Characters, NWN2 and thoughts

[Creighton]

I haven't been here all that long, but I think I can speak for other "short-timers" when I say that I've gotten pretty attached to my character.

However (and this is where some of those singing my praises probably stop to throw stones)  I favor option #1.

So many great points have been raised as to why this would be the most fair and equitable option that I won't rehash them in my post, but if you've read down this far you get the idea.

Some would leave in a fit of sadness because of the loss of a character that they may have 2+ years invested in.  I'd be willing to bet that those would also be the ones to come back once the shock wore off (after all, if they've been playing THAT long, they would have to be pretty loyal in the first place).

I loathe the idea of losing Creighton...although I don't have the time invested that some do, I still have developed a real bond with the character, and with other characters through him.  Still...I have no doubt that those players I spend most of my time with will more than likely be the same ones my characters wind up being friends with in Layo 2 (plus, there's the opportunity to make new friends; I might actually end up being friends with someone whose name I now only see listed as playing on the East Server...imagine that!).

As far as having a statue or monument or tavern or a new line of tennis shoes named after certain characters...I think that's great.  It would add continuity and a sense of nostalgia to the game for those who've been on Layo 1.  As far as being a descendant of your original Layo character...I have no issue with that either...so long as it gives no advantage that any schmoe getting a character approved would not have.  This game and those that make it possible have impressed me with their fairness and efforts to keep things balanced, and as much as I've tried to convince myself otherwise, option #1 seems the only true way to do that.

Besides, in the end, it's about the players...I, like many of you, have played D&D on the top of a table for many years...characters come and characters go...you may keep the Character Record Sheet, and every once in a blue moon you may blow the dust off of it and take them out for a spin, but the bottom line is that time moves on and you keep playing with a bunch of people that all enjoy having a good time together.

[dadunmir]

Voting for Option 1.

I absolutely love my character.  However, I think to remove all things that one might want to lump into acts of showing favoritism, the clean wipe is the most secure. (Besides that she is human. Depending on how long the current dark ages go for she may not be able to out-live the time period, heh )

The concept of an NPC role for certain characters I personally find appealing and I feel the same about links to characters of old (option 4).  Yet, the process by which it is determined what characters get such honors can always (and likely will) be called into question.  

I also believe that all should have the option of being part of a certian character's history.  Whether they are a relative several generations later or a current partner, provided they have the permission of the origenal character these roleplaying options should be permissable. (Just opinion)

Certain characters (mine included) have already left marks on the world and such events have been noted already.  Either through additions to timelines or the handbook or elsewhere, these PC's have been documented well.  If anything were to be carried over to NWN2 it should be that history not the character itself.  With the 20+ limitation, this just makes more sense to me than deleveled characters.

[Etinfall]

I like option 1.

Question: when you say extras, how about if the "extras" for players isn't with thier characters? Instead, maybe something in the game design itself. Like names of places. I am going to the Plenarius mountians, want to come? We can hunt for Rhizomes. Or hey barkeep, give me one enzo and a plate of venison. Well, maybe not that exactly, but you get my point?

Either way I will still support Layonara.

[ZeroVega]

I think the extras should be up to said Epic/World Leader characters to decide and the GMs to approve. Still, it has to fit in with RPed events. Can you immagine "The Coldfinger Inn"? I couldn't. Coldfinger Mannor perhaps, where the ghost of the long dead Necromancer, Rufus Coldfinger still haunts the halls. Or how about "Varka's Magical Herb and Tea Shoppe"? No... no, that wouldn't work. But something you know... dwarfy like. Needs to fit and I think it should be up to the players of the characters to submit them for approval if they want them in.

[Acacea]

I agree with that yes, but am not sure if that's really directly related... What I don't understand is that people are speaking of the "extras" right now as simply what will be done with future-dead characters incorporated into history. In my opinion, this should happen regardless--the events occurred; if people want a real-feeling world with a unique history with flavor, then pieces of its past should be included. That just seems like a given to me, regardless of wipe or timelines or anything. There would/should be remnants.

Past makes the present and all that, so I'd hope that effort would be made on all parts to help craft that future, instead of considering it an "extra special" feature that the history of the world is actually in place.

The extras are not, in my opinion, how the old characters are dealt with (like having a dungeon named after them or whatever), but instead how the NEW characters created by the same players, would be handled.

Full Wipe With Extras
Everyone will start a new character at lvl 1, however, those who left a mark on the world (i.e. successfully completed their Epic/WLDQ, or above a certain level) get something extra. Examples could be some kind of descent from the previous character (if the NWN2 campaign is in the future), note that this does not mean special powers or anything, just some added flavor.

(And Varka needs to be a dwarven summon like in his WL request! Too cool )

[Marswipp]

Option four, but with a twist: any player can have a character that is a decendent of one of their current characters, provided there are no non-racial benifits or pelalties applied to the new character, who may or may not know his/her family's past generations.

[DMOE]

Having watched this thread develop and seen some excellent points raised I do have to say I am in agreement that option 4 sounds best BUT I still don't see what the great rush is for Layo to do NWN2.
  Ok, we've only had two posts from people saying they would have trouble upgrading their systems in time for Layo's planned switch but I am sure there are more.  I'd hate to lose Minerva as a DM due to this or good RP'ers such as Lalaith simply due to finacial reasons.  I know for us it will involve replacement Graphics cards as well as two copies of the game and expansions...Might not sound alot but when every penny counts....
  So yeah, option 4 but with a thought to who we may lose not because they don't like the option but simply because money doesn't grow on trees!

[SuperMunch]

Too many replies for me to read so I'll just state my mind...

Option 4 but I think it will require a lot of work on those that approve characters as "characters that made their mark" is very ambiguous.  Let's take Matilda (my favorite example because I love eight-bit's characters) - she's not a world leader but I know there are a lot of characters that would follow them to hell and back.  Could eight-bit play Matilda's (and Freldo's ) decendant?

As for my part, I'll have to see what they did to the bard in NWN2, but I'd like to play another one, with less caffine and a smaller corn fixation.

And what DMOE said...  which I think is being largely ignored.

A new computer capable of running NWN2 isn't gonna be cheap - the system requirements for it, according to the guy preseting the game at E3 isn't ridiculously high, but if you want great quality stuff, you're gonna have to shell out some big bucks.  I think a lot of us aren't up to shelling out a lot of money on a new PC just because of a game.

On that note, about the switch being currently scheduled in January.  It's a good time frame but I wonder if a volunteer effort of this magnitude, no matter how dedicated the coders are, can rebuild a significant part of the world in just 5 months.

[Acacea]

I don't think it's being ignored, really. There is no absolute, set date for this, just an "it's going to be out and we're probably going to do it by x date that is a long ways into the future, and thus we need to know how to handle it." In fact, I don't think we can even know for certain that rebuilding Layo on NWN2 is even feasible until the tools are in the hands of the people developing it.

I'm certainly not rolling in it and don't know at all when this would happen, or if it would happen at all for even just myself, let alone for the whole server. I just interpreted the question as, "assuming all this goes well and we make the transition successfully, what are everyone's thoughts on how to handle the characters?"  

Preparation, and all that. I'd still like to have some idea of where we are ideally ending up, even if for some reason it doesn't happen quickly or ever.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Perhaps we will loose some players due to the hardware requirements of NWN2, at least for a time until they find a pot of gold or something.

But if we choose not to upgrade to NWN2 I think we will loose more players. If Layo stays NWN1 a lot of people will start migrating I think. Gameplay is more important than eyecandy - but don't underestimate the power of eyecandy.

[Dorganath]

Just to point out...
  Most people probably will not need a major upgrade to run NWN2 unless they want to experience it in all its visual glory.  At a minimum, it requires a video card capable of handling Shader Model 2.0. Shader Model 3.0 is needed for all the really cool looking stuff, or so that's the report.  I don't think the requirements have really been officially released yet, so it's all speculative at this point anyway.
  I also want to give an example of something.
  I played NWN on a 400MHz Pentum II with 384MB of RAM from the OC all the way through HotU, which states a minimum requirement of an 800MHz Pentium III, if I recall.  While I will admit freely that I wasn't playing with the highest possible visual settings, the one thing that did keep the game playable for me was the fact that I had invested in a video card upgrade.  So I guess my point is that the hardware needs may not be as bad as one might think at the moment.
  But the discussion of hardware requirements kind of gets off topic a bit.
  The point of this thread was to illustrate the thought process we're going through in trying to figure out how best to handle the transition to NWN2.  This post assumes that the transition will happen, though even now, we cannot say with any great certainty wheter or not we will convert Layonara to NWN2.  There's no great "rush", but at the same time, we want to be prepared in case we do.  Right now, there's a lot of if's associated with a transition to NWN2. Nothing at this point is pre-ordained. But to answer the general question of "why bother?" the answer is that NWN2, if it proves to be viable for our PW, should help us do some things that are currently impossible or a significantly difficult effort under NWN1...things that I think a lot of you would like to see.  But at this point, the question of "if" (and thereby "when") remains up in the air.
  So to try to steer this back onto topic, keep in mind Ed posted this to give you an idea of some of the things we consider for the transition to NWN2.  It wasn't really intended as a "vote" as such nor do we really need to get into a debate about the finer points at this time, though surely your input is welcomed.  Keep in mind also that these are not the only 4 options that would be considered, only the most prevalent at this time.  
  Feel free to make other reasonable suggestions (as other people have done) regarding the transition.

[Faldred]

I am somewhat hesitant to enter into this discussion, as I am, compared to many of the players here, still a newcomer to this world, and have no high-level characters that will suffer from a wipe.



That aside... the only reasonable options are a full wipe, or to reset all characters back to level 1.  Either case poses a logical (story) issue:

With a full wipe, what happened to the old characters?  There are ways around this, such as setting the time to far enough in the future that the old PCs would have all died off, but does that fit the story plans?  Alternatively, the disappearance of the Dragoncalled could be incorporated into the plot as either backstory to the new campaign or a mystery to be solved within it.

Resetting to level 1 begs the question of why the characters' knowledge, skills, and abilities have gone away.  While it's possible to have some catacylsmic event cause amnesia or some illness that makes the heros start over, it seems contrived, and starting over with the same character is not too much different from starting with a new character, except that they have a more detailed past -- which is in itself both a blessing and a curse; in any case, the charatcer could develop completely differently than before based on new choices.  Again, the loss of levels, abilities, et al., would be built into the campaign as backstory or a mystery to be solved.

As far as "extras" and whatnot... anything the preserves continuity should be allowed, as long as it doesn't cause any significant burden on the dev team or unfair advantages or disadvantages for players.  Epic (ok... "World Leader") characters have gotten to that position by doing epic things -- those should be reflected in the world in some fashion, even if it is only a statue or a story.  But it shouldn't be limited to just epics -- any person or group that has done something that would leave a lasting mark on the world should be able to submit an idea to the team that reflects that mark.  Maybe a trade association transcends the lives of its founders, and continues on as an NPC organization in the world.  A town could rename itself or build a statue to honor a hero that saved it.  Whatever it is, the only real questions are 1) is it reasonable for such an impact to still be felt "X" years down the road, and 2) is the requested impact reasonable to implement without affecting any planned plot lines or considerable development effort.

As for the players... those who have the time and energy (i.e., all of you insomniacs on at all hours of the day and night) will very likely be the leading characters in the new version, just from the ability to spend more time with their characters.  This means it will be somewhat the same group as exists today -- some won't make the switch (or have less time now than they did then) and there'll be new blood from those who have joined later in the server's lifetime.  Those who are timezone-limited will likely be playing with much the same players as before, even if the characters are different.  Heck, groups could form in advance and plan out their characters if they want to stay together as a group.

On a final note, though, as much as I'm lookin g forward to NWN2 and Layonara 3, it looks like I won't have the time to play much, if at all, once 2007 hits.  My wife and I are expecting our second AND THIRD children on or about Feb. 1 (taking into account that twins usually come at 37-38 weeks).  Any "free time", if I ever get any, will likely be spent sleeping.  

[darkstorme]

I'd like to re-emphasize the point that's been made several times before - why hurry?  Give the game designers (and beta-testers, of course) all the time they want to iron out the starting version of Layo2, while the old version's still running.  We're not going to lose that many people, given the sheer richness of experience offered by Layo, to the new flashy interface... and better to have solid code/design under our feet than risk initial scrambled bugfixes or stability problems.  Layo's quite content where it is, so a rush-out is hardly necessary.

[cbnicholson]

It looks like most people here want #4, with some story background granted to World leaders or Epics?  What makes Layo unique to me is the helpfulness of the players here, the creativity of the gms, and hard work the team members put into it.  That's not going to change is it?  (rhetorical question I hope the answer better be a resounding NO)  Wipe and start over is my 2 pence.

[Trace Nightwind]

I think number 4 is the best option as well, but I think there must be a tie to the past because of all the hard work and amazing characters who exist now.  I like NPC options, but I also like some sort of glamour from the past character's deeds.

[jjkolb]

I like Option 3. I've played one character in 17 months here. I'd hate to lose all that history and start all over. Plus if I had to create a new character, he'd be almost identical to Klaug. He's the character I want to play and enjoy playing. I wouldn't mind starting over at level 1, I just don't want to lose the character. I'm sure that a reason could be imagined why everyone is level 1 again.
  Let me throw another wrinkle in: If characters are allowed to transfer, would all of their lost soul strands transfer too? Seems unfair if a character with 9 is suddenly reset to 0.
  This will not be an easy choice and I don't envy L. Whatever choice he makes there will be rumblings.

[Chrys Ellis]

I've been watching this thread with interest, of course, as I primarily play one character here (Xiao Lin), and have been playing him for years now. I have some ideas on the subject, and some thoughts to share. First off, as many of you know, I stopped playing on Layo for about a year or so. My hiatus coincided with the start of V2, by coincidence only. My return to the server was sort of like coming to a whole new server, since so many changes had been made.
  Why do I mention this? Because when I came back with a high level character, there were many areas of the west server that I had no need to go to, so I effectively missed out on many changes. I finally did decide to explore many of these areas one day, but it was rather tedious, because nothing presented a challenge. This is what I feel would happen with NWN2 and a new Layo if we tried to start it with our old characters of various levels. I feel it would be best not just for the server, but for the player base, to let everyone discover the new lands from the ground up, struggling like everyone else just to survive a night outside the town gates.
  I do, however, have one idea that has not been presented here. Perhaps the new storyline could be written in a way that all the Dragoncalled are taken to an alternate plane or something at some point in time after Layo V2 ends. The heroes would be 'frozen', in some sense of the word. These characters would not be available to anyone at Layo V3 rollout time, but the plotline could be written so a major world event could 'free' this powerful group later on, perhaps when the world needed them most.
  The nice thing about this would be that the event can be put off until such time that Leanthar and the GM team feels it would not unbalance the player base. Say, when the first set of new characters reaches lvl 20. Granted, this could take a long time, but how cool would it be to see the old heroes make their return after such a long absence? By then, the expansions would surely be out giving access to epic levels.
  Even if it takes a year or two to reach this point in the new version, I think many players would be happy to know that their favorite characters might get the chance to live again. Just a thought, but I'd be happy if something like this was put into place. I'd get to play a new character for a long time, but wouldn't necessarily have to say goodbye to Xiao forever.

[Eight-Bit]

I believe that a total wipe is necessary. Just trust me on that one. Trust me. Word. However, to appeal to the people who want to continue with their current characters, the option of playing a decendent, however direct or indirect based upon the new timeline, should be allowed. I wouldn't mind Tilda having a daughter between the transition.
  EDIT - However, with the idea of children, you will basically have the same character with a different name, all of the former experiences, and none of the levels or abilities the former had. For example...
  Something obscure happens. Something big. Something a low level has no right to understand, yet...
  "Mother told me of this once; it's a (metagaming blah blah blah). To fix it we need to find the (metagaming blah blah blah), and place it in the Throne of (blah blah Metagame, metagame)."
  But, hey, we're all mature, good RPers. Even if some of us owe me fifteen bucks *shakes fist at ZV*, I think we can manage a full wipe. Some of us are even excited about it.
  The only trouble with a full wipe, is of course, people who powerlevel expecting it will give them some sort of standing as a character, other than simply being tough and hard to gank.
  I'm all over the place here. Just glass the server vault. We'll all get by just fine.
 
  Anyway, I got a new character app. all ready written.

[Thak]

Har! Talk about constructive thinking. I like very much what you presented Chrys.
Let me put another twist on the Idea. Assume that some heroes will indeed get sent to another plane or frozen in stasis by whatever plot idea fits. They are Legend to return to the world once need is dire. First I would like that those that wish to have this opportunity write up their characters Lives like the CD threads. Something compressed with their deeds etc. (No WLDQs need to be run or anything of that timeconsuming matter) but the players have to take a bit of time to "save" their characters by writing them into the Historybooks.
In V3 at a certain point these Characters can be freed. But instead of letting a horde of heroes loose on Layonara we could make a queast per Character to be freed. So you could gather your mates and say. Lets go free Xiao from the stasis bubble. So these WorldLeaders or Epic Heroes  would trickle back into the world and not go BAM! Here we all Are! Lets rock! :p
Also these Quests could be unique quests that can get started by NPC interaction at lvl 20 or so and would not necessarily need GM attendance. Of course if GMs run these "return to the plane" quests or whatever we could call them would be much the sweeter.
So I vote for everyone starting at LVL1 with that option for those that write their stories into the History of Layonara to be able to one day return.

[Guardian 452]

I vote we keep all the current players in little white and red balls that we hurl forth when needed.


[big]"Reventage!!!!... I CHOOSE YOU!!!"[/big]


but seriously...

A wipe is the way to go.... I am intreagued by the Frozen idea as well. (but im more than biast having a level 25 character that I have played since October 2003.