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Author Topic: Computer Advice  (Read 1855 times)

Chongo

Computer Advice
« on: September 01, 2012, 10:27:04 pm »
Hey folks - I usually crop up every few years to leech some wisdom off those better with computer know-how.

This old alienware is ridiculously huge... the tower takes up way too much space and I'm trying to trim down the  office footprint.  I've been  looking at Sager notebooks (need a laptop), and was wondering how to best configure  things.  

Do people still use docks for monitors/ keyboards etc  or am I dating myself?  What's the best setup these days?  If docks  still are the best solution, I can't seem to find out if they need to be  fitted to specific laptop models.  I was toying with either getting the  17" or going the other direction fully with the 11" (both sager).  My  assumption is that the graphics card will dictate what resolution I can  set the attached monitor to, not the laptop size.  Correct?  Also, SSD  or traditional?

Any advice is appreciated, I barely know what I'm doing.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 10:44:54 pm »
Yes it's the graphic card that will dictate the resolution, in fact you could have one resolution set for the laptop screen and one for the secondary screen, that would be set in the NVIDIA control pannel, under display-> resolution. But be careful, all screens have their range of resolution they can work with, and all of them have a native resolution that they work better with you need to check the specks of both so you don't push the resolution out of the working range of the screen. I use a wireless keyboard/mouse combo on our company's laptop because I hate touch pads. Plus it enables me to leave the laptop in a corner while having our desk free but the screen (keyboard and mouse are on a keyboard tray under the desk).

So quite frankly if you're planning on using an other screen but the laptop one I wouldn't bother with a 17 inch unless of course you will (which is most likely the case) use it on the go, then the bigger screen is always nice.

Checking the laptops of sager, I would truly suggest you take at least an i7-3820QM. Yes it's more expensive, but it's a quad core with hyper-threading. I would personally find it horrendous to go back to a dual core, but that's up to your preference in the end. They generally seems to have some good specs, but I would suggest you wipe the HDD/SSD clean and install a new without all the junk that will probably be shipped with.

HDD are fine, but noisier and usually hotter than SSD. SSD have greater read random speed but still lacks on continuous writing/reading of large files. Although they have made good strides with the life time of the SSD's now. It will make your system a lot more snappier that's for sure. So I'd say for a laptop, it's a must. And I don't know what you do with it, but if it's anything to do with video/audio, get a second drive. Having your work files on the same disk as the os disk can cause problems.

Hope that helps.

RollinsCat

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 10:48:43 pm »
If you like keyboard/mouse (I do because of bad eyes and big hands) - go with the docking station, otherwise you'll need a port replicator for the peripherals to avoid having to attach/unattach them.  Docking stations are configured to a particular brand/type of laptop although Kensington makes a universal docking station.  Not familiar with the Segar brand though, so no help there.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 10:50:44 pm »
Quote from: RollinsCat
If you like keyboard/mouse (I do because of bad eyes and big hands) - go with the docking station, otherwise you'll need a port replicator for the peripherals to avoid having to attach/unattach them.  Docking stations are configured to a particular brand/type of laptop although Kensington makes a universal docking station.  Not familiar with the Segar brand though, so no help there.


If he plugs them through usb, he shouldn't have any problems at all to use them without a replicator. On the go though the Dock station is obviously better, but for at home, not needed.

Chongo

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 11:26:29 pm »
Quote from: Hellblazer
Checking the laptops of sager, I would truly suggest you take at least an i7-3820QM. Yes it's more expensive, but it's a quad core with hyper-threading.

[TABLE=head;sort=1a,2,3]3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3610QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.30GHz)   [+$70.00]   |
                   3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3720QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.60GHz)   [+$230.00]   |
                   3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3820QM Processor ( 8MB L3 Cache, 2.70GHz)   [+$420.00] |
[/TABLE]
Big price difference, how much of a performance change?

Quote from: Hellblazer
And I don't know what you do with it, but if it's anything to do with video/audio, get a second drive. Having your work files on the same disk as the os disk can cause problems.

Hope that helps.

I'll be playing games on a limited basis... maybe a couple of hours per week - but it'd be nice to have a machine that can play the new ones.  For comparison, Skyrim is too much for my current machine.  I'll also be doing work stuff, nothing crazy - a fair bit of work in adobe cs5.

But I had a question about having 2 drives.  How does it work?  Why would I want it?  It does bring up an interesting point that I would love to have my work stuff segregated from games as it's not the coolest in my line of work to open it up at a meeting and have mass effect 3 as the primary start menu button.  But can't you just do that by adding a partition?
 

Hellblazer

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 01:41:42 am »
Quote from: Chongo
[TABLE=head;sort=1a,2,3]3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3610QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.30GHz)   [+$70.00]   |
                   3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3720QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.60GHz)   [+$230.00]   |
                   3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3820QM Processor ( 8MB L3 Cache, 2.70GHz)   [+$420.00] |
[/TABLE]
Big price difference, how much of a performance change?

I'll be playing games on a limited basis... maybe a couple of hours per week - but it'd be nice to have a machine that can play the new ones.  For comparison, Skyrim is too much for my current machine.  I'll also be doing work stuff, nothing crazy - a fair bit of work in adobe cs5.


You double the processing power of the laptop by going quad instead of dual, it's a significant processing power bump for any cpu intensive application. Games for instance do benefit from having a more powerful CPU's, video/audio DAW's also even. Many games and work programs are being written to take full advantages of multi-cores and hyper-threading, taking full advantage of the power of the cpu's.

Quote from: Chongo

But I had a question about having 2 drives.  How does it work?  Why would I want it?  It does bring up an interesting point that I would love to have my work stuff segregated from games as it's not the coolest in my line of work to open it up at a meeting and have mass effect 3 as the primary start menu button.  But can't you just do that by adding a partition?


Basically for dual Hard drive is that the programs will be installed on your system drives which is where the OS is. Then the data that you have is saved on the secondary drive. If you work with big files, that means that the data can be access faster since it doesn't have to wait for the system drive to finish the current task that it is doing to go and seek the information.

For example let's say that you are editing a movie, the video editor programs needs to access the file on a near constant basis to load it into ram to work then save what's been work on to the drive. If it has to compete with what ever else is using the drive where the data is, any process that is accessing the system drive will slow down the process. When you have two drive, where the programs are on one drive and the data on the other, it enables the OS to access both drives at the same time. So while you are accessing constantly and uninterrupted your saved data, the other processes that are running on your computer in the back ground, can access the system drive without slowing down the data transfer that is being worked on. For video and Audio work that is especially crucial as we are often accessing huge amount of data at once and if other processes are trying to run at the same time it causes conflicts that can lead even to errors in the work/data.  

The data that is on the second drive will still be shown, so for example if you install a game on the second drive, it will still show in the menu. The only way to prevent this is to simply erase the shortcut from your start menu/desktop, have more than one account and only install programs based by the accounts you have, or run a dual boot session. You can partition your system drive in two and install the same OS twice on it. Once on each partition. Then using easybcd, you can edit the boot menu so it shows when you start the computer and you can then select which session you want. This way you can have one OS that is strictly for work, no games installed, no superfluous drivers installed, just the programs you need to work, keeping it clean sleek and error free. And on the other OS you can have all your games, movies etc. One OS "entity" will not affect the other, and what you install on one, will not show on the other.

In the Audio world, which is my work field, it's not uncommon to see one drive for the system and programs, a second or more drive for the Audio data, and even more drives just for the sound libraries that one might have. In my case I got 1 drive for my work OS. a second drive for my gaming and regular thing OS, where all my games are installed on. 1 drive for my Audio data (all the audio files of the songs I've recorded) and two drives just for my sound libraries (sound samples of instruments that I can use in my DAW). If for example, in a one DAW session I'm working on, I have 100+ audio tracks (which can happen fairly often), and a couple of Virtual instruments running, all is able to be accessed at the same time without slow down, due to each thing being on different drives. If I only had one drive, and the OS was doing something, my DAW was accessing the audio continuously and at the same time accessing the sound libraries, you could be sure that at one point I would be getting errors that "the data can't be read fast enough from the hard drive", and would stop what ever I was doing. Major pain in the butt, and when you got a client beside you, it's truly not something you want to be happening. Same thing can happen in the Video editing world. FOr art works with photoshop and such, it's not really a problem since the amount of data isn't that big in the first place.

MadHattan

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 11:18:22 am »
Congo,
 
1) SSD is a big deal.   I have it on my latest laptop and LOVE IT!  Never have to defrag again!  It is worth the money if you have it.
 
2) RAM: My laptop rule..  always max out RAM.  RAM typically is the biggest performance boost for the $$.

3) Remember laptops slow down to conserve power when on battery power.  Always play plugged-in if you can.

4) Resolution of your second monitor is a function of the RAM size of the videocard.  More video card RAM = more addressable pixels.  So when you know you are running a second monitor, I typically suggest get the best video card option with the most ram offered.
 
5) There are new external video connections to look for, the one I am telling folks to get is DisplayPort.  It carries a very nice digital video signal and digital audio over the same cable.  Most newer models of computer monitors have DisplayPort but TV's are still catching up.  Something to look for anyway.
 
-Madd
 

Xiaobeibi

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 02:58:18 pm »
From my experience at work (I do a lot of work with spreadsheets - sad but true!) I would make a dockingstation a priority.

For me a dockingstation means you can setup a proper workspace where you can adjust the table, keyboard, mouse and screen to suit your needs. If/when you need to go out and make a presentation you just bring the laptop, but everything else stays in place. But this is from the perspective of one whose work would be a pain on a small laptop screen.

It also means I can use a smaller laptop.
 

Frendh

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2012, 10:54:21 am »
If I was buying a gaming laptop I would buy one with a good ivy bridge i7 and no graphics card. Then you buy an external graphics card that you can hook up to the laptop when you are at home. With a "real" graphics card(go Nvidia) the gaming performance will be significantly increased and the laptop will have a lot less internal heat factors to deal with in addition to being lighter in weight.

RAM is cheap so do not worry about it if a laptop which otherwise have great hardware for the price. 8GB is plenty. Do not get less than 4GB. Also, consider saving the Operation System key then formatting the harddrive to get rid of all the junkware that comes preinstalled. With the people I have spoken with it has always given a performance boost, more important on lowend laptops though.

I am still delaying the SSD purchase because the speed bump is not that important, pretty much only improves load times. Does not affect what games/apps you can play/run. A game like Team Fotress 2 for instance takes up 10 GB of space on your harddrive. You should have 40 GB of space for your  Windows 7 OS partition. I know 20GB is too little. If the choice is between 1 SSD and 1 harddrive, definitly go with 1 harddrive.

Also, avoid the 3820QM. I know the desktop version is overpriced. The only good thing in comparison is that 3820 is on socket 2011 which gives quad channel for RAM on desktops.  Socket 1155 has dual channel.  Not sure how that works on the laptop motherboards.

Dell has really bad support in scandinavia. A lot of angry dell consumers here.

About the work vs private software layout. Create a work login and a home login and when you install games only install them on the home login.

I am not sure what you mean with dual drives. There are different setups. The older ones are RAID setups. One type of raid is when you run two harddrives or 2 SSDs in parallell. Almost twice the speed but poor reliability. A different raid for dual drives is mirroring. One is used for backup. Then there are the SSD/harddrive combos where the controller card decides what data is going to be put on what drive. The data that is being read a lot is supposedly put on the SSD and data that is often deleted or rarely used is put on the harddrive.  Or another setup could simply be an SSD and and a harddrive working separately, which I prefer.
 

Chongo

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 01:43:40 pm »
Thanks for the advice everyone.  Currently looking at this for just under $1400:

[table=head;sort=1a,2,3]Display|                                 17.3" Full HD LED-Backlit Display with Super Glossy Surface (1920 x 1080)|
Video & Graphics Card|                                 Nvidia GeForce GTX 660M GPU with 2GB GDDR5 Video Memory|
CPU Processor|                                 3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3610QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.30GHz) [$70.00]|
Thermal Compound|                                 IC Diamond Thermal Compound - CPU + GPU [$35.00]|
Operating System|                                 Genuine MS Windows® 7 Professional 32/64-Bit Edition ( 64-Bit Preloaded ) [$60.00]|
Memory|                                 12GB DDR3 SDRAM at 1600MHz - 3 X 4GB [$40.00]|
RAID Storage Options |                                 Non-RAID Storage|
Primary Hard Disk Drive|                                 120GB Intel 520 Series SATA3 Solid State Disk Drive [$100.00]|
Optical Drive Bay — Optical Drive or Hard Disk Drive in Optical Drive Bay with Caddy case|                                 8X DVD±R/RW/4X +DL Super-Multi Drive & Software|
Wireless Network Card|                                 Intel Centrino Ultimate-N 6300 - 802.11A/B/G/N Wireless LAN Module [$35.00]|
Primary Battery|                                 Smart Li-ION Battery Pack|
Microsoft Office|                                 Microsoft Office Starter 2010 - Included in Price|
Warranty|                                 Sager 1 Year Limited Parts and Labor Warranty|
[/table]


It would cost an additional $160 for an i7-3720QM.

It would cost an additional $90 for 16GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1600MHz - 2 X 8GB.

SSD looks to be $60 jumps for 180GB and 240GB.  Looking at my current computer that I've had for... 6 years I think, I don't think spce is much of an issue and I use external drives for 'legacy waste' so to speak.

Thoughts?  See any gaps?
 

Xaltotun

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 04:08:14 pm »
one missing component to my first scan is a large 1TB or higher hard drive to hold all the files etc. The SSD should be set up to boot from and manage the OS, but everything (mostly) should be on the second HDD.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 08:30:46 pm »
With 120 gb you should have enough for your games and programs on the ssd (games will load a hell lot faster) But all your music, files, movies etc could be set on a regular HDD.

Chongo

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 01:40:28 am »
Thanks for the responses!

I suppose my real question is why I need an HDD with 1TB when after 6+ years my current computer is at 180GB... and bloated with 100 duplicates of nwn1 and nwn2 worlds that I should've erased 5 years ago.

Is it merely a space thing or will it affect performance if I don't have it all separated?

Any thoughts on the processor/ ram bang for buck as I laid it out in additional costs?
 

Frendh

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 12:20:25 pm »
Okay, I am not from around your place but I have to say it looks pretty expensive. And scandinavia is generally more expensive than anywhere else.

For starters where are you buying? For the ram I would just buy minimum. Chuck it. Then go to random decent place and buy 2x8GB corsairs. If you are american then newegg is a good place to start, or so I hear. Here is the first hit I got concerning RAM, did not look for cheapest store or anything.
Amazon.com: Corsair 8 GB Module (1x8GB) DDR3 1333MHz PC3 10666 204-Pin Unbuffered C9 Laptop Memory CMSO8GX3M1A1333C9: Computers & Accessories
Also, 500GB harddrive should be fine for you. But going with only the SSD is not very future proofed. Again, you should have 40GB for windows 7. It will probably eat away 25GB right away.

Did you do any research on the thermal compound? If not, skip it. Few pastes are better than ~4 degrees celsius cooler than vanilla paste.
Last I checked the best thermal compounds were in the $10-$15 USD price range. $35 just seems way too overpriced.
 

Xaltotun

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2012, 12:34:14 pm »
As Frendh says, it looks expensive, but that aside, get a large HDD - you may not have filled it up in the past, but you can't lose with a lot of space to store things.

It won't affect performance if you don't have one, but you will swallow up 120GB without even thinking about it, hence my suggestion for a larger non-SSD drive.

The query about processor is good too; personally, the i7s are expensive, so check out the better i5s which will deliver almost the same performance but for much less money. PCPro magazine, Oct 2012 recommends the i5-3570K which gives a "combination of stellar performance and reasonable price". You would of course need to check motherboards and bridges for compatability.

Hope this helps
 

Frendh

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 01:18:27 pm »
i5-3570K is a desktop CPU though. A laptop cannot handle the power consumption.
 

Chongo

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 05:52:22 pm »
Thanks guys.

I live in the US, I was pricing it out straight off the Sager site.  I heard they were good laptops without much excess bloat software, but I'm not married to the idea.  So if you think of a good place to shop, I'd love to hear it.  I do not want to go through a dell equivalent because it ends up having a lot of junk I don't want.

On the RAM, I wouldn't have the first idea on how to install something new.  How easy is it?

On the processor, a i5-3210M would be $70 cheaper but I'd be losing the quad.

Is it easy to set things up to have the OS run off a separate SSD?  I'm new to this.
 

lonnarin

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 08:06:39 pm »
Basically the SSD drive would be your main C: drive that you install the OS onto, and the larger SATA drive with the higher capacity would be a secondary drive.  You keep the meat and potatos of your heaviest used programs to install on the SSD, since it's way way faster, and movies, music, lesser used programs and the like you put on the other one.  The performance is increased a whole lot, since the seek time of the SSD is lightning fast.

The biggest improvement you will see with an SSD drive as your main drive is LOAD SCREENS.  Once you start playing most games and programs, it's smooth running since they're dancing around in your RAM witht he most relevant data, but when you start up things for the first time, your computer is scrambling to check the HD for this and that and something or other.  SATA drived computers take minutes to load up from the off position, while SSD drived ones can take just seconds.  It's like the difference between a computer as we know it, and a kitchen appliance.  You turn your blender on and it's on.  You start up a SATA computer and it's like warming up an old car on a frosty day with bad antifreeze.  Sitting there sputtering and scrambling and warming up to the thought of letting you start some programs.  Area/stage transition points whizz by faster, GFX stuttering is improved a bit because those big clunky GFX texture packs can load up quicker.  If you ever have a party member who takes forever to get through transitions while others seem to snap their fingers and shoot on to the other side, sometimes it's not their lag, it's their hard drive sputtering to catch up to access all those texture packs.  Gothic 3's legendary long long load screens are only moderately bad on an SSD.  Maybe 15-20 seconds.  On a SATA, it's like a 3-5 minute break to go for a bio break every time you load up from death.

Another good thing about SSD is less moving parts, which can make laptops a bit more resiliant to HD failure due to shaking or jostling.  Most mobile devices use SSD or flash memory these days, otherwise their failure rates on a standard drive would be horrific.  Energy efficiency is another boon.  Every time a SATA drive is whirling and spinning to access those big files your computer uses most, it's expending energy to move the components about and adding wear and tear to the little swirly disks inside.  Flash and SSD storage doesn't need to work as hard to transfer data.  SATA drives are still a lot less expensive and higher capacity, dollar to dollar, so having a small SSD for the maind OS with a moderate SATA as a secondary drive is the best of both worlds.  Some SSD-only systems are way epensive or have tiny little 64, 128 or 256GB HDs, while 500gb-1TB SATA PCs are fairly inexpensive.  If you go all-SATA or only 64GB SSD, shoot for at least a 7200RPM speed on the SATA.  128-256GB on the SSD side, you can fit your OS and a lot of programs on that, so you can go maybe 500gb SATA or a good 750GB at 5400.  256-512GB SSD, and you probably can just get an external drive for backup storage.  For all those backup worlds and files you mentioned, I'd probably just stick them on an external backup drive and only put them on the main HD when you're actively hosting/working on them.  Your lesser played or older games can go on a SATA, while the big ones you use every day, put them on the SSD, especially if it's graphics design, music composition, film editing, compiling lots of code or advanced statistical analysis.  It's the difference between waiting a few minutes or a few hours to process sometimes.

I would stick with the quad core, since it can split up background tasks much more efficiently than a dual core.  Since windows tends to hog up tons of resources in in the background even in optimal settings, this can help boost the speed of your primary programs in the foreground significantly.  Worth the $70 if you want high end gaming. 6-8GB is good, I find 12-16GB to be excessive most of the time.  Unless you're hosting servers from the device.  I would start with 8GB now, and make sure the motherboard can support up to 16GB down the road, then upgrade later when the price drops and programs start really using that extra RAM.  Right now most laptops go 4-6GB RAM, and they handle games fine.  8 would be awesome.  12-16 you don't really notice most of the time, unless you do LOTS of multitasking.

The bloatware is problematic and invasive in many brands.  Every little virus scanner, performance booster, plug-in, trialware and toolbar thinks it's the most important program in the entire world and wants to eat up your resources.  The end result is the Three Stooges Effect in which Moe, Larry and Curly get stuck in a door trying all three to enter it at once.  I almost always wipe every new PC I buy and install just the Operating System.  Dell is bad, HP is one of the worst, but as soon as you get past that, most systems are pretty much the same.  ASUS has a good reputation for solid hardware, Dell & HP have their ups and downs, Sony, Toshiba and any computer that shares a brand name with a TV set is pretty midrange, then is Lenova.  Lenova's not that bad mechanically, but their customer service is some of the worst in the world unless you're a business.  Bottom of the pile is Acer.  Do not EVER buy Acer for anything more than a cheap 200-dollar netbook.  They have nice specs and prices, but their quality control and failure rate is just horrid, and their tech support, return policies and customer service is reserved for the 13th level of the pits.
 

Frendh

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 05:32:10 am »
Yeah, 8GB of RAM is plenty. Unless you have something you know is really RAM intensive, then getting 8GB is the way to go. I would have gone with a single 1x8GB RAM stick. 2x8GB is potentially faster when the need for RAM is less than 4GB, because of the dual channel. 1x8GB is more upgrade friendly.
 

Chongo

Re: Computer Advice
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2012, 04:00:10 pm »
Look good? 1400 USD


[table=head;sort=1a,2,3]Display|                                 17.3" Full HD LED-Backlit Display with Super Glossy Surface (1920 x 1080)|
Video & Graphics Card|                                 Nvidia GeForce GTX 660M GPU with 2GB GDDR5 Video Memory|
CPU Processor|                                 3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3610QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.30GHz) [$70.00]|
Thermal Compound|                                 Stock Standard Thermal Compound|
Operating System|                                 Genuine MS Windows® 7 Professional 32/64-Bit Edition ( 64-Bit Preloaded ) [$60.00]|
Memory|                                 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1600MHz - 2 X 4GB|
RAID Storage Options |                                 Non-RAID Storage|
Primary Hard Disk Drive|                                 180GB Intel 520 Series SATA3 Solid State Disk Drive [$155.00]|
2nd Hard Disk Drive|                                 500GB 7200rpm SATA2 Secondary Hard Disk Drive [$80.00]|
Optical Drive Bay — Optical Drive or Hard Disk Drive in Optical Drive Bay with Caddy case|                                 8X DVD±R/RW/4X +DL Super-Multi Drive & Software|
Wireless Network Card|                                 Killer™ Wireless-N 1103 - 802.11A/B/G/N Wireless LAN Module [$60.00]|
Primary Battery|                                 Smart Li-ION Battery Pack|
Microsoft Office|                                 Microsoft Office Starter 2010 - Included in Price|
Warranty|                                 Sager 1 Year Limited Parts and Labor Warranty|
[/table]