Cleaning Up Your Spawns

[Diamondedge]

I am not sure where else to post this, so I'll post it here and also in the Grievances forum. Because I'm grieving.  My dwarven miner, level 5, has been ambushed by many goblins in his history and career, but never so often as when he came to Hlint. Mining for a dwarf of the Sunderstone clan was always something of a difficulty, but dwarves are always prepared for the occassional goblin party.  HOWEVER!! What happens when something even tougher than this lone, level 5 copper miner comes along invisible and stirs up trouble, and promptly leaves after obtaining whatever he/she/it came for? He/she/it leaves behind a spawn so vile, so evil, so menacing, that lone, level 5 copper miners die.  This is the fourth time I've ventured into the red light caverns and lost an ox, fifteen to twenty minutes of mined copper and quite a few hairs that I've pulled out because someone of a significantly higher level went in and spawned the max level goblin spawns without cleaning them up. It is annoying when you're fighting something you're not meant to fight without significant backup, and frightening when your own level spawn seems to come to the aid of these other, tougher thugs.  It is depressing to time and time again travel to the depths of the vile, evil, menacing copper mines, killing my way down with skill, only to come across Oogash, goblin overlord and purveyor of all things unholy, mighty champion of the heathen goblin god.  Is there nothing that can be done about these sinister perpetrators that wake up things best left asleep, so that humble dwarven miners can live on to spit on drow as he comes across them? Or are such mining dwarves forever to die at the hands of some lunatic that's too lazy to clean up after himself?  I certainly hope I don't come across as whining, but you really must see that this kind of thing is very disheartening and quite sad, really, bordering strongly on pathos for poor, level 5 dwarven miners everywhere. Thank you for your time.  PS Now if you'll excuse me, I have a grave to battle my way to and get.

[Xerina]

Well I will say this I also mine in the red light mine, but I mine gems, and I am only level 6. I am also quite possibly the worst fighter in the game of D&D ever, even kobold runt with no weapons a bad head cold and was born blind, and deaf can easily beat me by sneezing in my general direction. If a butterfly lands on me it breaks bones.

That’s why I hire Klugger as a body guard, or pay him to gather 90% of my supplies, alas he does not gather gems, and so I do it, and often solo. If I am solo I do not clear goblins in rooms past the last gem deposit i.e. the room with the hut. Why well for one it’s all me and my pixie can do to clear the 4 or so goblins between me and my gem deposit. But I also know and understand Layo is not a solo game if Someone enters after me and spawns the goblins I have killed I die 100% of the time. It is impossible for me to kill them again, I have to clear my deposit and leave before they respawn. Has it happened, yes will it happen again? Yes. My basic feeling is that if you can't mine the area with random unwanted or untimed spawns don't. I know if a higher level enters the spawns are harder but that is a risk you take mining solo, it is also the only reason I even consider paying the price people want for crated weapons. I do allot of crafting with my bard, I know the time and effort I put into it. It is hard work paying Klugger I tell you.  

I pay not because you spent 30 minutes mining to get the ore to make my weapon ad 45 seconds at a crafting bench, but because I know you risked life and limb for 30 minutes. I don't pay Klugger because I can't swing an ax at a tree, I can easily take martial and learn the ax, but I pay Klugger because I don't want to die doing it. If Klugger dies getting me my wood do I expect to have to pay him more then I normally pay? (After laughing that he died to the orcs getting Hickory outside town) I pry would but I don’t really feel obligated it’s a set price 5 gold per hickory branch more for oak etc, why more? Is it farther? Not much it’s more because Klugger risks harder mobs and spawns to get my oak. I am paying Klugger partly for his time but mostly for the risk involved in going and getting me my supplies. If Klugger were cutting the same tree in town at the same distance he travels now I wouldn't pay him what I do. I would go get it my self.

At the same time I do not feel obligated to fight a mob I spawn in the goblin mines that spawn beyond the point I planed on going. My old server had a rule that if you spawned it you kill it due to lag issues, but they didn’t run a clean up script so if you spawned a mob crossing a zone it never despawned until someone killed it. And it took allot of fun out of the game clearing 100 green no money Minotaur every time I wanted to go south of town beyond the newbie area.  Couple that with the fact I was a Sorc and herding was a bannable offence that pretty much kept me in the north. It also made it take forever to get anywhere cleaning up every zone you travel thru.

I know you are thinking not every zone just the mine where you gather, but I have yet to see a single zone that does not have a resource in it most of which I gather when I pass thru. Gray Peaks maybe an exception as I can’t think of anything their, sure plants are faster and easier but wood takes time, so we have to despawn or clear the broken forest if we pass thru on the way to Fort V. Well Since I can’t kill the goblins what are my odds against the undead less then 0 so I guess I can’t go that way, can’t kill ogres or spiders in Sielwoods, so cant go that way, can’t kill lizards in swamp, so can’t go that way, grey peaks are out, so I guess I will sit in Hlint and not collect money to buy the ore you mined because I can’t leave town, because someone that wants to solo might be harvesting trees in those zones and die to the mobs that spawn when I skirt the edge and don’t argo them.  I don’t know very many people that clear the zones they go thru. Dying and losing an ox and the minerals sucks but we have all done it. Either doesn’t mine or worry about it, or go with friends. Klugger hires out as a body guard at very reasonable rates.

[Diamondedge]

It's not that, though; I don't mind it if you're actually going someplace, because I know we all have to. All my characters make a point of 'cleaning up after themselves' however, much to the annoyance of many party members.

It's when it's at the bottom of the mine and I'm fighting a bunch of goblin elites that I didn't spawn that I start to get annoyed. Why were people down there mining in the first place if they couldn't kill their own spawns? I can kill my own spawns, with ridiculous ease. I have a very easy time with it due to expertise feat and the magic helm of awesomeness. But when I come upon an area already spawned with a billion goblins, and another five spawn because of me, not even both the AC bonuses can save me.

Lag was an issue, but it wasn't a big one and I never blame things on lag since nine times out of ten lag doesn't matter; most people just can't control the hopping around and thus they whine about it. However, when you're facing off against 15 goblins with their 8 archer buddies, and you can't take on much more than 15 goblins in total, you're hardpressed to find good warrant not to complain about it.

I am not going to stop mining because of other peoples' laziness. I'm going to point out the error of their ways, how it is irresponsible and leads to the death of many a good, cranky old dwarf.

[vgn]

Some of this is timing and the way the spawns are triggered. A great example of this in the goblin caves is the area with the hut. When you first come to this room you trigger the spawn as you approach and you of course have to fight it. You then go down and do your business. On your way back, when you enter the room with the hut from below, you don't trigger the spawn, but if you spent any time below mining, you will trigger a spawn on your way out, part way down the hall. You won't even see you did this. No one attacks you and unless you back track for some reason, you won't know.
So if you are headed down into the mine and you go just after someone left (which happens a lot as we have a lot of copper miners) then you will not spawn the gobbos as someone else did and you will be faced as you said with the spawn created by someone else.
This happens in several areas of games, not just here. The thing to remember is the world is dynamic. One should never assume that just because you've managed an area alone once that you could do it again. Environments change either because the spawn levels were actually changed in an area, or because someone else is in the area or even because a GM is running something special.

Further, on the idea of cleaning spawns in general. To make a blanket statement like you should kill everything you see, that's just poor. I have a fighter character. He does kill pretty much anything he sees or spawns. All of my other characters though are not fighters or even fighter types. They get around the world alive by either hiding very well or using spells to cloak them. It's what balances the classes. When a spawn is triggered by a fighter, the solution is almost always fight and unless they are severely outmatched, that solution usually works. When a spawn is triggered by a rogue or a mage, fighting isn't necessarily the best solution and it is never the only solution. Often a different solution must be taken or certain death is at hand.

[General_Ski]

When low level, make a party, even when mining... Some places like Haven's Caves you have to make a party. Alone you will not survive long enought to mine... That's the best suggestion I can make... Most spawns you see are probably made by a party, not high levels. I do not see too many high levels in red light caves unless helping someone out or may be mining themselves... Note on lower levels goblins are much meaner than on higher ones. And so all the way up to level 7 or so and even then you will have problems down there alone. Also, they send reinforcements pretty fast, not giving you time enough to mine... Personally I do not bring oxes into mines. Gotta work up that muscle lad.

[Zhofe]

Put your ox in a safe, out of the way corner. It may take more time to get your ore back to the ox, but your ox is less likely to die.

[cptoad]

a bit of advice.. mine in pairs, if possible. if your a cleric, use a summons. the red light cave are fun because of the spawns they tend to wander. so you think your ox is save,but no  the gobbos just ate it and left all the metal. i think that those caves have taken more of my oxen than any others. Well maybe not now that i think of it the seilwood caves got a few dozen as well. have fun

happy mining

G