Community agreement on the treatment of "monstrous" races

[darkstorme]

Witch Hunter - 3/3/2007  1:33 AM

A situation calling for it is a threat on your life

I don't think that's necessarily true.  A CN character, all other things being equal (that is, if s/he is unlikely to get arrested for murder for doing so), would be just as likely to kill someone for an insult as to ignore it.  If they decide to take it out on the person, a beating may suffice, or they may simply want them dead.  It would take a pretty severe insult, but even so, I think it's a reasonable approach.

LN, not so much, nor TN - both lean more towards good than evil, and it's usually not lawful to kill someone for words, or even for threats, if they're not backed up.  If a Lawful Neutral character saw an opponent as a threat to the law or to his life and it was within his jurisdiction, however... *slice*.

The good array: likely not.  Even if the character were a moderate threat to their own life, the possibility of redemption usually outweighs pragmatism.  Only if they are absolutely convinced that killing the miscreant is the only thing that will stop them will they do so... but if they are so convinced... well, I'll let Terry Pratchett round this one off:

“If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power... they will talk, they will gloat. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.” -- Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms

[blfarris]

Pen,

You are asking people on the forums their opinions, which is good, but one issue is there are MANY who do not even visit the forums.

Yes MANY !!!!

Not sure you can come to a solution by the forums ...

... just my 2 cents

[Witch Hunter]

Anyone on Layo has to go on the fourms at least once

[Kindo]

If you do not exercise your right to vote, you have no right to complain either. Everyone is made aware of the forums and the important role it plays in this community, so if you do not want to be part of decisions and what not, then that's fine, but then you forfeit your right to scream about it, as well.
  As for this... I am not very supporting of monstrous races to be tolerated in establishments, big or small. There can always be a few exceptions, but keep in mind that Drow, for example, are considered extremely evil, with their nightly raids and destruction of cities and what not. Do you think surfacers are simply going to forget that and ignore the Drow sitting out in broad daylight, in the middle of a city, pretending that nothing is out of the ordinary? Of course not. Asking "normal races" to start accepting the dark and evil that is Drow, will shake the very foundations of the race. The presence of Drow should be very rare, and the few exceptions should be very well thought-out and professionally role-played. You can't just be a random Drow that has been exiled, and still behave like a super-arrogant, master of all living. Don't you realize that Drow can also experience trauma? If forced to live on the surface, scorned by their homeworld and houses... these are all extremely dishonoring things to happen to a Drow. One who has experienced such things is surely not going to pretend he or she is still some kind of ruler of the Underdark. Sure, arrogance can still be there and sure, evil is also well and good, but you are no longer part of a mighty house or serve some powerful Matriarch. You are a no-body in your people's eyes, and you are more often than not hated by everyone on the surface. This must all be taken into your character, developed and role-played properly. (I am sure I am not the only one who has played Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II. There you have an exiled, very believable Drow character, who maintains arrogance, evil, and scorn for surface-dwellers, but is still evidently tormented by the dishonor she received by running away from her home.)
  This goes for both Drow, and those who play "protectors of the Drow" as well. It must be role-played, and not everyone can without hesitation start harboring one of the ultra-evil people, one of the people who has raided the surface many times, killing anyone in their way, destroying cities. Read the description and historical events of the Drow in the Handbook, and you'll see. We can't unquestioningly defend the presence of a Drow, disregarding every piece of history we have learned about them. Before long, we'll have more elven Druids who transforms into Red Dragons in order to protect a Drow.
  The reson for a Drow to be on the surface has to be very special, almost unique, and it must be role-played properly. It is a very, very difficult role to play. It's not just "I'm dark and cool now, I hate everyone and can behave like a jerk." Nor can we (the surface-dwellers) start accepting them into our homes, pretending that nothing is wrong.
  I vote strictly for scorn. The city officials should not take kindly on the presence of Drow (or other monstrous races). If you choose to play such a race, you must be prepared to face the consequences of doing so. One of those consequences is limited access to crafting halls and what not, and whenever you visit a city, you must wear some sort of disguise. You chose to play Drow, and now you have to live with it. We can't change the entire world's view on your evil race, just because you want to do some crafting. If you want to be considered "one of us", that has to come gradually, in some sort of major role-playing events, that will ultimately earn the trust of a whole community. Needless to say, this is near impossible.

[Witch Hunter]

I think i'm going to stop baking pies for them! hmph... nightly raids and baby eating! who knew!

[lonnarin]

Orcs should get either pies or death.  Or maybe pies with death baked into them.  Or death that tastes great and loaded with high-carb berry preserves like a pie.  In any case, all death should be served in 6 equally perportionate servings.

[Kindo]

What happened to this? I realize it's not an official survey, but we do need some final word on how we should treat monstrous races that lumber about town like they own the place.

[Fatherchaos]

Treat them however your character would IC.

[Kindo]

So attacking a giant/ogre that lumbers through town is alright? Because that's pretty much what one or two of my characters would do, but seeing how these monsters are actually Player Characters, I suppose it's not that easy. I just don't see why they think it's alright for them to run around town like some do.

[MJZ]

I have to say that to my experience, it's been the reaction of other players to the monstrous race that was the problem. I've seen several characters go out of their way to conceal interesting genetics, namely tieflings and dark elves. Monstrous races can't exactly hide their appearances, of course, but I've still seen them very well handled.

But I can't say the same for the reactions of "normal" PCs! Today there was I do believe a half-giant in Port Hempstead, but he had the appearance of an ogre. My character ran away in fear to warn others, but from five others not a single one took a defensive stance. Everyone accepted the creature on sight, no questions asked, even defended its rights, offered it food, and assistance with a quest. Now, I don't mean to offend anyone, but I highly doubt that all of those people had legitimate role-play reasons for accepting a tromping monster on sight and befriending it within 10 seconds. What really gets me is the fact that they were in all likelihood killing ogres and giants outside Krandor or in caves or what have you very shortly prior to having spotted it.

This is painful. I cannot see how one can justify raiding and slaughtering a clan of giants or ogres to basically steal their minerals and treasure for yourself one minute, and hug the friendly monster in Port Hempstead the next. This smells of bad RP to me. If that creature had a red sword cursor over it, even if it was in town, I am positive half a dozen PCs would run over in aggression, not in love.

Now, I understand that Port Hempstead is home of the craft hall and such, I have seen half-giants in Port Hempstead before handled well. What concerns me is the apparent unrealism with which PCs are behaving. The "thou shalt not judge" attitude irks me most when coming from random fighters, rogues etc, which it most often does - because I see these fellows tearing into ogres, etc everyday. How possibly can every single character think it's fine to kill entire clans for natural resources, but oh dear, don't you dare point your finger at a PC orc and gasp aloud, that's racism!

I'm sorry for the abrasiveness of this post, but I can't help it. Every situation is different, I don't mean to say this always happens, or something like that. But I haven't been here too long, and I've seen it on more than one occasion. It the monstrous PC in question is surrounded by a group of five friends, I can see how one would assume it's part of a mercenary group and decide it's better to avoid pointing fingers or gasping. If one has had previous good experience with monstrous races, again, I understand.

I understand if some PCs happen to have a code, creed or belief about equal treatment. But I have thus far seen one PC other than myself react in a way other than leaping to the monstrous PC's defense. That's too much, really. What I saw today in Hempstead was just silly - this half-giant made 5 friends just by wandering through the streets - wish "normal" characters received so much positive attention.

I know I sound accusatory, but this is meant to be a complaint. I strongly believe in good RP, just because you know your cursor isn't hostile isn't reason enough to be incredibly protective and friendly, circumstances being what they are.

In fact, I didn't even see PCs raise eyebrows, the reaction was what could only be described as nonchalant. Oh, a monstrous humanoid. Hello, there.

C'mon guys, let's put some effort into it! Just jamming in a few lines like *he reaches for his sword hilt* Come no further! - would make me one happy pappy. It's such a let down when no one even puts thought into their reactions towards a monstrous PC, but behave as though they were seeing a middle-aged white human male.

[feniox]

So attacking a giant/ogre that lumbers through town is alright? Because that's pretty much what one or two of my characters would do, but seeing how these monsters are actually Player Characters, I suppose it's not that easy. I just don't see why they think it's alright for them to run around town like some do.

The problem is that PCs often rely on the towns and access to the shops, etc. Whilst it's not ideal for monstrous characters to run through the town, excluding them would only really act to isolate those players even more. Sure, this is part of being a monster, but consistent solitude in a RP world isnt much fun.

Personally though, with my monstrous characters, I try to take a stealthy route through town. Not by sneaking, just by going down the back alleys and generally keeping out of people's way until I get to where I need to go. I don't really see that there's much alternative in those occasions when we absolutely have to venture into or through towns.

Having said that, I don't think any player playing a monster race has room to complain for being hassled, especially in the towns. This is the key point. My character is a goblin, he knows he shouldnt be in the towns, he just doesn't always have a choice, he is always expecting to be hassled in them. I expect (and encourage) people to confront me when they see me, and I know I would probably do the same in reverse with my Dwarf character.

[orth]

Please do note that these are half giants and half ogres...

[Gunther]

I may be mistaken here, but I seem to recall that halfgiants could be taken for very large human barbarians, as per the race guidelines.  I believe that they are somewhat accepted in either monstrous societies or 'good' societies.  So lets leave the halfgiants out of the category/race of monstrous folk, unless your character has some means of discerning what they are and also has a serious hatred for halfgiants.

[feniox]

Please do note that these are half giants and half ogres...

Was that in reference to the sneaking thing?

I was talking in general terms, simply stating how I deal with it, rather than making a suggestion for how other people should conduct themselves.

[Pen N Popper]

My original poll from the V2 forums got whacked, but the overwhelming concensus was that Port Hempstead was a non-monstrous town.  However...

[INDENT]"C'mon guys, let's put some effort into it!"
[/INDENT]
That's my biggest problem.  It's hard putting effort into it all alone.  In fact, point #3 in my original post was my way of saying that.  When a drow approaches the group and only one of the six others react negatively, three get defensive on the side of the drow, and the other two don't care, it gets tiring.  In the end, it's just not worth it if both sides don't come to an agreement and stick to it.  I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that this is just the way it is.

The halfgiant you saw earlier?  My PC hired him to carry clay and treated him as not much better than a talking oxen.

Need an IC excuse not to react?  How about this:  You see a lone drow/giant/ogre/orc in town.  Anywhere else, you'd slice him up with the wide array of armaments you wear and carry.  Do you feel threatened when one comes into town?  Unlikely, what harm could just one do?  If they raise yours or anyone else's hackles it's probably a given they're going to be dead before their next breath.  (There's no way to know, of course, that that halfgiant you are scoffing at is a level 25 weaponmaster with the scythe that would spend more time cleaning you off his boots than killing you.)

My new philosophy:  Treat monstrous races as weak loners and outcasts.  Obviously they weren't strong enough to thrive in their own cultures.

What do you think?

[orth]

Was that in reference to the sneaking thing?

I was talking in general terms, simply stating how I deal with it, rather than making a suggestion for how other people should conduct themselves.

No, sorry, that was to MJZ

[hawklen]

I pretty much given up on this. Unconcealed drow and orcs, half-orcs. I always get ganged up on.

[Acacea]

Right yeah, and half-orcs are almost common compared to, say, drow shopping at a Deliarite temple You might see them doing manual labor working the docks in Hempstead or something...the half-orcs, that is...

As mentioned previously, no one trusts anyone in Vehl, which is actually sort of a step up for drow, since it brings everyone down with them. The Rofireinites might freak out, but let's face it, they are severely outnumbered there and are limited in their responses, forcing them to pick their battles to avoid losing what presence they have there. Most, if not all alliances are temporary to serve one's own purposes, and anyone saying "don't trust him, he's a drow," would likely be met with a sullen stare and a "who says I trust either of you?"

There is 'rumored' to be an entrance to the Deep near Vehl, and many people likely go about their business with some attempt at concealing their faces. Perhaps the slender man in the shadows of the tavern is actually a drow. Would anyone ask? I doubt it. Drawing attention to others draws attention to yourself. Perhaps you even had your hood off when trying to enter the city and had a guard spit on you and tell you that they didn't need your kind around...and then opened the gate when you slipped him some coin.

The town isn't a freak-fest "I'm so happy and tolerant of everyone because I see the good in all living souls!" but rather just don't ask and don't tell...unless the pay is good.

I would say that of course Hempstead is far less tolerant of exposed evil races, not because they're tyrannical oppressors, but rather the opposite. The last time the city was ruined was a long time ago sure, but everyone living there knows it was to dragons and dark elves. It's a name to bring fear to children and another punch in the stomach to the hope of the downtrodden trying to keep their heads up, you can't protect them if you can't even try to keep anything out. BUT it's a very populated city, despite that it can't be shown with crowds of NPCs - this is probably the busiest port city in the world. If something is in a group of travelers, concealed, it seems likely that he could slip through Hempstead.

That's why I changed my original support of having NPCs react to certain subraces a long while ago. I don't want metagaming NPCs, I hate the hostesses already!

If such a reaction was implemented there, I would prefer it check for having armor and a helmet equipped...I realize that many wear the equivalent to a loincloth and it's not perfect, but it would bug me if someone were in giant bulky clothes and a helmet, and were chased out. Like I said in another thread...if they bother to try, then I'm happy, because it's more than I usually see. Everyone else gets run out of the more civilized town, or at the very least gets merchants refusing to sell to them.

In NPC terms, I would expect something harsher, if only because of the panic of mobs. I think it would depend on how quickly the guards could get there...and I would also think that there is a shortage, else surely someone more experienced than Trent would have the wheel, no matter how optimistic he is. Fact is, look at the times... people can barely protect themselves, let alone anyone else. He was probably chosen as much because there were few others capable as the fact he's good for people to look to in trouble.

[MJZ]

I may be mistaken here, but I seem to recall that halfgiants could be taken for very large human barbarians, as per the race guidelines.

Yep, I do agree that you can easily mistake half-giants for very large humans, my character Ariel has done this three times, in fact. But when a PC half-giant still has the appearance of an ogre and doesn't let the other players know that s/he is a half-giant and not a half-ogre, I do wonder why other PCs react in such a friendly way.

I didn't know half-giants were any more accepted than half-ogres or half-orcs, according to the lore. Interesting.

To Pen N Popper - It's especially common with dark elves, isn't it. I was even witness to a druid shapeshifting into a red dragon in defense of a dark elf... O.o

But you sound so drained - I don't want to accept that the majority adventurers will ferociously defend unknown members of monstrous races and dark elves, and most of the rest will shrug their shoulders at them. That's terrible! Can't people see that it's very unrealistic most of the time to take such a defensive and friendly stance?


Edit: Acacea's mention of monstrous-races traveling in groups of others, or wearing armor and helms coincides with my own opinions. It's unlikely to have confrontations under such circumstances, same goes from what I've experienced and heard about Fort Vehl.

But I'm not talking about slipping around, I'm talking about running through the city with very little clothing, alone. And while I do know how tough times are, wouldn't that make people all the more desirous to protect their guilds and homes, which are veritable storehouses of treasure and good food? And Fort Hempstead doesn't look like a weak town barely eking by to me - it's surrounded by enormous walls, for one thing. I just don't want to be the only one reacting to a half-ogre or an orc or a drow darting through town, and I certainly don't want to have nearly every other PC in the vicinity leaping down my throat for doing it.

[Tanman]

That point still refers to such races as drow and orcs.

The only Drow that I see people actually RP properly is to Daralith. I know that there is more, but they are there before my time.

The problem is two fold. People not Rp to the drow properly. The thing is that in the past Drow/monster creatures seem to have a tendency where they were friendly, Lawful Good Nuetral Good, so they were friendly, and the community accepted them.

Now that we have the new rules about alignments once people catch on that Drow/orcs etc are kanaiving and plotting then I am pretty sure that the situation will change. No one likes to be backstabbed/threatened and that is what Drow/Orc do.

Its a two way effort.

Was that in reference to the sneaking thing?

I was talking in general terms, simply stating how I deal with it, rather than making a suggestion for how other people should conduct themselves.