Characters, NWN2 and thoughts

[ZeroVega]

So, yeah, I'm pretty bias toward one choice so I'm not even going to waste breath being fair and balanced.
  Top 10 Reasons that ZeroVega wants a Complete Wipe:
[list=1]

• An even playing field for everyone come NwN2
  
• More old and new player interaction
  
• No mullagins. (I have only one character that I play consistently, but several people have two or more. It would be unrealistic and silly to try and get all of everyone's characters switched over and if you ask someone to pick one character, that character might not have any friends come NwN2 or may have lost the few PCs that made him/her worth playing. Constant doubt would fill my mind if I played more than one character about whether or not I made the right choice.
  
• We just don't know how far into the future we'll be going. What is going to happen between now and "then"? The whole world could freeze over and everyone could migrate underground, all the drow could migrate ABOVE ground (not much sunlight any more you know?) the dragons could establish a Draconian Empire... any number of things could happen that would raise the call for a new generation of heroes. Could happen today or it could happen in three months, we just don't know.
  
• Fun-ness factors. I'm sorry, but I believe that one of the funnerest things about Layonara, is that there's always someplace you haven't been! Exploring all of the areas from level 1 to level 20 has given me some of the best times of my LIFE. I would NOT continue playing Tath, even if I was given the choice to. I wouldn't want to be able to buff up and romp across the whole of several continents without ever taking a single damage point. I want to strugle and fight for my life to get something as mundane as an apple! That's what it's all about.
  
• Quest involvment: Well, there is this stigma going around that higher level characters control quests. It's partially true (though it's as much the fault of lower levels as it is higher) and if you allow Epics of World Leaders to keep playing that gap will only increase. Plus there will be the whole favoritism thing and then migranes...
  
• Because I say so.
  
• Because Chongo says so.
  
• Because Rev says so.
  
• Because Vyris says so... wait! Vyris is back?!
  

[Xandor Loriland]

I would think the hardest thing about shifting characters over would be deciding how to make the rules match.  The 3.5 rules are so different that I think I would have made very different decisions in making a cleric with how domains are handled and such.  I think the amount work involved in translating the characters would take all of the work away from making Layo 2 cool.  From a team work load standpoint I think we want them working on Layo 2 and not on moving characters and resolving rule differences.

[lonnarin]

I like option 4, but the extra can only be that they have a statue of themselves in front of an important building like a temple, library or courthouse, or that the epic characters are NPCized to replace the Waylends, Talons, Garents and Erirbags of the world.  Instead of Erag asking for dark essences, it could be a dreaded dark robed guy named albert who smells like onions, or the nefarious coldfinger looking for mummy dust.  On that note, you could put people like Rufus in as right hand men to the Black Sun, have Ozy find some dreaded artifact that has him becoming the nxt Bloodstone and laying wast to Voltrex... etc.

Also, when the next verion comes out, please split the beginning city into 3 options... Farmlandsy Hlintesque, Barbarian Outskirts and Big-City dirty slums.  Make all Wemics, Orcs, Goblins, Drow, Duergar, brownies, barbarians & rangers etc start off in the barbarian outskirts with their own amneties and such, with the same for the goody goodies and half-breeds in farmboy-land and the rogue, wizards and nefarious CN types have to deal with life in the slums.

In this way, we can avoid the whole "Hlint is a freak town!" aspect, and give each character a chance to have some breathing room and alienation from other races.  Though, I would also like to see these 3 initial spawnpoints within safe walking distance of one another, akin to Hlint to Llast to Leillon, or Hlint to Spellguard... etc.

[Emerald Skye]

Hi Guys! I usally don't express my opiniom but here is a short one.

I am for a total wipe too. *smiles at Chongo and Rawk and a few more* I think it would be fair not only to us players but to the team as well. They have worked hard to provide a great gaming experience for everyone and to spend time Transferring Characters and dealing with issues just seems silly when they can be continuing to build a great world. Some one above mentioned that maybe the epics can be NPC's and I think that would be a great idea. Just my thoughts. Anyway I have a TON of fun regardless of what the decision will be.

[Acacea]

• As a note to something mentioned earlier--there was no mention of having a wipe and the extras being that some people started with extra levels. Having that kind of thing in place (the majority starting at level 1 except for a special few) completely destroys the whole purpose of a full wipe. Likewise they should not start with extra stats--these are not the characters themselves, they are just people down the line. An inheritance of a title, a story, a responsibility, something of that sort sure, but not anything that gives them a mechanical edge from the start. Roleplay only and in most cases, likely to only even matter to the player in question.
  
  
• I agree with the splitting of starting cities.
• I also agree not to stretch the magic of the world to time portals and such... keep it simple.
• I disagree that NPCizing the "epics" should be the extras in question. You can do that anyway...and should. If they're a part of history, then let them be a part of history, regardless of options. This is advertised as a world that players can make a difference in; so much the better if a lot of history includes famous PCs in the future. Regardless of level.
• The so-called extras should be in place to avoid punishing the people who have been loyal...It seems like every other game has a system in place to reward loyalty and effort in players, why give them the short end of the stick, here? In said other places, they're mostly just super powers or something that would be silly for a roleplaying world, but the point remains that there is at least a nod to long-term sticking-around instead of a kick in the shin. :) Example.

In option number one, the full wipe, Joe #2342 can still create a character descended from Bob #2309. Why? Because it doesn't affect things all that much. Not that Bob doesn't matter to his friends or hasn't done things here and there, simply that if he has kids and they have kids and they have kids, there is not really all too much to inherit in the grand scheme of things, except that "my great great great grand-daddy was dragoncalled." Who cares? Who would not approve that? It's flavor for the player and does little one way or the other, go for it.

Anyone could do that EXCEPT anyone with any amount of notoriety. We would approve the descendents of people who have not impacted the world greatly, but not the ones who have... why? They have proven they have the maturity and role playing abilities to handle it, since they reached the status in the first place. They get no material or mechanical benefits from creating a character down the line, and it would be a new character and not merely the same again with the same role. It does not grant them the title of their forefathers, merely makes them a part of the line and gives them an inherited purpose and story. Some big shoes to fill (or not fill), or something.

Anyone can make up an inherited purpose and story, but the ones who have written them in events onto the history of the world can't play on theirs unless specifically given the option.

I think giving them said option offers a richer history and more flavor for the world. Which I am a big fan of.

[Dorax Windsmith]

I am for a total wipe as well for all the reasons that have been previously stated.  I like the idea of starting off fresh and developing new relationships in game while exploring a new world.  I also think that if anyone, not just those who reach a certain status/level, should be able to submit a story or some history about a NWN experience or character which could be used by the team (if they choose) to include in the handbook or create an NPC from.

I too will have fun regardless of whatever decision is finally made.  Thanks to the team in advance for all the hard work that will have to go into this transition.

[mixafix]

4,

[Berginyan]

Although it has been a rather long time since I've been in game, I would vote for 1 or 4 also.  The development of the new, old or next era leaves alot of openings.

Epic characters and their 'extras' could be just as 'simple' as a Ruin, Dungeon or Crypt in their family name.  Where did all the ones we have traversed in these lands come from anyway?  

Just ask the players themselves I'm sure they could come up with something suitable to match their chars.  Say maybe an epic written by a bard handed down through generations, the whole story only told by members of the family.  Maybe they will come up with a suitable demise for their chars themselves.  A prayer created by a priest that is added to their orders repitoire, a battle style created by a fighter of great skill. A smithing technique created by an epic blacksmith of notoriety, whose name only has to be put into a CNR recipe or two.  

Anyways just a couple of thoughts.

*Berg walks down a well worn path, holding his small sons hand* "And that over there," *he points at a small mountain in the distance* "and that mountain over there is the last resting place of a mighty dwarven adventurer, they say it is the smallest mountain in the range because a great explosion occured deep inside." *his sons eyes widen in wonder* "You see he caved in the mountain to save his friends from a terrible monster they had found deep within it...."

[Vyris]

Acacea - 7/8/2006  3:59 PM

• As a note to something mentioned earlier--there was no mention of having a wipe and the extras being that some people started with extra levels. Having that kind of thing in place (the majority starting at level 1 except for a special few) completely destroys the whole purpose of a full wipe. Likewise they should not start with extra stats--these are not the characters themselves, they are just people down the line. An inheritance of a title, a story, a responsibility, something of that sort sure, but not anything that gives them a mechanical edge from the start. Roleplay only and in most cases, likely to only even matter to the player in question.
  

What was proposed I believe was that characters above level 'X' might possibly be allowed to recreate thier characters, depending on the advancement of the timeline and whether it was feasable for a character to still be alive due to race and age etc. This would involve creating a character and having a DM assign XP to the point that releveling is allowed.

If I read it correctly this would also happen on a sliding scale, with those highest level winding up being the highest level rebuilds, and those at the cusp of what was allowed getting a minimal rebuild, anyone below level 'X' would have to start over.

My issue with this, to use my friend Rhizome as an example... if Rhizome were to suddenly be say... level 18, instead of whatever ungodly level he is now, he would be less 'Rhiz' and more a bad parody. Pick any character of epic levels, if you KNOW them IG I doubt you can imagine them at half power and still think of them the same.

Plus, as I stated, what happens to thier titles, and how do you deal with THOSE? Not to mention a LOT of the people who are epic level are also GM's. This isn't a coincidence, the people that are epic have contributed to the story of Layonara with thier game play, and that is recognised often as a big plus when they applied to be GM's, as is entirely as it should be. Those that contribute the most continue to contribute when given another avenue for contribution.

All that being said, if a big chunk of GM characters are the ones converted over and allowed to start at a higher level there will definately be calls of favoritism and resentment, however unfair those comments may be, my experience with human nature has taught me that those who are not given what they deem to be a 'fair shake' will undoubtable resent those who are given more. Regardless of the merits of the actions that are the cause of the reward.

To use myself as an example, Berdin is my favorite character, hands down. I love to play him, but he's only level 14. I've invested a lot of time and thought in Berdin's RP, the friendship he has with others, the skills and spells he's developed to stay within the Dogma of Vorax, his animosity toward that goat-herding, drow worshipping son of a maggot Daren, his ambitions within the church of Vorax, getting his enchanting and alchemy skills up to high levels, all that. Say level 14 were the cut-off, and I were offered a chance to make Berdin in the new version, but I could only make him level 5... well, thats kindof a slap in the face.

I'd rather have a Berdin statue out front of a temple of Vorax somewhere, and be able to write into the history books that at the end of his long and valient life he was made cannon of Mistone or something and leave it at that, then start anew.

Vyris

[Yllyrryon]

I would like to have a complete wipe (option 1).  Then if players who have characters that attain world leader status (or some high level) prior to the switch-over would like their nwn 2 character to obtain"something extra" from their previous character (by virtue of family or some other +well developed+ connection, as in option 4), they would have to complete a cdq whose difficulty level would be commensurate with whatever they sought to claim.

[Acacea]

Vyris, I am completely against people being started at different levels and I am sorry that I didn't make it clear that I was talking about option four, which is a complete and total character wipe with all new characters starting at the same level.

I was pointing out that the "extras" should therefore NOT be of mechanical benefit.

Yllyrryon: In my opinion that is still option four, as they still have the influence attached to the family. It should not come into play until they have worked a bit on it, but the extra is that it is available and worked into the character from the start, if you ask me. Since you assigned that to #1, I would just mention that it only reinforces how small of a thing that really is at the start--a matter of history and flavor.

[Vyris]

Acacea - 7/8/2006  5:49 PM

Vyris, I am completely against people being started at different levels and I am sorry that I didn't make it clear that I was talking about option four, which is a complete and total character wipe with all new characters starting at the same level.

I was pointing out that the "extras" should therefore NOT be of mechanical benefit.

Ahh. heh I misunderstood the thrust of your agruement, so, yeah, I think I pretty much agree with whatever Acacea said.


Vyris

[lonnarin]

Berdin needs to send Bjornigar's fat butt a letter saying when he's ready to hunt giants.  Found us a pair of Voraxian mining brothers and a Ketibjorn who need a good dwarven rampage to get the blood pumping.  I have but a simple goal really, just one... KILL GRANNOCH!!!  *laughs maniacally*

[Vyris]

lonnarin - 7/8/2006  7:02 PM

Berdin needs to send Bjornigar's fat butt a letter saying when he's ready to hunt giants.  Found us a pair of Voraxian mining brothers and a Ketibjorn who need a good dwarven rampage to get the blood pumping.  I have but a simple goal really, just one... KILL GRANNOCH!!!  *laughs maniacally*

In order to not hi-jack this thread I will PM you with plans for such a night out!

ROAR!!!

Vyris

[Lalaith Va'lash]

DMOE - 7/8/2006 6:44 AM   This may be a daft question but what is the rush to transfer to NWN2?
  If Layo waited until the expansion packs come out that do allow 20+ characters then there would be no need for any decisson. I mean Layo isn't looking at tranfering to NWN2 till around four months after it's released anyway by which point there will most likely be at least one expansion out.
  Those that wished to create new characters could and those with time invested in exisiting characters could transfer them.
  Also it would allow the whole team more time to play with and poke at NWN2 before it went 'live' on Layo so to speak as well as allowing more time for money to be raised to sort out the servers to run NWN2....Would give Obsidian chance to iron out the kinks too.
 

 hmm.. *smiles* I definately agree with this!
  and with what Minerva said. I'm pinching pennies as it is, it would be a decent amount of time before I could afford to buy a game with my budget, let alone the PC to power it.
  And do we know anything about its capabilities with Mac and Linux yet? I for one am all for Layo one lasting a bit longer- before Layo2 and NwN2 come along.

[Nook]

1 and 4 would be the best choices.  If your character had enough impact, then you can trace your new characters background to the old one.

Here's another problem with transfering a character...do you wipe any or all DT's? (Didn't see that in any other thread).  If your character is converted, how would you do the DT's?  Loose all or some or none of them?  Those with  9 would want to loose however many they could, yet those with few to none would see loosing any as unfair.
As was stated by others though, I'm quite happy with NWN 1 and Layo (budget won't allow an upgrade in the near future anyway).

Besides, imagine how much more RP'ing is going to happen if 4 is the choice...I know I would like for my new character to trace their family history back to my original character; "I am here in honor of 'insert character name here', and will follow in thier footsteps (or in some cases, clear their name)."

[GhostWhoWalks]

I like option 4.

[EdTheKet]

Some good points are being raised people, thanks. Keep on talking

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Option 4 for me.

Even though it pains me to abandon my characters I prefer to start with everyone at lvl 1. This ensures that I find people to adventure with and a new history/character development i initiated. Having a lvl 20 Kobal stand in Hlint giving advice to the newcomers and from time to time to go out alone on a trip is not something I would be looking forward to. Instead I would love to see Kobal as an NPC in the halls of the Crescent Moon & Shield beneath Mount Norand. Perhaps my new character will be his grandson or even further off. It would preserve some of the history and background of Kobal and the clans, which was written down and can be found in the libraries of the clans.

I am a fan of spawning in places that make sense. Elves in an elven settlement, dwarves beneath Norand of course , humans in Hlint, halflings in gryphon nest and drow in a stinking duergar dungeon where they are surrounded and most likly killed by illithids.


Let us start anew, but preserve the good things that make Layonara what it is.

[Pankoki]

Harlas Ravelkione - 7/9/2006  10:13 AM Let us start anew, but preserve the good things that make Layonara what it is.

 This pretty much summarizes my view of Layonara in the future.