Community agreement on the treatment of "monstrous" races

[Pen N Popper]

I'd like to suggest that we, the community, come to an agreement on the attitude towards PCs of various races in the two towns Hempstead and Vehl. I do this so that:
[list=1]

• Players of the races know what to expect.
• Players know that they have permission to react appropriately to these races.
• Players do not try to stick up for these races when others are trying to RP appropriately.

Vote for all you feel appropriate.  I do make the assumption that Vehl is a rough and tumble type of place (wild west sort of town).

[Drizzlin]

I haven't found a crafting hall in Vehl, of course I didn't spend a ton of time there. Is there even a crafting hall yet? If there isn't, then hempsted is still the place to be and should be 100% open to all.

[Falonthas]

if we have the place put in as the start
any of the less tolerated or hated races who may come around should be shunned from the pretty world

but those who can disguise and pass as such should be able to have the chance to try
as such im sure both places will have crafting setups

[Pen N Popper]

Posted by Fatherchaos in the other obsolete thread
[INDENT]  Pen, while I see the interest in doing this research, I thought this information is already outlined under the races thread? E.g. Tieflings are distrusted by all, half-giants are generally welcome in both societies, etc. I personally feel that this should be an entirely IC situation, unless certain races are banned from some cities (e.g. elves from bloody gate, just an example).      I will say that I'm a bit taken aback by this comment: Players do not try to stick up for these races when others are trying to RP appropriately.   I'm not certain if you are distinguising the players behind the character going OOC to say lay off, or the Character in front of the player defending/attacking the person in question. Please keep in mind that Players will IC defend those they have come to trust/respect/etc. I point this out because this comment almost feels as some sort of RP wall to erect during a pickfork and torch session.      To paraphrase an earlier post, we need to remember that there is a player behind the character who wants to have fun. Hopefully we can keep the 'hatred' to a civil rp manner. In some cases I've even gone so far as to politely inform players ahead of time, to clear the air, that my own character is particularly rude and xenophobic, just so they know/agree ahead of time that the interaction is all in good fun. This has always met with great results.
[/INDENT]  My point with #3 is that I have seen very often where a PC reacts negatively and completely IC to a monstrous race in Hlint. Before long, though, a bunch of other PCs come to the aid of the monster. Sometimes it's good to just have some room to RP without all the goody-goodies ganging up.
  My opinion.

[EdTheKet]

I would suggest to wait a small bit until the new descriptions of Port Hempstead and Fort Vehl have been finalized.

[Rowana]

Making policy on how a PC aught to react to a certian kind of character or creature character is a bit on the 'rulesy' side of things. Some PCs have reason to trust certain 'monstrous' races even over so called 'goodie' races. Putting a limit on how one should RP is rather unfair, in my humble opinion.
 
  ~row

[Pen N Popper]

I understand that race relations are outlined in numerous places. However, when someone makes a new PC of type X and then walks into a town that shuns them that smacks of OOC and disregard for all the literature provided.
  I am hoping that as a community we can all come to an OOC agreement of what is and is not appropriate behavior. In other words, if X are not trusted in a town then there should be no reason why X should openly be prancing about. Even a long-time PC would be distrusted by the general populace and all new PCs. Yes, they may choose to wear clothing that their friends would recognize but still be hooded.

[Praylor Falcus]

I agree with Rowana, this is rp and if i have to go OOC to a fourm or printed list to see how my character  "MUST" react to a pink wemic with a pony tail , then i am not rp'ing i am following the masses. I am here for the diversity of people and play , the only limits i accept are those of the staffs server rules and while i try to follow them , i have at times unwittingly broke them, but when confronted i try to adjust my play to them, to have others pc's start to add rules for play is not something i will do, it's the rebel in me sorry

[Nehetsrev]

Just an idea here, but could town-guard type NPC's be scripted to watch for certain races/sub-races and give a one-liner when they see them that makes them feel welcome or un-welcome as the case may be?  That might also help people to know what towns the general populace will welcome them in and what towns won't.

[Gulnyr]

I think people are missing the point that our characters, the PCs, are a very small percentage of the people in any given town.  Even if every PC sitting in, say, Hempstead at a given time is comfortable with a particular Drow PC there, the vast majority of the populous is still going to react negatively toward that Drow, and might even be unpleasant toward the "Drow lovers."

Also, I don't believe Pen N Popper is trying to get a strangle hold on anyone's RP.  I think he's just trying to point out that characters of some races should generally be shunned and treated poorly by characters of other races.  That goes for Drow and Half Orcs and even Aasimar.  I think he's just trying to get some sort of consensus amoung the community about how we, in general, should play out our reactions between certain races.

Look, if the point of two starting areas wasn't to cause some character-to-character strife and tension, why are there two starting areas?  We could have just kept one starting area and had everyone continue to be buddies.  There are two starting areas so we don't all 'grow up' together, and so that characters have a place to go congregate and 'belong' when they are driven out of other towns where they aren't welcome.  This is no longer the war against Bloodstone, and our characters don't all have to come together as one.  There are now and will be more reasons for tensions and divisions between characters, and there is no longer any external reason for most characters to harbor characters of races their race abhors.  Things are going to be ugly, and if you want your character to try to be friendly with everyone, it's time to sumbit a TN Human and abandon your Drow, Half Giants, Aasimar, and Paladins.

[Dorganath]

The thing is, there is no "right" way to RP one's reaction to monster races. There are, however, "norms" which will likely be followed by most of the population.
  By the same token, there is no "right" way to RP playing a monster race, but again, there are norms. These norms are spelled out pretty well in the racial profile of the various subraces.
  For the most part, these norms should be followed, but that's not going to cover all cases.
  In the previous campaign, there was the concept of all PCs being "Dragoncalled"...which was a fancy way of saying some aged and wise being saw something exceptional in these individuals, monster races as well as your garden-variety elves, humans, etc. This basically meant that yeah...they were special somehow, not typical of their race or perhaps possessing some quality that would aid in the fight against Bloodstone.
  That idea should no longer exist.
  There may or may not be a common theme any longer. No common cause, no common fight to overcome a terrible enemy. Now, in the Dark Ages, there is only one real, common goal...
  Survival.
  And in that survival, people tend to band together with those who are like them. Socially speaking, there should be a lot more stratification of races, classes, etc. People will band together into small groups and fight fiercely to protect what little they have against all potential threats. Bandits and robbers would become more common along the roads as well as the darker parts of the cities and towns.
  Now let's look at the starting towns for just a moment...
  I would say that monster races wouldn't really be "trusted" in either place. Sure, perhaps there are some exceptions based on words of deeds, long-term recognition of some individual or the other, but in general, if 3 drow walked into town openly, the general population should probably think it was some kind of attack.
  Port Hempstead has been attacked more than once over its history by Drow, and that city surely has a long memory.
  Fort Vehl is a seedy place, filled with all sorts of corruption, greed and the cast-offs of society. Would a drow be trusted there? heck no! NOBODY should be trusted there. Three well-armed humans walking into town would probably raise some eyebrows, cause shutters to be closed, etc. The town guard would watch them very closely, especially if they were unknown.
  Just like they would in Port Hempstead.
  Remember the times in which the people of Layonara are living. This is not the era of the Draoncalled. This is not 21st century Earth with its norms of social tolerance. This is a bad, bad time for Layonara. That, above all else, should heavily influence one individual's reaction to another.

[Praylor Falcus]

Toranite paladin code #6 All life is sacred. Raping, pillaging, and other crimesof war are strictly forbidden to those in Torans service. Killing should be an act of last resort. Honor your enemies, reguardless of thier race, even in defeat.


  As this disscussion is mearly the beginings of PVP open season on drow and other non accepted races, and vicea versa, is the above code to be disreguarded ?

 Will players which value life and are not so narrowminded as to judge one by race or skin color, have a means to have such vile examples of thier own races put in jail or executed for open unwarrented murder of another. Tis a can of worms we have not solved in real life and as such to open this to all to rp some repressed real life emotions with no repercussions is subjecting the community to activities we do should consider if we are truly a family server.

  Sad a middle aged white guy from Alabama has to be the one to bring this up, but having seen it in real life, i can sense the motives and tone of speech however thinly vieled to be more that just a rp question.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I think that may be taking it a little bit far, Praylor. The issue here is most certainly not racism in our world, where we're all more or less the same, with minor cultural differences that loosely correlate to different skin tones and nationalities...

The issue here is that there are different species with different cultural norms living in the same world, many of whom have had bitter hatred brewed between them for centuries. Our modern minds can't really grasp the idea of a millenia-old blood feud between Elves and Drow... The longest of our conflicts has lasted the past several hundred years.

I suppose I may be in a minority, being able to recognize the complete separation of the game world and the real world... I often find myself confused by the reasonings of others for various things, because they're influenced by RL. I find that I can't really play if I'm too embroiled in some RL emotion, and that my RP really suffers if I deviate for a second from the idea that Layonara is a completely separate place, with people who live and breathe in its imaginary confines.

When I say "death to darkies!", the racial persecution so rampant in my part of North America never even enters my mind... All that phrase brings up is images of ebon-skinned elves slinking through the shadows with words of arcane power on their lips. Prejudice is a very real thing, and an ugly thing... But in Real Life, that prejudice is unfounded. That's what makes it so ugly and pointless. But prejudice against a Drow? Against orcs? Against goblins? Ye gods, I can't even begin to qualify or quantify the sheer brutality and evil that those have brought against the good peoples of Layonara. Prejudice there is good sense.

In the world of Layonara, white and brown forget their differences to team up on green. I'm not sure where that quote is from, but I've always liked it.

[Pen N Popper]

Praylor Falcus - 3/2/2007  4:06 PM  Toranite paladin code #6 All life is sacred. Raping, pillaging, and other crimesof war are strictly forbidden to those in Torans service. Killing should be an act of last resort. Honor your enemies, reguardless of thier race, even in defeat.     As this disscussion is mearly the beginings of PVP open season on drow and other non accepted races, and vicea versa, is the above code to be disreguarded ?   Will players which value life and are not so narrowminded as to judge one by race or skin color, have a means to have such vile examples of thier own races put in jail or executed for open unwarrented murder of another. Tis a can of worms we have not solved in real life and as such to open this to all to rp some repressed real life emotions with no repercussions is subjecting the community to activities we do should consider if we are truly a family server.    Sad a middle aged white guy from Alabama has to be the one to bring this up, but having seen it in real life, i can sense the motives and tone of speech however thinly vieled to be more that just a rp question.

  Just so I'm clear, I don't mean for this to have anything to do with PvP, and yes it is all about appropriately RPing the existing racial issues that exist in Layonara.
  Gulnyr's summary is accurate.
  I was just hoping that with V3, a fresh start could be made to adding some RP depth to this aspect on a more uniform scale. There will be a "flood" of the once-restricted races now. Will the players understand and honor the RP ball & chain that come with such a privelege? Will a new wemic stroll around Hempstead or get a room in the inn? Will a pair of drow brothers sit by the fountain and wink at the goblin ladies as they pass?
  RP is a two way street. Sometimes it helps for the monsters to remember they are monsters as it makes it easier and safer feeling for other to RP against them. At least, that is my perspective.

[darkstorme]

In addition to the points so succintly made by Stephen and PnP, to assume that PvP will result in death is foolish.  Just because there's no good system for subdual damage (yet, hehehe) doesn't mean that you cant beat the daylights out of a drow who's walking openly through town... and then back off when he's beaten.  Then toss the sorry sod out the front gates of the city, with a definite "and don't come back!"  Mercy, in this case, is staying the killing blow... and if you were REALLY of a turn of mind to be kind, you might slip out of town after he's been tossed out and leave him a potion or two to recover from the beating.

PvP, if used intelligently, allows threats to be followed up on, warnings to have teeth, and mercy to be shown.  If you can't hurt someone, you can't possibly show them mercy, nor honour them in defeat.  Monstrous races are just that - monsters.  If they have earned respect or friendship, they deserve it.  Otherwise, why should they be treated any differently than their nasty kin?  But on the subject of PvP, remember, you can STOP attacking. *grins*

[Witch Hunter]

Well said Kell.

Although it might be a bit hard to control the attacks (it tends to toss a few even when you walk again) - the PVP system shouldn't be used to kill unless the situation calls for it

[DiegoBastet]

"Death to darkies!"

I just agree on everything Stephen said. Maybe this is because I play, and DM pnp rpgs, not only videogames, and I have a bigger immersion. Layo is not our world, and I don't use our world prejudice in it. My warrior does not say that a woman should not be a warrior because women have to stay at home, caring about the children, being mothers and growing old in submision to their husbands. He says that because he did not saw a phisicaly strong woman yet. "Go become a mage..." he would say "...at least you are not going to live with a sword in the neck!", he would say. Some people think about layo with their societies' prejudice in their minds, like the drow problem and black people of our world.

Them someone cames and says "Oh, but is BASED on our world and the dark ages of our world, and bla", and I just remember this person that not the entire world is the same. I'm a Brazilian, and I live in Brazil, and I'm pretty much sure that on the US there's a lot og thing about "Latins" and all, as there is about black (or dark, just don't know how you mention them...) people. Let me say, in my country there is prejudice, yes sir, we are not perfect, but it's not something so in face like this, or I can say, it's MUCH LESS than in the US, or some parts of the US (please, forgive me for not knowing your country so well as you do). An example: I do know that in some places of the US there are parts of a city that "belong to dark people" or to latin people, or whatever. There's not such a thing here. A bandit, a drug dealer, a muderer can be ANYONE, and indeed, there are white people, asiatic people, dark people, in many ways of life, and that can be seen. There's not such a thing as "Oh man, he is a dark guy with a white chick" or the like. Hell, in Brazil you can find just so MUCH dark people with green, and even BLUE eyes. Even asiatics with green eyes or a little dark skin!

It may seems have gone a little away from the point, but I'm no trying to show my country and all, just showing how we should not think about the mindset of the game world with our societies as the big base. In my society prejudice is much more to how much money you have than your "race". I mean, MUCH MORE. My society is different than yours. What if I take it to think about Layo? I would surely be thinking "wrong" if people took actual US as the "norm".

My opinion is: There SHOULD be prejudice with the uncommon races, because they are, well, uncommon, and there MUST be prejudice with the mounstrous races because, hell, they are MOUNSTROUS. Drow aren't cool guy with dark skin. Some may be. But they did not get their rep for being slaves in the past. They got it because of what drows INDEED do. It really does not matter in the view of the MOB that you are the Random-Good-Drow-With-Suspecting-Name-And-Two-Scimitars, and how many Random-Dwarven-Kingdoms you recovered, in the eyes of the people, you, are, a, drow, and the way people live everyday, with the stress of the dark ages of layo, with all the despair, if someone could throw a stone on you AND get away with that, blaming you about they horrible lifes AND not being seen as bad people because of that, you may be SURE that the people WOULD do this to you.

I could enter the merit of psichology, but I think this is not for today...

[DMOE]

Witch Hunter - 3/3/2007  7:30 AM  Well said Kell.  Although it might be a bit hard to control the attacks (it tends to toss a few even when you walk again) - the PVP system shouldn't be used to kill unless the situation calls for it

 Define the situation calling for it?
  If my CN Misty feels strongly enough to attack you....9 times out of 10.....She is going to kill you...regardless of the insult and if anyone else thinks it's called for.
  There are always more than one perspective in things like this and to make it worse....No one is ever actually right.
  While you may think a situation doesn't call for PvP or killing if PvP goes ahead from your character point of view the other character may and you'll both be justified.

[Witch Hunter]

A situation calling for it is a threat on your life - as we discussed on IRC (ill post it here too just so others can read)

For me at least, even if I was to fight a Drow and win  - unless there was a threat on my life (or others) I would not commit the kill (by I im refering to my character) - of course, if said Drow is a threat (aka mumbles about killin 'n stuff) then yeah.

But mainly beating him up good is enough to prove my point, heh, we're players after all - we're both trying to have fun... dying rarely is fun (other than that one time me and Quantum died in a quest and got carried around most of the time without doing much work :O thats fun)

[Crunch]

I was thinking a color chart of race relations similar to the deity relations would be useful.  Probably kind of hard to make things that black and white though.