
  - everybody loses his NWN1 character to whom he/she has grown attached and invested a lot of time in
  - hundreds of new character submissions to be approved by the GMs (but this can be done in a long period, i.e. open up submissions 2 months before switching or something)
  - people leaving because there is no point in continuing to play with a character that can’t be played in NWN2

   
  2. The carry-over-characters-to-NWN2 option
  This means people get to keep their characters and play on. This isn’t as easy as it sounds though.
   
  Problems:
  - Characters from NWN1 can probably not be imported into NWN2 so have to be remade. All of them, which is a lot of work (and comes in addition to building a new world)
  - Characters of lvl 20+ need to be delevelled somehow, as 20+ doesn’t exist in NWN2. How should these be delevelled? To 20? To half their level? Some other factor?
  And if we delevel them by a certain factor, how do we deal with characters below 20?
  And how do we explain away the fact that characters all of a sudden become less powerful then they were?
  - What to do with crafting? It is not known if we can implement CNR in NWN2. If it can, do we return people to their previous crafting level, or change it, or set it to zero (which would be strange).
   
  Advantages:
  - People keep the characters they already have
   
  Disadvantages:
  - Consistency issues with conversions (i.e. becoming less powerfull, having a lower crafting skill)
  - Lots of work transferring characters to NWN2
  - People can immediately explore all new servers because of their high level, this can lead to a ‘been there, done that, bye bye’ attitude with players leaving.
  - people don’t start out all equal

   
  3. The “in between” option
  A certain level is set, everyone above gets transferred to NWN2 (but delevelled in some way due to the lvl 20 max issue), everyone below that certain level needs to start over.
   
  Advantages:
  - less work in transferring and conversion
  - some people would keep their characters, and they are likely those who already influenced the world, like completing their Epic or World Leader quest.
   
  Disadvantages:
  - some people will not keep their characters. So it can (and will) be seen as an unfair transfer, so people will leave
  - people don’t start out all equal

     
  4. Full wipe with extras
  Everyone will start a new character at lvl 1, however, those who left a mark on the world (i.e. successfully completed their Epic/WLDQ, or above a certain level) get something extra. Examples could be some kind of descent from the previous character (if the NWN2 campaign is in the future), note that this does not mean special powers or anything, just some added flavor.
  They could for example, describe the history of the family line from the NWN1 character to the NWN2 one.
   
  Advantages:
  - everyone starts out the same
  - everything is new for everyone
  - you get the option to break out of your ‘group’ you may have been in and leveled with in NWN1 and meet more people then those that were close to your level in NWN1
  - players can’t explore every area of the new servers immediately, they need to grow in power first before being able to explore everywhere.
  -there’s still a sense of being linked to ‘old’ characters.
   
  Disadvantages:
  - everybody loses his NWN1 character to whom he/she has grown attached and invested a lot of time in
  - hundreds of new character submissions to be approved by the GMs (but this can be done in a long period, i.e. open up submissions 2 months before switching or something)
  - people leaving because there is no point in continuing to play with a character that can’t be played in NWN2, but maybe less so as there’s a sense of continuity.

 
So you see, there's a lot to consider, as well as several things that are unknown. That's why we still haven't decided on what we're going to do yet.
Feel free to share your insights, but please do take into account the points already raised above, and think of any advantages, disadvantages and potential problems with your suggestion.
Thank you.

[silverdraco]

I don't mind waiting until you guys have decided on what you want to do.
  I am already taking steps for a possible "full wipe with extras"-option, I am completely aware that it might not happen and I'm oke with that.
  Personally I would start a new character for layo/nwn2 anyhow, since it would be easier for me to RP not knowing all areas. It’s harder for me if my character knows a lot of areas and I as a player haven't been there.
    I understand that a full wipe (with or without extra's) would mean I have to make an new character that might (or might not) be a descendant of my NWN1 character.
  I also understand that it would mean you guys of the team would have to get a lot of submissions approved. But starting with the submissions about 2 moths before release sounds like a possible solution. Still it would mean a lot of work for the layo team.
    The problem of some players leaving because of one of the options is something that might not be avoidable. Since some people can not or will not buy NWN2 for what ever reason. On the other side the players that love to be on Layo for reasons like: loving the RP quality or other reasons, will not leave, or at least try every option they have to be able to play on Layo/NWN2. I’m not sure about that but it's my own view on things. I understand if not every player agrees with me.
    Like I said a full wipe with or without extra's, sounds like a good idea to me. But then again I haven't been playing for a very long time and I'm not too attached to my character.

[EventHorizon]

Nice post Ed

Reading through I must say I like option 4 the best.

1. The disadvantages of having to put out hundred of work hours ressurecting the characters from today's layonara, reintegrating them in the new world. In terms of character power, crafting, soulstrands?, property and overall cohession to its predecessor of today, I simply don't see how this option can be comfortable. Even if you neglect most of it, which you state would be odd, it will likley take just as long having them returned, as it would getting regular subs, probably even longer.
There is the level question, who gets what and why, is it fair. It brings so many issues that simply has a huge headache warning written all over it.

2. The joy in doing something new.
Being unable to see everything and travel everywhere is something that will drive people to continue playing.
Isn't it human nature to explore the unknown?
I mean come on, you aren't going to be copy pasting layo into nwn2? :O
What will be beyond the horizon of the new layonara "hlint"?

3. The equality factor.
Even though some world leaders of today might have left a more significant mark in the history of layonara. Being able to describe a familly line and perhaps play a decendant of their character of today's world isn't impossible for anyone?
The only difference is of course not everyone will play the decendant of the harper or the bird lord?
And even if they choose to do so, does it automatically mean they will become the new one in the new world?
If it makes more sense then perhaps put it some old characters as NPCs if the future isn't too far off.
Then in time, a new player controlled character could replace the NPC. Be it a known and skilled warrior, a dwarven thane, the harper etc. It would make sense and still bring an overall fairness.

4. The new Era.
The time of the dragon called is over. Or will be over as the Dark Ages ends?
What will become of Layonara, will the dregarian kingdom recover? Or will new warlords fight it out and forge their own new kingdoms and empires?
No matter the outcome, I think with a new era, there should be a new people, and a new generation of adventurers.

[DMOE]

This may be a daft question but what is the rush to transfer to NWN2?
  If Layo waited until the expansion packs come out that do allow 20+ characters then there would be no need for any decisson.  I mean Layo isn't looking at tranfering to NWN2 till around four months after it's released anyway by which point there will most likely be at least one expansion out.
  Those that wished to create new characters could and those with time invested in exisiting characters could transfer them.
  Also it would allow the whole team more time to play with and poke at NWN2 before it went 'live' on Layo so to speak as well as allowing more time for money to be raised to sort out the servers to run NWN2....Would give Obsidian chance to iron out the kinks too.

[ZeroVega]

Oh oh oh! I'm not going to make this confusing or long winded... 1 or 4. Pretty simple, I like 1 and 4!  

[minerva]

My feelings are leaning toward option 4, but I'm with DMOE.  Why the rush?  Looking at my 3year old PC and the specs for NWN2 I know an upgrade is not in the budget for a good long time.

[Honora]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Love the idea of a full wipe.  Already got my next char planned (monk, of course).  Those people who had the time, patience and devotion to make their mark in NWN will likely do so again in NWN 2, old char or no.  It's the person, not the char.  

Only one other thing; I reallllly hope there is CNR and crafting in NWN 2...that is a big big part of the game for me.

[Ar7]

Honora - 7/8/2006  5:10 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Love the idea of a full wipe.  Already got my next char planned (monk, of course).  Those people who had the time, patience and devotion to make their mark in NWN will likely do so again in NWN 2, old char or no.  It's the person, not the char.  

Only one other thing; I reallllly hope there is CNR and crafting in NWN 2...that is a big big part of the game for me.

I´ll have to disagree since I can name a long list of players/characters who do not play as much any longer. As such loosing their characters could become aproblem to them.

That being said, I will really agree with any decision being made, though I do fancy keeping Rufus around.

PS. This just came to my mind, the point about character suddenly becoming weak, if they are being tranfered, is a bit wrong. Because relatively to the entire world, they will still remain very powerful. So it is not the level, but the level/world ratio that counts

[Ar7]

One more thing, sorry about the second post, but I thought it was better that way.

A plus to transfering some (all) of the characters to NWN2 is that the balancing process will be easier. The entire world - all dungeons, areas, enemies - will be tested, since there will higher level characters from the start. As such you will be able to solve all the balancing issues at once, instead of them kreeping up one by one and causing trouble.

I will bring an example, the crypt on east, the one near Demon mountains. It was rarely used, as there were few epics back then, so even though balance issues existed, nobody knew of them. Then one group of players camped and was caught, remember the scandal?

I think it could have been avoided if there were more players moving around the area. So this experience should be kept in mind during the transition to NWN2

[LordCove]

Im also going with 1 or 4.

I agree that the time some people have put into their PCs deserves recognition. Anyone who has completed a World Leader quest should have some kind of recognition in NWN ( special abilitie.....increase in a certain save or certain stat ).....since theyve helped shape Layo.

But I must confess, I would like the chance to start from scratch with everyone else and claw my way up to an Epic Level 20. It would probably gut me to start NWN2 as a new Level 1 character.....and find that there are already Level 20 characters running around.....claiming all the best quests and having their names placed into the history of Layonara all over again.

It would be nice to give everyone the chance to change the path of Layonara if they wish to put the hours into it.

Or....if characters are transferable......make them keep their DT tokens.

Not sure. Come on folks, what you think?

[Nyralotep]

Option 1 for me.  I like it as it will place all players at the same point.

[Acacea]

I would think you wouldn't need the extras option in order to say you were descended from x character, otherwise there'd be little question. You'd just take the full wipe and for the majority of characters it would make little difference if they said they were N's great-great-great-great-great grandson or something. For anyone in any position of influence or the few playing a PC that would be legend in the future, that would be something of a bummer and lacking in flavor, as that option wouldn't be really open for them...in a sense, punishing the ones who have been around the longest and spent the most time on their characters.

Option number four takes into account the need for less strain on the staff in the transfer-headache, the need for a clean start for everyone to start at the same level and the world to be made into how it is envisioned, and the need to not totally rip apart all the time of stories and development that many people have put as many as a few years into, and the quests that have revolved around them. Some for only a single character that will be lost in the wipe.

I don't see, for instance, why Kobal's descendants wouldn't still hold the mountain...and also don't really see why Harlas couldn't play one of them. It's not a super-item, not uber-powers, just a piece of a story, a single facet of development handed down instead of being lost to a transition. I know I can think of a few people that would simply not be returning should they not be able to salvage at least a little bit of the stories they've put so much into. Many people still would, but I think the last option best suits everyone, in both fresh starts all around, and acknowledging work and loyalty.

Even if we waited for epic levels, I don't think the characters should be transferred over, at all, ever.

In fact, whether or not we switch to NWN2 at all, it seems like an overhaul should be had at some point, even moreso with the main plot completed... I imagine there are a lot of unhappy people that wouldn't agree with me, though.




a) I don't think any of the 'extras' should be in terms of items, levels, stats, or that kind of mechanical gain, unless/until it merely ties in with something similar to 'epic' status much much much later in life. In which case it's still not a mechanical benefit at the start.

b) I don't think it should be just 'World Leaders' OR 'anyone above a certain level.' I suppose it makes it harder that way, but it is after all up to the players to write the things. There is no level that I would say "everyone above this has affected the world enough to do it" but it certainly isn't limited to epics, either. Maybe scale it by level  but widen the number who can try for it, or something. One of those "broaden selection, raise standards" things.

c) I think in the case of multiple characters that have had such an effect on the world, only one per player should be approved like that (ie with the 'extras) from the start. I'm not really seeing this as a "must-do," just a suggestion.

d) I'm not in any hurry... and I feel like I have a long way to go with my character. I just think it should be done eventually, regardless of what game we're playing. As long as we know a ways ahead of time, we can at least know to wrap up our stories or not.


(Edited for grammar: affect/effect)

[Pen N Popper]

I'll just throw out a crazy idea...
  First, I am assuming that for the first 4-6 months that nwn2 is out the Layonara world team will be excited (like many of us) and will be working on the nwn2 version of the world. This leaves a gap in support of the nwn1 version which we should all expect. The team will have the tough job of trying to keep a solid player base while balancing work on the new version. On the other hand, lots of players too will take this time to play with nwn2 themselves outside of Layonara.
  So, here's the crazy idea: Have the current world, Layo #1, slowly begin shrinking due to some cataclysm. Areas begin disappearing to ruin, foes once spread out are driven to other areas as if before a wild fire. The module shrinks which hopefully reduces Layo #1 support hastles but keeps players entertained. As portions of Layo #2 come online, a portal opens. Your PC from Layo #1 can step back and forth through the portal. In the Layo #2 version he starts at level 1 as they are truly two separate char vaults on the server. I'll leave the full story of the two worlds up to others more creative than myself.
  What does this do? It is kind of like the best of both worlds.

• You keep your old PC in the old dying world as you build your new PC with the same persona.
• Perhaps there are some quests on the old Layo #1 side that bestow power/gifts/items to the Layo #2 side (since inventories don't swap across the portal).
• Players get a chance to migrate themselves from nwn1 to nwn2 (system hardware, new game features, etc.)
• The Layo team gets to roll things out as slowly as they wish. No rush or pressure on them.

[Fian Bearsark]

Though its a tough pill to swallow, a total wipe and starting everyone at level one is my first choice. I think the fear of it is greater than the actuality. I understand the loss of a cherished character but I think we all are creative enough here to come up with a new character for the new PW. Also, if you love a character you presently have, just re-make them in the new world. Now you get to play them all over again and explore their personality.

I will mention I do also see the advantages to option 4. I also play on a server called Stormnexus, where there is something called "Ascensions". Many of you have probably seen this idea before. A character reaches level 40 and submits for an Ascension. They are give a number of points to spend on stats, feats, or skills. Then they make the new version of their character (changing the name slightly) and once the ascension is appproved and the waiting period over, the chosen bonus skills, feats, etc. are edited into their character and it can be played. This gives an extra edge to the Ascended character. They start at level one but have an extra feat or two, or their DEX or STR is higher than what a "normal" 1st level character is capable of.

Personally I advocate Option 1, however painful initially. I think we all at one point or another deal with the loss of a character here and on other servers. I just saw the post about a character named Glenn who got his last DT and was sorely missed by the player and his friends. Its sad, but I would imagine the player will make a new character and develop a whole new aspect of RP with it. So in a way we all already face the imminent fact of losing our characters here.

[pejsaboy]

I think Pen N Popper has the best idea here. at least as far as slowly destroying layo 1 and implementing layo 2 on the server as it is available. I would, however combine it with option 1. That would allow players to continue with their current characters and experminent with a new character on layo 2 as the world slowly grows. And as Pen notes, slowly killing one world and rolling out the new one allows the team to progress at a more comfortable pace. That might mean an easier time fixing bugs and ironing out kinks.
I personally will probably not be getting nwn2 right off the bat, as it is going to require serious hardware upgrades for both me and my wife. Those aren't cheap
combining these two ideas would allow me more time to get the necessary upgrades to play nwn2. I would hate to have to leave layo just because my computers aren't up to playing the new version.

[Chongo]

A couple thoughts, and I'm sure there will be some difference in opinions here. I'm happy to have a polite discussion on any of these points with anyone disagreeing.  1) There is no way to be 100% fair if there are transfers.  2) There will be a population of players that find transfers to be a form of favoritism, and while I personally think favoritism is as natural as butter on bread... it's still a burden on the community to have it rear it's head in the form of rants or general big brother theorists.  3) Anyone who feels that holding onto their time invested character translates into more roleplay opportunity is wrong. I've actually found that there's a propensity towards decreased roleplay value if they are thrown in at an increased level. Their own experience is diminished and it's akin to being on staff and building the world. You see it too fast and just plain aren't as excited as you should have been during the experience.  4) The workload associated with transfers is far far more then new character approvals. I don't think anyone will dispute this. It is easier to flatline everyone.  5) The value added of higher level balancing is minimal.  6) Don't do anything that is biologically impossible. Don't stretch the scope of magic with time portals.  7) The server will gain a sincere reputation as an adventuring company server if a core group, which by nature will be staff due to staff generally being here the longest as that's how they gained their staff position, is granted higher levels from the start and enter a different bracket of questing and world influence. I'm not saying this is a terrible thing, the cream rises, and it's the cream that most often contributes... though it's where the perception will be proven.   The feeling of mortality of a character will sting a lot of people. I bet that a lot of people will start the depression now if they know their character will be going away due to graphics upgrades. I'm guessing over 90% of the server has felt this sting. Maybe not on 5 year old characters, but probably on multi-year characters that went away with a wipe or by other measures. And they were unhappy the second they heard it was going to happen and their motivation was temporarily destroyed. Some for a couple days, some for a couple weeks. Some just left because they finally realized that this game is temporary... which we all tend to forget or refuse to recognize. But then... you're all still here aren't you? You're all excited with your current characters aren't you? I know I am. So accept a new start in 2007. Put off accepting it for now if that makes today more enjoyable... but don't sacrifice what's fair and best for a community that deep down desperately loves new beginnings.
  9) This is presumption at it's best, but based on my limited experience with these things, I am guessing that the lead developers, the very few folks now in the exciting phase of defining a new world, or new age, have their mindset on new beginnings. They know that this is the best stage of a product's life, and it's the most exciting time. And I'm guessing that the reasons for considering the transfer of characters is to keep their best players and best workers motivated to keep the world spinning. This is a true signal of respect for the people making this world spin. The greatest motivation would be to offer them confidence in return that you don't need reward or transfered status and/or time value to keep it spinning.  10) I touched on this already a bit and I don't at all intend to be mean with this statement, but... anyone who feels that the game will not be fun if they have to 'start over' is already burned out and should probably find something else to do, or rekindle their love with the game somehow.   Sure it's not easy, but ff you can't love a beginning and find excitement for it... then what excitement is left for you on the world?  It's the experience that defines the best of why we're here right? You can't deny that the best experience has a beginning and an end. Transfers.... limited continuation of what once was is by definition stagnation.   Anyhow, I hope this is constructive.

[Chongo]

And yes... that was just a color test on numbers.

[Vyris]

Heres some random thoughts on the ideas, I'm going to try to list a few positive and negative things.


I am in favor of a full wipe. I like my characters, and I'm very attached to them, I would LOVE to transfer one of them to NwN2, but really I think the feasability of it is going to be the deciding factor.

NwN2 is a new game, and we are going to have a new world, regardless of whether the plot gets placed 100 or 1000 years in the future, or whether we do a 'prequel' type of thing and go BACK in time to a lost era before Blood and recorded history, or whether we start out after a dark age, when all knowledge of previous events is lost. The fact remains that unless they make NwN2 backward compatable by some whim of thier own bringing anything we currently have forward to what we will be moving to is going to be a gigantic pain in the arse.

If we allow people to retain characters theres the rebuild process for the new game. I see 100's of GM hours spent on that.

If we allow people to retain characters do they get to retain an item or two? Would be silly to strip them of their most prized possesions imho, but that leads to a balancing and consistancy issue as well.

If we allow people to retain players, even at a reduced level thats is going to instill resentment in the 'lesser haves' It's a fact. And I don't mean to minimize the role that those who have gone epic or beyond here on Layonara, but the next incarnation will be a new layonara.

If we allow people to retain players it WILL unbalance the game. Those higher level players will be in higher level areas, and, though they will be the front guard on balancing and bugfixing for sure, they are also going to be selling those higher end items they find to lower end players, they will be accumulating coin and resources at an accelerated rate, and it will set the stage for an 'elite' group of players for a good many months. While everyone else is struggling to explore and get thier feet under them, there will be a group of people who will become the aristocracy of the game, by virtue of getting to skip the beginning.

For example, take a level 25 character, say he has to get knocked down to level 12.5 (just to keep the math simple) That level 12.5 character is going to be able to jump right out from the gate and get much further afield than anyone else. By the time those that start at level 1 are at level 7 he'll most likely be nearing level 14, assuming we keep a similar XP scale, by the time the 'regulars' get level 10 he'll be 16. Now, lets go back to the start...

Mr. Level 12.5 starts out, his buddy is level 1. They have a lot of fun playing together, so Mr. 12.5 takes his buddy out with him. Buddy gets a free ride basically though the more challenging beginning stages, has access to goods, items, and money beyond his own ability to attain. Despite whatever rules are in place, thats GOING to happen.

People are going to leave layonara, thats a fact no matter what happens. New people are going to join as well. I think since the GM team is starting now we are going to be ahead of the curve with implementation, and will probably be one of the first NwN2 PW's out there.

Its hard for me to think of anything really positive about keeping ANY existing players, yeah, it sucks for those who have tons of hours into a character thats gotten to a level of prestige in THIS world, but why should that carry over into the NEXT world? I just think it would be far less of a headache for everyone to begin again with a new character, with a new story, a new world, in a new game with new challenges and new opportunities to make themselves great again. Besides, how to you accomodate the all knowing right hand of the god of whatever within the new story line? Or do those that have spiffy titles suddenly lose them? That makes even less sense.

Anyway, I don't envy the choices you guys have to make. If it were me, once the plug were pulled on THIS version of Layonara, that would be the last of it. New game, new world, new character.

Vyris

[Reventage]

Just going to chime in as one of the players with a character in one of the extremes level wise.

I fully agree with what Chongo stated and see very little good in holding on to the old characters after the transition.

To keep it short and sweet: I love Rev and have had a blast playing her but I can't come up with a concept that would allow moving her into the NWN 2 that I can approve. The only thing that comes even close would be turning her into an NPC.

Everything has its lifespan and Rev has had a good life.

Furthermore by being forced to start from the beginning we old timers get to mingle with the new players which, I believe, will be good for us all.

Full wipe, while maybe allowing the new characters to retain a bit of the glamour of their ancestry, is the only path I see as feasible.

[Xandor Loriland]

Anything short of a total wipe is going to cause hard feelings with someone and that will result in more work for the team when they need to be implementing NWN2 and making the new Layo.  The fairness and freshness with a complete wipe is the only way I can see to smooth the transition.  I have enjoyed Rawkwin but I am also looking forward to entering the new Layo like I did Hlint for the first time with no clue of what to expect.