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Author Topic: Community Building  (Read 8750 times)

LordCove

Re: Community Building
« Reply #120 on: August 13, 2012, 03:26:53 am »
I'm hoping for a change to the xp system to allow quicker leveling to a certain point. Here is why, and please don't take any of this as a knock to the team or community or anything like that.

My play-time is very limited and unpredictable, but I have incredibly fond memories of Layo, so I dug  out an old Alt character I had and started logging him in.

Sadly, my experience wasn't great.
First, there was one character online who I sent a tell to, and then spent ten minutes running to his location, only to find he was an Orc ( I was a dwarf )
Then ensues some threatening RP and a PVP battle, which was all good, but after I had faced off against the evil orc .... I was all alone on the server.

Second time there were a few people online, so I sent a Tell, and got a reply they were busy doing quests. So I sat my butt on the Hlint benches waiting for them to finish.
Twenty minutes later a small group arrives, RP begins. One character was particulary abusive to my dwarf whilst others watched, and so RP turned to PVP ( or I could have walked away with my tail between my legs, but what dwarf does that? )
So after twenty minutes of waiting, ten minutes of talking and a PVP battle, I find I'm all alone again.

Had this been a fresh to person to Layo, then I bet that would have been the end of his trial run.
Altering the Group XP rate is going to be great news for people already here, and I do think it is a good idea, but it might not help so much the new people.
Even if they are lucky enough to log on and find a group, and if they are lucky enough to find the group is nearby and not already half-way down a dungeon, and even if they Dare ask a group of Epic strangers to wait ten minutes so a low level can run all the way to them, they still may have problems joining the group. For all they know, the group is a bunch of darkelves ( and your a dwarf) ... or your a Mistie and they're all Toranites.

My point is, if the early levels of Layo weren't so reliable on a group, I wouldn't have needed to sit around waiting for a group to join.
I could quite happily go wander off myself, knowing that it wont take 1000 grinds of the Red Light caves to get me a level higher and a little tougher and more capable, it would only take 10 grinds.
And if I knew I could level a little quicker, up to say level 10 or 15, I'd bet you a shiny nickle alot of other people would do the same.

And then suddenly I'm not soloing anymore... because everyone has the same idea as me, and so I'm bumping into adventurer's on the road again, finding them in the Goblin caves or out in the swamps.
And suddenly I'm in level-alike groups again.

Every time I look at Server Status, its populated by characters level 25+ .... always.
I bet even those Epic's might consider making a new character if they knew it wouldn't take a year to reach level 15. I know I certainly would.
 

mixafix

Re: Community Building
« Reply #121 on: August 13, 2012, 04:23:44 am »
I think the answer is in there somewhere, most of the posting revolving around getting the players to the same level to better interact one way or another - and seeking a quicker or easier path to that point.
 
 I think ideally a new start would make it much easier to alter the XP progression and anything else required. However given the problems and likely impossibility of that route tweaking a tweak seems more likely.
 
 Not sure if can be narrowed down to the lower levels or not as a few players have complained about getting stuck and lonely at various levels but I think getting by quicker at the beginning (anywhere up to level 15 it seems) is most likely to retain new people and is maybe the priority.
 
 However reposting this below as it fits with some of the above posts.
 
 Some thoughts based on some suggestions here and elsewhere

xp allowed for PC in party together over a wider range than currently offered must surely help but seems only a part solution in that the lower pcs cannot contribute much to what is a level based game - RP is good and well and may fit many situations but the ones mentioned suggest combat and there the lower levels just cannot thrive on passing the bandages long term. Even in GM games rolling their dice is almost a waste for the same reasons.

Encouraging multiple characters with an aim of a smaller level range during play is going to make it possible to find one PC to fit when you log on and find someone else on of a different level/belief etc.

So perhaps a wider solution rather than just an xp reward fix is appopriate.

Relax the rule of six PCs

Increase the rewards over a wider level range, as discussed

Allow CDQ or other method to provide a player with a radical level upgrade where desired. IE if it is about RP and player A does not have the time to get to level 30 and we cant change the XP route for the server, maybe we can allow players to get to level 30 or whatever with say one PC after a certain RL time in game, regardless of actual play. (if he/she can RP a lvl 10 in a good manner - why not a lvl whatever...

Hopefully this keeps people from turning to grind/leaving - when they realise their time will never permit progression etc and is another way of providing new areas to some players perhaps more usefully than having a big brother lead them around as a low lvl PC- in this scenario they would be able to hold their own and the chances of finding a firt for a group would increase.

I think after all this time where many changes are impracticable due to resourcing or mechanics and numbers are short so as to prevent or make very difficult normal progession I would like to think we dont need every player to fight for every xp.

Rewards for other activity could be stepped up (as was mooted elsewhere) or could contribute towards the right to take an acccelerated character to CDQ or whatever to gain a level boost. Indeed any number of constraints could be put in to safeguard such a system - but the idea is that players get the chance to have at least one pc boosted to operate at an area outside their expectations given their normal rate of play.

If you can live with that concept I think the result could only enhance the chances of a better fit of players at any given time and encourage any who give up play for this reason.

Clearly players would not have to go down this route, but opening up the chance would maybe improve retention/recruitment
 

Dorganath

Re: Community Building
« Reply #122 on: August 13, 2012, 09:48:58 am »
Much of what has been discussed and suggested above would take time to implement in some way or the other, whether it's a policy shift or changes to the modules in some way, shape or form.

Let me turn the question around and ask everyone who has responded a similar question but from a slightly different angle:

What can you, the players, do right now, without policy or module change, to start fostering the sort of connections everyone talks about as being among the best aspects of Layonara?

Along different lines, I direct this one specifically at people with well-established characters:

If some of the difficulties that plague lower levels (i.e. level 10 or below) in our reduced server population were lessened or eliminated, would you create a new character and not worry so much about how fast you have to get to Level X for whatever reason?  Similarly, would you consider coordinating with other established members (and potentially new ones) and create new characters as a group, not necessarily all affiliated (but it helps) so that the complaint of not enough people online to game with isn't an issue?

I'm curious about these things, because it won't matter how much we change if there's no buy-in from our players.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Community Building
« Reply #123 on: August 13, 2012, 10:08:46 am »
Quote from: Dorganath

If some of the difficulties that plague lower levels (i.e. level 10 or below) in our reduced server population were lessened or eliminated, would you create a new character and not worry so much about how fast you have to get to Level X for whatever reason?  Similarly, would you consider coordinating with other established members (and potentially new ones) and create new characters as a group, not necessarily all affiliated (but it helps) so that the complaint of not enough people online to game with isn't an issue?

I'm curious about these things, because it won't matter how much we change if there's no buy-in from our players.


From an old movie that I somewhat liked.

"If you build it they will come:

I say yes.

Link092

Re: Community Building
« Reply #124 on: August 13, 2012, 12:31:39 pm »
I think ya'll need to make some lvl 1 characters so I can have someone to play with. :U

LOL
 

Guardian 452

Re: Community Building
« Reply #125 on: August 13, 2012, 12:38:38 pm »
Quote from: Dorganath


What can you, the players, do right now, without policy or module change, to start fostering the sort of connections everyone talks about as being among the best aspects of Layonara?

Along different lines, I direct this one specifically at people with well-established characters:

If some of the difficulties that plague lower levels (i.e. level 10 or below) in our reduced server population were lessened or eliminated, would you create a new character and not worry so much about how fast you have to get to Level X for whatever reason?  Similarly, would you consider coordinating with other established members (and potentially new ones) and create new characters as a group, not necessarily all affiliated (but it helps) so that the complaint of not enough people online to game with isn't an issue?


Having less and more sporadic time to play than "back in the days" fostering those connections like I had back then with Rhizome, Plen and the rest of "The Red Caps" honestly isnt as likely. I would hope for some connections to be made. Every character that I have that has tried to go at it alone has had a far tougher time progressing than ones who made a connection.

I would definitely create a new character if changes were made that applied to lower level characters.... IF a change were also made to the 6 players per person rule. :) If not.... It is unlikely that I would create any new character(s)
 

willhoff

Re: Community Building
« Reply #126 on: August 13, 2012, 01:40:42 pm »
A few ideas on this:

1)  Start a mentoring program wereby established players can volunteer to be on a list to take one or more new players under their wing.  The new players can pick from the list based on their characters race, diety, class etc.  Once the new players char. reaches a certain level say level 10 the mentoring program ends allowing the established player to take on another new player.  During the mentoring process the mentor and apprentise can then feel free to set up in game times to interact, or pm eachother with questions and so on.

2)  As was said ealier, reduce the amount of xp needed to advance to level 12.

3)  Maybe tweak the level restrictions for certain items like weapons and armour.  If I recall correctly, it seemed that adamantium blade that I can finally weild would have been much more useful at earlier levels.  I also recall making a weapon or armour only to find I couldnt weild it because of the level restriction, which seemed strange.  This probably would be a huge undertaking for the team so not sure it its feasable.

I'll try to think of others....
 

Shiokara

Re: Community Building
« Reply #127 on: August 13, 2012, 02:20:40 pm »
Wanted to respond to Willhoff's #1 with respect to Dorg's post. Willhoff, this mentoring program could be your baby. You don't really need much DM support for it. All you'd need is a group of like-minded individuals and a forum thread or section (I recommend section).

One thread would be for a list of the members and player requests, which could be cleared out over time. You could even have specialists if certain of your members wanted to focus more on explaining mechanics versus roleplay or non-mechanic progression.

As far as DM support goes, you might not need more than a few references to your thread. Like add a line that says, "Now that you're approved, you could go get a mentor to be your Obi Wan in this land!" after character approval.
 

Dremora

Re: Community Building
« Reply #128 on: August 13, 2012, 03:30:03 pm »
I have several low level characters I don't play because low levels are boring. So I would'nt even need to create new characters, I could just play those. Besides as for buy-in from players, I don't create new characters simply because I feel they won't go anywhere before I get bored. Were this no longer the case, then ofcourse I would submit new chars depending on when I feel like RPing a different concept.
 

Dorganath

Re: Community Building
« Reply #129 on: August 13, 2012, 04:17:23 pm »
Quote from: Shiokara
Wanted to respond to Willhoff's #1 with respect to Dorg's post. Willhoff, this mentoring program could be your baby. You don't really need much DM support for it. All you'd need is a group of like-minded individuals and a forum thread or section (I recommend section).

One thread would be for a list of the members and player requests, which could be cleared out over time. You could even have specialists if certain of your members wanted to focus more on explaining mechanics versus roleplay or non-mechanic progression.

As far as DM support goes, you might not need more than a few references to your thread. Like add a line that says, "Now that you're approved, you could go get a mentor to be your Obi Wan in this land!" after character approval.

Absolutely correct.

There's a whole lot the community can do for the community without GM or admin intervention.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Community Building
« Reply #130 on: August 13, 2012, 05:02:46 pm »
If the XP kill is adjusted that is... otherwise its just an RP thing between a high level and the lowbie. Don't get me wrong RP is awesome... but again RP only goes so far to "advancing" a character.
 

Shiokara

Re: Community Building
« Reply #131 on: August 13, 2012, 05:56:11 pm »
Quote from: Guardian 452
If the XP kill is adjusted that is... otherwise its just an RP thing between a high level and the lowbie. Don't get me wrong RP is awesome... but again RP only goes so far to "advancing" a character.


This is not wholly true. Veterans can escort lowbie players even if they aren't grouped--nothing in Layonara is instanced. In fact, the lowbie has to drop party any time he needs to accept/complete quests anyway. Clerics/Sorcs/Bards/Rangers/Paladins/Druids/Wizards--heck any caster class has some buff that can help a lowbie solo those pesky sewer rats. This can all be RPed as training. Then, at a preset level, you could ask if that player wants to go through the rites to become a member of the escorts. This will serve as a community-based tutorial on guilds and will also increase the number of escorts and such.

It could also server as a tutorial for CDQs if the player wanted (wholly optional) to have CDQ support for joining the escorts.

I would suggest proposing this group as a charter, too, so there is some in-game lore for the escorts. Escorts should also agree on a symbol that marks them as such in-game that must be worn at all times. A certain standard to be held when not helping someone, or a certain pattern on a cloak.

The escort forum should also suggest good pairings based upon character classes. Finally, if an escort and player should not get along, then the escort has to be swapped out. And this should be documented via private tells or a request for change of escort thread.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Community Building
« Reply #132 on: August 13, 2012, 06:00:10 pm »
The whole ungrouped method to me at least wreaks of an exploit... a way to get around a system or rules. Ive had people offer to assist me in this manor already and I've declined. Maybe its just me who sees it this way.
 

Shiokara

Re: Community Building
« Reply #133 on: August 13, 2012, 06:05:02 pm »
Quote from: Guardian 452
The whole ungrouped method to me at least wreaks of an exploit... a way to get around a system or rules. Ive had people offer to assist me in this manor already and I've declined. Maybe its just me who sees it this way.


No doubt it's an exploit, but at this stage in the game, and since we're talking about new players and how to retain them, we might as well get everything we can out on the table.

Honestly, I'm not terribly concerned about upholding ethics related to the mechanics of NWN. The mechanics of NWN are outdated--if the workarounds help foster roleplay and retain players, I'll throw them out the window.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Community Building
« Reply #134 on: August 13, 2012, 06:22:35 pm »
Eh, I don't think it's an exploit, and here's why:

If you're not partied up, the XP isn't shared. This means that if the high level character kills the baddy for the low level character, the low level character gets 0 XP. This in fact encourages the low level characters to do the real work rather than having the high level character do the killing while the low levels hang back and soak XP, which would be the case if we tweaked party XP like is being discussed.

In essence, the low level character/party of low level characters are adventuring without the epic escort as far as XP goes, but are with the escort as far as knowledge and RP goes. And it even makes sense, that when the Epic steps in to save the bacon of the low levels when they get in over their heads, the low levels don't get any XP from the monsters that likely would have killed them.

Really, why didn't I think of this before? Sometimes it's the most simple answer.... I could have been doing this with low level groups already... **slaps forehead**
 

Dorganath

Re: Community Building
« Reply #135 on: August 13, 2012, 07:00:51 pm »
There is a way it could become an exploit, though that effect can be somewhat self-limiting for a few reasons.  What milty describes is accurate, however.
 

lonnarin

Re: Community Building
« Reply #136 on: August 13, 2012, 07:14:31 pm »
Prior to this server, I used to game on an ungrouped party system.  It didn't really change the manner of RP or ease of XP one way or the other, except it lowered the lag a little and made it harder to send tells to multiple people easily.  The XP system was a little wonky, when they kept the Bioware XP chart progression, but you could at most get 45xp/kill, and typically "good" areas would get you 10-12xp a kill.  It felt a little broken when the levels strayed too much and you'd suddenly get 1xp/kill.  Kind of was a downer really.

I don't mind our current system too much, save for the "speedbump" levels where the hurdle set rises sharply.  The lvl 9 and lvl 12 hurdle is the most notable I think.  I always remember getting frustrated with my characters and deleting them right about then for a new concept.  Finally I made much tougher characters with better hp/con scores, more fine-tuned class combo/skill selections and finally acended to the 20th level eschelon... after years and years.  Sat there at level 20 with most of them.  Kurn busted through on his own, while Farros and Bjorn only made it due to the free levels given during the Dragon Storm quest series.  That little boon was a real treat!  Maybe if we put up more series like that where its a long spanning sequence of events all interelated, and involvement was a flat out level?  What I like about those, is that characters usually stagnate and get deleted right around those speedbump levels.  Events like the Dragon Storm quest helped a whole slew get over their respective hurdles, and people gamed pretty hard in the subsequent weeks.

I think in terms of gameplay experience, some of those big level XP req jumps can be disheartening.  You get so far then suddenly you need to gain about all the XP you have gained so far to push you one more level.  And then that xp hikes and hikes.  It's kind of like doing Indian Runs in track.  You jog and its all nice and happy pace, then the line gets longer and longer as the guy in back has to sprint to the front.  You chuckle, but then suddenly its your turn in the back to sprint to the front, and man that hurts.  Keep jogging more and more and you still feel that sprint in your lungs.  And then you sprint really hard again, and again.  By the third lap, you want to reach up inside your lungs and rip them out, just collapes and let the rest of the track team keep jogging.  That's what those speedbump level sometimes feel like when you're playing normally, then you realize that you need to grind a level appropriate hunting area 100+ times or go on 10-20 quests to hit next level.  I would highly suggest normalizing the xp chart a bit to ease those transition levels.  

I do notice that we've relaxed the rules quite a bit on levels far apart grouping, and think we also made xp gains a bit more substantial when they are grouped than we had it years ago.  I think the minimum xp gained for any critter is at least its challenge rating?  I suggest double or quadruple the minimum xp gained.  and level 1 critter gains you at least 4 xp per one killed.  Every 10th level monster gains you 40.  20th level monsters get you at least 80... no matter what level.  That would bring more incentive to higher level players helping lower-mid level players, lower level players tagging along with higher level players, and Solo players to stick around in lower level areas which may be a bit safer and be able to feel progress when the server is empty.  Sometimes I just like to "mess around" and slay lots of lower level stuff instead of running out to Miritrix or the Deep.  Kind of like Drizz't vs. a Thousand Orcs.  They made a novel trilogy on an epic gaining a level after kill a thousand low level mobs! ;)

I would also like the cap raised for slots.  I would make a new level 1 immediately if it were allowed.  That is probably the easiest thing to do, just give a thumbs up and shout "let there be slots!"  No coding involved.  Of course, as to not beleager the character approval team, I would limit the number of submissions a player can make as a factor fo time.  Say you can get up to 4 starting out, but new characters submitted for after that are only approved 2 months after the last, regardless of whether you deleted a character or not. I don't like deleting characters, even if they are "stuck", it feels like getting a divorce or attending a funeral of a beloved family member.  If we had both a buffer to keep the CA team safe from a flood, and an incentive bonus to make new characters without deleting the ones we have nostalgic attachment to, that would be a decent compromise.  I think a time-dilation approval system rather than a flat cap with deletion and substitution would be manageable and encourage retention.

Housing: a policy of only one per PLAYER and regular 3-6 month sweeps.  I always cringe when an up and coming mid level can afford a house and can't have one because one player has more than 2 and I haven't seen them log in for years.  Kudos on the recent sweep, we need more of them.  I don't think a tax system is needed, but regular pusle-checking for activity would be key.  And not just logging in to save the house either, perhaps a 20 hour requirement of the actual owner over 3-6 months to keep the house active.  Only active players should be owning real estate.  This makes room for those actually playing with desire in their bellies.  This should hold true also for leaders of organizations to keep the rank and file active.

On soul strands, perhaps we can compromise and make the soul strand +5 feat gainable by 10th+ level and stackable one more time?  Don't do away with perma death entirely, but just give it a little nudge.  Those who prefer it as it is don't have to take the feats...
 

Dorganath

Re: Community Building
« Reply #137 on: August 13, 2012, 07:23:47 pm »
Quote from: lonnarin
Housing: a policy of only one per PLAYER and regular 3-6 month sweeps.  I always cringe when an up and coming mid level can afford a house and can't have one because one player has more than 2 and I haven't seen them log in for years.  Kudos on the recent sweep, we need more of them.  I don't think a tax system is needed, but regular pusle-checking for activity would be key.  And not just logging in to save the house either, perhaps a 20 hour requirement of the actual owner over 3-6 months to keep the house active.  Only active players should be owning real estate.  This makes room for those actually playing with desire in their bellies.

As of this post, there are 22 houses for sale across both servers. I still have more to release.

At this point, there's little reason to impose a per-player limit, but the per-character limit is staying (guild halls excepted).
 

Hellblazer

Re: Community Building
« Reply #138 on: August 13, 2012, 07:24:46 pm »
Quote from: Shiokara
This is not wholly true. Veterans can escort lowbie players even if they aren't grouped--nothing in Layonara is instanced. In fact, the lowbie has to drop party any time he needs to accept/complete quests anyway. Clerics/Sorcs/Bards/Rangers/Paladins/Druids/Wizards--heck any caster class has some buff that can help a lowbie solo those pesky sewer rats. This can all be RPed as training. Then, at a preset level, you could ask if that player wants to go through the rites to become a member of the escorts. This will serve as a community-based tutorial on guilds and will also increase the number of escorts and such.


There are many quests that can be completed as a party Ie talked to the npc and the quest is finished.

Guardian 452

Re: Community Building
« Reply #139 on: August 13, 2012, 07:47:52 pm »
Lonn I too regret sending several of my characters to the recycle bin. I am very much with you on just announcing a ding and having all of us who followed the spirit of the rules given another character slot. Those of you who exploited the system with using multiple NWN login to circumvent the rules in place you're outta luck on this one!
I love the idea of having a 2 month (maybe 3 month) gap from one submission to the next. I think that is a fantastic way to help ease the burden on CA's

Is it a server lag issue if we had 12 characters? What was the reason for the rule being set at 6?