Confessions of an RPer

[Dorganath]

There is such a chance.  GMs have used the WL XP reward item more than anyone.

[LynnJuniper]

Not a flame or anything, but we just need more roaming GMs. People would try and RP better if there was always a chance of getting a random XP drop.

See this gets into a sticky area for me. I don't RP for XP I RP for fun. In fact, I don't like being hit with the XP wand for doing something I'd do weather there was a reward or not...I'm sure others feel this way. Or perhaps Im missing the idea?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

This is for a sidebar in the discussion, revolving around the idea of Level-A-Month.

It's been suggested that the LaM thing be togglable at major levels... And that, of course, one wouldn't get any XP for killing things. One would get XP for DM quests, though, and for spontaneous RP XP handed out by DMs and WLs...

So. It occurred to me.

At level one, you get an item that you "Use", that sets whether or not you are going to progress via Adventuring or via LaM through a conversation. After that, you don't get another until level five, then ten, then fifteen, then twenty, and so on and so forth. (Though it could just be for blocks of ten levels, or whatever.) If you set that you'll get XP via Adventuring, it works just like it does, now. If you set that you'll get XP via LaM, then you keep the item (which affects XP as described below), but you're not allowed to A) enter the world or B) actually progress to the next level until you've gone through the convo. (Edit: Also, to prevent abuse, i.e. going Adventuring then selecting LaM late to accrue more XP, the convo would auto-set the character's XP to the start of whatever level, plus however much over the very last XP gain was.)

Let's assume you set LaM. Okay, so you don't get any XP from kills. Sure. But can't people still make loads of XP from crafting? Well... At lower crafting levels, sure! And in certain crafts, like Enchanting. So... How about eliminating getting Adventuring XP from crafting with LaM? XP would still accrue for the craft, but not as an Adventurer. Or, perhaps simply reduce it so that the character receives half the XP they would otherwise get from crafting. They would still receive XP normally from quests and WL/DM XP.

When their month was up, they're awarded the amount of XP that it would take them to progress from the start of their current level to the start of their next level. This could also, perhaps, be automated.

Now, let's take Eric the Generic Cleric. He chooses LaM at level one and spends a portion of every day making potions. Before a month has passed, Eric is level two in adventuring, just from Enchanting! But at the end of his first month, Eric still only gets enough XP to take him from level one to level two (I believe 2k XP). Six months later, Eric is level nine, as he's attended a few quests and stayed on the LaM track, not to mention continued in his Enchanting.

Let's compare this to Cronk, the Half-orc Monk. Now, Cronk chooses Adventuring at level one, and goes all the way with that. He earns XP just like everyone does, now, and stays just as active as Eric. But, depending on his activity, he could also be between levels 6 and 9.

The crux of this system is the assumption that the average career Adventurer makes enough XP in each calendar month to earn one character level.

----

EDIT, RE: Jess.

Myself, I love getting off-the-cuff XP. It's not that I'm looking for a reward when I'm RPing (other than the RP itself), it's that I enjoy the recognition. Honestly, I'd be just as fine getting 100 XP for a few minutes of solid in-character RP as 10,000 (though I'd always prefer 10k. Always. ). It's the recognition that matters.

[Eight-Bit]

Not a flame or anything, but we just need more roaming GMs. People would try and RP better if there was always a chance of getting a random XP drop.

I think there's almost 30 GMs on the team. It could be less. I can't remember. When I am on as a GM it's because I have nothing in my life at that moment keeping me occupied. My real life is what comes first and, if you ask me, should come first for everyone else. It's unhealthy not to think like that.

So while I do give out Xp for roleplaying, I won't do it all day. I wish it could be easier to get Xp through roleplaying. I feel it just the same as everyone else. I like to think I roleplay well and it is rare that a GM is able to be around to see it. GMs roam on their free time and asking us to be logged in for just that purpose doesn't seem right. Granted, we're here for the players, but we've got a lot of stuff to take care of before we can be.

[Chongo]

A few comments are degenerating into the overused 'faster then my pace = bad' sentiment, and while PnP's post did have a handful of classic emotions in this direction... I really don't think it's where he intends for this to go.  So do his thread some justice, and let's not walk the self-substantiation road of smacking a blue ribbon and gold sticker on everyone suffering from slow levelling.  It's a proven brick wall that just breeds negativity and finger pointing.

And right now, more then anything else, Layo needs positive vibes and positive action.  There are a lot of changes going on, and changes breed discomfort, no matter how excited you may be.

hmm... I just erased most of this because I don't think people want to read about psychology and positive instant consequence and video games.

So hopefully something more brief sums it up.  It's never going to be easy to gain momentum on non-spontaneous aspects of this game.  In particular scheduled events dealing with roleplay benefits, or un-schedule-able gatherings for roleplay since it's typically not something you can plan for.  And you're always going to have to make a HUGE sell no matter how excellent the market your selling to may be.  It's just not programmed in most people to look for these things.  And we all inherently take the easy track (as this is recreation):  log on and just play.

If a scripter comes up with a magnificent roleplay reward system, that's great.  But it has no unit of measurement and I think what folks will ultimately lament is that bringing measurement into roleplay will steal the ideal source of motivation for it.  Keep it natural for better and worse and it'll always count for something greater then pixels, numbers, and equations.

So that leaves you in your negativity pickel.  Why am I not rewarded, and why isn't there a loaded train for me to board for roleplay central?

And the answer, that I believe with some experience on most ends of this.... is that it's always going to take positive thinkers and motivated individuals to make the big sells.  To gather momentum for an event or a series of events.  And it's never going to be easy, and it's always going to be at their personal cost.  The cost of time, the cost of having to sell motivation for something that's not instantly rewarded.  The cost of having to 'market' an event that you know will do wondrous things for the community if you can just get them to latch onto it.

Never going to be easy.  And it's always going to burn out some people who get too discouraged by the lack of response.  Because it never ends and it's always going to come down on 'Mr. Positive of the Week' to keep things rolling.  Roleplayers come and go, GMs come and go... they just can't deal with having to market roleplay.  But hey bub, it's the way it is and you can't attach a value that people will instantly respond to with something so intangible.

It has always taken work, and always will.  And that's where the pride comes from.  Everybody takes their turn in keeping the atmosphere afloat and we survive as a roleplay server because of those doses of individual motivation.




*edit* This post is almost entirely geared towards the action vs. roleplay issues PnP brings up.  I have nothing to say regarding level per xx duration and would be hard pressed to care less.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I'm not sure people are understanding the ramifications of my previous post. The system that exists (XP, levels, classes, etc.) measures adventuring, not roleplaying. It cannot, and never will, be a measure of RP. I'll go even so far as to say it shouldn't be a measure of RP. Leaning on what Chongo laid out in his above post, trying to create an objective system to measure RP will ultimately be more limiting than useful.

Still, we try and fit DnD's (NWN's) adventuring system to RP, and obviously with various degrees of success and failure. Look at the quest system. It supposedly compensates characters for RP. But, as has been pointed out, characters are more or less involved in a quest depending on quest content and the character itself, yet the reward is the same across the board. In other words, Character A, lvl 10, is heavily involved in Quest X, while Character B, also lvl 10, is only mildly involved (for whatever reason, perhaps the nature of the quest doesn't require his immediate expertise), yet they both get the same XP reward at the end. How does this reward RP? I would argue it doesn't, nor does it need to. I would argue, instead, (even if this isn't the intent behind the creation of the quest system) that quest XP is compensation for the XP you could have gotten adventuring in the time it took to run the quest. It's sort of a big "thank you card" for spending your time fulfilling the GM's story as well as your own.

Again, where does this leave us? Simply put, the rewards for RP can never truly be XP, as leveling up, class abilities, etc, really have nothing to do with RP advancement, and everything to do with a character's advancement in their career of adventuring. XP rewards are nice, don't get me wrong, but they're fundamentally out of sync with the rewards of RP. XP is meant to, was designed to award excellent adventuring, not roleplaying. And by the same token, levels (as they are represented in the DnD sense) do not show a character's advancement in RP. It shows their advancement as adventurers. Handing out free levels is therefore a problem in that you will ultimately be rewarding characters with adventuring status, even if they haven't earned that status through actually adventuring. In essence, you're trying to use levels to represent a character's RP experience, and what I'm trying to point out is that doing so is fundamentally wrong. Not wrong in a moral sense, but wrong in the sense that, well, in that it doesn't make sense. Levels weren't meant to measure RP experience, and in essence, can't.

So, your ability to RP is not necessary to your ability to adventure, and vice-versa. Each develop at their own pace. They will have some influence on each other, but I doubt there's any true causal relationship.

This is a key thing to understand, and should help you realize that the greatest reward for RP you're ever going to get is someone else coming up to you and saying, "Thanks. I had a great time, and playing with you has been awesome. Rock on." It won't be, and can't be XP.

[Polak76]

How about this idea folks- 'Lets leave it alone!'

I've been on for three years or more now and in all that time we've had these discussion over and over.  At the end of the day a few people leave while a heap of people joined.  To me that sounds like this place does things right.

Secondly I'm not keen on working out ways to get people more xp faster.  I don't want to see every second person running around epic.  You've got to earn epic the long and arduous way, therefore it's more rewarding in the end.  I promise the minute we speed leveling in any manner we're going to get more people leaving.

Lastly with regards to the RP value, I'm with Lynjuniper here.  You're supposed to RP for fun, not cause you want XP.  If you get a bonus once every blue moon thats enough to say 'well done mate!'.

[Pen N Popper]

Just so I'm clear, I really, really, really don't have an issue with players that have the skills to get to 20th level in four months.  If I could, I would too.  I lament the fact that I have to adventure in too great a proportion of the time.  If I could gain 40k XP in a couple hours, I'd do that and then spend the rest of my copious playtime RPing.  Unfortunately, I don't have that skill set so I look for other ways to increase my RP enjoyment.

My "level a month" idea would benefit a good number of people, but it would still take fifteen months to get to level 20, not four.  If you can get there faster than that, good for you.  Seriously.  This idea is not to make more epics but instead to encourage more variety in playing styles.

My other ideas are more along the lines of, "Alright I'm not going to level any faster but perhaps there's some RP hierarchy we can form."  It's the alternate career track.  As someone said on IRC, "You don't need to be 20th level to be a general."  While that is perhaps true, you do need an army.  I have tried several times to get organisations going and not been successful in building a lasting environment.

And yes, I probably should just drop it.  Is this discussion harmful to the community at all?  I hope not, as that's certainly not my intention.  It's the exact opposite:  I want to find a way to keep the players that have a baby and still want to play a few hours a week and still advance.  I want to find a way to keep the players that get a new job and still want to invest their time and RP here with us.  I want to find a way so that in a year there are not more epic adventurers, but epic PCs in roles they want.

See you ingame.

[MJZ]

Pen, I have to say I agree with you completely. Many, many players have a limited amount of time they can devote to Layonara, and I am certain they would much rather spend this time roleplaying, than bashing monsters. Even those that have a lot of time to devote to playing - I know many of them would rather be busy at roleplay.

While GM events can be great, they don't give anywhere near the XP you would have attained from spending the same amount of time bashing. Not that I am saying quests should be all about XP! I'm simply stating that they can often be more about the RP, again, and this does not aid level progression - which is needed and necessary for even being able to visit some of the most fascinating places on Layo (or so I'm told!).

I think a level-a-month system would be a loverly benefit, just as you say. And I don't think it would be an imbalancing action, as you say, some people out there find their way to epic levels in far, far shorter a time.

One stipulation I see is that this would have to apply to only reasonably active players. Otherwise someone could be absent for a long time and ..poof!

And I guess it's assumed there would be a cap on this? Since you need a special quest to attain level 21, the free levels would end before then.

[Kindo]

If everyone was given a free level per month, it would not make progression faster, but simply allow players who want to role-play to be able to do just that pretty much 100% of the time, rather than having to go out killing monsters in order to make their character become stronger. You could still progress faster if you went out hunting, so the decision is pretty much up to everyone to make themselves. A system like this would definitely benefit those who have other real-life duties to take care of, and who do not have those 6-8 hours per day to spend on monster-hunting.

[MJZ]

I also think it's fair to mention that while power-builds are meant to be discouraged, I think there are lots and lots of them out there. And when you try to make your character a little more RP-based, give some skill points, a feat or two, and some stat allocation into the RP elements of your character, what ends up happening is you just limit your "usefulness" to bashing parties. At least, this has been my experience. When this happens, bashing parties would rather fill your slot with someone more "useful" - obviously so, because they do want to survive better, after all. The problem here being, you get punished for trying to make a more RP character. As I've said, this has been my experience, and it made me re-think how to build my characters in the future. Which is unfortunate, I think.

So maybe another benefit of this proposal would be to help non-power-build characters out, and enable them to keep exploring new continents and new parts of the world.

Edit: I really should have posted this on the other thread... -.- forgive me


And another Edit: RP is fun. XP is fun, too! If there were no hope of getting past level one - wow. If there were no hope of RP - again, wow. People have this attitude as though asking for XP changes or further balancing is a greedy, immoral notion. It's not. I'd go on but I'd just be repeating Pen's words.

[jrizz]

First off, there are great points in this whole thread. What I want to point out it that there is a reward system in place for good RP, it is called the WL. Now I know a PC has to be 20th level to apply (as well as many other reqs) and I think it is right to have that. Being 20th level shows you know how to use that PC and have dedicated time in honing your and your PCs skills. The reward is that you go from 20 to 21 (that is 3 million XP!). PnP if any one is WL worthy it is you. You just have to get a PC to 20th level, keep doing the things you do, keep a CDT (as I am sure you do) and you should have a great shot at the biggest RP reward Layo has to offer.
I am sure that you can come back with a reply about how you hardley ever see WLs around RPing (except for Ozy and a very few others) and how many of them are in clicks and how that goes against the whole WL idea. But that is not how you would be as a WL. I am sure you would be as present and accessible as Ozy. It really does not take that much effort to make 20th (unless you want to do it in 4 months LOL) it just takes time and dedication to one PC. That is part of the sacrifice that WLs make. While the rest of us have a bunch of PCs that we use to entertain ourselfs they focus almost completley on one. So PnP please go for it, I think you would be as shinning a light as a WL as you are a RPer.

[miltonyorkcastle]

**rubs forehead**

If you're not adventuring, you don't deserve adventuring levels. If you want RP "levels," you're going to have to devise your own system, so you can go up to people and say, "I'm a level 15 Role Player!." If that's what makes you feel better.

Handing a person an adventuring level for roleplay, as stated before, doesn't make sense. In fact, it's really not fair to give away free adventuring levels to people who don't adventure. It's like saying, "Look! You're now a master cake designer even though you've never even baked a cake in your entire life!"

And again, as I stated before, for those people that don't want to adventure, there are other occupational options. Adventuring is an occupation, just like farming, selling, fishing, or whatever other occupations you can think of.

[LynnJuniper]

Okay but if levels are based on adventuring why can't a world leader who has done world changing things not based on level (Kat's Foundation, Jennara's Roldem Donations, PnP's Whisper) Get WL? I can understand why adventuring = adventuring levels Milton, but..

Changing the world =/= adventuring levels
Riding a Horse =/= Adventuring Levels

Just to name a few.

To Edit this : I agree with the time Frame. A Few months for CN, More for Evil, a Year for WL. That much makes sense. I'm not 'flaming' anything or poking holes in a system, merely giving an opinion. People don't have to be able to cast 9th level spells or have 32 STR and Epic Feats to do something worth while in the world and have it recognized.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Lynn,

As Acacea has said, why you have to be 15th lvl to buy a horse or above level 20 to be a world leader, I don't know. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but that's the decision of the Leanthar, and I'm always going to support him, whether I agree with everything or not. Though I would claim, as I pointed out earlier, that it's just another way in which we have tried to fit the adventuring system to account for roleplaying. The fit is awkward, and, in most cases, just plain doesn't work.

Time frames for applications to play a tiefer or be a WL are measures outside of the NWN system, and, correct me if I'm wrong, work under the assumption that given time in the world, people are going to progress in their ability as roleplayers. Really, this is an objective way to account for the disparities between experienced and less experienced RPers, giving those with less experience time to develop and make an impact, while at the same time keeping the more experienced RPers from "ruling" the world within a few weeks, heh. It's not a measure of RP, but a balancing system, and goes along with how the Team keeps the world as an inviting environment for RP.

[LynnJuniper]

Alright Milton Now that that's understood, I am in perfect agreement with you on the matter of Adventuring = XP .

[MJZ]

I have to say the World Leader system is wonderful, and I'm very glad it's in place.

Talking about "RP levels", though.. while I do see the point made by Milton, I think that's undermining the reasons behind the suggestion in the first place. Gaining levels doesn't just help you kill things better - and also, while there are occupational paths, killing is still the backbone of all experience. It may be "adventuring" experience, but it's not "killing" experience - why do I receive XP for bringing someone scrolls, or a chair? It certainly shouldn't help increase my killing power! I don't think experience is as simply defined as that.

And my definition of RP isn't just chatting with a few friends in town. I think one of Pen's point was that he felt a limitation as to how far RP can get you, past chatting with friends. Occupations are RP - but you get 5xp for successfully cutting, and 7xp for polishing a gem at about 65% chance of success. So suggestions like LaM are being put forth.

Anyways. I have to agree I think Pen would make an amazing WL.


Edit: Ehh.. let me reword that. My mind is colours at the moment.

Killing is at the moment the backbone of gaining adventuring experience, and perhaps an implement like LaM or some other suggestion would assuage the problems this causes for players that can't devote many hours a day or a week to bashing, etc. Saying that RP shouldn't get you any XP I think is rather unfair - because that limits XP to killing, and it's not called "killing" experience, after all.

[Pen N Popper]

I don't disagree with the current requirements for becoming a WL, and I certainly would not want to see the door opened up wide.  At a level a month, a new PC would reach 20th after 15 months.  That seems a reasonable amount of time to establish that PC as a WL through RP and deeds.

Can we stop talking about bakers and seamstresses?  What about the stealthy rogue?  How about a weapon master teaching at an academy?  How about a mage teaching potions?  What about a WL bard performing in the square?  These are all examples of skills directly applicable to the chosen "adventuring" class of the PC.

Are you honestly saying that someone RPing their PC as the adventurer he/she is is of less value to the world's immersion than someone that kills the same giant spawn for the 50th time?   Some find that fun.  Some don't.  Neither are wrong and I think this world is big enough to support and encourage both plus everything in between.

The legendary figure of Miyamoto Musashi fought but 60 duels.  The rest of the time you know what he was doing?  That's right, RPing his class.

[MJZ]

Can we stop talking about bakers and seamstresses?  What about the stealthy rogue?  How about a weapon master teaching at an academy?  How about a mage teaching potions?  What about a WL bard performing in the square?  These are all examples of skills directly applicable to the chosen "adventuring" class of the PC.

This is what I mean about RP being more than chatting, and also why it would be valid for something like LaM to exist, in accordance with the logic and meaning of "adventuring experience."

[Kindo]

I don't disagree with the current requirements for becoming a WL, and I certainly would not want to see the door opened up wide.  At a level a month, a new PC would reach 20th after 15 months.  That seems a reasonable amount of time to establish that PC as a WL through RP and deeds.

Yes, and of course the requirements for being accepted as a WL would still apply. A good, thorough CDT, some properly done CDQ's, and other in-game role-play factors. It needs to be someone who is still considered "worthy of being a leader" by the rest of the community, in an RP-sense.

Additionally, it makes no sense why the highly established person who is running a newspaper and leading an organisation for a long period of time, would not be meeting the requirements to be a WL. This person is obviously too busy to go out killing monsters for hours on end, and should he not still be given the opportunity to advance in levels at a reasonable rate, such as one level per month after level 10 or so? As Pen has mentioned already, it would still take fifteen months before that character would reach level 20, and that level could be reached quicker if you were simply grinding monsters all day long. Having characters receive one level per month would undoubtedly promote role-play, and actually remove much of the focus on monster-bashing that is currently in place.