Cleric spells versus their Deities

[Polak76]

Greetings all.

I'm curious how people interpret this argument.

If a cleric follows a good or neutral God, should they be able to cast spells such as destruction, slay living, harm..etc?

I've seen clerics in my time following all manner of Deities from Aeridin to Toran, Rofirien etc, casting all of the above spells and then some.

My feeling is that a cleric prays to their Gods and through this divine faith, they are rewarded by acts of greatness such as magic, turning undead, inhuman strength etc.  Now would a cleric of Ilsare who see's some foes pray to their god asking for them to tap into the necromantic weave and destroy their enemies?  ((this is just a created example and not directed at anyone)).  I wouldn't think so.

Necromancy as we know also governs healing, I agree, however the destructive side of it I would have thought would only be utilised by the more evil inclined gods and their clerical disciples.

I simply feel that some people make clerics for power building and forget the RP aspect behind them.  You can't have the best of both worlds.

Anyway this is my opinion.  I'm interested in other views.  Feel free to scorn me.

Cheers,
Polak76

[Pseudonym]

Here is how I have handled such issues ... a copy of a letter sent by my priest of Aeridin to another character about another matter but the principle is the same I think:

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

I cannot make any grand claims to wisdom or great knowledge of the Life Giver over and above what you more than likely already possess. I can only offer you my humble opinion on your concerns, whether my opinion comes from a vantage of experience and wisdom or ignorance and lack of enlightenment - who can say?

All I can say, after battling with similar issues of faith myself, is that, to my mind, there are very few absolutes of right and wrong. Wrestling with questions such as you have posed, and questions of my own, often make me lose sight of why I was chosen by Aeridin to be his instrument in the first place. Maybe we should make use of xxxxxxxxxxx and maybe we should not? I would like to think that He is more than capable of seeing our motivations for choosing either course and He would then approve our choice with His blessing, or, forgive our choice, again with His blessing.

I believe you asking such a question means that your intention to do the will of Aeridin is pure and, in my opinion, it is THAT intention which is by far the more important thing.

With Love and Respect,
Valdemar Harredsunn

[Medieve]

I would disagree because pc clerics are more often than not the adventuring types. Any kind of cleric who is adventuring has some cause or a reason they are out there killing monsters.

[Pseudonym]

PS. Your post, valid question that it is, has pushed my birthday well wishes way down the list. I realise birthdays lose a little of their glitter after the age of 11 but, still, I had been enjoying the attention ...

[Dorganath]

My personal opinion here....
  It should be an IC decision to cast one spell or the other.
  Even good clerics bring the might of their deities against their foes. Good deities are not above destroying the evil opposition, they just tend to be nicer about it.
  I would personally rather what spells one casts be a matter of RP than hard and fast rules, or things enforced by code. An Aeridinite cleric casting Animate Dead should not happen, yet if it does, there should be IC consequences. Due to recent changes, they shouldn't be casting spells from the Transmutation school either...but again, such things should be enforced IC.
  Lucindite clerics, who follow a Good goddess, would not even consider the thought of restricting magical forms, for simple reasons of dogma.
  I'm not sure here if the question by the original poster is one of enforcement through mechanics or just a call for people to spend some time considering the RP aspect of their spell choices. If the latter, then I agree to an extent, though I see nothing inherently wrong with a Good cleric casting Harm on an Evil enemy.

[Acacea]

Clerics of some deities should not really be using some spells. It's not a matter of killing vs not killing, nor even necessarily about alignment, though that may play into the more 'evil' spells. All clerics are granted forms of self-defense, it is merely the manner in which self is protected. There is no rule list because it's a common sense thing. The dogmas are available for all to read and are mandatory for characters with divine influences. We can't change what spells a cleric gets based on deity, though how I have wished it otherwise. So everyone will get all of the standard spells plus domain bonuses (which also should ideally differ between deities but don't), and use the common sense to think if Aeridin is really big on Animate Dead or Az'atta on Poison.


Regarding only evil gods granting the more 'evil' spells, I think the cases where such restrictions fall under the "absolutely not" category are a lot fewer than the "yeah right, you'd better have a REALLY good reason" category. Mechanically an Aeridinite's Animate Dead is just as good as a Corathite's, but if things were more easily adjusted you'd have to deal with cross-dogma actions being weaker than those that do it as a core of their faith, like the difference in class skills and cross-class skills.

So you could do it--but could you do it well? That's a different story, even if mechanics say otherwise.

Edit-- *Rolls eyes and waves at Dorg* yeah...delayed typing.

[Talan Va'lash]

Polak76 - 11/20/2006  6:38 PM
Necromancy as we know also governs healing,

As of D&D 3.0 all healing spells are conjuration, no longer necromancy.

Yeah, I don't like it either, as it takes almost all the ambiguity of of necromancy but those are the rules we're going by currently.

[Dezza]

I have to agree with Acacea that clerics casting spells related to their diety as opposed to those whom they oppose is truly an RP and common sense thing.

Is it good RP to see an Aeridinite creating undead because you must fight fire with fire? No I dont think that in the Aeridin dogma this stands up to scutiny nor is it common sense. An Aeridinite cleric casting undeath to death to destroy the enemy is good RP and common sense however.

Likewise a cleric of Toran calling on necromatic powers to cast destruction on their enemies is a tough RP challenge and doesnt really make RP sense. Sure in terms of pure combat it makes sense..destruction is a powerful spell so if you were playing a cleric simply fo the benefits of playing a cleric then fire away, but RP and commons sense would say that is not that likely to occur.

A cleric of Dorand however might use a variety of magics including spells such as destruction but even so may shun use of spells such as create undead, animate dead also simply for the negative aspect of these types of spells.

Personally I have not met many clerics on Layo that do not think about the aspect of their diety when selecting spells. occassionaly I see people using spells simply for the combat advantage over RP or common sense but thankfully these incidences have been few and far between. I think anyone regulalry engaging in actions not akin to their diety will very quickly be noticed and have RP repurcussions.

[Polak76]

Cool.

So basically people feel the same way about it as I do.  My intention in creating this was strictly for the RP aspect and nothing else.  I only hope people stick to what is IC and not what is more powerful.  Heh, Even when my old character was near death, Chanda still wouldn't heal me, nor would I ask.  It's simply the way it is and thats what makes it rich.

[Polak76]

oh, by the way, Happy Bday Pseudo.  Sorry about stealing your thunder.!!

[EdTheKet]

There is no rule list because it's a common sense thing. The dogmas are available for all to read and are mandatory for characters with divine influences. We can't change what spells a cleric gets based on deity, though how I have wished it otherwise. So everyone will get all of the standard spells plus domain bonuses (which also should ideally differ between deities but don't), and use the common sense to think if Aeridin is really big on Animate Dead or Az'atta on Poison.

Agreed.

[Vyris]

Berdin is a battle priest of Vorax, as such he takes it upon himself to not use spells that outright kill things, since as far as his dogma is concerned Berdin feels that Vorax would look less favorably upon him for not engaging the enemy in martial combat. At the very least not using his spells to help turn the tide of the battle in a martial way, instead outright slaying of an enemy via magical/divine means (instant death spells, not something you happen to flame-strike to death for example) Nor will he cast spells that manipulate negative energy or undead. Berdin feels that if he is not in the melee his place is to dictate the course of the battle by improving his comrades ability to fight effectively, or weakening enemies with Vorax's divine wrath before throwing himself into the battle.


Vyris