The World of Layonara

The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rowana on August 01, 2012, 03:13:03 pm

Title: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 01, 2012, 03:13:03 pm
Hello folks.

Community (dwindling) issues have come into the limelight once again. (yes, the semiannual occurrence has come to pass!) So I'd like to see ideas people have for community building. We always kind of do the cricket violin thing but then we never move to that point where we're looking at actual action. As I stated in another thread, I have a few ideas but I would rather open this up to the community and let the community's collective shine here!

I'm going to throw some things out there up front but otherwise we'll feed back ideas as they come around and see if we can get some things going!

1) We cannot give incentives for money for the NWN version of Layonara. It will get us sued and shut down and all kinds of nasty things. The only way money can come into play is for donations to keep the servers up and running.

2) Anything that requires an intensive amount of work for the lead staff will be considered but won't be attempted in the near future. If a window of opportunity presents itself we'll see what we can do.

3) At this time we have no desire to get rid of the CA process and it has been lightened to the lowest viable setting to keep lore intact and our CA staff sane.

4) Soul Strands are also off the table as far as altering how/when they work. It has been stated elsewhere in a few places that Soul Strands will be apart of game play in the MMO as well. They are here to stay.

5) Lore and lore consistency is absolutely king/queen here.

6) Anything that requires GM action will require the willing, but not grudgingly so, volunteerism of a GM. If the idea has merit but we don't have people who have the time/ability, we'll keep it on the idea list for a time in the future.

7) Please do not take lead staff feedback as a shut down of an idea. If it's definitely a no go, we'll just say "Hey, cool idea but we can't do this." Otherwise just take it as feedback to build on.

8) This shouldn't devolve into, "When the MMO comes out could we....". Those kinds of sentiments are more than welcome but there's a forum for that so head on over there for those kinds of posts.

9) Long posts welcome so long as the above conditions are adhered too.

So let's hear it folks!

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 01, 2012, 04:12:44 pm
oh, geez... uhm... :U

Maybe some forum/NWN layo crossover with a small puzzle series? Something to tie some folks up and keep them occupied? *throws red herrings EVERYWHERE*
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Gunther on August 01, 2012, 04:33:30 pm
This might break rule #5, but I recall a story I heard once about DnD.  No idea whether its true or not.

It had to do with the module 'Land Beyond the Magic Mirror' which was a blatant rip off of Carroll's 'Alice in Wonderland' stories.  There was a vorpal sword, tweedle dee and dum, a jabberwock, cheshire cat, etc.

It was silly, it was also one of the best selling modules ever.  And some of the encounters were deadly.

I guess my point is that not every quest has to be a life and death struggle for the soul of Layo.

I'm not saying that my prior post about a quest involving vampiric asian carp should actually be implemented, but something like it would be good for a laugh.  From a cynical viewpoint, if the Carroll modules were some of the best selling ever, it is probable that some lighthearted adventures here might attract some folks.

Of course, it'd have to be done in strict moderation.  Maybe one GM running one series of limited quests.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Lance Stargazer on August 01, 2012, 04:40:49 pm
Gunther .-

Regardmg that when Row speaks of Lore and lore consistent are the king and queen here means on story and character development.

There is actually an option for GM's to run "spin off" series  that are not Lored, this events of course can't be taken in acount for character development and can't be written into any CDT or anything, those are given to have the option to do "what if" kind of story or "for the fun" of it.

With that said I do think that one of the greatest advantages that Layonara has its indeed the ability and the character development and the unique oportunities of Rp it brings, But the option is there.

Hope this is along the lines you were sayng.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Gunther on August 01, 2012, 04:51:03 pm
Thanks Lance, I can appreciate what you're saying.  I'd just approach any whimsical stories with trepidation, as they do actually require a pretty deft touch and a penchant for humor, which not everyone has.

I think it'd have a good appeal and would provide a change of pace.  But it couldnt be overdone or I think it would actually break the suspension of disbelief necessary in any such game.

I have an idea or two that I'll send to a GM privately.  If they get implemented, great, if not thats ok too.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 01, 2012, 05:06:53 pm
Ask yourself what (type of) players you are trying to gain?
What game are they playing now?
How to get them away from it to here?

NWN isnt the greatest graphics... hast been for years. So you wont get people away with eye candy.

D20 SUCKS!!!! we all know it. I am about to stop calling it crafting and start calling it "lucking". Several other MMO's have a far superior crafting system in place... so you wont get them away with our crafting system.

PvP .... too many restrictions in having anything close to a true PvP experience here. Other MMO's have strait up PvP built it so you wont get them lured here with PvP.

What is left?  the Layo Core community & RolePlay. So figure out how to get good roleplayers here. or... figure out how to get other MMO's players to learn the value of good roleplay and see what a great core community we have here.

I dont know if any of these would bring in "new blood" or just bring some folks back for a few months.... but here goes.

1. A "Call home" ability for all players.

2. Put Soul Strands back on the table of discussion. You can't exclude a major item that has caused players to leave if you are honestly trying to grow the community or bring people back.

3. New items

4. New Crafting Items

5. Health regen for all characters

6. New areas

7. +4 gear

8. An actual "Community Building" It would function like a house. Players can come in... set up a chest and sell their wares. Set up a combat dummy and give training lessons, archery target and archery lessons etc.

9. Give me a reason to want to log in. Right now I don't have one when I click server status and I see no one on or a couple people on. A world that is gearted towards group play is destined to die when no one is on when we want to play. So get people in or reshape the world to the people here.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: LordCove on August 01, 2012, 05:33:03 pm
A reduction in the XP required to level in both Class and Crafting would, I think, encourage new players to stay and old players to return.

I understand this is primarily an RP server, but with dwindling numbers it is probably increasingly difficult to find someone to RP with, and if you do, you likely need to travel a great distance to find them.

Add to that the "grinding" factor, whereby characters level so slowly, they must return to the same areas time and again ( or attend quests ) to gain enough levels to be able to go to new areas ( and repeat the process )
The same applies to crafting.

Personally, time is a factor.
I think it would bring old players back and attract some new ones, if their progress was hastened.
For example, alter the XP required to reach level 8 to standard NWN amounts. From level 8 - 15 NWN standard*2. Level 15-20*3... and 20+ requires 1 million xp per level.

If the server is empty but a character is able to solo some area's and knows its not going to take a week to level by himself, then he's going to log in and do it.
If one person does it... another will... and another...

Much the same with crafting XP.The crafting system here is awesome, and totally addictive. But again, is such a lengthy process, and with ingame guilds now stocking just about everything that can be made via crafting, there is hardly a need for anyone not in a guild to craft.

Just a thought, play with it as you will.

Edit: Highlighting Guardian's quote, he said it better than I could.

9.  A world that is gearted towards group play is destined to die when no one is on when we want to play.

LC
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 01, 2012, 05:42:20 pm
10. Remove the 6 characters per person rule. Possibly giving us the option to then bring back people we deleted because of said rule.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Gunther on August 01, 2012, 06:19:41 pm
Expanding on Lordcove's post, I recently helped a newer player through some crypts to complete a quest.  After we had completed the quest, he advised as to his xp gain for the quest and how far he had to go and that he felt it was quite a bit.  I advised him as to the amount of xp that Gunther had to get in order to level.

I further advised him that if he wanted to play in Layo and excel, he should get involved with the quests, check the calendat, get to know people, and not worry about the xp amount, just enjoy himself, etc.

But I think my mention of xp killed him.  I havent seen him since.

Regrettably or not, this is the age of instant gratification.  If I push that button, I better get my pellet of food NOW!.

Fortunately for me, I dont mind getting 6 xp to kill 500 giants that carry 17 gold pieces total.  I think its great.

Unfortunately, Karma stopped me from my expeditions into Misty Village.  I only had to commit genocide on the Misty Village 110 more times to level too.  In all fairness, I am having more fun roaming around and exploring the changes to Layo, even though I only had 110 more times to go.  The Misty Villagers should erect a shrine to Karma.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 01, 2012, 06:45:51 pm
Let me back up the train just a wee bit.

I want to point out that no amount of improvements we make in game are going to matter if no one is looking. That was sort of the vein I hoped people would take with at least some of this thread.

I understand that you guys are listing off irritations with the world that you wish we could fix for one reason or another, and sure maybe some of them will help. I am definitely interested in what you have to say about what's going to keep you here. Sustaining aspects are definitely important. I was hoping folks would widen the focus when they made their suggestions, however.

What I'm seeing to start out with are a lot of the things that have already been hashed out (though not all) in previous discussion threads. Some of these suggestions we can't do anything about until the MMO is in a playable state. Some of these things have hit a point where no one has any really good ideas on how to balance it to fairness between casual and hard core players and that's a big, big factor that stands in the way of implementation. If you have some ideas on those, again, we're happy to hear it. Perhaps retread on those ideas in the previous threads and see what you can do with it.

The kinds of things that tend to keep people around a community don't have much to do with exp numbers, item lists or number of available dungeon crawls. Roleplay as the primary focus of a game is definitely a niche market. It is not going to appeal to -a lot- of people. On the other hand there are thousands of people out there looking for exactly that. Without writing a SEO script bot to plaster our name everywhere or something equally irritating, we've got to initiate some ideas to get the community out there for those people to see. Building a community that checks in on each other and bonds with each other in the way that Layonara has in the past is one of the missing elements a lot of people have complained about losing.

This community is never going to be the size of the big MMO games. Indeed, I don't think anyone really wants it to be that big here, even in the long run. So, yeah. Let's look at who we want to appeal to and I think we have a pretty clear image of that already. How do we get those people to come to Layonara? Staying power is something we can tweek and twist as we go but again, won't matter if we don't have anyone coming around in the first place.

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: wild_down_under on August 01, 2012, 07:24:16 pm
In essence, are you asking us how to market Layo so that it is more noticeable/appealing in order to attract the "niche" RP people type? That is what I am getting from the last paragraph.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 01, 2012, 08:06:41 pm
Getting new blood is great. But that isnt the only way to grow the community. Look at all the people who "check in" from time to time. Look at the people that left with them.

Why did they leave?
What can we do to get them to give us another try?

I myself have been one of those on again.. off again people. I first started playing here in October 2003. The first few years it was hard core man! This place had tons of active GM's, the calendar (once created) was full all the time!... Leanthar would pop in (typically as Milara) and torment our PC's. The world itself was growing... new areas, new items, new races, new classes.. new new new... just want people wanted and they got.

Right now... you could leave for 6 months or a year and I bet you will see little to no change at all in the above areas. So why would someone want to come back? Roleplay only has so much draw.

Row.. I understand you wanting to know how to get people to find us... to even know we exist. But beyond that we gotta give them a reason to stay. I dont see that being the case with Layo today, vs. Layo of yester year.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 01, 2012, 08:22:01 pm
"Marketing" is a wide word especially with the onset of social media. I'm not really looking to put anything in this thread under that bracket in any sense. Why? Because I'm not asking anyone to put the word out to sell the world. I'm not asking anyone to cut in on some ad space to sell it. I'm not even asking for ideas for wording for an ad to sell the place. Frankly, if we want that, someone on Layonara's lead staff will just do it. What I am looking for is a solution to the problems people are most complaining about.

"There's no one to play with."

That's a problem we can solve and it's not going to take marketing. Again, I say that tweeking in game mechanics isn't going to be the only way to draw in and keep people. Particularly when RP is the actual focus of the game and not the mechanics themselves. Speculating why people have quit playing is kind of fruitless too.  Without people to come around and tell us why they quit it's all just 'what if'ing. Some of you guys have taken Layobreaks, or quit and then  come back. You guys can fill us in on why you personally left and why  you came back if you want but that's going to be the best we can do there. Some of us are privy to details of why other players left, particularly long time players but we're not able to share those details out right. Most of what I know about has more to do with the lack of people, lack of RP, RL conflict that took precedence, (babies, school, money, job, job, job....) or a personal conflict they felt was irreconcilable more than some mechanic or another that annoyed them into quitting.

So, no. I don't have a specific idea that I'm hedging around asking for people to do/suggest. I'm asking, literally, what are your ideas? What would you like to see from us to help expand what we do here? What do you think you'd like to do to pitch in for the same? Is there some kind of new scheduling thing we could do? Is there something we could do for the folks who can't get IG as much to help them feed the RP craving and keep them connected to the world? Is there some community tool that might make getting together a little easier? Is there something you'd like to have shout out over social media to read over the day? Is there a section of the forums you might like to have added to assist with community expansion? Is there something you'd like to see celebrated more often? Is there something completely out there you'd like to see us try that isn't even remotely on this list?

There's been a few suggestions. Some folks would like a return of the Dev Log. Noted! We want that too and as soon as it's viable, it's coming back. Some people want mechanical updates and things. Noted and handling at least some of that as the opportunity presents itself. People want more quests 'for fun'. Noted! GMs are now aware (well if they read this thread they are!). Frankly the suggested forum-to-IG puzzle idea could use some fleshing out so we could see if that's something we could do.

I am literally trying to tap the same out-side-the-box thinking people like to use on quests to help us solve our own problem. When it comes down to it, it would only take a handful of new/returning regular players in each time zone to fill this place up enough to give that spice of variety and such. It just doesn't seem like a too tall an order for us to solve as a community. So what are your ideas? What is it that makes you love this place so much you come back, for some every single day, sometimes multiple times a day and how can we enhance that? For those of you who wish you could play that much but can't how can we feed your love of the place a little to get you through until you have time to play?

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 01, 2012, 08:26:16 pm
I think perhaps she is asking for some non-mechanical things that might help retain the community...some crossing of the aisles from people fixated fully on one play style while only giving the other lip service. I ask this because if only mechanical suggestions are made, only those who care about mechanics will be enticed. To paraphrase you G, bashing only has so much draw. *winks*

Uncharacteristically, I'm just going to avoid commenting on anything I've read so far beyond this, because I have a killer headache and it's put me in a foul mood...and you all don't want that.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 01, 2012, 08:26:46 pm
@ Guardian - yes but putting the onus only on the GMs to keep pumping out quests, particularly for some of us who have been here for years actively isn't really fair. There has got to be some other stuff we can do besides slamming the calendar with meaningless quest to keep people busy. And you yourself know some of the issues with changing and updating mod content. There's only so many hours of the day and we are so far less populated with teams and those who are there have lives and people to feed. So let's branch out. That's what I'm asking for here. -Surely- we can come up with some ideas to try out, even if they flop.

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 01, 2012, 09:39:34 pm
I had a rather lengthy and in typical G452 fashion scatterbrained reply going.. which I decided wasnt answering the issue that was asked, and was just comebacks to fix what we had now and quests now etc....  but I just deleted the whole lot of it.

I am at a loss for ways to find a new method to reach out to "new" players to get them interested in Layo.

So.... good luck.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on August 02, 2012, 12:22:59 am
Okay... let's see...

At this point, I don't play Layo or envision Layo in its current incarnation as a video game. Yes, I use a video game platform, and in many ways it nicely handles some number crunching and gives me a great visual which helps with immersion (despite it not having the most up to date graphics). I play Layo like I play my weekly pen-and-paper tabletop games with the guys. I schedule a time to play (or GM), and I spend the time not only playing/GMing in the Layo world, I also catch up with my friends here on Layo, out-of-character, making the whole event both an experience in gaming and a social experience. With pen and paper, I sit around a table with my buddies, and we collaboratively develop a story and meaningful characters. I do the exact same thing with Layo except that I'm at a computer instead of a coffee table.

So, when I ask myself what keeps me around Layo, I realize that it's likely the same thing that keeps me going back to my PnP games every week. Okay, then what is it that keeps me coming back to those PnP games? It is the characters, the story- both of which are created via roleplay by players and GMs- and the community, my friends. The same thing keeps me interested in Layo, keeps me coming back.

There is a model here of success. A Gamemaster, a handful of players, camaraderie, challenging stories, and characters you fall in love with. If you have all those things, you have staying power. It's a classic design that has worked well for our niche of roleplaying gamers for decades. We have this on Layo. What we're lacking is structure and consistency. I can count on my weekly Saturday PnP game. I know that a little more than three out of four weeks a month I will get to roleplay with a great group of friends. The meetings are consistent. We have a set schedule, set start and finish times. The game, our social outlet, has structure because we know when it will start and when it will end, so we can schedule around it.

I believe that for a community like this one to not only survive, but thrive, you have to build it around this classic gaming convention: a structured, consistent roleplaying session with a group of friends. Imagine if you popped onto Layo every Saturday night for four to five hours with some good friends for your regularly scheduled weekly gaming session. Now imagine if that was the same group of friends and the same GM every Saturday. Maybe you only log in just for that block of 'quest' time. Now imagine if every day of the week had a classic PnP style of session on Layo: one GM, a handful of players (let's say five for simplicity's sake), 4-5 hours, lots of RP and story and character. Well, that means we'd have seven GMs actively running a 'quest'/session every week, and at five players per session, that's 35 players. Okay, now, imagine if we had two classic PnP style sessions a day (accommodating other timezones), at the same ratio, that's 14 GMs and 70 players. Even if these players only logged in once a week for their weekly session, we'd still have more people online than we do right now. More than likely, though at least half those players would log in outside their weekly session, and bum around and meet new people. Now, imagine if we upped the number of players per GM session to eight. That would mean 112 active players. You know what I envision? Three classic PnP style sessions a day set in the world of Layo- one for the Europe zones, one for the America zones, and one for the Aussie zones. At eight players a GM, that's 168 active players. We have what, thirty to forty active players right now? That would more than quadruple the community size, AND it would have staying power. People stick around for that weekly gaming session, that weekly dose of story and character, that laughing and joking with friends who share the same interests. Because suddenly playing on Layo is about that social experience, suddenly it's about the creative endeavor of roleplay, and not about a video game, which you 'beat' and then move on to the next game.

I believe that the key to growing the community, that the key to the staying power of the community, is building the community around the classic pen-and-paper style of playing RPGs: The Weekly Gaming Session.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Hellblazer on August 02, 2012, 12:58:13 am
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
Okay... let's see...

At this point, I don't play Layo or envision Layo in its current incarnation as a video game. Yes, I use a video game platform, and in many ways it nicely handles some number crunching and gives me a great visual which helps with immersion (despite it not having the most up to date graphics). I play Layo like I play my weekly pen-and-paper tabletop games with the guys. I schedule a time to play (or GM), and I spend the time not only playing/GMing in the Layo world, I also catch up with my friends here on Layo, out-of-character, making the whole event both an experience in gaming and a social experience. With pen and paper, I sit around a table with my buddies, and we collaboratively develop a story and meaningful characters. I do the exact same thing with Layo except that I'm at a computer instead of a coffee table.

So, when I ask myself what keeps me around Layo, I realize that it's likely the same thing that keeps me going back to my PnP games every week. Okay, then what is it that keeps me coming back to those PnP games? It is the characters, the story- both of which are created via roleplay by players and GMs- and the community, my friends. The same thing keeps me interested in Layo, keeps me coming back.

There is a model here of success. A Gamemaster, a handful of players, camaraderie, challenging stories, and characters you fall in love with. If you have all those things, you have staying power. It's a classic design that has worked well for our niche of roleplaying gamers for decades. We have this on Layo. What we're lacking is structure and consistency. I can count on my weekly Saturday PnP game. I know that a little more than three out of four weeks a month I will get to roleplay with a great group of friends. The meetings are consistent. We have a set schedule, set start and finish times. The game, our social outlet, has structure because we know when it will start and when it will end, so we can schedule around it.

I believe that for a community like this one to not only survive, but thrive, you have to build it around this classic gaming convention: a structured, consistent roleplaying session with a group of friends. Imagine if you popped onto Layo every Saturday night for four to five hours with some good friends for your regularly scheduled weekly gaming session. Now imagine if that was the same group of friends and the same GM every Saturday. Maybe you only log in just for that block of 'quest' time. Now imagine if every day of the week had a classic PnP style of session on Layo: one GM, a handful of players (let's say five for simplicity's sake), 4-5 hours, lots of RP and story and character. Well, that means we'd have seven GMs actively running a 'quest'/session every week, and at five players per session, that's 35 players. Okay, now, imagine if we had two classic PnP style sessions a day (accommodating other timezones), at the same ratio, that's 14 GMs and 70 players. Even if these players only logged in once a week for their weekly session, we'd still have more people online than we do right now. More than likely, though at least half those players would log in outside their weekly session, and bum around and meet new people. Now, imagine if we upped the number of players per GM session to eight. That would mean 112 active players. You know what I envision? Three classic PnP style sessions a day set in the world of Layo- one for the Europe zones, one for the America zones, and one for the Aussie zones. At eight players a GM, that's 168 active players. We have what, thirty to forty active players right now? That would more than quadruple the community size, AND it would have staying power. People stick around for that weekly gaming session, that weekly dose of story and character, that laughing and joking with friends who share the same interests. Because suddenly playing on Layo is about that social experience, suddenly it's about the creative endeavor of roleplay, and not about a video game, which you 'beat' and then move on to the next game.

I believe that the key to growing the community, that the key to the staying power of the community, is building the community around the classic pen-and-paper style of playing RPGs: The Weekly Gaming Session.


What he said!

Me and some others here have been playing together for.. god.. 10 to 12 years. What keeps me coming here, I can't speak for them, is the interaction my characters have with other characters. The IG friendship/relationship good/bad that happens in a world setting that is dissimilar to the one we live in. It's refreshing. Unfortunately like probably many, there comes time where what provides us with this opportunity the game engine grows tiresome, and a lot of all that has already been mentioned previously. That's why sometimes we move to other games. But if those games doesn't give us the ability to actually form this association between character, well it looses it's appeal and as rp players we come back to the place that offers us the most of what we like.

How to make it better, unfortunately yes it's a more involved gm teams. Not necessarily long series of quests, or quests that will last into the wee hours. But impromptus, and one time quests, lore related or not. I'm happy to see that there's the possibility of non cannon quests that will help. But I have to agree that a lot of what makes this place a really great place to play compared to other mmo's is the interaction with the GM and basically the world through those GM quests and events. And maybe that's something that needs a better focus here and there.

If you can't update the graphics or the systems too much more than it is possible now compared to the current games, and I'm not saying this as slite, then you need to focus heavily on what this game permits, and right now the biggest thing that this game has over Lotro, WOW, Guildwars and others, is the ability for the game master to shape the world in to a living entity that the players can interact with. That's the strong point beside modding, of this game and why it's been so successful throughout the years pushing the 10 years limit.. I don't know of any other platform that has had such a living cycle. So while other games (ie lotro) have cutting edge graphics and servers that promots role play, yes there is, they still can't compete with how the GM can interact daily if they want, with the world. THIS is your biggest selling point. And I have to agree that even compared to when I started here in 06, there's a big difference from then to now. Of course as the community dwindles so does the gms, it goes hand in hands. Less players means less potential gms. But for those that are still here, the best way to keep the player interested without having them to grind every day, and give them opportunities to RP what's happening in the world, is having more than one arc/plot going on at the same time, short or long it doesn't matter. Right now I think I can count 3 or 4 stories arc going on, It's not bad. But more could be better, as if you can't go to one, maybe because there's too many people which makes it hard on all parties, having more story arcs would enable people to diverse to where they want to participate. That in return will give more to the players to rp in between themselves at the same time.
 
Quote from: Rowana
Let me back up the train just a wee bit.

I want to point out that no amount of improvements we make in game are going to matter if no one is looking. That was sort of the vein I hoped people would take with at least some of this thread.


You got to use the video social media more. Youtube and other video hosting websites can be great tools. Of course the graphic limitation of NWN will be a factor, so you can always cheat a bit by using all the goodies in the nwncq and the other hacks that gives better graphics to the game.

You have a very good idea about placing the cdj's as a marketing tool for the current incarnation of the game. But all that said, once the people are here, if what has been mentioned to be very high irritants to player are not fix, you  may lose them as soon as you get them. So both have to be done at the same time to be effective, although fixing thing prior will look better than trying to fix them while you are advertising.

Here's a deal, give me a video made from an event in game, and I'll make a track for it that you can use in the video ;)

Anyhow, my 1/8th of a true.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Xaltotun on August 02, 2012, 04:48:08 am
I must admit that I agree with Milty and HB on this. Social media tools and so on are great, but what makes Layo the place you want to stay in is the character/gm/personal interaction; and that has nothing to do with the graphics or the game engine.

As HB said, the main difference for me is the huge drop in gm run games - and this is not meant as a slight against the team, it is simply the truth of the matter as the community dwindles - and as they both said, both plot and impromptu run games. Personally, I prefer the impromptu games. They are short and usually only with a few characters where you know you can make a difference. On the other hand, the world plot games I feel are too big, all the big characters get involved and you become a little cog in a huge wheel. The point behind PnP is that ~everyone~ was allowed to feel important and played a role (since these games have smaller groups), that is what makes this game (and therefore Layo) different from WoW etc.

So boost the gm and other content, and players will follow. Otherwise, all the advertising in the world will not make any difference.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Nom on August 02, 2012, 05:40:26 am
Allow entrey for basic characters (Fighter,Wizard,Rogue Good align) without having to jump through the hoops that are the admission process.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dremora on August 02, 2012, 06:26:02 am
Allowing anyone to join will likely icnrease playerbase buut.. atm basic characters only require like.. a paragraph. Besides short of removing the pasword, they'd still have to come to the Layo website and register for the password.. so why not just throw in a small paragraph and let the CAs stamp it as lore-complient. I think most people might have passworded servers switched off the search and thats why Layo doesnt get more visitors (maybe).
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Aphel on August 02, 2012, 07:08:00 am
I agree with Milty, HB and Xalto. And also with Dremora.

I do not understand why we ask of the staff to do something for the community. The community is us, hence we must ask what we can do for the community. I know that if I had the time (and the Internet access...) I would revisit my old idea of reading around in other people's public CDTs and then select my monthly favourites. Rewarding good RP and good writing. I would, maybe in extension of something that my current characters are up to - or as something new - maybe try and plan a weekly group event, be that Lectures and Discussions in the Tower Academy (including, if possible, field trips) or Training Sessions for the followers of Toran or something for that shadowy, wolvish elvish character of mine. Or maybe start something new.
My biggest problem is my time zone, but there are a lot of players that are sometimes around in that time period usually. And with the fact that I am about to start GMing Shadowrun again and even look into running an evening or two for a DnD group, I am ashamed that I am not doing more here. Perhaps we should see what each of us can do to make this more enjoyable. Maybe structural changes, too - for example, letting the community have a say in things like World Leader Applications. Some things that are interesting are already underway in terms of presenting writing to others (some sort of reward, perhaps?) - thanks rowana!
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 02, 2012, 08:15:46 am
Quote from: Nom
Allow entrey for basic characters (Fighter,Wizard,Rogue Good align) without having to jump through the hoops that are the admission process.

As was said elsewhere, this is already the case. Simple characters don't need much more than a paragraph or two. Read the policies we updated most recently. What you are commenting on is old information.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 02, 2012, 09:48:17 am
I just dont think you're asking the right question, or enough questions.

1. How can we get our name out there so more people can see us and come try our world?

(The question that should tie directly into question #1)
2. How do we keep them interested in our world and continuing to log in?

3. How can we regain players who moved on?


I can indeed understand the issues having been a GM here, and still being on the content team here. (content system needs work which I wont discuss here)

Is it time to recruit again into the GM team, content teams etc? Or are we so thin that the interest in such positions isnt even there?


About the calendar being slammed with meaningless quests... I kind of disagree with that comment. Why does every quest need to be a multi part (in current cases multi month) series? Why cant we rescue some lost adventurer? Save some obscure town from a seige of orcs, goblins, purple cows with flaming horns, etc.. Find someone lost dog and return it. Have a good old fashioned dungeon crawl, puzzle solving quests, or exploratory quests? Why? Because no one is setting them up or turnout has been to low that the GM's quit trying (not facts jsut my guesses there).

How to solve that? get more players in game at any given time... LOL I know thats the question you asked at the get go... :P Dont get me wrong I love how we the players can truly make a mark on the world... Enzo has done this in having a temple for Folian added to Dregar and other things too. And I was thrilled to get the chance. But heck... ive had as much fun on quests that when done truly had no impact on the world at all.
.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: RollinsCat on August 02, 2012, 10:14:24 am
Throwing in.

CA is in my opinion fine - they do a great job.  I think that we as a community need to set a foundation of roleplay expectations up front.  As many have said, our niche is rp.  Much as I want more people on - what's a bard without an audience? - I don't want the password to unlock and then get "hey can u give me gold? tx! lol!" tells.  Ever.

Reading through all this the suggestion that resonates the most is Milt's.  This place is where a lot of us get a gaming fix because our tabletop games have faded over the years and we're still geeks deep in our geeky little hearts.  So a "weekly gaming" or "bi-weekly gaming" session is perfect.  You are involved, enjoying gm/player interaction, and the rest of the time there is still a game that can be explored, rp that can be done, chat with friends, crafting.  I'd like to put the onus on both sides of the equation though.  If a gm puts aside regular time, you do too.  I closed Tues nights off for the next year so I can devote that to  Milt and Masterjack's wonderful, engaging quest.  Alatriel is also running a long-term series that includes those in GMT who often slip through the eastern-dominated cracks.  Lonn is running an open-enrollment series Weds nights.  And you know what?  We're showing up.   We're talking about it. Same with Nimrod/Nova's famine quest.  It's driving conversations and actions.  

So yeah.  One hundred percent with Milt.  It does push work onto the gms, but as we've seen, that can be bi-weekly or less and still shape rp and the world.

Just want to touch on impromptus - in the Deep the other night, some weird things happened.  Nothing critical, no tpw's, just a sense of being chased by something.  Someone was having a bit of fun and it spiced things up.  From stuff that spawns quests (Lonn impromptu at the Buckle) to stuff like the Deep thing, or even a mouse running around the arena or someone's kitchen, those little things really make the world too.

Can't make suggestions without also saying what's gone right: The evolution of Layo has done good things.  Center, now a place forming it's own history and a great meeting place; the loosening (but not opening) of the CA process to "just right"; graceful pleas, which I understand were not always so; the new rules on char quests (awesome!!).  All great steps taken as a community to make the world work for gms and for players.  So even as you suggest stuff, keep in mind that changes do come and they're good ones.

//cheerleading off *chuckle*
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: gilshem ironstone on August 02, 2012, 10:46:02 am
I don't know if the questions of how to entice people to Layo and how to keep them are entirely related but perhaps more like a Venn diagram.  You can make all the fantastic changes you want, but if no one knows about it, it does not matter a lick.  The "Field of Dreams" model applied at the genesis of Layo I think, but maybe not now.  This is not to throw out the consideration of how content keeps people here entirely, but in this particular thread, we are being asked "How do we get the word out to the public?" and so if we explore that topic first, then maybe it will lead us to some logical extensions on how to deal with G's question #2.

An idea that struck me is to approach the good people at "Fear the Boot" and see if we can't get them to discuss and glorify what we are doing here.  I certainly think it is unique enough to merit a segment on their podcast.  You could get Leanthar or some other spokesperson who enjoys the limelight to chat with them about the history of Layo and the period of transition that we are in.  Ripple this idea out to any other popular internet hang-outs for roleplayers, and you are communicating with your niche.

I think that it is very important to establish a presence in as many RP communities as possible so that they know where we are, what we do and how much fun it is.  I will also agree with G that the conversation of how to keep them loyal is a very important one that if it is not fully addressed here, does need to be looked at elsewhere, often and closely.  Our "product" is all we have and all we can control, so lets make it the best it can be.  I know that this is what the Team wants as well, and I applaud everything that they continue to do, but I think it is always important to remind ourselves to never settle when there is an opportuniy for improvement.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: gilshem ironstone on August 02, 2012, 10:55:19 am
Oh!  Fan fiction (or GM fiction, written with aid by the community) that is posted elsewhere on the internet, and gives information that could lead newcomers directly in to ongoing quests.  Not making them central, but giving them a ready-made tie-in.  A quester's version of having a password for a sale.  If a player shows up and can deliver info XYZ to the GM it could open up a new avenue in the quest.  For example, and this is totally by the seat of my pants because I am not involved in any quests, write a story about a messengers epic, marathon-like journey from Castle Imjam to Mariner's Hold.  It could be a classic tale of the journey through the dark forest.  Once the messenger arrives they deliver their message to some emissary, "Beware the Countess of Desjardins!  She is a vampire!".  The reader is then told that they can make a character in Layo who overheard the message, come to the quest, and reveal that there is a secret cult of vampires in their midst!

Might need some refinement but could give new players an instant hook.  Although it might not be fair to players who have devoted more time, I think it pays them off too by having a bigger player base to interact with.

Come on brain... Make more ideas....
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on August 02, 2012, 11:26:09 am
Very well put, Gilshem. /// EDIT: This was typed and posted before your second post, Gilshem, in which I think you are attempting to come up with ideas to address exactly what I am talking about in this post. ///

There is one other thing I think needs to be addressed when considering potential growth through reaching out to other folks in our 'niche', and that thing is to already have the planning and infrastructure to support adding the new people. Right now, I don't feel like we have that. Sure, we have a game client that people can roam and explore and spend time RPing with each other, but as has already been mentioned here and elsewhere, the NWN client is not what will draw or keep people here. Once they get NWN working, they start mucking about the place, only to discover that it's not a standard video game world, leveling isn't fast, and it's designed for group play but no one is online. If we're going to reach out to those niche communities that might be interested in a highly immersive RP online environment, we need to be ready to receive the new players with more than just a 'go have a look around/come check us out' sort of spiel.

I'd say to go with a plan (and of course, I'm going to keep coming back to the theme of the Weekly Gaming Session) that looks something like this: "Hey! So we're Layonara, and this is what we're about, and this is how you can leave lasting impressions on this world and RP in a deeply immersive environment. If you join right now, we've got a three new weekly quest series starting each with five slots open for new people, and you can be automatically started into one of those series. Consider this your new online home for a weekly gaming session, pen-and-paper style."

I like this kind of plan because not only are we getting the word out to our niche, but we are giving them a distinct place in the world/game from the start. We're saying, "Hey, we have the infrastructure [GMs] and the perfect place [weekly session] for you to get going into the Layo world."

If you get those fifteen new people counting on that weekly gaming experience, they become friends, they fall in love with their characters, you give them a story they won't forget over the next year each series runs (whether it's a true year-long series, or just a weekly gaming session of one-shots quests, or a mix), they will stick around. They will tell other people about their experience. They will invite other people to join them. They will want to become GMs. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Teo on August 02, 2012, 12:41:02 pm
Maybe the players need to start spreading the word. I know that I started playing Layo when Merlin34 told me about it. Maybe if the topic of games comes up between a player and one of his friends, they could mention Layo. And if that person tries it and enjoys it, he would tell one of his friends, ect.

Just a cheap, simple way to advertise the world.

And prehaps give new members a starting up quest, just a little impromptu, that they won't forget, give them a little push towards loving the great story of Layo.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Nehetsrev on August 02, 2012, 12:41:40 pm
To take Gilshem's idea a step further, why not actually take the time to create 5 playable, pre-approved characters that can be referenced in the hook-story for the new players to use when they come, allowing them to pick a character and jump right into the game?  You could still allow the new players the opton to create their own unique characters if they didn't like any of the pre-generated ones, but they'd have to go through the normal character approval process for those.
 
For example, using the vampire cult scenario.  The story might tell of five individuals who were with the messenger and survived the initial discovery of the vampire coven, fleshing out some details about each of these five courageous (or not so courageous) persons who chose to stay behind to fight the vampires while the messenger ran for help.  Perhaps one or two of these five were captured by the vampires and are being held for some ritual of nefarious purpose, or simply as stead food-sources, and it's up to the long time players to find them, free them, and help them overcome the vampire plot.
 
Just an additional brain-storm here, but thought, "Why not share it?"
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 02, 2012, 02:58:44 pm
Look at this from a different angle if you can and you may see where I am coming from.

Forget that you have been here X number of years.... You just now discovered Layo last week. You join and play... with the lack of quests, lack of things to come in items, areas, lack of players online etc.... would you stay? So why would "John Q Roleplayer" stay when we discover this new and awesome way to reach out to him?  

That's why I think #2 (keep them interested) is every bit as important as finding this new way to reach potential players.

.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: RollinsCat on August 02, 2012, 03:14:15 pm
Keep them interested is everyone's job regardless of what hat they wear.  One thing we can all do is take time to give a tell, say hi, welcome, if you have any questions, let me know if you need help with a quest - I think most of us do this already.  Give them an idea of what to expect, what gm quests are open for people to jump into, and start up some non-gm rp to get them enjoying things.  If this reaching out and expanding is to work we have to be willing to act as ambassadors of the world we love and offer something to keep them returning if there isn't much going on - language lessons, tutoring, weekly adventure groups, whatever.

speaking of which, overdue to run a Buckle event!
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Gunther on August 02, 2012, 03:36:46 pm
Both Rollins and G have valid points, but I dont think greeting and making people feel welcome is sufficient.  Not in Layo.  I vaguely recall a Chongo post that stated the encounters are geared towards groups, they're downright deadly to a single player.  Especially so to a new player.  The static quests are entertaining - for Gunther.  Death on a stick for a level 7 anything to try some of them.

There just arent enough people to form groups to make the quests safe for the newbies.  I will and have taken people on quests, but I also collect silk for Andrew, purple mushrooms for Angels, corn for Elohanna, and silver for Jils.  And somebody asked Gunther to collect alexandrite awhile ago, I dont even remember who that was (by the way whoever you are, I have some alexandrite for you).

Unfortunately, not enough people for the newbies to safely quest with just leads back to the whole marketing issue and getting people to come here.  But then they wont stay, because they just get repeatedly slaughtered.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Nehetsrev on August 02, 2012, 03:44:13 pm
Oh, another aspect I forgot to touch upon with the pre-generated characters associated with those hook-story quest lines... in creating the character bio, you could work in bits of lore such as demographic information, local customs, religious holidays and such for the place from which these characters come from.  Help introduce Layonara lore right from the get-go.
 
I seem to recall a while back something mentioned about dividing up the world into areas between the active DM's, making them experts on lore for their corner of the world, so to speak.  Imagine then, these pre-generated characters with their bios portraying aspects from whatever area of the world they came from, and the players/characters then in a sense becomming living lore depositories, sharing those personal bits of lore with everyone they encounter.  To use an existing character as an example, I like playing with Andrew Reid because he does that.  He adds that oriental feeling 'Huang-Jin' flare to his RP that makes his character stand out and as a result feel more alive and real, and more a part of the world of Layonara.
 
Anyhow that's the rest of that brainstorm from earlier...
 
As to the next 'Buckle event, make sure the Wayward Wildside Trio is invited to make an appearance.  They're awesome!
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: gilshem ironstone on August 02, 2012, 03:45:01 pm
Quote from: Guardian 452
Look at this from a different angle if you can and you may see where I am coming from.

Forget that you have been here X number of years.... You just now discovered Layo last week. You join and play... with the lack of quests, lack of things to come in items, areas, lack of players online etc.... would you stay? So why would "John Q Roleplayer" stay when we discover this new and awesome way to reach out to him?  

That's why I think #2 (keep them interested) is every bit as important as finding this new way to reach potential players.

.


I see your point, but how did I find out about Layo last week?  That's my point.  I think #2 is important, but lets let that be another issue for another thread.  If we stay focused on one issue at a time, we can make some good progress; at least that is what I believe.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Teo on August 02, 2012, 03:45:52 pm
Maybe there could be more quests based around one or two people, rather than parties, since the whole thing this thread is about is the fact that there aren't enough people to make a big party with on the server at one time normally. Or maybe some solo quests made more about role play and roles, like persuade checks and bluff checks, since mostly the quests are easier for fighters, and a bard or wizard without a party can't do much. And it would give newer players more taste for the role play.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 02, 2012, 04:10:51 pm
Quote from: Guardian 452
Look at this from a different angle if you can and you may see where I am coming from.

Forget that you have been here X number of years.... You just now discovered Layo last week. You join and play... with the lack of quests, lack of things to come in items, areas, lack of players online etc.... would you stay? So why would "John Q Roleplayer" stay when we discover this new and awesome way to reach out to him?  

That's why I think #2 (keep them interested) is every bit as important as finding this new way to reach potential players.

.

G, please explain how there is a lack of areas, items and things to do for new players?  We have a staggering number of both.  Sure, maybe some in the current population would find them old and stale, but for a new player, there's literally hundreds of areas to explore and probably hundreds of items that are unique to Layonara on top of all the boring and usual items found elsewhere.

I get where you're trying to go with your comment, mostly, but some of your examples don't make any sense at all when talking about new players.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Hellblazer on August 02, 2012, 05:15:31 pm
Quote from: Dorganath
G, please explain how there is a lack of areas, items and things to do for new players?  We have a staggering number of both.  Sure, maybe some in the current population would find them old and stale, but for a new player, there's literally hundreds of areas to explore and probably hundreds of items that are unique to Layonara on top of all the boring and usual items found elsewhere.

I get where you're trying to go with your comment, mostly, but some of your examples don't make any sense at all when talking about new players.


Think he meant safely for a single player to do since there's not a lot of people around on a constant basis to assure that the new players that come here will have people to party up with.

There was a time where us north americans.. and south too.. had a hard time to get on group or quests because the majority of the players/gm at that time were in the uk time zones. now it's the other way around. The majority of quests are in the america's time zones, with the exception of those run at times to allow the euro's to get on them. That tells me that the switch of time zone also occurred with the switch of when and where the most players play. So if you advertise to new people, who are unfortunately in the euro's time zone, and there's not enough people or gm event to carter for them, they will be stuck. Which I think touches to what G and others may be saying.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 02, 2012, 09:34:57 pm
Dorg

In my example I was speaking of Layonaras past what seemed like nearly constant growth, in the areas of new items, classes, races, areas etc. vs. now that "newness" in these categories seems to be far less frequent. We DO HAVE loads of areas now, LOADS of items now I am not disputing this fact.  So many items and areas in fact that in both areas we literally have no more room for more, unless we remove some (do correct me if I am wrong on that). I think that this "no vacancy" could even be behind the reason why we dont see any new areas coming, new items coming etc. Its a lot of work to figure out what we can shave off and not have people crying foul. This I believe falls back onto what I said before about the content side of things not working so well (too slowly) these days.

If you are talking about new plauers basically remove the entire second server from the conversation with "new players" especially all of the deep, Rift, and all the other high level, level up, group up or die areas. Saying they can explore these areas as a new player is silly cause we know they will die often.. pick up tokens... sit and wait on reflections... feel useless, get frustrated and leave. Certainly not what we want to happen!

That leaves a far more limited "playing field" for "new players"... so lets see if what "new people" have to roam is enough, too much or could use more, and go from there. If needed removing existing areas that arent used as often or arent newbie friendly to cater to these "new people" we all agree the server needs to survive.

.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 02, 2012, 09:56:05 pm
Quote from: gilshem ironstone
I see your point, but how did I find out about Layo last week?  That's my point.  I think #2 is important, but lets let that be another issue for another thread.  If we stay focused on one issue at a time, we can make some good progress; at least that is what I believe.


How did I (or the other hundreds of people) find Layonara ? I found Layonara in October 2003.... No facebook, no twitter, no google+.. I still found the place on a simple search.. and so did a couple others back in the day.... ;)

I want to agree with you gilshem but I just cant. #2 is every bit as critical. Would you buy a new or used car from the dealership purely on what the dealer told you and the exterior appearance? Heck no.. you would want to see the inside.. take it for a spin.. kick the tires and see how it reacts. If you saw a beautiful car parked in the lot... but it didnt drive quite like you expected, wasnt quite the right color, and needed some more work in the interior and engine... would you write them a check or keep looking?

Layonara has a killer core community, we have outstanding roleplayers. Is that all we need to seal the deal? If so... then you are right deal with #2 later.

If I found Layo last week/ last month etc. and gave it a test run with the current community size, direction of the world etc. I'm sorry to say I would have probably not have stuck around and continued to look elsewhere for my gaming fix.

.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 02, 2012, 10:46:59 pm
Taking West alone, there are 557 areas.  Even if you take out...let's say 125 of those for player housing, GM-only and quest areas, you're still left with 432 areas on a single server geared toward lower-level characters. Though I agree with taking Central out of the picture, it has even more explorable areas.

I think your real complaint is that you, as an experienced, long-time player has seen all or most of them, and you're tired of the same scene.  Am I far off here?  These are all fair observations, but you cannot really apply that same perspective to a new player.  Over 400 areas, of which 2/3rds of them are quite likely adventuring areas to some extent or the other, is not a small world by any stretch. The comments about challenge level are good, but then there's the question of what's the right way to "fix" it?  It's very circular. Make them easier? OK, but what happens when we get more people taking a run at the same places? Are they too easy now. Do we re-balance them again? Or do we focus on getting more people on at a time and hope the momentum holds? Which is better? I don't know.  Do you? I think the answer to that depends on one's perspective.

Compared to when I started, which is somewhat after you started, the West module alone is somewhere between 50% and 100% larger now than it was then.  Sure, there was growth then, but there could be. The problem is, we're hitting real technical limitations with the size of our modules now. It's similar to but different from the palette issue.  The point is, to "grow" what's available, we have to look at taking things away or make small, incremental changes and hope they don't break. That, or we have to have a major overhaul like we had with v3 several years ago.  I know I don't have time for such a project.  Do you?

Regarding the content system being "too slow", I'm not going to discuss that here. We can take it up in the Project Team forum if you wish; this is not the place for it.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Teo on August 02, 2012, 11:02:14 pm
Maybe we need to start thinking back to how we found Layo, and what kept us hooked, and then try to resurface those more if they have dissipated and maybe make more of it if it is still around. There is a great community here, but why do we stay? For many of us, it is the love of our characters. But maybe it's time to think back to when we first joined, and what made us like it.

When I first joined I was only 9, and I mainly enjoyed playing with my dad, Merlin34. That may not be the greatest of examples, but its all I have. But each and every active player has one of those examples, and that's a fair enough sample size to make an assumption on what people are looking for, and focus something onto that in game or on the forums or elsewhere.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 03, 2012, 12:31:42 am
I find myself seeing new areas often... when enough people are on when I get to play that is. I know their is even some high end areas on West too. So those as well get removed from the new player scenario. Its not about me saying... been there done that. So give me personally something new....Or Id have asked for more areas geared to my characters specifically, not the new players we're trying to bring in. I'm fully aware of the limits we are have reached inside the NWN toolset regarding areas, and items etc. Which is why I suggested we go thru what we have and determine if its good for new players or we needed to change this and that... remove some things and add some to cater to the new folks.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Gunther on August 03, 2012, 12:48:02 am
What worked for me was a sense of discovery, this was comprised of a couple factors which may not be practical anymore, but anyway;

1)  Going to Hlint and seeing a crowd gathered around Ozy, listening to his stories and/or prevarications.  This also held true for Rhizome and others who almost always seemed to have time to devote to new players and their questions.

2)  Bruenor Wildbeard and one or two others that would take groups of newbies and lowbies on quests or just out to kill something.  Or a bunch of somethings.  This enabled Gunther to get to a level where he could almost fend for himself.  Once Gunther got to that point then I felt confident in signing up for quests, mining ore for crafting, and exploring more of layo.  Whatever may have been said about old Bruenor, he was an extrovert and went out of his way to invite people on trips and make them feel welcome.

Anyway, thats what worked for me way back when.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 03, 2012, 01:02:41 am
I started in October 2003, I found Layo by a general search for NWN persistent worlds. Layo was my first.. and my only NWN persistent world Ive played. ive played Everquest 2 and LOTRO neither of which I have found equal RP and ive even steered away from wanting to RP on other games.... not sure why.
When I stated playing Layo I was instantly welcomed with open arms by lots of people who were playing back then. Made to feel a part of the community from almost day 1. Earned my chance to GM here and have been a member of the content team here (off and on).
The main thing that drew me in was the Roleplay and the intensity that it could deliver... from anger to the point of wanting to punch a wall. To being so worked up by what was happening to my character and my friends that I was crying and hands shaking so bad I could no longer type. And a rainbow of emotions in between.
Also the number of people playing.... was great at nearly anytime of day you could see a dozen people on... not just when a quest was happening...  out doing their thing.. killing, crafting, roleplaying etc. The level gap wasnt what it is now... so anyone could run with about anybody and not feel worthless like today when a level 9 tries to keep up with a bunch of epics.

Ive always been a crafting addict and always will be even with my hatred of d20 LOL... im still crafring ;)

Ive had gaps of burn out with Layo and went off to persue other games... Everquest2, LOTRO (Lord Of The Rings Online), Battlefield 3. I always find myself coming back to try and feel that old spark again. Truly though its never been the same as it was those first few years. Why? probably because my own RL changes stopped allowing me to play 5 to 8 hours or more each day here. No longer feeling like I was truly connected to the world and having my finger on the pulse of things. Another reason why I said before I doubted if I were just now discovering Layonara that I probably wouldnt stick around. I wouldnt have had the same addicted reaction that I did back then. With less players here now, less quests, less signs of new things on the horizion.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: LordCove on August 03, 2012, 10:45:30 am
I had wrote a lot, but it took me so long to do that I was logged out and forgot to copy it.

So summed up...

" Make the early level's of Layo solo-able"

No one likes to log on to an new, empty server, wander around for ten minutes and get killed by a rat... or a skeleton... or skunk.
Even if they find a group, chances are its a group of epics , of which 90% of the current community is....
Infact, most of what I was going to write is already echoed in other peoples posts.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Nehetsrev on August 03, 2012, 11:21:22 am
I'm part of that 10% minority of players who's never really had an epic character....  well okay, there was Amgine, but he permed almost immediately after reaching level 21.  He had a couple really bad strings of rolls versus the Soul Mother in his earlier levels.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: xsweetpeaxs on August 03, 2012, 08:55:40 pm
Here is an idea to hasten the leveling of the early levels seeing how a lot of people complains about slow leveling and not being able to travel with groups because everyone is "epic":

First of all, everyone can agree agree getting from level 1-7 is pretty quick? Doing all the static quests get you there almost instantaneously. Then, it starts to slow down dramatically.

So, an alternative to leveling can be this, from level 8 to level 9, if player X goes on 3 quests, he/she gets the level. Or, he/she can still get level by the "old grind for xp" method.

Then from level 9 to level 10, if player X goes on 3 quests (or 4), he/she gets the level. Or, he/she can still get level by the "old grind for xp" method.

This can continue on until level 20?

The number of quests is arbitrary. I just made that up. Obviously, the Team can decide what is fair. With this idea, players can level more quickly by going on quests and getting involved with RP instead of having to "grind it out." Once they are higher, they can explore more of Layo without the fear of getting killed by a "rat, skeleton, skunk, etc." They will also have more opportunities to travel in larger group to join the old timers that are "epic."

Just a thought :)
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: jadewillow on August 03, 2012, 10:41:43 pm
I agree with almost everything already said, so I'm not going to repeat. Although I've been with Layonara since 2005, I consider myself a casual player. With three young children my time is not my own, and I basically log in between crisis (whenever those may occur). As a result, the set time slot for quests does not work well for me and I suspect for others with similar time constraints. That being said, I think the community needs to focus on those things that make Layonara unique, not the things it is not (which is a long list). Below are a few of those things the community should be marketing or developing further in order to attract more players.

1. The Soul Mother is certainly a differentiator for Layo. Don't touch it! Although maybe as a reward for good RP, give out Soul Mother protection items (i.e. for your next death you are shielded from her sight), or provide an avenue (very difficult avenue) for getting strands back. The GP system was a great start, but I think even more options would be better and give players alternatives to leaving Layonara.

2. Another big draw for Layo is the LORE. It is deep and alive and makes the world seem real. Don't change it. Keep augmenting it, and making it even more a part of the world.

3. Another great part of Layo is the ability to make real lasting impacts on the world. However, the casual player is kind of left out of this if they can't make the numerous world events. If there were a way to allow casual players to participate even though they may not be able to attend these quests on a regular basis. And I am not talking about Forums stuff, I'm talking IG participation.

4. An lastly is the great RP community here and intimate setting. Yes we want more players, but we never want to lose that feeling of knowing the people you come across in the world. Let's try to preserve that.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Teo on August 03, 2012, 11:10:06 pm
jadewillow makes a great point.

The bounty board was a great quest for casual players, you could log on at any time and role play and have a quick adventure, with or without a GM or party. Prehaps do something with the plot like that, set it up and then let an adventurer go through the adventure and make an impact, even if he/she cant find a party. It would keep people feeling involved, even if they play in a time zone where not many people are on with them.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 04, 2012, 12:51:35 am
Quote from: Teo
Maybe we need to start thinking back to how we found Layo, and what kept us hooked, and then try to resurface those more if they have dissipated and maybe make more of it if it is still around. There is a great community here, but why do we stay? For many of us, it is the love of our characters. But maybe it's time to think back to when we first joined, and what made us like it.

When I first joined I was only 9, and I mainly enjoyed playing with my dad, Merlin34. That may not be the greatest of examples, but its all I have. But each and every active player has one of those examples, and that's a fair enough sample size to make an assumption on what people are looking for, and focus something onto that in game or on the forums or elsewhere.


Everyone go home, 'cuz this guy hit the nail head on. :U

But in all seriousness, Teo makes an excellent point. We should poll together the ideas of what hooked us. as individuals. Then take that and think about how we can bring that back around.

In my case, I joined several years back. I would try to calculate my age at the time I joined, but that's trivial (and I'm not old enough to be complaining about my age anyhow). Regardless, I was looking for something that I was interested in. D&D, like an actual PnP campaign, but online. Unlike recently, I haven't had the opportunity or the contacts to join any PnP games because of 1) where I live and 2) the community I live in has a general lack of people who enjoy this kind of activity (those weirdos don't know what they are missing. :U).

So I hunted around online for all but, Iunno... 3 minutes? I had my first character written up rather quickly, and I was chomping at the bit waiting for approval. NEEDLESS to say, I won't go into the bit about Rowana scolding me (sorry Row :3 ). But as soon as I got in, what had me hooked was exportability. The place was huge. HUGE. GINORMOUS. I felt like I could fit half a dozen earth's into layo. Which is good for an online campaign, because the worst thing about ANY videogame is the limitation of movement and travel. The second part? well, I'll get to that in a second... :U teehee.


Quote from: Gunther
What worked for me was a sense of discovery, this was comprised of a couple factors which may not be practical anymore, but anyway;

1)  Going to Hlint and seeing a crowd gathered around Ozy, listening to his stories and/or prevarications.  This also held true for Rhizome and others who almost always seemed to have time to devote to new players and their questions.

2)  Bruenor Wildbeard and one or two others that would take groups of newbies and lowbies on quests or just out to kill something.  Or a bunch of somethings.  This enabled Gunther to get to a level where he could almost fend for himself.  Once Gunther got to that point then I felt confident in signing up for quests, mining ore for crafting, and exploring more of layo.  Whatever may have been said about old Bruenor, he was an extrovert and went out of his way to invite people on trips and make them feel welcome.

Anyway, that's what worked for me way back when.


SO second point! The community is great. It really is. But with any 2-bit noob who arrives on his/her first day like I did, after the initial overload from the small bits of exploration, a sudden dread sets in...

Quote

"Ermahgerd... I have to TALK TO PEOPLE." *Proceeds to rip hair out*


Some of us don't really know where to start. Or even how to get something going. In my case, I read some rather stringent looking rules about OOC chat, so I didn't send a tell to anyone. :Y for like... a week. And I think Erin or Jil were the first to send me a poke.

It was after overcoming that first bit that I actively looked for new players whenever I joined the server, because I wanted them to feel welcome and immersed IMMEDIATELY. I feel it goes a long way to have someone help show you the ropes from the get go. And I didn't want them to wait a week like I did.  ;n;

Now, this isn't to say "oh jebus, the first time here is bad." It's quiet the opposite. And I had a blast playing my first character after I finally figured out who was doing those "let's drag the newbies on a suicide mission and laugh at them", because it's those bits that I derive the most enjoyment from. Not quests, or Red Light runs, but those small gatherings where everyone may or may not shout at each other for 10 minutes because they are dwarves. *cough* :3


So off to the third point.


Quote from: Nehetsrev
I'm part of that 10% minority of players who's never really had an epic character....  well okay, there was Amgine, but he permed almost immediately after reaching level 21.  He had a couple really bad strings of rolls versus the Soul Mother in his earlier levels.


I enjoyed the slow leveling. Sure, it's frustrating to have a squirrel take your nuts and not being strong enough to do jack diddly squat about it (It should never happen D:< but it does anyways. besides, it makes for good horror stories). But it deters grinding (which bores me) and it pushes people to be more group oriented. Running off on your own and soloing some big bad is nice once and a while, but what makes roleplay fun is the story that YOU write. And a story with no interaction is kinda sad (relatively speaking). The fact that Layo forgoes the focus on increasing your character's level in favor of character driven story directed by the players themselves is great, and that is what makes Layo what it is.

Now, that all being said, it can also get frustrating for some older players to make a new character and start at zero. No one comes to show you the ropes because you already know them silly. :U But it's still difficult to get a foot up because usually, a lot of folks are on their "more grown up" characters, and from a in character perspective, a level 21 and up, by nature of some perceived power and status, would likely find it hard to relate to a green ear who just rose out of the dirt. Sure, they're better then average, so to speak, but they are still level 1. And let's face it. there isn't a whole lot a lvl 1 and a lvl 21 character would do beside RP a conversation or another at some location where deer wouldn't rip the teeth out of the lvl 1 character. Not to imply that NOTHING can be done, but more often then not, as a player, you're looking for a little action as well, so that usually, as I perceive it, stops some of the interaction.

This is why occasionally, provided I have enough planning room, I'm going to try and coordinate some events for just lower level characters to derp around with. By lower, I mean under lvl 20. And by derping around, I mean 20% running some moderate static quest, and 80% doing something else as a group. Developing story, relationship, and/or shenanigans. Why? Because some of the best experiences I have had on Layo didn't have any sort of reward attached to them, because the interaction and fun had was the reward itself.

...

Okay, I'm done now. :U *cough*

EDIT: Almost lost this because I got logged out... LOL
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 04, 2012, 12:52:34 am
._.


I think that is the most constructive feedback I have ever given here on Layo... I kinda feel bad now... LOL
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Teo on August 04, 2012, 01:03:41 am
I don't know how, but maybe its time to start a poll thread on why we came here and another on why we stayed? Or just a normal thread for JUST those to things, rather than everyone's ideas on how to improve so it's easier for the GM team to sort it out?
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: tom bombadill on August 04, 2012, 02:00:09 pm
Greetings all,

I am most likely unfamiliar to most of you unless you have a great memory. I haven't been on the server for about 5 years. I started layonara at the end of V1. I have never had a character who made it past lvl 10 so I never made any large impressions to the world  but i hope many small ones. For those who may remember my most gregarious character was Amalric Gniess a paladin of Rofirein. I have been lurking for a while now debating if i should attempt to join back into the server and in the meantime i started to grind in DDO which actually feels like a meaning less job. I hesitated coming back as I have a large family and the quality of RP here is top notch which can become quite distracting and if your sweetie isn't a gamer then she begins to frown at me for all the hours i spend killing red light goblins instead of pruning the hedges.

How i found Layonara is like some of the other posts in this thread. I wanted quality PnP style gaming that i used to have growing up. In 2002ish (i think) I web searched and found layonara joined and was very pleased with what the community had created. It is a harsh world and i love that. low magic makes you value simple things like a potion of healing. my iron weapon made me proud for a while. To see the server so empty and assuming the world is similar to how i last saw it I wonder if I will enjoy myself or feel restricted and frustrated that i cant explore and play casually without a quest in case family calls and i need to log at random times. One thing that will help here is I now have some children who can join me and  that is the main reason for coming back. I know this is a family friendly place and I will sometimes have at least one or two other people to adventure with. I know if the usual quests are not in my time zone or working for me schedule wise it is possible to CDQ and that is amazing considering if i wanted that on another MMO I would likely have to pay $20 an hour, but as far i know (which is little about MMO's) its not even an option.

I have no suggestions on how to get people to find Layonara. I don't know how you are doing it now. But i did have a thought about how to deal with the low server population and starting characters. maybe its already in game i dont know. How about introducing Hirelings? It is unrealistic to think a bard is going to venture into a goblin lair and slay the chieftan. a fighter maybe. but if that bard could hire some fighters and  venture into the lair and use his skills how they are supposed to be used instead of feeling like a gimpy fighter who might be able to sing about it later if he isn't cooked in goblin stew, then that player will be happy he can exist and RP what he wants instead of wondering how to "tweek his toon to be leet" find out that isn't possible then leave. I don't fault those people it' s likely all they know as they never played PnP and discovered the romance of true RP adventure.

I will let those who deal with balancing issue handle the details of this but i would add a little more. In PnP charisma effected how many hires you could manage (I only played advanced DnD rule set so forgive me if my info is outdated). everyone should at least be able to hire one. I don't know how to avoid having a group of 4 players and then 10 more hires. but i do know that whenever Gm's found player exploiting areas or spawns or whatever it was typical for them to "modify" things a little which usually resulted in players running for there life or cautiously trying to sneak back and pray at there soulstone.

I would not think a person could hire a wizard or paladin or monk or druid but mostly fighters. they should probly max out at lvl 3 and require the player to be two or three times the hire lvl to contract. maybe it would be possible to hire a squishy cleric to heal if you had favor with the right church or temple. but i would not think a battle cleric would be for hire. the idea is to add some light support that with good tactic could allow a player to solo a little farther. a player would still consider becoming a fighter or cleric because a cleric in plate who can survive an ambush would still be someone to hug after the dust settled.

Well that is all for now, my Hak download is complete and i should start my character submission so i can get in today hopefully.

I would also like to thank Scott for all the good times i have had and hopefully that are to come. I am sure it has felt thankless at times or cost more than it should to him. I appreciate it and i am sure many others here and who may have come and gone do as well. I am sure they will never forget the adventures they had on Layonara.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 04, 2012, 04:38:48 pm
old players coming back for more are the best. :Y

as for being time conscientious, I'm sure a lot of us understand if RL calls you away. It does for everyone. So just stick around when you can and go when you can't. :D
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Xaltotun on August 04, 2012, 04:59:02 pm
That IS a name that blasts from the past - welcome back, and look forward to seeing you and yours in-game.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Olme on August 05, 2012, 08:35:49 am
Recruit Felicia Day
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: jadewillow on August 05, 2012, 10:09:56 am
Something that would certainly help with cuurent and past players would be an expected timeline for the MMO. I suspect many are hesitant investing much time not knowing it will pay off
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 05, 2012, 11:06:22 am
Ok so we know money is off the table... but what about some kind of "recruit & reward" system?

Dont know what the rewards would be... maybe a list to choose from like:
Minus 1 SS
25,000 EXP or some percentage based on your level
A mount
Something(s) unique you wont get any other way than by recruiting people to join. Like say a positive damage enhancement, a troll ear, some kinf of enique resistance enhancement, things like that

I admit the reason I thought of this is because im pushing a close friend of mine hard to join layo... ive been on him to for years and I finally got him interested.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Ne'er on August 05, 2012, 05:51:26 pm
Hey everyone,

So most of you probably don't remember me, since my heyday at Layonara was well over 5 years ago when I was both an avid player and a GM. I've been in and out since, but I've since retired completely from the game. But I do still check these forums every once in awhile, mostly to see how the MMO is progressing and who is still around. I thought since you're looking for input, I might have some from the "old player's perspective."

When I first started at Layonara, I was about 13 years old and in love with computer RPGs like NWN. Naturally, that pushed me into looking for some decent online play. I didn't have any desire to play necessarily on a roleplaying server, but as luck would have it I ended up on Layonara, mostly through chance after searching for a good server. Everyone in the game was quite friendly, and the world seemed so huge and interesting. I made one character, and then another, and then another, until at one point I made a character named "Jet" that I grew fairly attached to. I saw players doing very exciting things, like the Grand Opening of the Leilon Arms, and I saw some very exciting quests at nearly every hour of the day.

I liked it so much that I wanted to help out. I applied to be a GM and started working on CDQs and other major questlines and to this day those are some of my fondest memories here. But at some point the magic started to wear thin.

----

So now that my experience is laid bare, my advice:

If you're looking for brand new players, good luck. The truth is (and its clear from the MMO threads that you acknowledge this), NWN is a dying engine, and you'll be hard pressed to convince new players that they should run out and find an old copy of NWN to play. Especially considering the number of games coming out today and huge RPGs on the horizon, pulling people into the past is going to be near impossible. Obviously the intent to rectify this is part of the mentality of the MMO, but if the community bleeds dry before then, it hasn't done much good.

Obviously you'd want to pull from the players that are part of the hardcore RP side of the gaming industry. To do that, I'd recommend either advertising or building a presence on forums or boards dedicated to similiar interests (specifically the PnP style gaming that so many people have already cited). Additionally, making information about the Layonara setting and history available to a broader group could grip some of these gamers. Maybe by offering tid-bits from the Layonara in form of downloadable PDFs for tabletop gamers who are looking for an interesting and dynamic setting?

----

But truth be told, I think gathering new players will probably be a tremendously daunting task. Which brings me to why more effort should maybe be put on keeping current players or wooing back former players.

I was also one of those few players who never hit epic level. My highest level character was level 15, and he played in a time where level 15 was high. Then I watched as other players shot up in level past me, mostly due to the fact that they had more time to dedicate to quests than I did. As a result, the people I used to adventure with disappeared over the horizon as my character was stuck doing his usual grind. This was, in no small part, a factor for my leaving. I tried to make other characters work since, but I simply lost interest in playing in the same areas over and over. I've had some good experiences since then, but I mostly just ran off the nostalgia from older playthroughs. It may also be important to bear in mind that this was a rather tumultuous time in Layonara's life, since the MMO was being announced, a number of players and GMs were falling out with the larger community, and things were beginning to change at a rapid rate.

What could have kept me around? The ability to solo more places, or at least explore more places. The game naturally favors groups, and that makes sense. But for people who were on at odd times or were not at the same power level as those currently logged in, your options were really limited. To this day I swear that I have only explored (in character form) under 1/6th of what Layonara had to offer. To me, that was pretty sad. Especially because these areas required huge expeditions to work, ones that required oodles of time and only the cream of the crop could get on them since more would cause the server to crash. I understand. That's life. But it was still disappointing to know that, because I didn't have the same amount of time to play with everyone else, I wouldn't be able to see some of the more interesting things.

What keeps me from coming back is a mix of things. My last attempt to integrate into the community left a foul taste in my mouth. Yes, this was due to the CA process, and no, I'm not asking you to get rid of it. I don't know what's changed, but I really doubt that the CA process is the limiting factor here. The other major things are:

-Lack of players (not really helpful, I know)

-Lack of originality: Most of the things I would have easy access to if I played again I've either seen or seen a variation of it. I'll get bored and disheartened long before I have a character that I've become really attached to and has the strength to do truly new things for me.

-Better gaming outlets: As said before, NWN simply won't cut it. I can load up Skyrim if I just want to go somewhere and hack things to pieces.

-Viable RP alternatives: Instead of logging on to Layo for an RP fix, I can play in my semi-weekly PnP game for a somewhat substitutable experience. Granted, it isn't the same, but it functions as a substitute enough for me.

----

Anyway, I hope this is helpful in some way. If not, well... good luck?
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: jadewillow on August 06, 2012, 09:57:35 pm
I know the team is working on this, but new drops would add some spice that might attract some of our older players back.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 07, 2012, 01:15:48 am
What about a way for people new to Layonara to kind of get a feel for the place... almost like a training grounds... super low threat of death. Yet at the same time teaching people how things work in NWN, and in the world of Layonara. Lets face it... not everyone who is interested in Layonara and Roleplay knows the functionality of NWN, and some of the things we veterans take for granted..... Something a solo player can do. Come out of it and have picked up that second level (maybe even a third level too).. before being "tossed to the wolves" in Center and the rest of the Layo world.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on August 07, 2012, 09:41:13 am
It's true that NWN is now an old enough game that unless they have played the single player, they will not have had a tutorial on how to play within the game client. And then, of course, there is a huge number of other unique Layo things they will encounter right off the bat, such as the language ears, quests, LORE, etc, etc. So yeah, maybe offer an NWN tutorial option and a Layo tutorial option, with one or both leading to enough experience to reach level two or three. Of course, G-452, someone would have to build these tutorials... are you volunteering? :p
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 07, 2012, 10:57:08 am
I dont know the codeing aspect of it but I will give what I do know to the project... making areas, NPC's and anything else I can do or be taught to do. so yes I am volunteering
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Shiokara on August 07, 2012, 11:46:18 am
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
So yeah, maybe offer an NWN tutorial option and a Layo tutorial option, with one or both leading to enough experience to reach level two or three.


This is an awesome idea, particularly on the Layo side of things. Let's face it: if a veteran submits a new character in Layo, we all know how to hit level 4/5 within the span of an hour just by doing the fetch/delivery quests and hitting up the PoI's along the way.

A new player likely spends a great deal of time dying to packs of mobs he or she can't handle because the starting items don't really prepare one for any sort monster bashing at level one. Even killing packs of rats is rough for the lower-con characters. With only 400g, a player has to figure out armor, bandages, and a weapon.

Layo is an RP server primarily, and the difficulty encourages socialization. But if a new player logs in at a time when the server is empty or its few players are busy, then it is a pretty hard start.

I can give this useful OOC advice to new players:

Start at Center. Pick up healer and falcon delivery quests. Get garlic from area behind healer quest giver. You can (probably) kill the owls, but avoid bandits at all cost. (Optional: pick up message board xp in crafting hall. You might want to hold out on this, though, because you get much more xp for reading the signs later on.) Go North to Wayfare. Go North. Go West (follow the zone wall in Hallowlight). Go North to outskirts of Krandor. Pick up PoI, then get parcel delivery quest.

That's the start of it anyway. I know that by using these two quests in an intelligent way, the player can pick up PoIs at silkwood, krandor, silverdell grove, err...that one in Farmer Part's zone, and one in Central outside the temple (which the player can get by going for the relatively risk free aloe that's near there for the healer's quest). It was likely the designer's intent for the player to pick the aloe up from the kobolds from the fetch a stick quest, but those mobs can really hurt a new player. Additionally, the player can use all the back and forth from the fetch quests to pick up cheaper versions of the quest items (from Hemp/Vehl/Center) for Lieutenant Jursen's quest.

By this point, a player should be able to solo some of the other Hemp/Center/Vehl quests. After that, the player will really need to start collaborating with others.

Edit: This game's difficulty and tutorial is on the level of Dark Souls, but that's why I love it.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: lonnarin on August 07, 2012, 12:00:12 pm
While it has been stated that soul strands aren't going away, I wonder if numbers would improve if we did a few weekends here and there of Soul Strand Loss-Free weekends.  Everybody rolls 100 on the loss check for 48 hours.  Maybe a double-xp weekend?

We also have maybe 4 active quest GMs including myself.  Could stand to recruit a few more.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 07, 2012, 12:19:29 pm
Agree on all counts Lonn. adding a few more Double XP weekends or week days. (not everyone can play weekends folks) and it also has been a year + since the last GM recruitment. And Im most certainly for anything that has to do with the SoulMother going on Holiday... LOL ;)
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Teo on August 07, 2012, 10:15:41 pm
Maybe when you complete a quest, the NPC could refer you to a few more, like "My friend in the craft hall needs help with some bugs she found in her cellar" if you complete the crypt quest in Center, to keep newer characters knowing about quests.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on August 08, 2012, 09:39:46 am
Quote
Maybe when you complete a quest, the NPC could refer you to a few more, like "My friend in the craft hall needs help with some bugs she found in her cellar" if you complete the crypt quest in Center, to keep newer characters knowing about quests


I like that idea for the 'newbie' scripted quests.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dremora on August 08, 2012, 02:14:11 pm
Just implement dialogue informing the character to check the job board in the craft hall. It already points out locations of other quests I believe.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 09, 2012, 09:47:20 am
Quote from: Dremora
Just implement dialogue informing the character to check the job board in the craft hall. It already points out locations of other quests I believe.

 
My friend Drosk brought this to my attention. How does a person get to these other areas with low level'ish quests (like Krandor, or Vehl)? We have a very poor way of navigation in game, and the maps on LORe only help so much.. since much of what is on the map we cant add in game.

We need a few road signs, at least in the Center, Hempsted, Vehl, Wayfare regions of Mistone... so people know where they are going. Ive taken this for granted with each new character ive made.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: gilshem ironstone on August 09, 2012, 09:52:35 am
Quote from: Guardian 452
My friend Drosk brought this to my attention. How does a person get to these other areas with low level'ish quests (like Krandor, or Vehl)? We have a very poor way of navigation in game, and the maps on LORe only help so much.. since much of what is on the map we cant add in game.

We need a few road signs, at least in the Center, Hempsted, Vehl, Wayfare regions of Mistone... so people know where they are going. Ive taken this for granted with each new character ive made.


I always used the compass and map and I got around nicely.  I always thought it was a nice piece of immersion exploring that way.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 09, 2012, 09:55:27 am
Sure, and im not asking for hundreds of signs either. Like billboards plastered along a busy highway. Just a sign here, and a sign there nothing major, nothing that honestly wouldn't be there anyway, right? How does the general populace of Mistone get from A to B when they havn't gone that way before?
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: gilshem ironstone on August 09, 2012, 10:05:26 am
I hear you.  Honestly, I am not sure how common signs would be.  People would likely not travel across the continent often, perhaps even out of their county (or equivalent).  I assume there would be a lot of road following and oral tradition used to navigate, as well as landmarks.

That being said, signs here and there would prevent the accidental wandering in to the Dark Peaks of the Watcher (I did this), and I mean the dark part.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Alatriel on August 09, 2012, 10:09:57 am
There probably is a much higher illiterate population on Layonara than literate.  And, as far as the Dark Peaks go, there's a guy outside of that area that says not to go in there and beware.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: gilshem ironstone on August 09, 2012, 10:22:01 am
The Dark Peaks was brought up to be illustrative. There are lots of areas, near safe areas where a character, not just low-level can die pretty fast if unaware. Personally I like this, but the occasional sign might not be a bad idea. I know there are some on Alibdor and Belinara already.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: RollinsCat on August 09, 2012, 10:22:24 am
as another option, there is a lantern in Stormcrest that I know Acacea used to man (woman?).  When it was on guides to wherever were available.  Perhaps we the players, myself included, should start lighting that lantern once and a while and show the newer players how to get around.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 09, 2012, 10:55:04 am
There are others who have that lantern as well and it was designed as a semi sort of unspoken guild. The creator was Chongo and a handful of aged characters. I'm reticent to repurpose his efforts without feedback from him though someone could PM him about it if interested. I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for the team to pass out a few new lanterns to new guides.

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Chongo on August 09, 2012, 01:00:01 pm
People came to Layonara because NWN was popular and there was inherent  traffic deriving from marketing on NWN sites.  That doesn't exist  anymore so the entire community and team need to come to grips with  reality and stop treating this like an mmo or even a traditional PW.

Adapt.  Do what Milty is saying.  Coordinate the world into an  adventuring company system.  Come up with an outreach tool for all the  old players to get them committed to that one night a week.  And make it  worth their while.  You're delusional if you think you can compete with  anything else out there for folks to do maintaining the mindset that  the 'game' is the draw.  It's going to be old friendships that drive  it.  It's going to be ease of new integration.  Alter the GM team to  expand it into a sub category of adventuring company story masters.   Make it easy for them and empower them.  Give them story options that  aren't utterly flaccid.  Let players start at level 10 and just give  them a bloody shop with fun gear for their new start.  Come up with a  list of simpler code changes to enable this transition, and someone like  Dorg just commit to one hard night of work.  No more, no less - just  plan it all for that and stop entertaining suggestions that don't fit  into that one night... because you and I know full well they aren't  going to get anywhere.  You're not going to rebalance the physical world  because you have no one willing or able to do it.  Make the PC's more  powerful through simpler code changes.  Stop dreaming that you can do  anything else.

Most of the existing players here are creating as much of a problem as  the diehard 'this is a grand grand world' folks on the team.  You need  to stop clinging onto the past.  Commit to a true change and don't turn  back.  Adventuring company server.  You all get so darn sidetracked and  never commit to true changes.  Someone suggests changing xp rates and  the choir of clinging to past efforts burst forth in the song of 'But I  but I but I!'.  Someone says make gear more available and the choir of  crafters crafting alone for no one sing 'but I but I but I!'.  Someone  suggests progression alterations and the choir of world leaders sing  'but I but I!'.  You're not a world leader talking like that, you're the  mayor in the town of 2.  Be a leader and let your people flourish.

Go with Milty's idea and commit.  And don't let the old songs of 'but I'  creep in slowly as they always do and corrupt the whole darn thing.  If  you want real ideas on how to make it happen, I'll tell you them.  I'm  nothing special but I do know what was built in this game and how it  works.  Second I hear that choir though... ugh.  

It's simple.  If you can't adapt to bring back the old players by way of easily  acquired community, then you don't deserve the population you seek to  have entertaining you.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: RollinsCat on August 09, 2012, 02:09:39 pm
Perhaps this is a superfluous post, perhaps not, but I see a theme here and it bears repeating.  What is Layo, and how do we market to maintain or grow it?  I think that was the original question.  The answer I see here is that we fill a niche for players who want gm-driven/world-altering gaming.  We have become, as Milt said, the weekly gaming session for people who don't have weekly gaming sessions anymore and miss that interaction.  That is the niche, and it's exploitable, even in this old game medium and certainly in future ones.

Whatever is done to gain/retain players, we should drive that theme.  A dedicated starting area is a great idea, as is more soloability and adventure companies with gms heading them.  In the end though, we are roleplay with consequence and growth, and people that respond to that are the people we're going to keep.

In that vein and tying to the idea of publishing some of the forum content, why not blurb some of the quests going on.  There is a lot of good roleplay in several long-running quest threads that might get a roleplayer sniffing around.  

More to say but it's redundant so I'll leave it at the above.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 09, 2012, 02:16:53 pm
It will be read as a threat but it certainly is not, its just how it is. If the server changes to a weekly questing server. You will loose me, I havnt been on a quest in ages... honestly I LOATHE quests involving more than 5 or 6 people because it is all noise.... all voices clamoring for attention and people most certainly not playing their role. Im glad that the "big quests" right now fall into times that I cant attend. I bet there are other people here who are not questers or weekly DnD session people as well... will they convert into one? or further deplete the server population when you take this new path? Sounds like its time for a poll. y'all may be in the right track and the majority is wanting this... so best find out. So the minority can also know what to do for their future.

.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on August 09, 2012, 02:45:15 pm
Quote
honestly I LOATHE quests involving more than 5 or 6 people because it is all noise.... all voices clamoring for attention and people most certainly not playing their role. Im glad that the "big quests" right now fall into times that I cant attend.


You know what? I don't like quests to have more than five people per GM myself, both as a player and a GM. However, given the low number of GMs we have that can run quests on a given week, if we limited the quests to only five people per GM, dozens of folks would never get to play in a quest. So for the weekly series I run, I chose to not close off the numbers, and just deal with the huge amount of people that sometimes show up. And let me tell you, it's as rough (or rougher) on the GMs as it is on the players. Thankfully the players are patient, and the GMs are determined.

Until we actually aim for building those core "weekly gaming groups" and recruit enough GMs to keep it at five people per GM, we have to keep quests open so everyone that wants to can quest.

That means if we had a community of a hundred, we'd have twenty active GMs, and more like thirty GMs total. "That's a lot of GMs! We've never had that many GMs!" Yes, and yes. But I think that's the appropriate number of GMs. One per five players. At the very least, one per eight.

I also would dare to say, G, that if you got to be in a weekly quest series with a five man group, and that series was on par with the epic, world-altering series some of us are currently running, you'd be itching to play every week. I say that because you'd get the attention to character, the camaraderie, and feelings of accomplishment that can so often be missed on over-populated quests.

Quote
If the server changes to a weekly questing server.


Honestly, I kind of think that's what it's been since I started playing here. It's just that the population was big enough back in the day that you didn't have to quest. But this place has always had weekly quests. All I'm suggesting is to buy into it more deeply. And hey, if we did, and we recruited from that base, and the server population jumped by a hundred, then you'd have a lot more people to play with G, even without questing.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 09, 2012, 03:50:24 pm
*raises hand* Points of clarity.

Quote from: Guardian 452
It will be read as a threat but it certainly is not, its just how it is. If the server changes to a weekly questing server. You will loose me,

Is this really a shift in how things are done on this server since almost forever? I mean scheduling them more regularly and such yes, we go in and out of doing that. But the overall focus of the server has always been quest and development, hasn't it?


Quote from: Guardian 452
I havnt been on a quest in ages... honestly I LOATHE quests involving more than 5 or 6 people because it is all noise.... all voices clamoring for attention and people most certainly not playing their role.

So, would you quest more if the quest caps were limited to 5-6 players tops? Not all, but some certain quests?

Quote from: Guardian 452
Im glad that the "big quests" right now fall into times that I cant attend. I bet there are other people here who are not questers or weekly DnD session people as well... will they convert into one?
Clearly we're not expecting you (or anyone) to desire to attend 'big quests' but I have to wonder how you got Enzo so far in the world if you feel this way? Did you hate every moment of it in the past? Is this a more recent shift? If you didn't hate it, what would it take for you to like it at some level again? Just smaller number of people? A more regular group of people? A certain level of development? A certain time limit?

Quote from: Guardian 452
or further deplete the server population when you take this new path?

Two things. Further depletion is a given. It is an eventuality that won't change, short of some world wide catastrophe. That's why the focus on development to the MMO is so intensive. Depletion is happening, has been happening and its not going to stop no matter how hard we try. The lead staff don't even consider an alternative to be possible. (Is that a blind spot on our part? If so, fill us in on the missing perspective)

Second, I go back to the original. How is this exactly a new path? Layo is still the same, development focused, low magic, volunteer fueled, permadeath active world it's always been. Just with more development and richer layers over the years.

Quote from: Guardian 452
Sounds like its time for a poll. y'all may be in the right track and the majority is wanting this... so best find out. So the minority can also know what to do for their future.

.

I don't think we're quite ready for a poll yet, but a little further down the line that may be a good idea. But what then G? What if we are on the path (which is to say, staying the course we've been on) favored by most of the people here (that is to say 50.1% of respondents)? Does that really mean you'll walk away again, this time with the intent to never return? Why would you do that exactly? What is it that has drawn you back in the past if not for layers and development?

I ask because I pick up a few things that may be nothing but leaves me to wonder. Based on just this post alone, it sounds like you're interested in questing with a small group of people, maybe only semi regularly, development optional, but high on the exploration factor. Is that remotely right? Is that a kind of questing you could get behind? Or is questing completely dead to you and you could give two shakes forever. You just want some cool places to grind through with your buds when you feel like it and to be left alone unless you need some help with something? The tenor of your, "If you do this I will really have no interest," suggests that sort of sharp divide even though your elaboration doesn't.

Again, I'm just trying to understand and I am looking for candid response. Don't sugar coat it. If they answer is yes you don't want any part of that questing and development stuff anymore, I'm not going to judge. I would hope no one else does either.

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dremora on August 09, 2012, 04:18:37 pm
Just a thought and no I've not read around to see if its already been suggested (and not trying to side track anyone from G's concerns). But for me personally, quests are what makes Layo interesting.

Ultimately, the way Layonara plays and has been described; as a world steeped in Lore which has developed over years to what it is now, are different. Atleast.. when not on quests or exploring a new area. The attraction to new areas, new monsters is that its a change from the same old enemies, the same old tactics and the same old scenery. Some maps may be cooly designed, challenging and have nifty unique scripting in it to spice it up. But in my opinion, Layonara's best point is the emphasis on quests, from small to large scale. Now those quests number at the moment solidly twice a week minus the large number of cancellations recently due to RL issues.
If you take that away, the time you spend in between (from my opinion alone) is a grind or RP about either upcoming quests or whatever it is your characters might think to say to another. I call it random/casual rp, that is conditionally satisfying depending on what your in the mood for and who/what you have to RP with/about.

The point im getting at which is a suggestion is.. however you choose to market this and attract new players.. the history of the world will make RPers get interested to create a char.. but once in game that can become underwhelming without quests and activity. For impatient people, that happens fast.
Grinding xp to get a character up to level 40 using layo's xp system takes a while. Now people have said that the xp increase means that people level the same as servers using the same level-up range as seen in the OC. I've now played five said servers... um.. no. Not true. Atleast not up to the level I've gotten Nym which is 22, even if I ignore the 20-21 gap.
even the crafting system is just (for me) an appalling, boring and unrewarding grind that gives you more or less boring/useless items that aren't worth much during the early stages which tend to be what either keeps someone interested or not. Any attempts made to off-set this haven't sparked any enthusiasm for me but some craft guilds exist so to each their own.

So we are left with quests. These enrich the gaming experiance because as roleplayers .. we are here for story. I own other games for action and stuff like that and while I enjoy a grind now and then, its nothing but a chore to get the next (occasionally worthless level).
Now I am not sure how long its been since Alatriel came up with, I think Ravemore; but perhaps taking one ro two more players on as GMs whom have a strong interest in running quests might help boost activity. At the very least scheduled quests can remain as is and said new guys can write up impromptus and run them when 3-4+ people are on and look like they would be suitable candidates. Those numbers MIGHT then cause players who might be losing interest in being online casually (i see tons more online during quests than any other time). I unashamedly admit I would be one of that said number putting aside one or two OOC problems that add to why im no longer on except for quests.

Now I have been told by a GM that I've spoken too, I think possibly two but lets stick to one.. that impromptus were around more often before I came here but sometimes said GM would get flak about 'interfering' with people's RP. Now I don't know the circumstances surrounding those events and frankly.. I don't believe there wasn't or isn't a workaround for problems like that since we seem to be able to work around other things GMs do that we may or may not dislike (usually involving acting like an adult and explaining your feelings politely). I personally feel that despite whatever flak may've been recieved in the past for whatever reason, it can't hurt to have one or two more players who may want to GM (provided the team deems them suitable) around to help full those many moments of dull (for me) repetition.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 09, 2012, 04:53:37 pm
Is this really a shift in how things are done on this server since almost forever? I mean scheduling them more regularly and such yes, we go in and out of doing that. But the overall focus of the server has always been quest and development, hasn't it?
Overall, perhaps so. But I've not been on a quest in a long time they fall outside my sporatic play windows or fall into the catagory of attention fests. I guess I read this becoming the "focus" of the world to mean that then content for people outside these weekly session are S.O.L. for things to do, new items, new areas, new crafting, etc. If I am reading this wrong then ok.



So, would you quest more if the quest caps were limited to 5-6 players tops? Not all, but some certain quests?
If the fit in my time windows absolutely. But I am just one person, I would never expect things to be done to cater to such a minority.



 Clearly we're not expecting you (or anyone) to desire to attend 'big quests' but I have to wonder how you got Enzo so far in the world if you feel this way? Did you hate every moment of it in the past? Is this a more recent shift? If you didn't hate it, what would it take for you to like it at some level again? Just smaller number of people? A more regular group of people? A certain level of development? A certain time limit?

I did hate the old plot quests, I did not go on many of them even the ones Leanthar ran. I got to where I was because of smaller quest and being in a tightly knit group of players whose playtime, play-style, and expectations out of the game at that time meshed well. Very little of what Enzo gained was done alone.. as any ranger here can vouch that isn't much of an option nor has it been in Layo past.



Two things. Further depletion is a given. It is an eventuality that won't change, short of some world wide catastrophe. That's why the focus on development to the MMO is so intensive. Depletion is happening, has been happening and its not going to stop no matter how hard we try. The lead staff don't even consider an alternative to be possible. (Is that a blind spot on our part? If so, fill us in on the missing perspective)
I and I think a few others would like to be a bit more informed on the MMO.. when its been a year almost since we have had info... and several years since anything like a screenshot people tend to loose faith (well at least I have). Thus my focus has been on the game I can play now.



Second, I go back to the original. How is this exactly a new path? Layo is still the same, development focused, low magic, volunteer fueled, permadeath active world it's always been. Just with more development and richer layers over the years.

I can't answer that just yet. It was just a gut reaction to what I was reading



I don't think we're quite ready for a poll yet, but a little further down the line that may be a good idea. But what then G? What if we are on the path (which is to say, staying the course we've been on) favored by most of the people here (that is to say 50.1% of respondents)? Does that really mean you'll walk away again, this time with the intent to never return? Why would you do that exactly? What is it that has drawn you back in the past if not for layers and development?
I dont know what then... I cant answer that until I know what path the places takes and really is or isnt different than today. If it means getting on and playing in off hours from "the weekly quests" will be a lone adventure, yes I will walk away. I want more out of this world than questing. So if I have to go to another game to find what I seek so be it... I wont sit here and cry to get a place changes for one person.



I ask because I pick up a few things that may be nothing but leaves me to wonder. Based on just this post alone, it sounds like you're interested in questing with a small group of people, maybe only semi regularly, development optional, but high on the exploration factor. Is that remotely right? Is that a kind of questing you could get behind? Or is questing completely dead to you and you could give two shakes forever. You just want some cool places to grind through with your buds when you feel like it and to be left alone unless you need some help with something? The tenor of your, "If you do this I will really have no interest," suggests that sort of sharp divide even though your elaboration doesn't.
I am interested in small groups, be it questing, adventuring to new areas, trips into the deep for rare CNR, and yes even "the gring" so long as its with others people and we get to RP our characters as I have done in all these mentioned areas. I am also not opposed to a certain level of solo-play. With the dwindling amount of players in my given play-times my characters have been made to accommodate this as well. I would be playing here every night (or darn near every night) if such a group existed when I was able to play. Id call that regularly, not semi regularly or occasionally. That sharp divide is most likely frustration with a rainbow of things involving Layonara and its present state. It finally came out after seeing someone post saying do this do that who hasn't posted in nearly a year. Sorry Chongo... I call em like I see em.



Again, I'm just trying to understand and I am looking for candid response. Don't sugar coat it. If they answer is yes you don't want any part of that questing and development stuff anymore, I'm not going to judge. I would hope no one else does either.

After 9 years here (off and on) ive seen several... SEVERAL rant posts about why people dont play etc. My statement has always been if it isnt fun anymore dont play. This is my current dilema which only time will answer. If things are no longer "fun" for me, I wont play... if I am not playing I honestly don't see myself continuing to make content for a world that is not "fun" to me.

.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 09, 2012, 06:25:57 pm
Thanks for the feed back and it makes a lot better sense than the post that elicited it.

Firstly, I don't think there's any plans to disassemble the project team regardless of the outcome of various thoughtful threads going on right now. We know that most of you guys get out and around way more than the majority of the GM team. Keeping it fresh as much as we can will probably always remain on our radar. Plus there's plenty of reasons IG to create new content from time to time, so yeah... that's not really even on the radar. I think this might have been a case of misunderstanding intent.

Regarding the PnP style play that's being talked about, I think that's more a social structure to continue and create more of what most people want: quests. The goal is to produce some game play that a fair number of people are desiring. Filling a hole as it were.

Now as to catering to you. Based on the responses on the various thoughtful threads going on around here, I would say that you're not the only player with these concerns/desires. I'd like to cater to at least some of your ideas.

I won't lie, I don't feel like more bigger items is going to do much except for cause some balancing issues over the server. Different items I can get behind but not more powerful ones.

New areas are always nice but the toolset makes me cry. It's one of the few things I won't do for Layonara. I'm happy to work with anyone to develop new areas though. In fact, I've done so in the past. I'm thinking this is one of those things that needs more volunteers to make happen. I'm not sure the number of people we have on the Project Team but it hasn't been very active for a long while.  I'm not faulting people. We all have lives and it seems as time goes on it gets harder to squeeze more time for production into the day. It's still something we could look into.

There's other stuff that's been suggested too but I think I'd like to narrow in on the smaller group play, the sporadic hours and the content that'd be available in something like that. What if we kicked around some thoughts behind some small player initiated impromptu quests? These'd be something that would require some understanding on both sides and some patience as well. But what about a if a couple of folks (or say 4 or 5 chumlies) are online and they don't really feel like bench sitting but they feel like RPing? Perhaps a post on the forums to let GMs know there's a spontaneous quest group available?  I haven't kicked this around at all, this is a rare first look at row's wild ideas but what do you think? I mean, we'd need GMs that check the forums semi regularly (which we do), GMs who can ad lib pretty well or have a stock of unused ideas (which we typically do), some players who don't mind waiting around a while for a GM to notice the post and get some minor set up done (which we typically do, right?)... stuff like that.

It would be something that we'd have to be careful not to abuse and we'd have to have some understanding about what this would mean. This can't really be an unscheduled CDQ, so what the quest would be about would have to be up to the GM. It might be a good idea to include in the post how much time you have though and the relative location you're in. We might have to have some kinda way for GMs to flag the post to let people know it's been read because we'd hate for you guys to sit there for three hours doing nothing but waiting too. We'd really need to flesh out the system to provide for some good communication while not destroying the inherent surprise of an impromptu, right?

I know plenty of people have complained about the lack of ability to attend quests due to their own personal schedules. There's various factors there but people still get on line in clusters and that should be something we could work with. I think sometimes GMs, myself included, log in to try for some fun impromptu stuff and there's just... no one on. Kind of a similar issue on the flipside. There's got to be a way to line us all up for a couple of hours of fun. And you never know what the content might work out to be in the long run.

I dunno. Is that something even remotely interesting?

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 09, 2012, 06:38:45 pm
I'm going to address one single issue just to keep the "what if" and speculation on it to a minimum.

There's presently no intention (or desire) to turn this server into only  a weekly quest group sort of environment.  I think if a cross-section  of our players like that sort of thing, I see no reason why we cannot  try to facilitate that for those players. That doesn't mean we will  marginalized those who prefer a more active and/or casual play style. By  "casual" I do of course mean people who do not necessarily log on  frequently, regularly or for large swaths of time but rather who play  when they can, have some fun and log out.

In truth, we do wish to support multiple styles of play, from the hardcore RPer all the way through the cruncy, grindy hack-and-slasher...and everything in between. Obviously, a world that is ideal for one end looks nothing like the world that is ideal for the other, so we seek to strike a balance between them, because most people exist somewhere in the middle.

I know some people here want a more "active" experience, while others like something more story- or development-driven.  Really, there's nothing wrong with either of these, and there's room for everyone.

So again, there's no intention of going to a "weekly questing server" model, though of course if some GMs want to offer a regular weekly session, there's no problem in doing so.  Neither do we have any intention of skewing to a combat-heavy, high-magic, loot-rich sort of experience at the expense of RP. The point is, you get to choose.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Gunther on August 09, 2012, 08:47:29 pm
Just as an idea, before looking into the concept of posting on the forums that there is a group available for an impromptu, perhaps a poll to see if anyone even objects to having their current activity interrupted for an impromptu.  I'll be the first to admit, I'm more of a hack and slash player, I enjoy the RP also, but I'd happily drop whatever I'm doing to participate in an impromptu.  Even if it isnt hack and slash.

Otherwise, and I dont intend this to be snarky, but the way things are going, it looks a bit like the quests will eventually be five or six member outings.  Compared to the first few years I was here, its pretty sparse.  I'm sure the long time players can recall twenty or more people showing up for a quest, rolling for party spots, level caps being raised to winnow out the numbers that did show up, etc.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 09, 2012, 08:58:36 pm
This impromptu list (http://forums.layonara.com/roleplaying/281681-impromptu-quests.html) was started a while back. Some of do check it before we run something. Some of us don't. Can't hurt to publicly acknowledge that you are or aren't game for an impromptu though.

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 09, 2012, 09:35:12 pm
Sent PM to dorg, forwarding to Row. :U
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: davidhoff on August 10, 2012, 01:10:36 am
Layonara, to me, is a lot like fishing.  When I first really started fishing I couldn't sleep the night before and stayed up cleaning all the slots in my tackle box with WD40 and polishing and sharpening all my lures.  I'd stay out all day and was thrilled and exhilarated during the whole trip.  I loved adventuring to new bays and flats, trying out my new rod/reel and different fishing techniques and baits.  I could go on and on, but you get my point.

Now I'm older and I've been to most of the areas I still fish.  I don't get up at the break of dawn and usually sleep in.  A lot of the "new kid" excitement is gone.  I've tried most of the fishing techniques and lures and caught most of the types of fish.

However, I still love to fish!  It's a different kind of love, but still there.  I don't mind going to the old spots but I enjoy the company and conversation on the boat now more...and the beer.  I still get a kick out of trying new gear (rods, reels, line, lures etc).  I'm constantly trying to tweak and refine my skills.  Did I mention I like the beer?  Oh and my boat is nicer now.  I still get a smile when I set the hook and a friend yells "nice fish".  I don't mind fishing old stomping grounds if I'm with someone who's never been there and I like to teach others what I know.

Anyway...I think that's enough of that and I'm not really sure where it takes me in this thread.  Much of the early on "new kid" excitement for me in Layo has gone.  I've seen almost all the areas and rarely do I see a piece of equipment that is new to me.  I know most of the monsters and how to fight them.  But Layo is still fun for me.  I like challenging my characters.  I have a blast travelling and fighting with other characters.  I like to show off my character's talents and also learn tricks and tactics from others.  I LOVE to find new areas!  (just happened recently...shhhhh).

To the Brass Tax.  Many of the players have made wonderful points already and I'd like to give a big shout out to all the ideas and its inspiring to see so many who care so much about the state of Layo.  If you posted here...you care.  (apologies if I am repeating ideas already given)

1.  Monsters - I'm getting tired of the same creatures.  I know I'm one of the few that have seen most of Layo and have too much time to play, but I don't think I'm alone on this.  We have many world and lore specific events going on.  Change the monster to accommodate this.  Put shadows and ghouls and mist creatures in the roughlands to show the Deepening Dark is in town.  Place some really tough Orcs and Goblins near the same area to show the Goblinoid presence in the roughland that side with the Deepening Dark.  Throw some Drachs and Mydrachs in the Great Forest to show they are encroaching in those boundaries.  Put some dire wolf packs around Hempstead to indicate the famine.  Throw some fire creatures around Point Dart to show the Pyrtechon's hordes making a move for the amulet thing.  Etc, Etc, Etc.  Now this doesn't all have to be done at once if you don't have time, but do what you can and pace yourself.  You could even change the lighting or tileset around a bit if that was easy enough.  Give us some NEWness!

2.  Quests - I like the long running quests, but I equally enjoy a quick to run save the girl or take out the orcs that have been raiding.  One of my more memorable once was a Gnoll or Bugbear quest run by Dezza where they were up in some castle and throwing insults and jibes back at us...really fun and good stuff.

3.  Player Quests - These can be really fun too.  I want you to envision this.  Imagine if we each calendared one quest per month!  We'd have 20-40 player quests per month.  The GM could pop in too if they wanted to spice it up.  With our schedules now being tight, folks want to be able to know for certain when to show up.  I've tried this a few times and had great success and lots of fun.  Put it on the calendar and make it happen.

4.  New Players/Old Players - I think you're wasting you're money with any kind of advertising.  This needs to be word of mouth.  If you make if fun for those already here, then we will recruit for you.  I have two nephews that I've considered asking, but I don't know how Layo can stand up to Battlefront.  If Layo made some changes and more folks were on, I might consider pushing them a bit (although I'm still a bit embarrassed for them to see how much I'm logged in here).  Also if Layo was doing things to make if more exciting for the existing players, then some of us would feel better about reaching out to the old players to drag them back in.  I'd love to see some of the old characters back in the game (Fenrir, Kobal, Abjorn, Abigail, Galathea (saw her the other day..yayyy), Dan Hardhammer, Rhizome, Plenarius, etc. etc...MISS these characters and they really excite the player base when they come on.

5.  Word of caution about "Bashers" - Be careful not to offend this group.  I know we say this is a RP server, but without the bashers there is no role play.  We all have a little "basher" in us, and most of have much more than we are willing to admit.  Do not alienate the Bashers or make them ashamed to just want "run around and kill things with guys".  This is FUN, and it's a very big part of why lots of us like Layo.  We like the gear, we like challenging our characters in battle, we like the camaraderie of battling with friends and seeing new and difficult to getto places.  I never knew what RP was when I first got here, but I learned as I played.  Now Bashing and RP is like beer and pizza to me...they go so well together.

6.  Items - yes I'd like to see some new items and this would truly make it fun to explore and gather new goodies.  They are like lures to a fisherman.  They bring newness and make the game more fun...FUN is important right?  They don't have to be ubberjubber items, but they need to be useful.  Be creative, but if I look at the item and say that's cute, but it's not better than my mithril battle axe, then they don't really add that much.  Give the items an onhit stun property, or some armor that when you get hit does 1d2 acid damage, etc.

7.  Areas - I'd love to see new areas but I realize this is tough with the work involved and pallet space.  I don't follow any other MMO's really at all, but I did notice a while back that WoW even was adding new areas to their game.  I bet lots of others do it to.  We want to have new areas to explore.  It gets boring sometimes going to the old places over and over.  Just pick a small area for starters and redo it a bit.  Pick a cave or a castle and change up the monsters, lighting, tiles, bosses, etc.  Give a reason for why you did it based on Lore or just do it because you felt like it.  If you're worried about making changes and people dying/losing SS's, then start a thread warning about the changes.  Make a statement that you won't be reimbursing for the new areas...make us sign a thread saying we won't complain...something like that.

I think that's it for now...if I think of more I'll let you know...thanks
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Drosk on August 10, 2012, 08:56:04 pm
Being a new player reading this thread, I see lots of great feedback.

However, the below quote from the very start of the thread tells me that this is all moot because the lead staff is not considering any work here a priority.

Quote from: Rowana


2) Anything that requires an intensive amount of work for the lead staff will be considered but won't be attempted in the near future. If a window of opportunity presents itself we'll see what we can do.

~row


If the lead staff isn't going to make improving the existing game world a priority, then asking the community for advise on how to increase player numbers is pointless. Stagnant games don't retain players.

And as much as I have read about the MMO, you have two problems. First, it doesn't exist. It has been 4 years since you have posted a screenshot. So saying to people "Real soon now..." just makes you the next Duke Nukem Forever, and we all know how that turned out. Second, you are building the MMO as profit-making private venture. Layo was built by the community and volunteers. That imparts a certain sense of ownership to the community. If think this community is demanding and it hard to keep players, just wait until you have paying customers to answer to or lose.

I think it is clear the lead staff has made their decision to put their efforts into the MMO, and so the best the players can hope for here is for the game not to die. Anything more than that is clearly off the table from the attitude and comments of the lead staff.

And with that said, I recommend the rest you do what I am planning to do. Play the game as it exists, hang out with the people I like, and enjoy it while I can.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Pibemanden on August 10, 2012, 10:30:40 pm
Alright so now I have a bit of time to write something (hopefully) constructive. I think that many people in this thread has touched on important things my main contributions are:

1) The stories we tell, I still can't help but feel either a) a little out of the loop or b) that the stories have changed dramatically since I started. I know I have said this before elsewhere in a longer post, but really something has changed, either it is me or the world but I can't really put my finger on what. It just doesn't feel so engaging and fun anymore.

2) Finishing things... Here I don't want to harass people with busy RL's or anything but please please please stop starting things you know you are not going to finish in a timely manner.
I mean really, I am probably the person who is just as guilty of this as anyone having several 2000+ point Warhammer and WH 40k armies which I never got around to panting but I still start that one new project because I know it will be awesome if I just paint it.
My problem is probably much different and easier to solve that the teams current RL commitments, but I am just trying to say that we all make these kinds of mistakes, however we should just try to avoid them.
The problem is, you announce a big quest series or start a big quest series, there might be a couple of sessions and then BOOM! nothing. I am perfectly sure that your change of priorities are perfectly well reasoned, but it becomes sad when I can predict that this is going to drag out for years if there will even ever be a conclusion to it. And I don't even know how your current situation or your future situation, I just know that you wont be able to get this done.
That really kills a lot of excitement for me, of course it would be great to be proven wrong, but I would much rather that people set realistic goals for themselves. Rather than promising the greatest story there has ever been on the server, do a few short quests, you are all good DM's and you tell good stories, just try to make them manageable for yourself. Both for your own sake and for the communities sake.
Especially because you cannot expect the community to have the same priorities for years or even months at a time, so your quest might suffer from being reliant on PCs who are not around anymore for one reason or another.
I hope that is not stepping on anyones toes, and I don't mean to criticize the DM's who are not guilty of this, just keep something like this in mind before you start fleshing out your new great idea... If you can't get it done though, maybe another DM can?

3) On the MMO and stuff... I really wish you the best of luck with that, but I will also warn you like others have. In particular about the going to cons and stuff... Unless you -know- it will launch as either finished or at least open beta within 1-1½ years, don't wave your flag around like that. It is fine to keep the devlog and such updated and add new features, but you should be careful about spending too much time about spreading the word of something that is years away, people want to be excited for something which they know will happen within some time frame, not something which might happen in the future at some point where they might not even be interested anymore.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 10, 2012, 10:44:56 pm
To clarify the position of the lead staff...

Several years ago, we released v3, which introduced new tilesets, revised some areas, added some areas and removed some areas.  The core of Layonara stayed the same, but there was newness and improvements.  At that time, we had a community, and consequently a project team, that was easily 3-4 times larger than it is now at least. That project took an intensive effort by about a dozen people, give or take, over the course of about 9 months, and it was spear-headed by a person who could devote a near full-time effort to the process.

This is the kind of thing Rowana was talking about in that snip of a quote.  Now, it's arguable (and likely correct) that we don't really need that sort of an overhaul. Even seemingly simple changes sometimes take a significant investment in time because they can touch many things and have unexpected impacts on game balance. My personal focus lately has been on smaller, incremental changes as needed or appropriate, because it's what I can support and what the project team can support.  This said, in the last few updates, I've introduced new systems, revamped our chat command system to be faster and more reliable all across the board, added or updated areas to reflect plot quest outcomes and various other things.  To call NWN Layonara stagnant on the development end is an in accurate assessment.

Is it changing as much as I might like, given an excess of available time? Probably not, but we are trying to make the best of what we can with limited resources.  Layonara, even the MMO project, is still the product of its community and its volunteers. The pool we have to work with is smaller, so the scope of what we can reasonably do is smaller too.

So to assume that improvement is not a priority is not accurate. For reasons already stated, if Layonara is going to have any future in its online form, it will be in the MMO, but I also know that NWN is Layonara's present, and as such I do feel an obligation for us to continue to support this community while it lasts.

It's also worth stating that if the lead staff didn't continue to feel some value and responsibility to this community and NWN, the servers would be closed down, as it would make no sense at all to continue to pay hosting fees out of our own pockets to make up the difference in the donations we get. In my mind, the only reasons to close down NWN Layonara would either be financial or if it became too much trouble to manage for whatever reasons.  Thus far, neither condition is true.

I realize this is not a complete response.  I do, in fact, have more to say about some of the points raised, but I am not yet prepared to do so.  When I do, I hope everyone will then better understand a few things and we can move forward.

In the meantime, yes, enjoy the game. We'll do what we can to keep it interesting.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: lonnarin on August 10, 2012, 11:40:19 pm
Some thoughts.


-When you see a new player, log in an impromptu!  Introduce the players to the world.  Any time you recognize a new login that you don't remember, make the effort to make people feel welcome.  Explain the toolsets, show the areas, expand the horizons.  It's up to every GM or player that wants more players to step up as a welcoming comittee.

-Don't be afraid to mass-tell-spam heads ups for trips and boredom.  If you don't know somebody, don't be shy, say hello!  Even if that character you see isn't your level range, doesn't mean they don't have things you can do together or even have other characters within your level range.  You'll never know unless you ask!  Don't just stare at eachother on the player list log in and log out, hoping that they'll send a tell to you, ask EVERYBODY!  (people often wonder how I make massive parties on the drop of a dime, this is how)

-Dont be afraid to cross enemy faiths/alignments.  Just roleplay the animosity as you hunt.  Some of the best RP comes from the dissonance between good and evil, lawful and chaotic... Ilsarian and Vorax!

-See that "useless" gear you've been stockpiling?  That's gold to lower level characters.  Set them on crazy menial tasks for resources you need or CNR training tutorials.  Offer that dwarf a seemingly useless bronze axe to mine 10 copper, make him smelt it, and prize him the axe.  Engage in drinking contests for minor items or gold.  Take them to the creature cards with a starter deck.  Feel free to set your own interpersonal "quests" so to speak.

-Find RPers in real life and drag them in here!  Bring your siblings, your kids, your cousins, your coworkers and your fellow tabletop gamers.

-Don't underestimate small party combos. Even just two players make a balance party in most areas.  You just have to ask around and scout them.  You get that brother, sister, son, best friend or coworker online with say a mage and a fighter, a cleric and a cleric, a ranger and a druid, two frontliners of any type, and you have a party.  Think of the supreme duos we've had.  Czukay and Skabot, Barion and Rain, Gorm and Fehriel, Vrebel and Tralek,  The Berylite Sisters, the BloominLoom brothers!  All of those awesome two-party legacies that did incredible things were just two dedicated players who met up and formed a system of survival and tactics.

-Even the little spells help.  If you're an 18th lvl fighter, that 8th level mage still hase stoneskin or mage armor.  Bring em along as little buff-up batteries!

-Send tells often and chat it up!  Even if you just use Layo as a social network and chat with people, things pop up to do all the time.  Ping back and forth with eachother and see what's up!

-Come on my quests!  For they are awesome.

Anyhow folks, GAME ON!
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Drosk on August 10, 2012, 11:45:04 pm
Well Dorg, let me clarify a few things.

I have been building software and games for over 30 years. I have been building online communities around games and other subjects for just as long.

Building software is not easy and not everyone can do it.

Building communities is not easy and not everyone can do it.

Both of the which take intensive effort.

I can promise you that every time the lead staff makes a post with "MMO" in it, the community just cringes. As Pibemanden said, until you have something real to demonstrate to the community, just stop talking about it.

Incremental improvement is great and certainly the way to go. I think the lead staff under estimates the value of frequent releases.

v3 was 4 years ago. v3r14 was 3.5 months ago. v3r13 was 13 months ago.

Your release cycle for minor fixes and improvements is simply too long. It may be a function of the tool set, the difficulty of pulling the release together, not enough people on the dev team, or a combination.

Finding a fix for that and making sure you have a team supporting the existing community that is separate from the team working on the MMO is probably the best move you can make.

I have to split my resources all the time in real life. I have to put teams on maintenance of current software while new software that is going to replace it is being developed by another team. It is difficult and decisions have to be made. Major improvements rarely come to projects that are in the maintenance phase, but small fixes and improvements come very frequently.

Maybe the solution is getting a team together that wants to maintain and improve the current version of Layonara and spend their time only on that.

I don't know if that is a feasible solution, but it may be what is needed to help keep the community involved and alive while the lead staff focuses on the future.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 11, 2012, 12:30:56 am
Naturally. These concepts are not lost on us collectively or me in particular.

I know the letters "MMO" make a community cringe. It made me cringe when Leanthar first told me about it.

I know how long ago v3 was. I worked on it.

I know my release cycles are presently longer than I'd like them to be, though there have been several unannounced releases to address a quick-fix or to sneak something in. The difficulty is not in the toolset or effort of building the modules for release.

I know to keep an active development cycle, I need a dedicated and capable team with the required skill set. We draw the project team from the community, and as has been observed many times so far, the community is smaller than it was. The pool of capable, willing and reliable people to contribute to this is likewise smaller than it was.

We have, multiple times, tried to find and cultivate the right sort of talent for the NWN side so that I would not have to personally split my time and attention between two major projects. Several times we have recruited from within with this very purpose in mind, only to have the person vanish without a word, or be part of the team in label only but with little to nothing in terms of finished contributions.  In an increasingly smaller community, it is increasingly difficult to find and cultivate the necessary talent, trust and time to really hit frequent release cycles like we'd like to have.

It is also very difficult to recruit from without with nothing but the promise of rigorous release cycle, a sometimes demanding clientele and absolutely no compensation beyond the occasional accolades.  People don't work here for any reason other than the fact that they care about the place and want to do something more. It's a completely intangible sort of reward, and someone who'd never heard of Layonara isn't likely to take on the task.

I also know perfectly well what I'd do if this were a professional, full-time endeavor. Everything you suggested would be right on, and if this was a professional, full-time endeavor, my current release cycle would be wholly unacceptable. As it is, it is not.  Whether we're talking about NWN or the MMO, we are a fully volunteer effort.  

None of us are being compensated for our efforts, none of us has made a dime off this, and in fact we've collectively spent thousands of dollars out of pocket over the years. We have no budget, no funding, no source of revenue. As such, we do what we can with what we have and we continue to work around the obstacles and challenges that life continues to throw our way and try to eek in some time to take care of these projects during the few free hours a night that we have after family and other obligations take their share.

So to close, your observations are valid and correct in terms of what is and what was. You do not have the whole story, however, and so it would be best to not make many further assumptions as to the "why" of all this.

Matters specifically pertaining to the MMO will be addressed soon, as I have said before; I am simply waiting on one particular thing to be ready before doing so. This has been planned well before this thread was started.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 11, 2012, 12:35:12 am
Drosk,

Thanks for your opinion. Thanks for your effort of trying to get involved in the community right away. However, I think you're being a little presumptuous about, well pretty much everything.

The folks on these teams have lives that sound a little like yours. They've been working for this server, in some cases, for years, for free or rather, at a deficit. Some of them donate a portion of their hard earned wages every month so that folks can come here and play for free and have been doing so, for years. They allow people to use their work to build something of their own, they donate countless hours to develop story arcs to give people something exciting to do with those characters that they've built here. I could go on for oh, ever probably, on the ways people donate their time here. That's not even to mention the players that donate their time and effort here to keep things lively and fun for their fellows. That's a pretty big deal. I don't know if you've noticed but in this economy, it's actually pretty amazing.

During the course of your wisdom imparting you're coming of pretty condescending, like you know everything better than everyone despite the fact that you've only been here for a few days. I don't appreciate how you're treating the folks while sitting in our living room, particularly in a thread that's for people to suggest ways of making our community stronger and better. I see few helpful suggestions and a good number of critical judgements based on not knowing pretty much anything about the people who work here. For someone who claims to have been working at building online communities for 30 years, you don't act with a whole lot of tact or consideration. That kind of refutes your supposed experience, I might add.

Now, we're all interested in coordinating with new and old members a like. We're well aware that we're entirely too short handed around here. That's actually kind of the POINT of this thread. If you've got a lot of experience you might be willing to share, we're certainly open to the option. Like we've said and you've restated, this whole place runs on volunteer juice and it's supposed to be for fun (not for money, just to reinforce that one more time). However, if you're interested, the first thing that has to go is telling people that those of us who've volunteered to donate our time are lying about our intentions and efforts. The second thing that has to go is telling us what kind of timeline we need to run this place on. Stuff like that kind of sucks the enjoyment out of everything and really makes us wonder why we bother with all that time and financial support. See the earlier post about how long this place will keep going when we stop feeling like everyone's getting something worthwhile out of our efforts.

If I'm not mistaken you're familiar with Guardian, and he's actually been on the inside off and on for years as one of our volunteer work horses. Project team member and GM and possibly a few other things I'm not recalling off the top of my head. Maybe you could talk to him about the hours he's dumped into this place before you go knocking the collaborative effort he's taking part in.

Thanks again for your interest. Hopefully we can move forward from this on better footing.

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 11, 2012, 01:13:14 am
He does talk to me Row as of a week or so ago we live in apartments above each other. Up untill the past couple days he's only gotten my side of any story on things....
Aww nevermind Drosk speaks for himself... I certainly dont need to defend him accept to say he may have played the game for a few days now but ive talked his ears off many nights about Layo over the past several years. And he certainly has not been the only one in this thread with a "do this, do that" structure... yet he's the one getting fired back at.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 11, 2012, 01:34:09 am
Speaking for myself alone, it's not the "do this, do that" structure that brings me to respond. I've, in fact, refrained from commenting on most that people have said to that end in this thread just to let the discussion grow on its own.

I do not, however, appreciate being told what my mindset is, why I think that way and what I need to do to "fix" it.  The assumptions of my attitudes and those of the other lead staff are underinformed at best.

I respect and welcome each and every positive suggestion on ways to improve the experience here, but I draw the line when it gets personal and someone who doesn't know me starts to tell me what I am thinking.

If that's "firing back" then so be it.

Attack the product all you want. It's fair game.  Do not attack me or anyone here really.  That's not what this thread is about.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Shiokara on August 11, 2012, 01:42:20 am
Quote from: Guardian 452
And he certainly has not been the only one in this thread with a "do this, do that" structure... yet he's the one getting fired back at.


The "do this, do that" structure isn't the issue. It is very easy to read the latest series of posts and see why things are getting defensive. Let's deconstruct a few responses into the base argument.

Drosk's first post can be summarized as, "This thread is pointless." Already that should raise some flags. I know if I were a forum mod, I'd be watching this thread real close with the lock key at this point.

Then there was a response that could essentially be summarized as, "Let me explain why this is not pointless."

Drosk replies with, "My X number of years experience allows me to tell you what you're doing wrong and why this is pointless if it continues like this."

Response was met with, "No doubt things could be better, but you're kind of being an arse."

The team did ask for community input, it's true. What they didn't ask for was a project manager or taskmaster. This thread is for suggestions regarding the in-game client, not for the way the game as a whole is developed. They didn't ask for the gaming equivalent of Gordon Ramsey. I suggest any such advice (if it is welcomed) would be best handled through personal tells rather than airing such dirty laundry in front of the players.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: davidhoff on August 11, 2012, 06:33:01 am
*Leans back in his eeezy chair in "our" living room and watches Drosk run out the front door, leaving wet and muddy boot prints on the rug as he goes.  Leans back a bit more and takes a puff of his fat cigar*

"Pitty, I thought the lad had some zip"

----

Sorry that image came to me and I couldn't resist.  In all seriousness, I agree Drosk's post came across as condescending, self promoting and a bit insulting you could say.  It happens.  I'd probably consider a small appology if I was him, but I'm not.  Still I give the guy kudos for coming into a "hot" thread when he's such a new player.  He gave it a shot; cut him a bit of slack.

Dorg, Row and the team have a right to be defensive and return fire and I understand that.  We also do really appreciate all the work you guys on the team do for us for free.  Sometimes sitting on this side its hard to see all the work going on behind my screen.

This thread is about bringing in new people, but it seems to have had the reverse affect in this case(if Drosk does leave us; which I think he won't; hoping anyways).  In my time here I've seen several new faces come in and leave for various reasons.  The written medium makes things difficult.  Things are sometimes not what they seem.  Some folks just don't have the experience or skill to write what they mean in a nice way and they tend to come across harshly; this is true more often for the computer/geeky/programer types.  We did ask somewhere back to be brutally honest I thought.

It's such a fine line really.  I hate to see new folks come and go, but at the same time I understand the teams right to be defensive.  Guardian finally convinces this guy to give us a go and then he gets flogged on the forums..rightfully or not.  Anyways, I take my leave with a final thought.  If we want to open our living room to the public, maybe we should have a bucket of soapy water and a brush handy instead of a whip?
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 11, 2012, 09:18:38 am
Well, I think everyone here, myself included, needs to take a step back and let our undies air out a bit before we start un-bunching them. You might be thinking "Way to go Link, fuel the fire ya arse!" But think about this. We're communicating on a forum. Text only. As such, we're missing about 80-90% of communication. The non-verbal part. Needless to say, it is easy to misinterpret anything because we only have 10-20% of what is said to work with. The context behind it is missing.

SO, I'm not saying this to defend anyone, nor am I taking sides. But I do feel a build up of tension here, and I would just like to drop in a friendly reminder that Drosk may not have intended to offend anyone. (Okay, okay, maybe I'm playing devil's advocate :U but that's not the point.)


Cheers. :3
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 11, 2012, 09:20:22 am
If I didn't care about ya'll, I wouldn't comment. :U
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Drosk on August 11, 2012, 10:39:05 am
Well, this puts the point on things.

Rowana and Dorgnath I think you both have exposed the complete problem here.

You are determined that you are the experts and anything that doesn't fit your world view is condescending, personal, and inflammatory.

None of my posts were condescending. My posts were based on my experience, knowledge and the information I have gathered here. I am trying to share that in a way that will help the community.

As for the posts being personal, if you are in a position of leadership, everything is personal to you. None of my posts were personal attacks though. Posts about how leadership is done and statements the leadership makes are not personal attacks. If you are going to be a leader, your positions and statements are going to be challenged by the community. You have to learn to keep that in the right context. If you can't, you might want to consider stepping back from leadership.

It is apparent that the real issue here is that the leadership isn't interested in what the community has to say unless it agrees with their worldview and the direction that has already been chosen by leadership.

As for me being self-promoting, I am not promoting anything. I am stating the facts. I have a great deal of experience in this area. I am an expert. I am most probably smarter than every one of you. I solve these kinds of problems every day for large sums of money. I spend a lot of time studying and researching user experience and interaction with enterprise software systems. I know what engages users and what turns them away. These aren't statements of arrogance. They are facts.

I offered my insight without expectation of anything other than having it heard and tried to put it in the context of my experience so that you would know that I have a valid frame of reference on these things.

The leadership being defensive and "firing back" is not how leadership should work. Over the history of what I can see here on these forums, that is the basic problem. The leadership tends to be defensive, dictatorial and likes to fire back. That isn't how communities and leadership work.

You are correct, you put your time and effort into this as a volunteer. Which you are welcome to quit doing at any time, but like any volunteer effort, when you invite other people to be involved and give input, you have to put yourself in a position of service and leadership, not a position of constantly complaining about how much time and money you have put in.

So let me put a fine point on this to clear this up perfectly...

Your new player experience SUCKS. It is no wonder you have trouble attracting and keeping players. Not only is the experience difficult, frustrating,  and just generally poor, but then you start piling on the inconsistencies and glitches within the world. One the pile gets so big, it is just not worth it when there are far better gaming experiences and communities out there. This world needs a lot of polish and clean up to make the experience more enjoyable for everyone.

And then when people start trying to talk about how to make things better and you say that there will be no intensive efforts, and that this or that is off the table, or fire back at every bit of advice that is given, you are just demonstrating that there is some other agenda at play here rather than just improving the game and the community.

People that have a financial interest in the MMO should not be speaking for or leading the NWN community anymore. It is a clear conflict of interest. That is why I suggested that there should be a separate team not involved with the MMO taking care of this community.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 11, 2012, 12:11:51 pm
Ah yes, I so so enjoy this one...the one where someone accuses us of being "defensive", which either invites us to respond in some way to say we're not, ironically proving the point, or invites us to simply not say anything, thereby implying the point was correct and tacitly accepted.

In truth, I am defensive...though "protective" may be a better word.  But to be accurate, I'm protective of the world as a whole, not necessarily in its current state. There's fairly significant difference, but I'm not going to elaborate. I don't want to be seen as defensive.

Quote from: Drosk
You are determined that you are the experts and anything that doesn't fit your world view is condescending, personal, and inflammatory.

I do not have an issue with you making any constructive suggestions about how to improve the world.  I may disagree, discuss, try to draw out more, offer insight when matters turn technical or whatever, but I still read and consider every bit of advice that is given. I don't have a problem with it. None.

I also know I am a leader, and as a leader, my words and actions will be scrutinized under a microscope....like has been going on for the last several years. Oh yes, I'm well aware. This is nothing new.

I took exception solely to being told what I am thinking...to being told what we have decided and what our intentions are.  I don't mind being criticized, but if you're going to criticize me, at least be accurate.  You're not, where my mindset is concerned. You may think you are, but you're not.  Had you offered them as an observation (i.e. "It seems like the lead staff thinks...") rather than a statement of "fact" as you worded things, my response may have been different.

Apparently, Rowana and I were not the only ones who took exception to  your comments, but as Link092 observed, this is text, and some people do  not come across as well as it sounds in their heads in text.  Context  and visual cues are lost. I'm giving some benefit of the doubt as a result of this, but you could still offer positive suggestions and take the force of your posts back a notch or two. Right now, we're both talking and not really communicating.  That's a problem.

One other point. I don't mention the time and financial investments of keeping NWN running for sympathy. I mention it for perspective. If we didn't care about keeping the community alive and going, it would make absolutely no sense for us to continue to do either.  That's all.

Quote
As for me being self-promoting, I am not promoting anything. I am  stating the facts. I have a great deal of experience in this area. I am  an expert. I am most probably smarter than everyone of you. I solve  these kinds of problems every day for large sums of money. I spend a lot  of time studying and researching user experience and interaction with  enterprise software systems. I know what engages users and what turns  them away.

I'm offering the bolded text free of comment.

In truth, I have nothing but respect for your years of experience in such matters, and I really wish our first communication would have been on better terms and less adversarial from the first post. I think your insight and experience could actually be helpful, and many things you have said that were actually worded as constructive feedback are already on our minds. I don't question your advice; I question your approach.  I would hope that in your highly-paid day job that you might at least take the time to talk with and interact with the people involved before you start drawing conclusions. If so, I would have appreciated the same courtesy.

On that note, if you would care to continue this conversation, or try to start it over, I refer you to my PM inbox. As it is now, this sidebar is detracting from the thread.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 11, 2012, 01:10:59 pm
Two things. I opened this thread to be a subject specific discussion on how to make this community stronger. I didn't open the thread so people could trash those who have spent countless hours trying to maintain and better it. We DO welcome feedback. We don't welcome people attacking others. When the accusations start flying at people, things like accusing others of lying and attacking volunteer work ethic, we've a right to defend ourselves. People are welcome to their opinions, and we won't be stifling that. However, the reverse has to be respected as well. We're not doormats to be kicked and scuffed against without rebuke.

As has been stated, this thread is getting long and starting to get extremely off track. I'm going to leave it open for a few more days for those who'd like to offer suggestions about developing a stronger community. This thread will close on or around noon CDT of the 15th. The GM team/lead staff will not be responding any further though it's members are more than welcome to make suggestions as full members of this community.

We will be combing over the thread and the offered suggestions. We'll offer a synopsis and some commentary at that time. What we will or will not be able to do with the suggestions will depend on availability of manpower.

Thanks in advance,

~row
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Maestro3P on August 11, 2012, 04:08:14 pm
Not having read most of this thread, I thought it still might be useful that I, as a new player, explain how I ended up at Layonara.

The server I last played on is dying and beyond repair. That made me look around, first via the NWN GameSpy list. Of course, I had the password protected servers turned off. I did not see any servers that appealed to me, so I simply googled nwn rp server. I found this list (http://www.gamesites200.com/nwn/), and at #9 I found Layonara.

Since no one is unique, there's probably more people trying to find a good server the same way I did. While I write this, three suggestions come to mind (like I said, I haven't read most of this thread, so maybe others suggested the same, but here it is anyway):

1) Remove the password from the server. Allow people to log in and then ask for the password via a voice command. It allows people to see Layonara, even when they're excluding password protected servers.

2) Try to get into lists like on gamesites200 and try to move up to high positions.

3) There's a lot of dying servers out there. Find them, because there's always a few players left on them. Most of them will be looking for a new server, or will be as soon as their server is officially dead. You don't have to "steal" players, just make them aware of our existence.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Shiokara on August 11, 2012, 04:21:04 pm
Going to throw a card in for the increased xp rates / lowered xp cap suggestion. It might not help for attracting new RPers, but it will help with player retention despite its being a mechanical tweak.

Here are my RP-related arguments for why this mechanical change would help hold onto players longer.

First, the player would feel more prepared to venture into new territories. Layonara is a large world with a rich lore, but a newer player won't be able to see the areas tied to that lore. One of my favorite things to do on Agmundr is to go around Mistone/Dregar exploring, and that exploration allows me to show areas to other players during RP. I also had a great RP experience with an impromptu during one of these trips. It was when there were blockades set up around Prantz. A GM seized control of one of the guards and started questioning Andrew. As I walked back from one of my exploration trips, I spotted them and I had to vouch for "William's" existence as a performer. Good stuff.

Second, the player will have an easier time catching up to more experienced players. One of the common gripes of new players seems to be that they feel insignificant in a world of epics. It doesn't help that some quests lines are sometimes leveled at 10+ or 15+. If lower players do attend these quests, then they are really just along for the ride. This helps RP by getting players to those suggested level caps, which allows players to add to their CDT's, form relationships with other players, and become more personally engaged in the world.

The level caps used to not be so insurmountable because a player could attend (provided he or she had the time) three or four quests a week and pick up a decent chunk of experience. The current level caps seem like a mechanic left over from a Layo that no longer exists.

I have a question. Is there any chance we can recruit people from other diminishing roleplaying communities? It might be worth doing some research, but there has to be some Rhy'din-esque community that's hurting right now. They would likely not be bothered by the graphical limitations.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 11, 2012, 05:49:48 pm
Continuing on the matter of other servers.

Perhaps there are a few other dying, but established RP servers around. Why not only introduce them, but incorporate them? No no, silly goose! not take them over. But perhaps the owner(s) and player(s) might be interested in the transition, perhaps bringing some of their world to layonara? Not changing the dynamics and such, but what about locations? Another interesting idea is the concept of culture. Layonara, veiwing as an actual world, not an RP server, should have a multitude of diverse cultures present. Relatively speaking, that isn't well displayed at all. AT ALL! :U

*ahem* but to the point, presented with the idea, perhaps we could expand even some of the unknown lore that is tied to Layo, as it is, in my eyes, ever-changing and developing (once again, as a world, not as a server).

Yes yes, I know this might be sticky and icky and layered with red tape, blue tape, yellow tape and all sorts of other tape (fly tape is the worst :U), but it's a potential idea. Servers with a large player base tend to maintain a strong base. Layo is a particular exception to how some RP servers work, but in example, look at Arabel. Their character process and the the like is much more lax then what we see here. is it bad? no. but I don't care for it as much. But also, I don't think I've ever seen that server below 15 players, and I did play there a bit. but for me there was something missing. when I started, I knew NOTHING about anything. There was no lore to reference, and the Roleplay style was... off, to me. I like Layo because it's lore has a strong structure and a strong base. Sure, I may not be able to start off with a sea elf monk (*cries*), but the base provided for you makes not only developing a story easier for you, but there is an extremely fun challenge in adapting your ideas to a world that exists.

So to my point, your only going to attract and maintain those that have a direct interest in Roleplay and/or willingness to explore it and maintain their interest in it (Much like Señor DavidHoff started with bashy in mind, but found out that Roleplay was the pizza to his beer). And if we roll with the idea of looking for other players from other roleplay servers, particularly one's that are going kaputt, your gonna need a sample of the spice on their pizza. Something made them choose that server over yours, so either an adaptation or acknowledgment that there is something similar between the two will be needed.

dunno if that made sense... I just got back from a long hike in the mountains and my legs are screaming at my mind to shut down and sleep, not slap the keyboard like a chimp. ;A; shhhhhushshshsh, legs. I'll go to bed eventually.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: merlin34baseball on August 11, 2012, 09:10:48 pm
I would make a respectful request.

I would like to maintain this thread for it's original purpose, to talk about increasing player base, not to talk trash.

I understand why people get upset, especially if they feel attacked, and as Link said, text DOES NOT convey actual emotions.

Please everyone, view this thread as a way to make Layo better, not criticize what has been done in the past.

I have greatly enjoyed my years here, and it makes me cringe watching people bash the VOLUNTEERS that have kept me, and my son, and now my daughter, entertained for years.

My Thanks,
Merlin34
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 12, 2012, 08:36:27 am
Quote from: merlin34baseball
I would make a respectful request.

I would like to maintain this thread for it's original purpose, to talk about increasing player base, not to talk trash.

I understand why people get upset, especially if they feel attacked, and as Link said, text DOES NOT convey actual emotions.

Please everyone, view this thread as a way to make Layo better, not criticize what has been done in the past.

I have greatly enjoyed my years here, and it makes me cringe watching people bash the VOLUNTEERS that have kept me, and my son, and now my daughter, entertained for years.

My Thanks,
Merlin34


As I read this, I started singing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdB-8eLEW8g), LMFAO. Doesn't help the radio has been playing a lot of Marley lately. :3
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Teo on August 12, 2012, 09:57:00 am
One thing that makes a lot of people leave the server is that there is a level spree from 1-7, and after that it slows down dramatically. Maybe make it a more gradual slowdown, because if you look on Lore and find all of those abandoned characters whose players haven't played in a year +, they are mostly right around level 7.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 12, 2012, 11:28:43 am
7 to say 9 I agree after that things seem to get better
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Pibemanden on August 12, 2012, 11:43:10 am
I think that the problem around level 7 is that when you get there you are done with all the easy stuff like the Hempstead sewers and such, but if your build isn't combat oriented enough you will get punished.
I can see it myself with Sebair, he can't hold his own in any "meaningful" fight for his level. This is very hard to balance really since we want to encourage RP, but some mechanical choices this enforce might end up harming the players out of RP situation enjoyment of the world since everything is designed for perfect balance against the good builds.
Maybe small scripted quests which reset on server reset could be implemented to give maybe 1000-2500 xp for specific deeds based on alignment, deity or something different. This will probably take too much effort, but it is still worth suggesting.
What I am mostly concerned about really is that people come here expecting that RP builds are king or might not have found the exact way through the NWN/layo mechanics to fully optimize their character for breaching level ten and starting on the grid/daily routine which comes for players who are still around.
I know that is putting the gameplay a little down to being one dimensional, but mostly when you do not log on because you see someone else, have a quest, have a good group online so you are sure to find allies. You simply just need to power to get around the most basic challenges and find whatever it is you need to craft or kill for those extra xp/gold you need for that level/piece of gear.
This ability is a bit missing in some common level 7 "builds"/"restrictions" because we have balanced so much towards groups that without a decent ability to 1) Have protections from abilities, 2) Have decent protection against damage, 3) Output just enough damage. You will be pretty hard pressed, and if you play a character which is somewhat gear or content restricted by choice you will be even harder pressed.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Pen N Popper on August 12, 2012, 12:42:16 pm
Crikey! Long thread and worth the read, though I may have to re-read to catch all the details.

I've come and gone a number of times over the years. Each time I leave for very similar reasons and then in the same vein return because of what the other games lack.

My critical posts are probably too old and numerous for anyone but the dedicated veterands to know or care about. In short, I find that grinding for XP and levels detracts from what I enjoy about Layo, the RP. I cannot stress enough how disappointing it is for a player with limited playing hours to have to spend them running solo through the woods killing bugs instead of RPing. I've asked before and I'll ask again, "What type of player do you want around, and why don't you optimize the experience for them?"

In my opinion, Layo in its current state is optimized for solo players wishing to grind in either XP or crafting. I tried very hard with my most recent character to toe the line of "RP as its own reward." She was, like my other PCs, a facilitator of other people's stories. A "home body" townie that I wanted to be accessible and engaged in the stories spun both by GMs and other PCs. Her player, me, would purposefully misconstrue innocent player actions in order to force rumors and stories.

This brings me to what has always brought me back to Layonara: The PC-driven stories. I believed that here player actions could and should shape the world. I think, though, that this did not scale well as the players dwindled.

For me, I want a world that I'm invested in. I want one where my past PCs, due to their living stories, have made physical and visible impacts on the world and its history. I want to play where I can experience and share other players working towards their own histories in the making.

I'll reiterate portions of past suggestions:

+ Please, please institute a playing-time based leveling system. I'm not sure why my "level per month" idea is continually viewed as a bad idea. You're forcing character level progression to be entirely grinding based.

+ The world is too big for so few. If you want combat to dominate play in the world, consider making it insanely easy to get the five online players in and out of areas. (Diablo 3 travel defines that well.) This makes the big world small by accessibility.

+ Pick a single town to be "player run." Political structure, military ranks, religious hierarchy, and on. Let the players truly shape the world by scheduling regular monthly area updates. The church slowly gets built, the farms get planted, etc. Make the changes require in-world cost (wood, stone, ore, etc.) to give grinding a larger purpose than just ones own progressment.

+ Increase rewards for regular playing. In Diablo if you kill a few boss groups, your chance of finding loot increases. Perhaps a simple server log scrubber to track playing time and bump up XP accrual. Heck, maybe the accrual is server wide based upon the number of unique players that show up during "recruitment week."

Once you get a new player, your number one goal is to retain them. Give them multiple ways to be engaged with the world and its story. Make them believe that they are in fact part of that story.

I believe it is unique in the world of shallow hack&slash online video games. Its power comes from the intricate lore its founders started and its players pushed forward. Believe me when I say that I want to come back. I have always wanted to be part of the solution.

~ PnP
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: jadewillow on August 12, 2012, 02:19:11 pm
As long as we are throwing out ideas, I think reexamining the XP progression chart would probably be a good idea.



All of these might have an unmanageable impact on current PCs, but thought I'd throw in my two cents.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 12, 2012, 02:32:42 pm
I just want to throw this into the discussion, because it's come up several times (here and at least one other thread) and I want people to know what the effect will be...

Changing the XP progression will cause people's levels to change.  NWN defines levels by total XP numbers, not the amount it takes to get from one to the other.  If the latter was true, we could adjust things without an issue, because only all leveling from that point forward would be affected.  As it is, depending on how the table was adjusted, levels could go up or down. I don't think either is a particularly good idea. I'm sure those who would stand to gain several levels would think it's great.  People who could stand to lose levels (i.e. those above 30 in jadewillow's post) might not think it is so great.

If we were starting over, it might be worthwhile to examine XP progression, but at this stage of the game, I'm not sure it's a wise idea.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Wisper2 on August 12, 2012, 09:51:47 pm
It's funny (well, not funny exactly, but.. bear with me.)

I've had two run ins with Layonara. The first time, I really enjoyed it, but when the MMO was announced a lot of my friends at the time declared the NWN version of Layonara dead and moved on to other servers, and I followed and didn't look back. The loss of my beloved Hlint also kind of stole some of the magic away. Just my experience for reference sake, not saying you guys should have handled anything different, I know we're all just doing the best we can. But, well, when you announced the MMO it did basically sound like the NWN version of Layo was over.

The second time I tried Layo was maybe 2? years ago and this exact discussion was going on in the forum. I've been thinking about checking it out again, and I probably will, but I can also see that what drove me away from the server the second time- the feeling of futility at being low level, primarily- remains.

So just from my limited experience of generally fond but not entirely positive memories (i.e. I like the potential here more than the experience, and I definitely appreciate the community's existence even as I saw that it was really difficult to actually become an accepted member) I'd say I have a couple of.. not suggestions exactly, but maybe things that come to MY mind, at least...

One, I think the people you could court would be from outside NWN. NWN is on its last legs, it has a reprieve in that GOG is selling it dirty cheap (with messed up online codes of course) but you're hardly going to see an influx of new players in numbers that matter.

But if you court people from on-line RP forums, primarily from the world of PNP- as in, conventions, hobby shops, etc... I think Layo's advantage is that it is very much the PnP experience, or at least has the capability to give you that, and I could certainly see where a certain crowd who doesn't generally go for online gaming would really be into it. Maybe arrange quests out of the game, and court outsiders to join that way at appointed times, and run it all like a weekly game of PnP with friends old-school style.

As far as character approvals go (which I personally think are a giant crocodile filled moat around this castle), here's a suggestion: allow DMs running a quest to approve PC characters for that quest. Perhaps an interested player could give a bio or a rough idea of what they want to play and the DM could give them a character they can use, who will fit into the quest as part of his backstory so a giant application isn't needed. And make this character only playable during this quest, until that series is complete.

This seems like win-win to me for new players.. I can say I want to play a human rogue, the DM gives me a quickly drawn up human rogue to play who makes sense in the quest, no three day waiting period to find out you spelled a place name wrong. Yes, I exaggerate, but honestly, you're asking people who don't know this server, who just found it randomly from who knows where, to spend a few hours writing an application with a bio that has to make sense in your world, and then you grade them on it and often demand corrections! Think of it from an outsider's point of view- if you stumbled on a community like that you'd never heard of and they asked that of you, how many of you would really bother? Maybe that made sense when this was a popular game as a way to keep the riffraff out but honestly, in 2012?

And hell, let DMs start at a level appropriate to the quest too, assuming it's not over, I don't know, level 10 or so. Yes, really. Which bridges to--

Two, the level thing is a problem. You do need to make it feel POSSIBLE. You don't need time sinks in 2012 to slow people down. You need people to be of roughly the same levels to have a vibrant world where people can group up for quests and to explore, not sit on the bench because they're 10 levels too low and they know it will take 6 months at this pace to even get halfway there.

Yes, I'm saying it... It DOES just plain suck to be low level here, or at least it did a while ago. It doesn't seem possible at all to level up when you're at level 8 and you have to solo almost all the time because there's no one else at level 8 around, ever. You're asking for an insane time commitment from people that again, made sense in 2006, but in 2012? Meanwhile for low level players there's no sense of community, no sense of camaraderie, just as I said in a post when I gave up the second time, the sense that you've arrived at what was an amazing party after the cops came and busted it up and sent everybody home.

So why not just make it super-quick to level up to a point, or even start people higher? Why not give people a level every time they finish a quest up to a point as well? Does that mean you can rocket to level 20 much, much faster now than the current epics had to? Sure. But that person rocketing who'd be 20 doesn't have nearly the opportunity to have fun along the way that a current epic born in 2006 would have. (And if changing the XP tables throws everyone off- do it another way besides solely through killing monsters! More side quests or things to touch to give you XP to keep you on scavenger hunts way past level 5 if nothing else!)

I think there's a lot of great people trying their best here and I definitely applaud you guys and hope for the best. I've not often wanted to cheer on a community that I had no real involvement in, as much as this one. So take my rant in the spirit it was intended, please, and I'll pop in with an old character soon to look around if nothing else.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 12, 2012, 10:36:09 pm
Nice post Whisper2. I think you have some very valid points about levels, leveling etc. I believe we most certainly have a wall that people here hit (around level 8 I agree) and I think it has been a factor in them looking elsewhere for their gaming fix. Unless they are lucky enough to play in one of the few remaining timezones that folks play in. Or they land themselves in one of the clicks (guilds) in layo and get help from them.. and their alts. Or you are lucky enough to be able to play at the time one of the remaining quest series is running.

Outside of those areas leveling up your character is a long and seemingly impossible road... thus I believe it drives people away. I dont think everyone needs to be handed the magical keys that unlocks the doors to level 40 in a couple months of playing.... but we need to give people some feeling of accomplishment aside from the RP which no has ever came here and said was lacking.

.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: LordCove on August 13, 2012, 03:26:53 am
I'm hoping for a change to the xp system to allow quicker leveling to a certain point. Here is why, and please don't take any of this as a knock to the team or community or anything like that.

My play-time is very limited and unpredictable, but I have incredibly fond memories of Layo, so I dug  out an old Alt character I had and started logging him in.

Sadly, my experience wasn't great.
First, there was one character online who I sent a tell to, and then spent ten minutes running to his location, only to find he was an Orc ( I was a dwarf )
Then ensues some threatening RP and a PVP battle, which was all good, but after I had faced off against the evil orc .... I was all alone on the server.

Second time there were a few people online, so I sent a Tell, and got a reply they were busy doing quests. So I sat my butt on the Hlint benches waiting for them to finish.
Twenty minutes later a small group arrives, RP begins. One character was particulary abusive to my dwarf whilst others watched, and so RP turned to PVP ( or I could have walked away with my tail between my legs, but what dwarf does that? )
So after twenty minutes of waiting, ten minutes of talking and a PVP battle, I find I'm all alone again.

Had this been a fresh to person to Layo, then I bet that would have been the end of his trial run.
Altering the Group XP rate is going to be great news for people already here, and I do think it is a good idea, but it might not help so much the new people.
Even if they are lucky enough to log on and find a group, and if they are lucky enough to find the group is nearby and not already half-way down a dungeon, and even if they Dare ask a group of Epic strangers to wait ten minutes so a low level can run all the way to them, they still may have problems joining the group. For all they know, the group is a bunch of darkelves ( and your a dwarf) ... or your a Mistie and they're all Toranites.

My point is, if the early levels of Layo weren't so reliable on a group, I wouldn't have needed to sit around waiting for a group to join.
I could quite happily go wander off myself, knowing that it wont take 1000 grinds of the Red Light caves to get me a level higher and a little tougher and more capable, it would only take 10 grinds.
And if I knew I could level a little quicker, up to say level 10 or 15, I'd bet you a shiny nickle alot of other people would do the same.

And then suddenly I'm not soloing anymore... because everyone has the same idea as me, and so I'm bumping into adventurer's on the road again, finding them in the Goblin caves or out in the swamps.
And suddenly I'm in level-alike groups again.

Every time I look at Server Status, its populated by characters level 25+ .... always.
I bet even those Epic's might consider making a new character if they knew it wouldn't take a year to reach level 15. I know I certainly would.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: mixafix on August 13, 2012, 04:23:44 am
I think the answer is in there somewhere, most of the posting revolving around getting the players to the same level to better interact one way or another - and seeking a quicker or easier path to that point.
 
 I think ideally a new start would make it much easier to alter the XP progression and anything else required. However given the problems and likely impossibility of that route tweaking a tweak seems more likely.
 
 Not sure if can be narrowed down to the lower levels or not as a few players have complained about getting stuck and lonely at various levels but I think getting by quicker at the beginning (anywhere up to level 15 it seems) is most likely to retain new people and is maybe the priority.
 
 However reposting this below as it fits with some of the above posts.
 
 Some thoughts based on some suggestions here and elsewhere

xp allowed for PC in party together over a wider range than currently offered must surely help but seems only a part solution in that the lower pcs cannot contribute much to what is a level based game - RP is good and well and may fit many situations but the ones mentioned suggest combat and there the lower levels just cannot thrive on passing the bandages long term. Even in GM games rolling their dice is almost a waste for the same reasons.

Encouraging multiple characters with an aim of a smaller level range during play is going to make it possible to find one PC to fit when you log on and find someone else on of a different level/belief etc.

So perhaps a wider solution rather than just an xp reward fix is appopriate.

Relax the rule of six PCs

Increase the rewards over a wider level range, as discussed

Allow CDQ or other method to provide a player with a radical level upgrade where desired. IE if it is about RP and player A does not have the time to get to level 30 and we cant change the XP route for the server, maybe we can allow players to get to level 30 or whatever with say one PC after a certain RL time in game, regardless of actual play. (if he/she can RP a lvl 10 in a good manner - why not a lvl whatever...

Hopefully this keeps people from turning to grind/leaving - when they realise their time will never permit progression etc and is another way of providing new areas to some players perhaps more usefully than having a big brother lead them around as a low lvl PC- in this scenario they would be able to hold their own and the chances of finding a firt for a group would increase.

I think after all this time where many changes are impracticable due to resourcing or mechanics and numbers are short so as to prevent or make very difficult normal progession I would like to think we dont need every player to fight for every xp.

Rewards for other activity could be stepped up (as was mooted elsewhere) or could contribute towards the right to take an acccelerated character to CDQ or whatever to gain a level boost. Indeed any number of constraints could be put in to safeguard such a system - but the idea is that players get the chance to have at least one pc boosted to operate at an area outside their expectations given their normal rate of play.

If you can live with that concept I think the result could only enhance the chances of a better fit of players at any given time and encourage any who give up play for this reason.

Clearly players would not have to go down this route, but opening up the chance would maybe improve retention/recruitment
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 09:48:58 am
Much of what has been discussed and suggested above would take time to implement in some way or the other, whether it's a policy shift or changes to the modules in some way, shape or form.

Let me turn the question around and ask everyone who has responded a similar question but from a slightly different angle:

What can you, the players, do right now, without policy or module change, to start fostering the sort of connections everyone talks about as being among the best aspects of Layonara?

Along different lines, I direct this one specifically at people with well-established characters:

If some of the difficulties that plague lower levels (i.e. level 10 or below) in our reduced server population were lessened or eliminated, would you create a new character and not worry so much about how fast you have to get to Level X for whatever reason?  Similarly, would you consider coordinating with other established members (and potentially new ones) and create new characters as a group, not necessarily all affiliated (but it helps) so that the complaint of not enough people online to game with isn't an issue?

I'm curious about these things, because it won't matter how much we change if there's no buy-in from our players.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Hellblazer on August 13, 2012, 10:08:46 am
Quote from: Dorganath

If some of the difficulties that plague lower levels (i.e. level 10 or below) in our reduced server population were lessened or eliminated, would you create a new character and not worry so much about how fast you have to get to Level X for whatever reason?  Similarly, would you consider coordinating with other established members (and potentially new ones) and create new characters as a group, not necessarily all affiliated (but it helps) so that the complaint of not enough people online to game with isn't an issue?

I'm curious about these things, because it won't matter how much we change if there's no buy-in from our players.


From an old movie that I somewhat liked.

"If you build it they will come:

I say yes.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 13, 2012, 12:31:39 pm
I think ya'll need to make some lvl 1 characters so I can have someone to play with. :U

LOL
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 13, 2012, 12:38:38 pm
Quote from: Dorganath


What can you, the players, do right now, without policy or module change, to start fostering the sort of connections everyone talks about as being among the best aspects of Layonara?

Along different lines, I direct this one specifically at people with well-established characters:

If some of the difficulties that plague lower levels (i.e. level 10 or below) in our reduced server population were lessened or eliminated, would you create a new character and not worry so much about how fast you have to get to Level X for whatever reason?  Similarly, would you consider coordinating with other established members (and potentially new ones) and create new characters as a group, not necessarily all affiliated (but it helps) so that the complaint of not enough people online to game with isn't an issue?


Having less and more sporadic time to play than "back in the days" fostering those connections like I had back then with Rhizome, Plen and the rest of "The Red Caps" honestly isnt as likely. I would hope for some connections to be made. Every character that I have that has tried to go at it alone has had a far tougher time progressing than ones who made a connection.

I would definitely create a new character if changes were made that applied to lower level characters.... IF a change were also made to the 6 players per person rule. :) If not.... It is unlikely that I would create any new character(s)
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: willhoff on August 13, 2012, 01:40:42 pm
A few ideas on this:

1)  Start a mentoring program wereby established players can volunteer to be on a list to take one or more new players under their wing.  The new players can pick from the list based on their characters race, diety, class etc.  Once the new players char. reaches a certain level say level 10 the mentoring program ends allowing the established player to take on another new player.  During the mentoring process the mentor and apprentise can then feel free to set up in game times to interact, or pm eachother with questions and so on.

2)  As was said ealier, reduce the amount of xp needed to advance to level 12.

3)  Maybe tweak the level restrictions for certain items like weapons and armour.  If I recall correctly, it seemed that adamantium blade that I can finally weild would have been much more useful at earlier levels.  I also recall making a weapon or armour only to find I couldnt weild it because of the level restriction, which seemed strange.  This probably would be a huge undertaking for the team so not sure it its feasable.

I'll try to think of others....
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Shiokara on August 13, 2012, 02:20:40 pm
Wanted to respond to Willhoff's #1 with respect to Dorg's post. Willhoff, this mentoring program could be your baby. You don't really need much DM support for it. All you'd need is a group of like-minded individuals and a forum thread or section (I recommend section).

One thread would be for a list of the members and player requests, which could be cleared out over time. You could even have specialists if certain of your members wanted to focus more on explaining mechanics versus roleplay or non-mechanic progression.

As far as DM support goes, you might not need more than a few references to your thread. Like add a line that says, "Now that you're approved, you could go get a mentor to be your Obi Wan in this land!" after character approval.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dremora on August 13, 2012, 03:30:03 pm
I have several low level characters I don't play because low levels are boring. So I would'nt even need to create new characters, I could just play those. Besides as for buy-in from players, I don't create new characters simply because I feel they won't go anywhere before I get bored. Were this no longer the case, then ofcourse I would submit new chars depending on when I feel like RPing a different concept.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 04:17:23 pm
Quote from: Shiokara
Wanted to respond to Willhoff's #1 with respect to Dorg's post. Willhoff, this mentoring program could be your baby. You don't really need much DM support for it. All you'd need is a group of like-minded individuals and a forum thread or section (I recommend section).

One thread would be for a list of the members and player requests, which could be cleared out over time. You could even have specialists if certain of your members wanted to focus more on explaining mechanics versus roleplay or non-mechanic progression.

As far as DM support goes, you might not need more than a few references to your thread. Like add a line that says, "Now that you're approved, you could go get a mentor to be your Obi Wan in this land!" after character approval.

Absolutely correct.

There's a whole lot the community can do for the community without GM or admin intervention.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 13, 2012, 05:02:46 pm
If the XP kill is adjusted that is... otherwise its just an RP thing between a high level and the lowbie. Don't get me wrong RP is awesome... but again RP only goes so far to "advancing" a character.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Shiokara on August 13, 2012, 05:56:11 pm
Quote from: Guardian 452
If the XP kill is adjusted that is... otherwise its just an RP thing between a high level and the lowbie. Don't get me wrong RP is awesome... but again RP only goes so far to "advancing" a character.


This is not wholly true. Veterans can escort lowbie players even if they aren't grouped--nothing in Layonara is instanced. In fact, the lowbie has to drop party any time he needs to accept/complete quests anyway. Clerics/Sorcs/Bards/Rangers/Paladins/Druids/Wizards--heck any caster class has some buff that can help a lowbie solo those pesky sewer rats. This can all be RPed as training. Then, at a preset level, you could ask if that player wants to go through the rites to become a member of the escorts. This will serve as a community-based tutorial on guilds and will also increase the number of escorts and such.

It could also server as a tutorial for CDQs if the player wanted (wholly optional) to have CDQ support for joining the escorts.

I would suggest proposing this group as a charter, too, so there is some in-game lore for the escorts. Escorts should also agree on a symbol that marks them as such in-game that must be worn at all times. A certain standard to be held when not helping someone, or a certain pattern on a cloak.

The escort forum should also suggest good pairings based upon character classes. Finally, if an escort and player should not get along, then the escort has to be swapped out. And this should be documented via private tells or a request for change of escort thread.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 13, 2012, 06:00:10 pm
The whole ungrouped method to me at least wreaks of an exploit... a way to get around a system or rules. Ive had people offer to assist me in this manor already and I've declined. Maybe its just me who sees it this way.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Shiokara on August 13, 2012, 06:05:02 pm
Quote from: Guardian 452
The whole ungrouped method to me at least wreaks of an exploit... a way to get around a system or rules. Ive had people offer to assist me in this manor already and I've declined. Maybe its just me who sees it this way.


No doubt it's an exploit, but at this stage in the game, and since we're talking about new players and how to retain them, we might as well get everything we can out on the table.

Honestly, I'm not terribly concerned about upholding ethics related to the mechanics of NWN. The mechanics of NWN are outdated--if the workarounds help foster roleplay and retain players, I'll throw them out the window.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on August 13, 2012, 06:22:35 pm
Eh, I don't think it's an exploit, and here's why:

If you're not partied up, the XP isn't shared. This means that if the high level character kills the baddy for the low level character, the low level character gets 0 XP. This in fact encourages the low level characters to do the real work rather than having the high level character do the killing while the low levels hang back and soak XP, which would be the case if we tweaked party XP like is being discussed.

In essence, the low level character/party of low level characters are adventuring without the epic escort as far as XP goes, but are with the escort as far as knowledge and RP goes. And it even makes sense, that when the Epic steps in to save the bacon of the low levels when they get in over their heads, the low levels don't get any XP from the monsters that likely would have killed them.

Really, why didn't I think of this before? Sometimes it's the most simple answer.... I could have been doing this with low level groups already... **slaps forehead**
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 07:00:51 pm
There is a way it could become an exploit, though that effect can be somewhat self-limiting for a few reasons.  What milty describes is accurate, however.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: lonnarin on August 13, 2012, 07:14:31 pm
Prior to this server, I used to game on an ungrouped party system.  It didn't really change the manner of RP or ease of XP one way or the other, except it lowered the lag a little and made it harder to send tells to multiple people easily.  The XP system was a little wonky, when they kept the Bioware XP chart progression, but you could at most get 45xp/kill, and typically "good" areas would get you 10-12xp a kill.  It felt a little broken when the levels strayed too much and you'd suddenly get 1xp/kill.  Kind of was a downer really.

I don't mind our current system too much, save for the "speedbump" levels where the hurdle set rises sharply.  The lvl 9 and lvl 12 hurdle is the most notable I think.  I always remember getting frustrated with my characters and deleting them right about then for a new concept.  Finally I made much tougher characters with better hp/con scores, more fine-tuned class combo/skill selections and finally acended to the 20th level eschelon... after years and years.  Sat there at level 20 with most of them.  Kurn busted through on his own, while Farros and Bjorn only made it due to the free levels given during the Dragon Storm quest series.  That little boon was a real treat!  Maybe if we put up more series like that where its a long spanning sequence of events all interelated, and involvement was a flat out level?  What I like about those, is that characters usually stagnate and get deleted right around those speedbump levels.  Events like the Dragon Storm quest helped a whole slew get over their respective hurdles, and people gamed pretty hard in the subsequent weeks.

I think in terms of gameplay experience, some of those big level XP req jumps can be disheartening.  You get so far then suddenly you need to gain about all the XP you have gained so far to push you one more level.  And then that xp hikes and hikes.  It's kind of like doing Indian Runs in track.  You jog and its all nice and happy pace, then the line gets longer and longer as the guy in back has to sprint to the front.  You chuckle, but then suddenly its your turn in the back to sprint to the front, and man that hurts.  Keep jogging more and more and you still feel that sprint in your lungs.  And then you sprint really hard again, and again.  By the third lap, you want to reach up inside your lungs and rip them out, just collapes and let the rest of the track team keep jogging.  That's what those speedbump level sometimes feel like when you're playing normally, then you realize that you need to grind a level appropriate hunting area 100+ times or go on 10-20 quests to hit next level.  I would highly suggest normalizing the xp chart a bit to ease those transition levels.  

I do notice that we've relaxed the rules quite a bit on levels far apart grouping, and think we also made xp gains a bit more substantial when they are grouped than we had it years ago.  I think the minimum xp gained for any critter is at least its challenge rating?  I suggest double or quadruple the minimum xp gained.  and level 1 critter gains you at least 4 xp per one killed.  Every 10th level monster gains you 40.  20th level monsters get you at least 80... no matter what level.  That would bring more incentive to higher level players helping lower-mid level players, lower level players tagging along with higher level players, and Solo players to stick around in lower level areas which may be a bit safer and be able to feel progress when the server is empty.  Sometimes I just like to "mess around" and slay lots of lower level stuff instead of running out to Miritrix or the Deep.  Kind of like Drizz't vs. a Thousand Orcs.  They made a novel trilogy on an epic gaining a level after kill a thousand low level mobs! ;)

I would also like the cap raised for slots.  I would make a new level 1 immediately if it were allowed.  That is probably the easiest thing to do, just give a thumbs up and shout "let there be slots!"  No coding involved.  Of course, as to not beleager the character approval team, I would limit the number of submissions a player can make as a factor fo time.  Say you can get up to 4 starting out, but new characters submitted for after that are only approved 2 months after the last, regardless of whether you deleted a character or not. I don't like deleting characters, even if they are "stuck", it feels like getting a divorce or attending a funeral of a beloved family member.  If we had both a buffer to keep the CA team safe from a flood, and an incentive bonus to make new characters without deleting the ones we have nostalgic attachment to, that would be a decent compromise.  I think a time-dilation approval system rather than a flat cap with deletion and substitution would be manageable and encourage retention.

Housing: a policy of only one per PLAYER and regular 3-6 month sweeps.  I always cringe when an up and coming mid level can afford a house and can't have one because one player has more than 2 and I haven't seen them log in for years.  Kudos on the recent sweep, we need more of them.  I don't think a tax system is needed, but regular pusle-checking for activity would be key.  And not just logging in to save the house either, perhaps a 20 hour requirement of the actual owner over 3-6 months to keep the house active.  Only active players should be owning real estate.  This makes room for those actually playing with desire in their bellies.  This should hold true also for leaders of organizations to keep the rank and file active.

On soul strands, perhaps we can compromise and make the soul strand +5 feat gainable by 10th+ level and stackable one more time?  Don't do away with perma death entirely, but just give it a little nudge.  Those who prefer it as it is don't have to take the feats...
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 07:23:47 pm
Quote from: lonnarin
Housing: a policy of only one per PLAYER and regular 3-6 month sweeps.  I always cringe when an up and coming mid level can afford a house and can't have one because one player has more than 2 and I haven't seen them log in for years.  Kudos on the recent sweep, we need more of them.  I don't think a tax system is needed, but regular pusle-checking for activity would be key.  And not just logging in to save the house either, perhaps a 20 hour requirement of the actual owner over 3-6 months to keep the house active.  Only active players should be owning real estate.  This makes room for those actually playing with desire in their bellies.

As of this post, there are 22 houses for sale across both servers. I still have more to release.

At this point, there's little reason to impose a per-player limit, but the per-character limit is staying (guild halls excepted).
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Hellblazer on August 13, 2012, 07:24:46 pm
Quote from: Shiokara
This is not wholly true. Veterans can escort lowbie players even if they aren't grouped--nothing in Layonara is instanced. In fact, the lowbie has to drop party any time he needs to accept/complete quests anyway. Clerics/Sorcs/Bards/Rangers/Paladins/Druids/Wizards--heck any caster class has some buff that can help a lowbie solo those pesky sewer rats. This can all be RPed as training. Then, at a preset level, you could ask if that player wants to go through the rites to become a member of the escorts. This will serve as a community-based tutorial on guilds and will also increase the number of escorts and such.


There are many quests that can be completed as a party Ie talked to the npc and the quest is finished.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 13, 2012, 07:47:52 pm
Lonn I too regret sending several of my characters to the recycle bin. I am very much with you on just announcing a ding and having all of us who followed the spirit of the rules given another character slot. Those of you who exploited the system with using multiple NWN login to circumvent the rules in place you're outta luck on this one!
I love the idea of having a 2 month (maybe 3 month) gap from one submission to the next. I think that is a fantastic way to help ease the burden on CA's

Is it a server lag issue if we had 12 characters? What was the reason for the rule being set at 6?
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Hellblazer on August 13, 2012, 08:02:24 pm
Quote from: Guardian 452
Lonn I too regret sending several of my characters to the recycle bin. I am very much with you on just announcing a ding and having all of us who followed the spirit of the rules given another character slot. Those of you who exploited the system with using multiple NWN login to circumvent the rules in place you're outta luck on this one!
I love the idea of having a 2 month (maybe 3 month) gap from one submission to the next. I think that is a fantastic way to help ease the burden on CA's

Is it a server lag issue if we had 12 characters? What was the reason for the rule being set at 6?


Careful some of us have multiple logins but haven't broken the 6 char limit either. Just saying so this doesn't slip further into a can or worm.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: Guardian 452
What was the reason for the rule being set at 6?

Two reasons:

1) To encourage a focus on RP and development for a small number of characters rather than having a stable of throw-away characters.

2) To reduce CA burdens because of said throw-away characters.

The rule is very old, incidentally. It's been here since I joined.  

I can think of at least one player who has pushed the limits of both of these within the last year, including a bevvy of characters that were approved after much back-and-forth (due to the difficulty of the concepts and/or lore issues) that were never played and actually deleted within weeks of approval.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Shiokara on August 13, 2012, 08:15:52 pm
Please try to keep this thread (relatively) clean for suggestions and responses to those suggestions. Try not to worry so much about syntax and commentary that is capable of starting an argument.

That said, a larger character limit helps new players indirectly by giving them a player base that they can relate to (relatively) equally--player alts.

I wonder, though, if that is enough? For example, if we just get an extra character slot, make the new character, and level it up outside of doing so with new players, then not much will change. It would be similarly silly if Shiff and I made new characters and then duo'd most of the time. That's not forming new relationships--it's just rerolling.

It might be nice (though not mandatory) for mentors to keep one character slot open/reserved for a lowbie character if the new player wishes to have a more equalized grouping experience.

//Also, sorry to the CA's as I think I've been one of those who Dorg mentioned below. Love you guys!
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 08:36:59 pm
Actually I had someone else in mind, but thanks for adding to my list. *winks*
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: RollinsCat on August 13, 2012, 08:44:05 pm
Just as an aside (and relevant to some of this discussion) for those who show up tonight for the bard's Guide session, I will be ungrouped (per below).  Merely along as color commentary and songs, so don't worry about xp loss and bring your rp A-game.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Lynn1020 on August 13, 2012, 08:45:05 pm
There is a lot of replies and I did not read them all so I may be just repeating what others have mentioned...

I know the permadeath has been the reason for many players to take time off which lead to them stop playing. When we are told that is not even up for discussion that closes the door for many players.  

Our 10 year old daughter still ask me to let her make a character here.  I will not let her as long as there is permadeath.  As said many times by many people..... this is a game... not reality . No one wants to spend all this time into creating a character to only lose them.

Also I do not want to have to deal with getting a character approved for her.  It becomes a huge deal and just leads to frustration.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 08:52:02 pm
Quote from: Lynn1020
Also I do not want to have to deal with getting a character approved for her.  It becomes a huge deal and just leads to frustration.

Have you looked at the process recently? It's significantly different from what you remember.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Lynn1020 on August 13, 2012, 09:27:14 pm
I had heard that it had changed a bit.  But you would have to know our daughter... she plays Minecraft with her brother on Xbox and had a melt down because she died and dropped all of her things.  No way I want to deal with her loosing a SS.  It would be much worse than me loosing one. ;)
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 09:34:33 pm
Quote from: Lynn1020
I had heard that it had changed a bit.  But you would have to know our daughter... she plays Minecraft with her brother on Xbox and had a melt down because she died and dropped all of her things.  No way I want to deal with her loosing a SS.  It would be much worse than me loosing one. ;)

*laughs* Fair enough.  *smiles*
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 13, 2012, 10:07:15 pm
Quote from: Dorganath
Actually I had someone else in mind, but thanks for adding to my list. *winks*


I know I'm guilty for it atleast once... ._.  But there was supposed to be a group of us and they all disappeared right after approval. :L
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: jadewillow on August 13, 2012, 10:28:30 pm
I know this thread is about what we could do better, and there have been many great ideas including some of my own :)

But I thought I'd take the opportunity to praise something that I think has greatly improved. I recently submitted a new character submission for a darkelf and I was surprised at the quick treatment. I was expecting to hear something in about a week, but got a response in only about an hour. It was very brief and to the point. Giving me feedback on gaps in my application regarding LORE. I quickly made the suggested corrections and it was approved that day. Much improved from my previous experiences.

Thank you Gilshem!
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Chongo on August 13, 2012, 11:32:16 pm
Quote from: Guardian 452
Sorry Chongo... I call em like I see em.

Naturally.  I don't think that comment is unfair.  I check the forums  now and then to look for something interesting enough to make me want to  play here again.  I do this for me, and I won't pretend it's anything  else.  Nor do I think my opinion should hold more stock for the  community than anyone else's.  Past efforts, current efforts, past  positions, current positions... they don't matter here - the initial  query from Row was regarding growing the playerbase.

So as one person who sometimes considers playing here again, I say that  responses like yours are the choir of the unchanging.  It's the current  and active playerbase, which should never be undervalued mind you, that  goes tit for tat on every little change that it ends up barely blowing  your own hair back when the change comes.  My opinion is that the  minutia that results in these underwhelming discussions does little to  grow the playerbase while still giving the team excess work.  This in  turn sometimes drives team assets away and you end up retaining a peace  keeping force instead of creative drivers.  And mind you, I'm not  implying myself as the latter - there are much bigger fish that have  been in that sea.

Again, not to be undervalued, the active community rarely wants change  that might potentially compromise efforts or change the rules by which  they did it fairly with their own hands... I have been there, and I know  how it sounds.  But honestly - you deserve what you get.  By all means  cling to what you have and have deservedly fought for individually...  just realize that without hair-blowing-back change amongst things most  have already seen and experienced - you might end up clinging to your  own crown and little else.

I like Milty's idea.  I think that the choir is confusing it with  shutting down the persistence of the servers when it's really just  internal outreach to get little adventuring companies planned amongst  old friends.  Let it occur in these little groups and empower them.  I  don't think anyone is talking about old school quests with 30 people.   Empower small groups to do their own thing and use the server actively  for small-group plot and dynamic.  Give them an interesting and easy  avenue to start up and have things more interesting than 7 days of rat  killing in tattered cloths whilst trying to have an adventure together  that rivals the other things available elsewhere.

I don't think this is Layo's vision, and I'm alright with it.  Hopefully  one inactive voice with an unabashed statement of need and opinion is  taken for what it is - bothering to tell you.  Years ago when it all  seemed so bustling with life here... it wasn't hordes of people like you  willing to stay the course for a decade, it was voices like what I'm  entertaining here.  They're not bad people, they just didn't sign on for  til death do us part.  Either embrace solitude amongst those that  chugged through with unchanging discipline - or adapt quickly enough to  get small surges here and there.  I think you're all fine folks either  way, but you deserve what you get.

And kill the boldface bud.  No hard feelings, and this is blatantly  patronizing, but I look back with several  shades of shame on how I used to write on these forums.   This will likely be one more shade someday, but hey, adapt and keep growing right?  They're either  going to read it or they won't (this is definitely too long), and the  boldface just calls people into the soundbyte.  I wish I was more  like Rhiz.  Everyone should.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: davidhoff on August 13, 2012, 11:51:26 pm
Ditto to Jade.  I have been very pleased to see the character approval process speed up dramatically.  Folks are getting approved right off-the-bat and with little or no corrections.  You CA's are doing a great job!  Keep the train rolling.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 11:58:15 pm
Quote from: Chongo
I like Milty's idea.  I think that the choir is confusing it with  shutting down the persistence of the servers when it's really just  internal outreach to get little adventuring companies planned amongst  old friends.  Let it occur in these little groups and empower them.  I  don't think anyone is talking about old school quests with 30 people.   Empower small groups to do their own thing and use the server actively  for small-group plot and dynamic.  Give them an interesting and easy  avenue to start up and have things more interesting than 7 days of rat  killing in tattered cloths whilst trying to have an adventure together  that rivals the other things available elsewhere.

He can do this now. In a way, he already is doing this now. It is an option, not the only option.  Yeah, we're saying the same thing on that (try not to fall over dead).  Some people will like it. Others won't.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 13, 2012, 11:59:34 pm
Quote from: jadewillow
I know this thread is about what we could do better, and there have been many great ideas including some of my own :)

But I thought I'd take the opportunity to praise something that I think has greatly improved. I recently submitted a new character submission for a darkelf and I was surprised at the quick treatment. I was expecting to hear something in about a week, but got a response in only about an hour. It was very brief and to the point. Giving me feedback on gaps in my application regarding LORE. I quickly made the suggested corrections and it was approved that day. Much improved from my previous experiences.

Thank you Gilshem!

Quote from: Dorganath
He can do this now. In a way, he already is doing this now. It is an option, not the only option.  Yeah, we're saying the same thing on that (try not to fall over dead).  Some people will like it. Others won't.

Thanks to you both for giving the CA team some well-deserved recognition.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Lynn1020 on August 14, 2012, 01:28:08 am
As I look for my old disk...this  popped in my head.  Maybe a link on the home page where new players can  buy and download the game right then?
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: willhoff on August 14, 2012, 01:36:24 am
okay the mentoring program (http://forums.layonara.com/roleplaying/286013-mentoring.html#post1743574) is up.  Let me know if it needs any changes or if you have any suggestions.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Nehetsrev on August 14, 2012, 07:51:27 am
Quote from: Lynn1020
As I look for my old disk...this  popped in my head.  Maybe a link on the home page where new players can  buy and download the game right then?
 
With a page of detailed step-by-step instructions about where and how to find the files for NWN to patch it up to the final version (including links to where the NWN Critical Rebuild can be downloaded), as well as where to find the Layonara specific HAK files and how to install them too, right?
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Hellblazer on August 14, 2012, 11:30:22 am
Quote from: Nehetsrev
With a page of detailed step-by-step instructions about where and how to find the files for NWN to patch it up to the final version (including links to where the NWN Critical Rebuild can be downloaded), as well as where to find the Layonara specific HAK files and how to install them too, right?


I think the should host the patch in their download section. I don't think there's any legal issues about having the patch ready to download on one's website as long as it's open to the public and not sold.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on August 14, 2012, 01:50:11 pm
Quote
With a page of detailed step-by-step instructions about where and how to find the files for NWN to patch it up to the final version (including links to where the NWN Critical Rebuild can be downloaded), as well as where to find the Layonara specific HAK files and how to install them too, right?


Yeah, it's kind of been on my to-do list to make a giant link page in LORE with stuff like this, but, well, RL, quest priorities, and some other things have kept me from digging into that.

But I suppose it's about time to get that on the table again.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 14, 2012, 02:32:05 pm
It's probably a good idea to move that suggestion to the proper forum.  It'll get lost here.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Eight-Bit on August 17, 2012, 10:24:04 am
I'm not going to have a lot to add to this conversation just because writing it all would take entirely too much time, of which I have literally zero. However I do check in the forums every once in a while and it's nice to see people that I saw join the server back when it was like me and 15 other people are still around.

One of my fondest memories of playing here was the feeling in my gut I felt when me and some others were in a high level dungeon and someone checked the server status and said..

"Leanthar is on."
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: LordCove on August 18, 2012, 08:40:25 am
I know this thread was supposed to close as per I'm going to leave it open for a few more days for those who'd like to offer suggestions about developing a stronger community. This thread will close on or around noon CDT of the 15th. .... but I wanted to hit on something Dorg asked that none seemed to answer.

If some of the difficulties that plague lower levels (i.e. level 10 or below) in our reduced server population were lessened or eliminated, would you create a new character and not worry so much about how fast you have to get to Level X for whatever reason? Similarly, would you consider coordinating with other established members (and potentially new ones) and create new characters as a group, not necessarily all affiliated (but it helps) so that the complaint of not enough people online to game with isn't an issue?

I bring this back up because at the moment, I am sat on the fence. I am eager to create a new character and re-enter Layo, but not if I am all alone spending the rare few hours I have available grinding dungeons repeatedly or sitting on a bench waiting for people to log on.

A lot of people ( myself included ) have mentioned having some change to the xp rate. This would be great... but as Dorg said, if there is no one ( or hardly) anyone below level 10 online to benefit from the change... then what is the point?

So I'm asking... would anyone ( old players who have left, existing players, new players) start a new character? Not when Dorg decides IF some of the above changes will take place, but NOW?
Is there even enough interest to make these changes worthwhile?
( For selfish reasons, I'm particularly interested in GMT timers )
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 18, 2012, 08:53:55 am
Will I make a new character now before any changes go into affect?

No. My character slots are full and I have no desire to delete any of them at this time.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: RollinsCat on August 18, 2012, 09:30:58 am
For those contemplating new characters, don't forget the Mentoring  (http://forums.layonara.com/roleplaying/286013-mentoring.html)program - all the people on that list will help you with quests, getting chars into the world and connected to happenings, possibly odd jobs to help them earn True, etc - form a connection (friendly, benign, or possibly nefarious).
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Alatriel on August 18, 2012, 09:35:06 am
Quote from: LordCove

So I'm asking... would anyone ( old players who have left, existing players, new players) start a new character? Not when Dorg decides IF some of the above changes will take place, but NOW?
Is there even enough interest to make these changes worthwhile?
( For selfish reasons, I'm particularly interested in GMT timers )


I'm pretty sure there's a few low-level GMT players that have characters under lvl 10 right now.  I don't know that they're always on at the same time, but I know they're there.  You could always start a new thread, but I started one a while back when trying to figure out how to schedule my quest series, and there seemed to be a decent number of GMT players.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Hellblazer on August 18, 2012, 10:07:45 am
Quote from: LordCove
I know this thread was supposed to close as per I'm going to leave it open for a few more days for those who'd like to offer suggestions about developing a stronger community. This thread will close on or around noon CDT of the 15th. .... but I wanted to hit on something Dorg asked that none seemed to answer.

If some of the difficulties that plague lower levels (i.e. level 10 or below) in our reduced server population were lessened or eliminated, would you create a new character and not worry so much about how fast you have to get to Level X for whatever reason? Similarly, would you consider coordinating with other established members (and potentially new ones) and create new characters as a group, not necessarily all affiliated (but it helps) so that the complaint of not enough people online to game with isn't an issue?

I bring this back up because at the moment, I am sat on the fence. I am eager to create a new character and re-enter Layo, but not if I am all alone spending the rare few hours I have available grinding dungeons repeatedly or sitting on a bench waiting for people to log on.

A lot of people ( myself included ) have mentioned having some change to the xp rate. This would be great... but as Dorg said, if there is no one ( or hardly) anyone below level 10 online to benefit from the change... then what is the point?

So I'm asking... would anyone ( old players who have left, existing players, new players) start a new character? Not when Dorg decides IF some of the above changes will take place, but NOW?
Is there even enough interest to make these changes worthwhile?
( For selfish reasons, I'm particularly interested in GMT timers )


Not GMT here but as a response to the idea and as I stated earlier, I would
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: davidhoff on August 18, 2012, 10:38:31 am
There's a fairly large number of existing lowbie characters around I think...they just need to be lured out with some candy.  I think having LordCove back in the game would be a huge benefit to the server; one of the best RP'rs I've seen and made me laugh more times than I can count.  I would create a new char if LC came back on.  I'd need a general theme so I don't make a char that ends up killing yours our first meet.  A set time to play once a week would be good to I think at least to get us all out at once.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 18, 2012, 12:06:11 pm
Quote from: LordCove
A lot of people ( myself included ) have mentioned having some change to the xp rate. This would be great... but as Dorg said, if there is no one ( or hardly) anyone below level 10 online to benefit from the change... then what is the point?

To be accurate, I said this:

Quote from: Dorganath
I'm curious about these things, because it  won't matter how much we change if there's no buy-in from our  players.

Meaning that I could change all sorts of stuff about the low-level experience, but if none of our existing players would bother to start over again and not race up to 20th (and beyond) then it will continue to be very difficult for the new player, as this is in the context of community building.

Bear in mind, the primary reason for my question about creating new characters was that this would immediately eliminate the lack of low-level characters (with experienced players) while any changes to XP progressions/calculations are debated and implemented.

The secondary reason is to gauge the community's willingness to be part of any community building efforts rather than just waiting for something from the team. I freely acknowledge the various teams here play critical roles in the player experience, new and old.  Yet it is equally true that the community as a whole plays an arguably equally critical role.  You know the old saying: You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. I think this applies pretty strongly here.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: mixafix on August 18, 2012, 12:06:23 pm
In reply to LCove
 
 As has been said there are plenty of low level pcs, and I have 2 -happy to play if they fit.
 
 I would start another PC but PC limits prevents this.
 
 So if these wont work and you needed a totally themed group  - no not under current rules.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: mixafix on August 18, 2012, 12:53:07 pm
First and foremost mostly I think the server needs rewarding events, GM led or otherwise. There is just not enough going on and most of it is wishful thinking in respect of actually reaching any finishing points or even a chapter finish.
 
 Mentoring and allowing range of playing levels to increase is something, but likely unsatisfactory in the end. Anything that requires too much building, time intensive solutions or additional input from the team wont likely work, given the obvious constraints on time.
 
 So here is another wild card idea, and I keep returning to this theme in one form or another to encourage playability. This one still allows better level progress perhaps.
 
 Most players have multiple characters now. The big guy, the middle dude and my new project. With some additional ideas here and there, sure.
 
 So returning to the theme you dont need to grind out every level and with 40 to choose from the range is often too great for compatibility when trying to find someone to play with.
 
 Could this be reduced to three smaller ranges of hard to earn XP say for example
 
 lvl 12-16
 lvl 21-25
 lvl 34-38
 
 You literally fly through the rest but these levels above are hard, harder than now perhaps.
 
 The point being you still have levels and progression but these hard levels trap players within 5 levels of each other for a protracted period.
 
 Rather than a single group of five levels at some point this system will use all the current server and the dungeons within. (no changes required on that basis)
 
 Now this as has been stated by Dorg elsewhere will mess with the current xp of all current characters and that would need some player and GM support but generally the idea is push players up the way.
 
 All newish players would be level 10 or less and no issues.
 
 For the rest..
 The system can be set so that pcs do not lose levels without agreement.
 
 say for example when all is said and done a pc at lvl 35 finds himself at 34..he gets the option to be boosted to 35.
 
 (in this respect I am uncertain whether tweaking xp reward or character level xp, or a combination of both will be an easier route.)
 
 But with no real need for the 3.5 million stumble at level 21 there would be some xp distribution available to prevent too much messing with the PC XP scale.
 
 There would be issues with equipment and such for initial logging on after a change(expecially after an absence) but that has happened before and been dealt with.
 
 It would require some work initially but then would need no work, other than sorting the logging of returning PCs.
 
 It would by default bring players closer together in levels for play, yet continue to allow progress.
 
 It would work with and enhance any other solutions mooted here and so people could continue with any other ideas they had in mind.
 
 It would also blow a breath of fresh air into the game without changing too much at all. How much you tweaked level progress is perhaps another debate but the idea in this example given would be for 14-15th to be harder than 10-11. This will keep more players closer in levels.
 
 The levels in between these hard to earn levels really need to be a lot easier than the hard levels. EG level 17 - 18 needs to be even easier than 10-11...as these transient levels become lonlier places but rewarding as levels fly by to the next stage of the game at the next level trap...where friends await!
 
 This may sound like a worn record - and thats my age right, but one way or another we need people on doing things and having fun!
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Link092 on August 18, 2012, 02:00:43 pm
I've got two characters level 5 and 4, and another at level 10. I've never gone beyond level 12. I also have plenty of room for some more if that isn't low enough level.

Sure, I'm not on all the time, but most of the time I'm actually online, either everyone is already on a quest, busy with some dungeon run that would squash me, or there is one person on is is only there to really take care of a little business before logging off. Honestly, beyond that, there's no one online when I'm able to make some free time for layo. And occasionally I rush in when I see server status saying there's one or two people online. then I'm disappointed when I get there because they are gone.


Needless to say, at that point, I honestly don't feel like logging on with no one online and waiting, nor when there is a one or two people (whom are usually level 20 or more). Because I won't benefit from it. I could care less about the xp. I don't grind. It's against my nature. I loathe work (*cough*). And those two hours that I used to spend waiting, nowdays to me, is time I can spend playing League of Legends or DOTA 2 in some quick paced fun for a short dedicated period of time. I know that sounds bad, but at least I'm being honest.

I love layo to death. Even after I disappeared for some quality time with university, I would always have a moment where I thought "huh, wonder how layo is doing", and I'd come lurk for a day or two. I have a bit more time now, so I'm trying to be more active. Heck, I enjoyed the creation concept of characters so much, I think I went through about 10 of them. I'd play them until their concept went dry. Or in some cases, those they associated with most sky rocketed in levels, so trying to create meaningful interaction was extremely hard.

Today, I have three characters. 1, I thought it would be silly to get rid of my very first character. :U the other two I enjoy their concepts more than usual because they are both common persona's I play in regular PnP campaigns, albeit slightly different.

In regards to comments of who would benefit from any change, It's not a matter of looking at the established player base at this time. Because they're pretty much committed.  And yes, I know that we're not really going to attract a bunch of new players. But those whom we attract get left in the dust by some others, and it makes the whole experience.... not fun. If layo had a much larger and more active player base like it used to, then I wouldn't bother considering this, but at this moment, a new player should be able to pick up and run with the rest of the pack only after several days to a couple weeks of gameplay. From level 15 and up, everything is fair game the way it is. The more common places to be don't result in the murder of the character, and they are more eligible to contribute to party's traveling to further out places. Sure, I can go a lot of places as my lil' monk, or sneak just about everywhere with that silly Dark Elf, But anywhere beyond the most common places of Mistone, none of them could contribute to a party. Yes, yes. There is the Role Play perspective. But honestly, if my character has a very good chance of dying. and he/she knows it. They probably wouldn't go in the first place. It doesn't matter that there are 3 level 40's in the party. IC, they can't just go "oh hey thur, I'm totally aware that you can punch holes through adamantine walls" and assume all is well and they can travel safely with them. That just destroys immersion for me.

I'm not asking for a handout. I don't want it. But if you're wanting to keep the interest of new players and/or characters, you're gonna need a better way for them to get up to snuff. Because almost everyone else who is active, unless they have just recently created a new character, they sit anywhere from level 15 and up. This is just my observation.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Guardian 452 on August 18, 2012, 02:39:54 pm
Now me saying I wouldnt delete a character in order to make a new one.... i presently have characters level 8 and 10 that can work with other low level peeps. Neither of those characters seem to be progressing anytime soon on their own.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Wisper.2 on August 18, 2012, 05:57:58 pm
Well, one additional thought as for a fast track for new players. Maybe characters in your "stable" could be started at level 10 instead of level 1.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Wisper.2 on August 18, 2012, 10:08:19 pm
I wanted to expound on my previous suggestion a tiny bit, after going through the forum some.

This is something I, myself, would love to see:

Encourage DMs to set up regular series of casual and just-for-fun (not huge world changing campaign) quests for level 10-12-ish folk. I think that's a good point where you can take advantage of a lot of your character's class potential, and also have some survivability to explore, especially in a group.

Using your character stable concept, the DM creates some characters who would fit perfectly with their quest, background and all, and put them in the stable for people who want to take part in the quest (label them as such, for xx quest only)

These characters would start at a level where they could jump into the quest and the world (like I said above, maybe 10-12.) Maybe throw them a bone with the bare minimum of equipment to be useful, etc. DM supervised at the beginning of the quest, of course.

Seek out people in other RP forums to play these characters, as well as casual players here. No applications necessary, just show up and get handed a character.

The only caveat is that you can't play that character in the world until the quest series is over, which will also give the DM a chance to weed out any troublemakers.

This'd get me and maybe a few NWN friends of mine playing here for sure..
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: mixafix on August 20, 2012, 07:02:27 am
In response to a previous point by Dorg about what players can do to help improve things...
 
 This is not particularly a player solution per se, but is an extra pair of hands in respect of what can be achieved currently.
 
 Happy to commit to ongoing building of replacement areas or refresh existing areas.
 
 Happy to do this at target levels or to particular areas of the world.
 
 Happy to do this driven by previous storylines, ongoing storylines or stories still to come  - driven by GM requests.
 
 Happy to do this driven by player action in RP outwith GM led quests. (driving change where players have driven iniatives and change might be merited whether small or big changes -all with team approval of course)
 
 Particularly happy if Chongo could/would help
 
 Particularly happy to attain and sustain a system of change that involved many people here one way or another, from GMs writing tales, to players leading plots and doing things or not doing things that have visible consequences to encounters and areas. All with a view to encouraging and retaining player involvement.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 20, 2012, 08:15:28 am
Quote from: mixafix
In response to a previous point by Dorg about what players can do to help improve things...
 
 This is not particularly a player solution per se, but is an extra pair of hands in respect of what can be achieved currently.
 
 Happy to commit to ongoing building of replacement areas or refresh existing areas.
 
 Happy to do this at target levels or to particular areas of the world.
 
 Happy to do this driven by previous storylines, ongoing storylines or stories still to come  - driven by GM requests.
 
 Happy to do this driven by player action in RP outwith GM led quests. (driving change where players have driven iniatives and change might be merited whether small or big changes -all with team approval of course)
 
 Particularly happy if Chongo could/would help
 
 Particularly happy to attain and sustain a system of change that involved many people here one way or another, from GMs writing tales, to players leading plots and doing things or not doing things that have visible consequences to encounters and areas. All with a view to encouraging and retaining player involvement.

Actually, no, I'm not talking about an "extra pair of hands".  I was, in fact, talking about non-mechanical things that the player base can do to contribute to the community and the experience in-game.

The fact is, we could build the most amazing, dynamic world possible, but it means nothing if players are not logging in, being accessible to low-level characters and more importantly new players.

What I was asking about is the willingness of participation and contribution by the community right now without having to wait for an update or a change in this, that or the other.  Updates take time. A change in player patterns and behaviors can happen immediately.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Aphel on August 20, 2012, 09:33:40 am
Quote from: Dorganath
[...] A change in player patterns and behaviors can happen immediately.

No. They cannot happen immediately, a change of behavior pattern is a gradual change in most cases. Those players that always did a lot for the community will continue to do so, and even do more if they have the time. The rest might need some jumpstarting in terms of encouragement and help.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Dorganath on August 20, 2012, 09:55:07 am
Quote from: Aphel
No. They cannot happen immediately, a change of behavior pattern is a gradual change in most cases. Those players that always did a lot for the community will continue to do so, and even do more if they have the time. The rest might need some jumpstarting in terms of encouragement and help.

I did say "can", implying the potential to do so.  Even with some lag in that, it's still usually quicker than waiting for a mechanical update.

The community can always change itself without assistance from developers or administrators. Whether it will or not depends greatly on the mindset of the individuals that make up the community.  My point in asking was to try and gauge this mindset and perhaps to get people to realize that the state of Layonara has as much to do with them as it does with the developers, GMs and admins.
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: jadewillow on August 20, 2012, 08:01:10 pm
This thread may be worn out, but another thing that would help keep existing pcs and attract new ones are some new classes. At the very least tweak the under powered ones like sacred fist and bear warrior
Title: Re: Community Building
Post by: Rowana on August 23, 2012, 01:57:16 am
The thread ran over by a lot and that's fine. Going to go ahead and lock it down now so that we can ruminate over some things. There will be a post of some kind later on down the line in response this. I think, however, there's been a great deal gleaned by players and GMs a like just from reading the thread. Thanks for your input folks.

~row