Community Building

[Dremora]

Allowing anyone to join will likely icnrease playerbase buut.. atm basic characters only require like.. a paragraph. Besides short of removing the pasword, they'd still have to come to the Layo website and register for the password.. so why not just throw in a small paragraph and let the CAs stamp it as lore-complient. I think most people might have passworded servers switched off the search and thats why Layo doesnt get more visitors (maybe).

[Aphel]

I agree with Milty, HB and Xalto. And also with Dremora.

I do not understand why we ask of the staff to do something for the community. The community is us, hence we must ask what we can do for the community. I know that if I had the time (and the Internet access...) I would revisit my old idea of reading around in other people's public CDTs and then select my monthly favourites. Rewarding good RP and good writing. I would, maybe in extension of something that my current characters are up to - or as something new - maybe try and plan a weekly group event, be that Lectures and Discussions in the Tower Academy (including, if possible, field trips) or Training Sessions for the followers of Toran or something for that shadowy, wolvish elvish character of mine. Or maybe start something new.
My biggest problem is my time zone, but there are a lot of players that are sometimes around in that time period usually. And with the fact that I am about to start GMing Shadowrun again and even look into running an evening or two for a DnD group, I am ashamed that I am not doing more here. Perhaps we should see what each of us can do to make this more enjoyable. Maybe structural changes, too - for example, letting the community have a say in things like World Leader Applications. Some things that are interesting are already underway in terms of presenting writing to others (some sort of reward, perhaps?) - thanks rowana!

[Dorganath]

Allow entrey for basic characters (Fighter,Wizard,Rogue Good align) without having to jump through the hoops that are the admission process.

As was said elsewhere, this is already the case. Simple characters don't need much more than a paragraph or two. Read the policies we updated most recently. What you are commenting on is old information.

[Guardian 452]

I just dont think you're asking the right question, or enough questions.

1. How can we get our name out there so more people can see us and come try our world?

(The question that should tie directly into question #1)
2. How do we keep them interested in our world and continuing to log in?

3. How can we regain players who moved on?


I can indeed understand the issues having been a GM here, and still being on the content team here. (content system needs work which I wont discuss here)

Is it time to recruit again into the GM team, content teams etc? Or are we so thin that the interest in such positions isnt even there?


About the calendar being slammed with meaningless quests... I kind of disagree with that comment. Why does every quest need to be a multi part (in current cases multi month) series? Why cant we rescue some lost adventurer? Save some obscure town from a seige of orcs, goblins, purple cows with flaming horns, etc.. Find someone lost dog and return it. Have a good old fashioned dungeon crawl, puzzle solving quests, or exploratory quests? Why? Because no one is setting them up or turnout has been to low that the GM's quit trying (not facts jsut my guesses there).

How to solve that? get more players in game at any given time... LOL I know thats the question you asked at the get go... Dont get me wrong I love how we the players can truly make a mark on the world... Enzo has done this in having a temple for Folian added to Dregar and other things too. And I was thrilled to get the chance. But heck... ive had as much fun on quests that when done truly had no impact on the world at all.
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[RollinsCat]

Throwing in.

CA is in my opinion fine - they do a great job.  I think that we as a community need to set a foundation of roleplay expectations up front.  As many have said, our niche is rp.  Much as I want more people on - what's a bard without an audience? - I don't want the password to unlock and then get "hey can u give me gold? tx! lol!" tells.  Ever.

Reading through all this the suggestion that resonates the most is Milt's.  This place is where a lot of us get a gaming fix because our tabletop games have faded over the years and we're still geeks deep in our geeky little hearts.  So a "weekly gaming" or "bi-weekly gaming" session is perfect.  You are involved, enjoying gm/player interaction, and the rest of the time there is still a game that can be explored, rp that can be done, chat with friends, crafting.  I'd like to put the onus on both sides of the equation though.  If a gm puts aside regular time, you do too.  I closed Tues nights off for the next year so I can devote that to  Milt and Masterjack's wonderful, engaging quest.  Alatriel is also running a long-term series that includes those in GMT who often slip through the eastern-dominated cracks.  Lonn is running an open-enrollment series Weds nights.  And you know what?  We're showing up.   We're talking about it. Same with Nimrod/Nova's famine quest.  It's driving conversations and actions.  

So yeah.  One hundred percent with Milt.  It does push work onto the gms, but as we've seen, that can be bi-weekly or less and still shape rp and the world.

Just want to touch on impromptus - in the Deep the other night, some weird things happened.  Nothing critical, no tpw's, just a sense of being chased by something.  Someone was having a bit of fun and it spiced things up.  From stuff that spawns quests (Lonn impromptu at the Buckle) to stuff like the Deep thing, or even a mouse running around the arena or someone's kitchen, those little things really make the world too.

Can't make suggestions without also saying what's gone right: The evolution of Layo has done good things.  Center, now a place forming it's own history and a great meeting place; the loosening (but not opening) of the CA process to "just right"; graceful pleas, which I understand were not always so; the new rules on char quests (awesome!!).  All great steps taken as a community to make the world work for gms and for players.  So even as you suggest stuff, keep in mind that changes do come and they're good ones.

//cheerleading off *chuckle*

[gilshem ironstone]

I don't know if the questions of how to entice people to Layo and how to keep them are entirely related but perhaps more like a Venn diagram.  You can make all the fantastic changes you want, but if no one knows about it, it does not matter a lick.  The "Field of Dreams" model applied at the genesis of Layo I think, but maybe not now.  This is not to throw out the consideration of how content keeps people here entirely, but in this particular thread, we are being asked "How do we get the word out to the public?" and so if we explore that topic first, then maybe it will lead us to some logical extensions on how to deal with G's question #2.

An idea that struck me is to approach the good people at "Fear the Boot" and see if we can't get them to discuss and glorify what we are doing here.  I certainly think it is unique enough to merit a segment on their podcast.  You could get Leanthar or some other spokesperson who enjoys the limelight to chat with them about the history of Layo and the period of transition that we are in.  Ripple this idea out to any other popular internet hang-outs for roleplayers, and you are communicating with your niche.

I think that it is very important to establish a presence in as many RP communities as possible so that they know where we are, what we do and how much fun it is.  I will also agree with G that the conversation of how to keep them loyal is a very important one that if it is not fully addressed here, does need to be looked at elsewhere, often and closely.  Our "product" is all we have and all we can control, so lets make it the best it can be.  I know that this is what the Team wants as well, and I applaud everything that they continue to do, but I think it is always important to remind ourselves to never settle when there is an opportuniy for improvement.

[gilshem ironstone]

Oh!  Fan fiction (or GM fiction, written with aid by the community) that is posted elsewhere on the internet, and gives information that could lead newcomers directly in to ongoing quests.  Not making them central, but giving them a ready-made tie-in.  A quester's version of having a password for a sale.  If a player shows up and can deliver info XYZ to the GM it could open up a new avenue in the quest.  For example, and this is totally by the seat of my pants because I am not involved in any quests, write a story about a messengers epic, marathon-like journey from Castle Imjam to Mariner's Hold.  It could be a classic tale of the journey through the dark forest.  Once the messenger arrives they deliver their message to some emissary, "Beware the Countess of Desjardins!  She is a vampire!".  The reader is then told that they can make a character in Layo who overheard the message, come to the quest, and reveal that there is a secret cult of vampires in their midst!

Might need some refinement but could give new players an instant hook.  Although it might not be fair to players who have devoted more time, I think it pays them off too by having a bigger player base to interact with.

Come on brain... Make more ideas....

[miltonyorkcastle]

Very well put, Gilshem. /// EDIT: This was typed and posted before your second post, Gilshem, in which I think you are attempting to come up with ideas to address exactly what I am talking about in this post. ///

There is one other thing I think needs to be addressed when considering potential growth through reaching out to other folks in our 'niche', and that thing is to already have the planning and infrastructure to support adding the new people. Right now, I don't feel like we have that. Sure, we have a game client that people can roam and explore and spend time RPing with each other, but as has already been mentioned here and elsewhere, the NWN client is not what will draw or keep people here. Once they get NWN working, they start mucking about the place, only to discover that it's not a standard video game world, leveling isn't fast, and it's designed for group play but no one is online. If we're going to reach out to those niche communities that might be interested in a highly immersive RP online environment, we need to be ready to receive the new players with more than just a 'go have a look around/come check us out' sort of spiel.

I'd say to go with a plan (and of course, I'm going to keep coming back to the theme of the Weekly Gaming Session) that looks something like this: "Hey! So we're Layonara, and this is what we're about, and this is how you can leave lasting impressions on this world and RP in a deeply immersive environment. If you join right now, we've got a three new weekly quest series starting each with five slots open for new people, and you can be automatically started into one of those series. Consider this your new online home for a weekly gaming session, pen-and-paper style."

I like this kind of plan because not only are we getting the word out to our niche, but we are giving them a distinct place in the world/game from the start. We're saying, "Hey, we have the infrastructure [GMs] and the perfect place [weekly session] for you to get going into the Layo world."

If you get those fifteen new people counting on that weekly gaming experience, they become friends, they fall in love with their characters, you give them a story they won't forget over the next year each series runs (whether it's a true year-long series, or just a weekly gaming session of one-shots quests, or a mix), they will stick around. They will tell other people about their experience. They will invite other people to join them. They will want to become GMs. Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Teo]

Maybe the players need to start spreading the word. I know that I started playing Layo when Merlin34 told me about it. Maybe if the topic of games comes up between a player and one of his friends, they could mention Layo. And if that person tries it and enjoys it, he would tell one of his friends, ect.

Just a cheap, simple way to advertise the world.

And prehaps give new members a starting up quest, just a little impromptu, that they won't forget, give them a little push towards loving the great story of Layo.

[Nehetsrev]

To take Gilshem's idea a step further, why not actually take the time to create 5 playable, pre-approved characters that can be referenced in the hook-story for the new players to use when they come, allowing them to pick a character and jump right into the game?  You could still allow the new players the opton to create their own unique characters if they didn't like any of the pre-generated ones, but they'd have to go through the normal character approval process for those.
 
For example, using the vampire cult scenario.  The story might tell of five individuals who were with the messenger and survived the initial discovery of the vampire coven, fleshing out some details about each of these five courageous (or not so courageous) persons who chose to stay behind to fight the vampires while the messenger ran for help.  Perhaps one or two of these five were captured by the vampires and are being held for some ritual of nefarious purpose, or simply as stead food-sources, and it's up to the long time players to find them, free them, and help them overcome the vampire plot.
 
Just an additional brain-storm here, but thought, "Why not share it?"

[Guardian 452]

Look at this from a different angle if you can and you may see where I am coming from.

Forget that you have been here X number of years.... You just now discovered Layo last week. You join and play... with the lack of quests, lack of things to come in items, areas, lack of players online etc.... would you stay? So why would "John Q Roleplayer" stay when we discover this new and awesome way to reach out to him?  

That's why I think #2 (keep them interested) is every bit as important as finding this new way to reach potential players.

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[RollinsCat]

Keep them interested is everyone's job regardless of what hat they wear.  One thing we can all do is take time to give a tell, say hi, welcome, if you have any questions, let me know if you need help with a quest - I think most of us do this already.  Give them an idea of what to expect, what gm quests are open for people to jump into, and start up some non-gm rp to get them enjoying things.  If this reaching out and expanding is to work we have to be willing to act as ambassadors of the world we love and offer something to keep them returning if there isn't much going on - language lessons, tutoring, weekly adventure groups, whatever.

speaking of which, overdue to run a Buckle event!

[Gunther]

Both Rollins and G have valid points, but I dont think greeting and making people feel welcome is sufficient.  Not in Layo.  I vaguely recall a Chongo post that stated the encounters are geared towards groups, they're downright deadly to a single player.  Especially so to a new player.  The static quests are entertaining - for Gunther.  Death on a stick for a level 7 anything to try some of them.

There just arent enough people to form groups to make the quests safe for the newbies.  I will and have taken people on quests, but I also collect silk for Andrew, purple mushrooms for Angels, corn for Elohanna, and silver for Jils.  And somebody asked Gunther to collect alexandrite awhile ago, I dont even remember who that was (by the way whoever you are, I have some alexandrite for you).

Unfortunately, not enough people for the newbies to safely quest with just leads back to the whole marketing issue and getting people to come here.  But then they wont stay, because they just get repeatedly slaughtered.

[Nehetsrev]

Oh, another aspect I forgot to touch upon with the pre-generated characters associated with those hook-story quest lines... in creating the character bio, you could work in bits of lore such as demographic information, local customs, religious holidays and such for the place from which these characters come from.  Help introduce Layonara lore right from the get-go.
 
I seem to recall a while back something mentioned about dividing up the world into areas between the active DM's, making them experts on lore for their corner of the world, so to speak.  Imagine then, these pre-generated characters with their bios portraying aspects from whatever area of the world they came from, and the players/characters then in a sense becomming living lore depositories, sharing those personal bits of lore with everyone they encounter.  To use an existing character as an example, I like playing with Andrew Reid because he does that.  He adds that oriental feeling 'Huang-Jin' flare to his RP that makes his character stand out and as a result feel more alive and real, and more a part of the world of Layonara.
 
Anyhow that's the rest of that brainstorm from earlier...
 
As to the next 'Buckle event, make sure the Wayward Wildside Trio is invited to make an appearance.  They're awesome!

[gilshem ironstone]

Look at this from a different angle if you can and you may see where I am coming from.

Forget that you have been here X number of years.... You just now discovered Layo last week. You join and play... with the lack of quests, lack of things to come in items, areas, lack of players online etc.... would you stay? So why would "John Q Roleplayer" stay when we discover this new and awesome way to reach out to him?  

That's why I think #2 (keep them interested) is every bit as important as finding this new way to reach potential players.

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I see your point, but how did I find out about Layo last week?  That's my point.  I think #2 is important, but lets let that be another issue for another thread.  If we stay focused on one issue at a time, we can make some good progress; at least that is what I believe.

[Teo]

Maybe there could be more quests based around one or two people, rather than parties, since the whole thing this thread is about is the fact that there aren't enough people to make a big party with on the server at one time normally. Or maybe some solo quests made more about role play and roles, like persuade checks and bluff checks, since mostly the quests are easier for fighters, and a bard or wizard without a party can't do much. And it would give newer players more taste for the role play.

[Dorganath]

Look at this from a different angle if you can and you may see where I am coming from.

Forget that you have been here X number of years.... You just now discovered Layo last week. You join and play... with the lack of quests, lack of things to come in items, areas, lack of players online etc.... would you stay? So why would "John Q Roleplayer" stay when we discover this new and awesome way to reach out to him?  

That's why I think #2 (keep them interested) is every bit as important as finding this new way to reach potential players.

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G, please explain how there is a lack of areas, items and things to do for new players?  We have a staggering number of both.  Sure, maybe some in the current population would find them old and stale, but for a new player, there's literally hundreds of areas to explore and probably hundreds of items that are unique to Layonara on top of all the boring and usual items found elsewhere.

I get where you're trying to go with your comment, mostly, but some of your examples don't make any sense at all when talking about new players.

[Hellblazer]

G, please explain how there is a lack of areas, items and things to do for new players?  We have a staggering number of both.  Sure, maybe some in the current population would find them old and stale, but for a new player, there's literally hundreds of areas to explore and probably hundreds of items that are unique to Layonara on top of all the boring and usual items found elsewhere.

I get where you're trying to go with your comment, mostly, but some of your examples don't make any sense at all when talking about new players.

Think he meant safely for a single player to do since there's not a lot of people around on a constant basis to assure that the new players that come here will have people to party up with.

There was a time where us north americans.. and south too.. had a hard time to get on group or quests because the majority of the players/gm at that time were in the uk time zones. now it's the other way around. The majority of quests are in the america's time zones, with the exception of those run at times to allow the euro's to get on them. That tells me that the switch of time zone also occurred with the switch of when and where the most players play. So if you advertise to new people, who are unfortunately in the euro's time zone, and there's not enough people or gm event to carter for them, they will be stuck. Which I think touches to what G and others may be saying.

[Guardian 452]

Dorg

In my example I was speaking of Layonaras past what seemed like nearly constant growth, in the areas of new items, classes, races, areas etc. vs. now that "newness" in these categories seems to be far less frequent. We DO HAVE loads of areas now, LOADS of items now I am not disputing this fact.  So many items and areas in fact that in both areas we literally have no more room for more, unless we remove some (do correct me if I am wrong on that). I think that this "no vacancy" could even be behind the reason why we dont see any new areas coming, new items coming etc. Its a lot of work to figure out what we can shave off and not have people crying foul. This I believe falls back onto what I said before about the content side of things not working so well (too slowly) these days.

If you are talking about new plauers basically remove the entire second server from the conversation with "new players" especially all of the deep, Rift, and all the other high level, level up, group up or die areas. Saying they can explore these areas as a new player is silly cause we know they will die often.. pick up tokens... sit and wait on reflections... feel useless, get frustrated and leave. Certainly not what we want to happen!

That leaves a far more limited "playing field" for "new players"... so lets see if what "new people" have to roam is enough, too much or could use more, and go from there. If needed removing existing areas that arent used as often or arent newbie friendly to cater to these "new people" we all agree the server needs to survive.

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[Guardian 452]

I see your point, but how did I find out about Layo last week?  That's my point.  I think #2 is important, but lets let that be another issue for another thread.  If we stay focused on one issue at a time, we can make some good progress; at least that is what I believe.

How did I (or the other hundreds of people) find Layonara ? I found Layonara in October 2003.... No facebook, no twitter, no google+.. I still found the place on a simple search.. and so did a couple others back in the day....

I want to agree with you gilshem but I just cant. #2 is every bit as critical. Would you buy a new or used car from the dealership purely on what the dealer told you and the exterior appearance? Heck no.. you would want to see the inside.. take it for a spin.. kick the tires and see how it reacts. If you saw a beautiful car parked in the lot... but it didnt drive quite like you expected, wasnt quite the right color, and needed some more work in the interior and engine... would you write them a check or keep looking?

Layonara has a killer core community, we have outstanding roleplayers. Is that all we need to seal the deal? If so... then you are right deal with #2 later.

If I found Layo last week/ last month etc. and gave it a test run with the current community size, direction of the world etc. I'm sorry to say I would have probably not have stuck around and continued to look elsewhere for my gaming fix.

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