Confessions of an RPer

[jrizz]

**rubs forehead**
Handing a person an adventuring level for roleplay, as stated before, doesn't make sense. In fact, it's really not fair to give away free adventuring levels to people who don't adventure.

Is not that what is done with WLs. They work hard to qualify then they get a chance through a WLCDQ to "change the world" and if successful they get 3 million XP. I am sure that no matter how long a WLCDQ is it aint long enough to cover the amount of time needed to gain 3 million XP by adventuring. I wont even mention the amount of non WL track players that perm between 20 and 21. So it is a safe (but very hard due the amount of time needed to put into your CDT, being on many quests, getting known famous or infamous, and being a agent for change or events in the world) mostly RP way of getting 3 million XP.

[Gunther]

Theres a lot of interesting ideas in this post, and I'll admit right now that I dont have a solution to the XP for RP issue.

I dont however much like the concept of LaM.  Maybe its just pure self indulgence, but I played Gunther for almost two years before I made 20th level.  In all likelihood he'll never see 21st.  Thats fine.  He's not a WL kind of character.  He has difficulty tying his shoelaces.  Nonetheless, it was a lot of effort to get there.  Time and effort.  I'll be terribly sad when he finally croaks for good.  Would I be as attached to a character that baked pies and got a LaM.  I cant think that I would be.

In regard to being a fencing master or whatever, I have to respectfully disagree.  Being cloistered in a training hallway in no way prepares one for the real world.  Said fencing master would have to go out and adventure.  Make a name for himself to eventually attract students.  Learn himself how to defeat a beholder, so he might be able to at least train others in the concept of how to defeat a beholder.  Maybe neither here nor there, but i fenced for a number of years.  I got fairly good at it.  If I were now walking down Main St. and saw a beholder would I be able to fight it?  No, I'd mess myself and run away crying like a little girl.  Yes, there are a number of flaws in this analogy.  Feel free to pick them apart.  I enjoyed writing it anyway.

I think monster bashing is an integral part of gaining xp and being an adventurer.  A minimal amount of xp should be granted for baking pies and standing around Hlint chatting about how despondent you are that the love of your life ran away with a Battlehelm swamp troll.  Should someone eventually get to WL status for chatting about how much they now loath the vile and lascivious swamp trolls?  Man, I hope not.  If anybody even gets to 20th level without accruing some DTs, then they really havent been adventuring.  The name of the game is Dungeons and Dragons, not Commerce and Commiseration.

When it comes to PnP, I wish there was a better system for ya.  If anybody deserves it, you do.  However (and I wish I was a more diplomatic person), does coming up with a notable contribution(s) entitle one to a level?  I'd hope not.  Does it enhance layo and make it a better place?  Sure does.  And if my vote mattered, and if you were 20th level, I'd certainly vote for ya for WL status.

If I offended anyone, please know that I wrote this more less tongue in cheek.  My intent was not to offend and I apologize if I did so.  

By the way, Gunther'd be more than happy to meet a 20th level pie master.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Alrighty.

First: As far as the Killing=XP issue, that has to do with how the system works, not "for what" the system is working. That is, experience per kill is one way (and perhaps the primary way) the system measures your advancement as an adventurer. It still has nothing to do with using a measure of adventuring status to represent RP status. Now, if you want to start a new thread indicating a way we can start measuring advancement as an adventurer other than through kills, by all means, do so. And there are other systems out there that do this. Unfortunatey not the DnD system built into NWN. There are other ways to gain XP, like NPC quests and even GM quests, but I do agree with you that killing is the backbone of XP for adventurers. I'm not saying I like this, but my point is, don't equate that to a measure of RP.

Second: PnP, let's take a look at a weaponmaster teaching at an academy. I'm assuming that what you are adressing is the notion of occupation, specifically in regard to separating "adventurer" as an occupation unto itself.

Now then, we'll have to start this discussion by recognizing some definitions. First, DnD (NWN) classes represent "skill sets," not occupations. These skill sets help to define a character's chosen path as an adventurer.
Second, we have to distuinguish between a "trade" and an "occupation." A person's occupation is their livelihood. In essence, it's how they survive. A trade, or tradeskill, on the other hand, is actually a complex set of skills that can be used to develop an occupation, or simply as a hobby, or to supplement an occupation. Craft Skills and many classes fall under this heading. You can have extraordinary cooking skills, but not actually make a living as a cook.

Returning to your idea of the weaponmaster teaching at an academy, you have to ask the question: What is his occupation? Teaching? Weaponmaster-ing? or Adventuring?  And it's easy to answer. What provides his/her livelihood? If all he does is teach at the academy, gets his pay from the headmaster, and never has the need to travel beyond his home city, then I'd say his occupation is teaching. If someone were to actually pay her enough money to live on to master a weapon, her occupation might actually be weaponmaster-ing. If, on the other hand, this weaponmaster makes his fortune traveling the lands, cutting up bandits and diving for treasure, his occupation is adventuring. In all cases, the character is using his tradeskill as a weaponmaster to advance an occupation.

So why say all this mumbo jombu, blah blah about occupations and trade skills? Because of this: It seems, PnP, that you make the point that a character using his/her skills in any situation somehow fulfills the requirements of the adventurering occupation. It, in fact, does not. Simply applying the skills of your class does not constitute adventuring.

Third: Disregarding the "spawn factor" inherent to the nature of the video game, killing 50 groups of monsters is, to an adventurer, equivalent to baking 50 groups of cupcakes to a baker. Both are requirements of the occupation.
Again, let me point out, this has nothing to do with RP advancment.

--------------

Alright, the next question is how the heck is a system that's supposed to and desgned to measure advancement in an occupation (adventuring), actually translate to increasing your ability in some given trade skill (mage, fighter, rogue)? Well, I can lay out the idea behind its structure, and then you can decide whether it really accomplishes what it (the system) sets out to do. Basically, the system assumes that as you adventure, you use the skills related to your trade skill (class) to survive. In doing so, as you get better at adventuring, you also get better at your class abilities, since you were constantly using them so survive.  This then should lead you to understand why the choice of classes that we have exist, and why they're called "adventuring classes." These particular trade skills lend themselves in some strong way to adventuring. Baking, selling dresses, and the like can contribute to adventuring, but in general they don't have a serious impact on the survival of an adventurer.

Again, to clarify, DnD's system for adventuring advancement only includes the classes (trade skills) it thinks applies most directly to adventuring. NWN doesn't have these, but the NPC classes in Pen and Paper DND are supposed to account for tradeskill advancement outside of adventuring classes.

Finally, it can be argued what exactly defines the occupation of adventuring. Is a rogue working for a thieves guild an adventurer? Is a paladin in service to his church an adventurer? I think the only way to answer these questions is to go back to the definition of an occupation itself. What provides the character his primary livelihood? Is it the church that offers room and board in exchange for fighting evil? Or is it the occasional magic item you gank off a dead cave dweller and sell to pay for your next night's stay at the inn?

[Pen N Popper]

I don't disagree with anything miltonyorkcastle has said.  I do think there is room for opinion around it, but it's not inherently wrong in my opinion.

Perhaps if I put my premise in different terms it will be clearer.

Do we want academy instructors, singing bards, and even bakers in Layonara?

This is the meat of my thinking.  You see, I do want them.  I want players to be able to pick a career path where they can decide the balance of RP to killing.  

Some may want to rush up to 10th level in two months.  It would still be four months more before they'd get a free bump to 11th level (expected to be 5th level at end of first month for free bump to 6th level, 7th after month two, 8th at three, 9th at four, bump to 10th at end of month five, and finally bump to 11th at end of month six).  In all likelyhood, most players will be ahead of the curve into the teen levels.  Afterall, most of us do like some percent of our RP/action ratio to be action.

With all the strict criteria for getting the free level (as per my other thread), some may opt not to do it at all.  But if you hit 14th level and decide that killing 620k XP worth of monsters is just eating up way too much of your RP time, take a breather.  Add some depth to your PC's life.

[Polak76]

"The name of the game is Dungeons and Dragons, not Commerce and Commiseration." - Now thats got to be the Line of the Post!  Thanks Gunther!  Until reading that I've had a terrible morning with almost no sleep due to an irrate baby, have been overburdened with hundreds of issues here at work and have been further frustrated with what I'm reading on this post, then you come up with this absolute pearler (pearler - aussie term for top stuff!)

You've summed it up well.  If we start doing this Level a Month nonsense I'll feel sorry for all those people like yourself that have spent what seems like eons getting to level 20, dodging the soul mother in all her glory and all those late nights adventuring.

Where is it written that we need XP to enjoy RP.  In essence what we are discussing here is gaining levels by sitting around talking about whatever.  If what you want to do is make cakes, or teach scribing, you dont need to get to level 20.  So why then do you need XP?  A well known Arch Mage makes his place in the world by confronting dangers more often that one can believe.  The worlds best swordsman slays countless demons, wins endless battles and survives the soul mother's cold grasp to reach the top.  He doesn't get there by reading books on tactics and formations whilst practising on dummies and talking about it.

All in all the place aint broke so don't fix it.  I certainly know Leanthar has more patience than me.  I'd be half considering pulling the plug by now.
Anyway we're all guests here and should enjoy what we got rather than knit-pick over details and try to make it suit our own desires.

Anyway should it happen that a level per month is implemented I won't complain.  I'll make four characters and have them all at level 20 in 15 months.  Hell, why don't i make another account and make it eight characters.  I have this feeling it will ahve the opposite effect you all intend.  I'm not sure who the rest of you hang around with on Layo but the people I Rp with enjoy a nice balance of both RP and Action and we're having a ball.

[AeonBlues]

And I guess it's assumed there would be a cap on this? Since you need a special quest to attain level 21, the free levels would end before then.

Is this still true?  While I have not seen any post stating that no quest is required to make epic levels, the term ECDQ, has been completely removed from our forums.

Perhaps this should be posted under "Ask a DM" but I am under the impression that no special quest is required to make epic levels now.

Further more, Leanthar writes the following in  his post What does it take to be a World Leader?

"• There is an XP barrier at level 20 that will require all non World Leaders to work through via quests and killing creatures. All World Leaders will be given enough XP to jump them over that barrier at the completion of their WLDQ—whatever level that may be completed at. That is a major benefit, along with the item reward for completing the WLDQ as well as the ability to support and aid the community once becoming a World Leader. The XP barrier can still be worked through by any player (or character) not desiring to become a World Leader. This means that everybody can level up to the max level allowed in Layonara, regardless of being a World Leader or not. •"


AeonBlues

[Gunther]

I believe you no longer need the ECDQ to get 21st.  However, you do have to toil through an obscene amount of xp to get there without it.  And if you're an ECL3, then good luck.  Hahahahahahhaha.  Wait a minute....

[Kindo]

But if you hit 14th level and decide that killing 620k XP worth of monsters is just eating up way too much of your RP time, take a breather. Add some depth to your PC's life.

Truer words have never been spoken. Players should definitely, without a doubt, be given this option. Adding depth to a PC's life... It's not something that can be easily done during war parties, fighting for days on end to gain those hundreds of thousands (or millions) XP.

I will say it again: a system like this would definitely promote more role-play and take some weight off the current focus on monster-bashing. The bashing of monsters will still be there, and still prove a "quicker" way of gaining your levels, but if these proposed changes go through, then at least we will have a choice, and choice is exactly what defines an on-line multi-player role-playing game. At least in my opinion.

[Skywatcher]

I have to say that I really dislike the idea of level per month on a number of levels.  It sounds like getting something for nothing which is against one of the guiding principles of Layonara.  Would anyone think it was ok to put a character on a level per month plan for crafting?  All of the same arguements could be made in reverse that if I want my character to adventure a lot but still be a great weapon maker then I could spend all of my time adventuring and sign up for the level a month plan in weapon crafting.  That wouldn't make sense either to me, again something for nothing.  It seems to me that the real issue is one of balance and everything in moderation.  Everyone makes choices about how to spend their time on Layo.  I am personally amazed at how flexible the world is in this regard.  Each player can choose to adventure or craft or sit around and talk or quest or make something up.  RP is broader than just talking or emoting.  It is everything that a character does.  Layo allows us all to have fun within limits and I really apreciate that.  I have great respect for people who choose to spend all of their time here having fun talking to people and walking around seeing sights.  I also have great respect for people who choose to spend their time adventuring and don't desire much social interaction.  As Milton said Layo is an RP world using DnD and NWN so that means you can do both Pure RP and Pure DnD if you chose.  I think we just need to let each other have fun the way we choose to and work within the system that we all sign up for when we join.  The team is great here and have thought these issues through much more than I can imagine.  At this stage having had NWN around for so long and used it for the Layo world I think they have refined the system to a razor's edge and although there are still improvements coming the basic operations of leveling and character development seem pretty well set and based on sound reasoning.  Anyway that's my 2 trues.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Allow me to interject with my own little comment.

I like the idea of LaM on quite a few levels, but don't disagree with those who don't like it. The points are good on either side of the board.

I just like coming up with systems that could possibly work; thus, the quick thing I whipped up.

[_M_O_B_]

I still think it is funny that wizards HAVE to kill things to learn new spells, druids have to kill things to get more in touch with nature, rogues have to kill things to get better at picking locks, etc.

[Pseudonym]

Just a thought.
I am personally against a planned level progression.
I do, however, find this nn interesting and worthy discussion and a personal thanks to Pen N Popper for his ongoing concerns and thoughts on how to improve the community.

[Gunther]

The current crafting system seems to work just fine for Gunther.  I've turned to it time and again when I cant stand the thought of mindlessly hacking down another fuzzy woodland critter for their 1xp.  Even though its fun to irritate Drogo (it was more fun when he didnt speak common), you can only eviscerate so many bunnies before it gets old.

For awhile I even turned it into a smelting business, supplying ingots to people.  And I made some armor for folks and the occasional weapon.  Crafting is entertaining in its own right and I think the current system works just fine.

I've done the mindless hacking apart of critters and the toilsome mining and crafting.  Enjoyed them both until I couldnt stand either.  Then I take a break for a few weeks or so.  Always seem to come back though.  Layo is like sweet, sweet crack.  You cant escape it.

I say it again.  Crack.

Layocrack.  You didnt shower today.  You just played Layo.  You might not shower tomorrow either.

[stragen]

I would like to thank PnP for his commitment to this world, and creating great characters that interact with others.  Every time I bump into one of his characters it makes me strive to improve my own characterisation and acting.

PnP the rewards for your great roleplay are
(1) Respect in the community for the effort and
(2) Stronger reactions to you characters by other characters when the interact.

This is the reward for roleplay.

I agree with miltonyorkcastle that reward for adventuring (and questing) is more  adventuring levels.

Personally I find this game is dull if there is no-one else around to interact with.  Either adventuring or roleplay.  But if you can get a few people together then it's great.  Don't be afraid to send a tell to others (me) asking if they want to roleplay or adventure with you.  Yes tells are OCC.  But there no point waiting around Prantz or Hempstead or Vehl if there are no characters about hoping to get some roleplay or adventure when they arrive.  Send a tell to find out where they are, then arrange to bump into them.  Our time as real people is too precious to be wasted not having fun in a game.  Its a computer game!  Its supposed to be fun!

Cheers,

Stragen

[Polak76]

I still think it is funny that wizards HAVE to kill things to learn new spells, druids have to kill things to get more in touch with nature, rogues have to kill things to get better at picking locks, etc.

I find it even more amusing if people hang about talking and gaining xp then take Weapon focus or power attack when it comes to feat time or tumble and heal with regards to skills.  Or a rogue who has never once opened a lock yet has an extremely high lockpicking skill.

Anyway we already have a system for getting xp rather than hacking n slashing.  Its called GM quests.
The only thing i object to is taking away xp for CDQ's.  Rather than taking it away they should simply restrict people gaining too much/mth.

[Weeblie]

Anyway should it happen that a level per month is implemented I won't complain.  I'll make four characters and have them all at level 20 in 15 months.  Hell, why don't i make another account and make it eight characters.  I have this feeling it will ahve the opposite effect you all intend.  I'm not sure who the rest of you hang around with on Layo but the people I Rp with enjoy a nice balance of both RP and Action and we're having a ball.

Right on spot (even true in case you put a max 1 character under the level-a-month system/account AND even if a minimum of 1 hour logged in/day-rule is present).

Myself? I'm not overly fond of going out somewhere to kill something, yet adventuring trips is something that I do go on a little now and then (say... once each or each other week). Quests comes in waves. Before, I regulary went on 1 quest/week but for the moment, I'm down to something like... 0.5 quest/month.

Does it bother me? Nope! Not the slighest. Been here 16 month or so, reached level 17 which is probably slower than most. Yet, feeling that my character has superior history compared to many PCs exceeding/equal her in pure game-mechanic levels.

Most epics know her (not only by name). Many mid-level characters know her. Some low level character know her also (Granted, those are becomming fewer due to the fact that low-level characters are not staying at low levels for so long if one's not intentionally putting one's PC on a bench in Hempstead!).

Knowing that my character has a higher "level" than many others, although not measureable and not shown on the character-page, keeps me all happy and content with how she is! I would never, ever even thinking about trading that for pure game-mechanic levels.

Edit: Oh... last words... Yes, I believe I have found a balance between sitting in Hempstead and going on trips that suits myself perfectly.

[DMOE]

Truer words have never been spoken. Players should definitely, without a doubt, be given this option. Adding depth to a PC's life... It's not something that can be easily done during war parties, fighting for days on end to gain those hundreds of thousands (or millions) XP.

I will say it again: a system like this would definitely promote more role-play and take some weight off the current focus on monster-bashing. The bashing of monsters will still be there, and still prove a "quicker" way of gaining your levels, but if these proposed changes go through, then at least we will have a choice, and choice is exactly what defines an on-line multi-player role-playing game. At least in my opinion.

Not meaning to be adversarial but I managed to get lot of depth into my main characters life in the just over a year it took her to reach lvl 20 under the present system.  I am presently adding depth into my second characters life in her progression up the levels.

I think one of the greatest compliments I received was when my second character hit lvl 9 and someone commented "not bad for a primarily RP character"

RP is what you make it.  The pressure to level is what YOU make it.

While I am not saying that a system to reward RP in someway would not be welcome.  I am totally against the 'free level a month'.

If you want time to develop your character's RP without the pressure to bash....Guess what?  Don't bash.  No one but you puts pressure on yourself to level quickly and many, many people have coped with the systems as it stands.

You've managed to reach 15th level in less than 3 months...complete credit to you if that's how you wish to play....Both of my characters have sat waiting to gain just one level in 3 months.  If you want time to develop your character, then I suggest you take the time to do that and accept you level more slowly for it.....Like the rest of us did.

[Hellblazer]

Or you can do both. Development of a character should be started even before your character would appear on layo, know his background, his affinities, how he would react to different situation etc. What happens here after that is how you want others to perceive your character. True some events and RP with some people will mold your char in different aspect that you didn't even intend. But most of it is or should be done before you type in your first words.

An example of this would be my latest char. It took me 6 month to think of him, granted 6 month ago, he wouldn't have been approved due to age. But still, I took those 6 month to think of him, his responses, his likings and dislikes, how I would build him, what he would look like (things changed with time on his looks) this is all part of character development, and of course having  the world changing even before he was on it had its effect too.

There can be a balance between RP and adventuring, its just a hard one to maintain at times.

[Joyrock]

I have faced the same problem as well as many of my friends, to the point we shamelessly call Layo WoW because that what it feels like. Even WoW has RP servers, and you get about the same amount there as here, due to the mass rush for XP.

TO be honest there just not enough conflict of intrest here, a CvC was added to fix this but never been used because to put it simple a standard has been brain washed into everyone to NEVER use it even for RP, turning something added to add RP into a useless tool, due to fear of being looked down on in the eyes of players and DM's, and possibly even being banned for fear you made a mistake. :S

I find in many ways layo is a victim of it's standards, but that a tale for another time.

The best method I can think of to fit layo, would be RP tokens that increase the XP gained from monsters yu kill by 25% a token. Being I have seen the amount of Rp one must do to get a RP reward it pretty rare, so you have to make a system that makes up for the amount of time.

Last time I got a reward was after 4 hours of RP and was 310ish of XP I am guessing 3% of the Xp needed to level or around there. If that the amount used then well then I need 30 such XP rewards to level at a avg of 4 hours each that 120 hours.

the thing about the 25% tokens that stack is this. it will take you 6 days to level that is 144 hours. Now you use these RP tokens, make them RP rewards only handed out from a DM ghosting players and finding non DM related RP, and reward it. you get 4 of these tokens which take you about 2 days lets say well that half's the time needed gathering XP through farming. coming out to 72 hours needed if you stop gather RP tokens at that point. which in turns comes out to 3 days + the 2 you spent RPing to get the tokens comes out to 5 days instead of 6. making leveling through RP the better way to level then just monster bash farming.

For high level chars that would take 288 hours to level (12 days) 4 tokens would only take 6 days.

There no fool proof system, but this one does work when used properly.

[miltonyorkcastle]

**shakes head** mixing adventuring XP with RP experience.... I think I wrote a treatise on that topic... now where did I put it... **looks up** oh, right....