The World of Layonara

The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pen N Popper on April 03, 2007, 02:07:07 pm

Title: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 03, 2007, 02:07:07 pm
I have made (too) many posts over the past months regarding tring to find a balance between gaining XP and levels versus RP. My stubborn disbelief of reality has caused me to continue this fruitless endeavor.  Slowly, though, it is dawning on me that I am simply a freshwater fish swimming in the salty ocean.  Other similar fish have either expired or adapted.

While Layonara is not an RP server, but an RP Action server, I always stood firmly that RP came first. I began to see, though, that there was no progression available purely through RP.  One attained levels by adventuring.  Levels, being the core mechanic of NWN, determined ones place in Layonara:  WLs must be 20th level to even apply, horses are not acquired until mid-teen levels, large chests and housing portals cannot be placed at low levels, the advanced crafting hall is 10th level to even enter.  All these things point out quite clearly that levels are the path we players must toe.  Gaining XP through adventure is not "a necessary evil," as I often told myself, but the actual goal of the world.  We are rewarded not for RP, but our success as adventurers.

I stubbornly refused to believe that this was the case.  Surely committed RP and stellar devotion to cause and character would yield similar reward.  Slowly, though, I digressed from my personal standards of "RP always" and interspersed it with combat runs through areas:  Traversing up and down Haven for no other purpose than to gain XP.  Racing across Dregar behind higher levels or with large groups.  Worst of all, loitering in empty Pranzis for hours because I was afraid as soon as I went West for some RP, a party would show up on central and I'd miss the XP.

Is any of this bad? No, not at all. Layonara dictates that our PCs be adventurers more often than commoners. It is always our own choice, of course, to pick between a long RP session as a newsletter writer versus a rogue archer.  Depending on the degree to which you believe that "RP is its own reward," your balance will be different.  Personally, in a level based world like Layonara I continually find myself struggling to find this balance.

Why?  I don't find mindless XP gathering at all immersive.  I like combat tactics, ambushes, campfires, and ale.  I also like feeling successful and that, for me on Layonara, means gaining levels.  There is no other career path.  Making a successful brownie newsletter writer was a challenge and rewarding in itself, but only up to a point.  No amount of fame or RL time will let a 9th level PC become a WL, own a horse, or get better at a Gather Information skill.

I have taken breaks from Layonara in the past, not long ones to be sure.  I enjoy the server aspects tremendously here:  The courteous staff, LORE and letter systems, parchment and quest chests, forums and gallery, and the nonsensical chatter on IRC.  Not to mention the time invested here getting to know those systems and the personalities of the world.  It's unlikely that I'll completely give up trying to find what I'm looking for here.  Would I leave if I found a server more in line with my playing style? Yes.  Do I really think that will happen? No.  Are you stuck with me? Looks that way.

I'm a guest in this salty pond so I ought stop trying to take out the flavor and just enjoy the taste.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Ozy_Llewellyn on April 03, 2007, 02:21:55 pm
Brave, very brave.
No two cents from myself, just thought I’d applaud that bit of bravery.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: orth on April 03, 2007, 02:44:17 pm
If you have a concrete means to code a system that would reward the grey area of RP or can point to some of those posts, we'll try our best to achieve a reward for RP.  We've banged our heads over it for some time.

I once considered a system that simply coded the amount you're typing, whether it's emotes or talking or such, roleplay for the most part doesn't happen unless you're typing something, but I couldn't think of ways to prevent it being abused. Maybe Nibor willb e up for revisiting this.

The truth of the matter is RP is 95% of the time rewarded with quests.  Yet even if you don't roleplay on quests you usually still get your XP.  If you can't make quests then you're in trouble.  Which you seem to always have been lamenting.

The only other way I can think of to continually reward roleplay with experience points is have 100 DMs and always a presence in the world.

I'll think more on this though.
orth
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 03, 2007, 02:49:40 pm
A sample of my ineptness at adaptation:

http://www.layonara.com/general-discussion/102370-military-organizations.html
http://www.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/109381-earning-level-per-month.html
http://www.layonara.com/general-discussion/109585-freelancer-combat-academy-info.html
http://www.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/114844-truly-dynamic-world.html

All of these basically say the same thing:  Isn't there more to playing then just bashing?
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: LynnJuniper on April 03, 2007, 03:00:23 pm
Its sad that the Combat Academy died off. I had fun with my Illusion Seminar. ---

PnP Don't be discouraged: You do a lot to set the standard for RP in this place, and you try and you try and you try and people do appreciate it. Even so far as to say it influences other such events. For example, I wouldn't never thought to have held a wizard's convention if I didn't enjoy the combat academy so much..

I dont know if that helps, but You are trying and you are appreciated as a top notch rper, even if the Levels and numbers don't show it.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Niles09 on April 03, 2007, 04:44:38 pm
Well said! I kinda feel the same... its not fun being stuck at a level, cause it is what determines your place in this world in the end.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: twidget658 on April 03, 2007, 06:22:50 pm
How often do the WL's and GM's use their xp wand to reward good RP? I believe that was one system that was introduced to reward good RP.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: LynnJuniper on April 03, 2007, 06:26:43 pm
So few world leaders are ever seen online due to personal reasons and through no fault of their own, so it is not really surprising that this is so rarely used. To my experience and the best of my abilities (I can not be awake nor online at all hours myself) I only notice 4-6 active world leaders that are active on the characters that are WL. Others are DEFINTILEY around in the world, helping and up to their heads in work (EdtheKet, Orth etc) but perhaps not often on their respective characters.

For imperial convenience (Thanks to the brilliance of the LORE system), you can simply peek online to see when a world leader has last played.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Ozy_Llewellyn on April 03, 2007, 07:04:53 pm
I suppose since I stumbled upon this Twidget I should reply.

‘How often do the WL's and GM's use their xp wand to reward good RP? I believe that was one system that was introduced to reward good RP.’
 
As a world leader I feel its sort of my job to answer this question of yours. The answer is, very little. There are several reasons, of which two will be listed, I personally don’t use it and they probably apply to all the others as well not to mention other better reasons.
The first reason is that it is incredibly boring waiting for people to role-play around you unless your in a group. I have spent countless times in Hlint, Hempstead and soon enough Stormcrest for two to three hours on end without so much as a hello as people walk on by. The record duration for this is eight hours and often six hours. Even then the most I normally get is a ‘Hello’ or more often ‘((afk))’.
The second reason is upon the wand itself and throughout the forums there are multiple warnings about the results of overusing the wand. For me the result is only using the wand on the following stipulations.
a) Ozy is not on a first name basis with that character to prevent the possible accusation of favoritism.
b) I have not in recollection or in my notes used the wand on that character before.
c) That I could argue into the dirt why that character deserves an hours worth of quest XP just for role-playing around me. This includes screenshots, text logs, and CD threads all to show as proof.
d) Do to infrequency of use, I remember I have the wand and screenshots and text logs and can find the CD thread in good time.
Of course you would notice there are a few catch twenty twos in this, if your qualifying under c, doesn’t that put you in severe risk for a? Don’t worry, next double experience weekend I will forgot my four rules and use the ‘do I think they deserve a use of this’ rule.

I hope this answers your question politely and informatively, drop me a line to tell me how I could of made this post better. No really I’ve re-written it four times now and this is as good as I can manage.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Polak76 on April 03, 2007, 07:08:23 pm
I think you guys are looking far too deeply into something that is quite simply a computer game.
It frightens me how passionate people get about their characters about how irritated others get when people level fast or how he/she got this and I only got that, about that person going on 5 quests a week and I only get 1/mth...etc.
 
Everyone wants to get high in level, see their character tough and be a hero.  You can do this on many other RP servers quite easily, yet it's a fast and shallow path, with little intriuge or lure for further advancement.  I've made plenty of 40 level combinations on RP servers, some within a week but they all lack substance and I end up back on Layo with a slow progressing yet richly developed character.

Now with regards to XP for RP, this has been discussed so many times I've lost count.  Sometimes you get lucky and someone was watching over your shoulder and drops a surprise XP bonus, other times you spend countless hours with the best RP sessions and no one rewards you with XP.  But is this truely the reward you need for good RP?  Of course not.  The reward is development & creativity.

Technically though i think the only way people 'could' get XP for RP is to record their chat-log and send it to GM's to review.  Could you imagine how impossible and time consuming this would be?  So I think we simply need to revert to having a WL or GM around.

Us Corathites would have to be the slowest levelers on the server, but i can assure you we've spent countless hours plotting and scheming all to which goes unrewarded with XP, but offers the best entertainment that no TV program can offer.

Lately though some of us have decided to go adventuring and earn some xp and gold, but the RP doesn't end here.  It's amusing how many times we head out and end up getting into RP debates or arguments and the adventuring gets pushed back.  In all cases its quite entertaining and captures the best of both worlds.

So in a nut shell I simply feel people should relax and simply enjoy the escape from our busy lifestyles (well busy for me that is).

Polak76
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 03, 2007, 07:24:58 pm
Regarding Ozy's response, why doesn't his PC get XP?  Why shouldn't all the Shack staffers get XP for spending an hour or three or eight just being there?  Can you honestly say they don't earn it?

That strikes to the heart of my issue, really.  Why aren't we (collective community we) rewarding the behavior we want to see propagated?  The reason is simple:  Jealousy, envy, and misunderstanding.

Leanthar and the team are right in not making XP a subjective thing.  Why should anyone but myself and my online companions judge my RP?  Sometimes I'm attentive to it, other times I'm not, sometimes I mess up, sometimes I shine.  Who are you to judge me?  You see?

My only solution is the "free level per month."  Some will progress faster than that, but some of us will just RP/adventure as we are able and enjoy it.  Do you realize the disparity between leveling times right now?  There are players that know how to get to 20th level in four months!  We reward fast leveling inherently because everything that matters is level based.

Another question you have to ask is why aren't there more WLs around?  Burn out?  No more progression in character development?  What is it?  Give me a WL wand and you better believe I'm building an army and rewarding them for their RP efforts at it.

There's no right answer.  I find it hard to believe that a player that plays consistently (in whatever form they choose) every week for a year doesn't deserve to be at 17th level.  Why would you begrudge someone that reward for their loyalty and dedication to the world?
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Stephen_Zuckerman on April 03, 2007, 07:42:14 pm
Honestly, if you put the XP wand in my hands, I'd use it a lot. I'd probably get reprimanded for using it too much, honestly, but if I RP with someone for two hours, who's to say that they deserve XP any less than someone who goes on an hour-long quest and doesn't do anything but point and click?

I think the whole thing's a bit of a tough subject, really. I was (and am) all for the "level a month" deal.

I don't favor RP over XP. I favor both equally. I can enjoy going out, finding some new area, and bashing the living heck out of it, just as much as I can enjoy Pyyran handing out some rogue-ish, fatherly advice to a new Shadowdancer over the course of an hour. Pretty much all I've done with Ceviren Lightstaff, my currently most active character, is grind potions. There've been some great spots of RP in there, but I spent hours this morning doing nothing but making holy water and healing potions.

The progression is nice. I'm progressing at a nice rate with Ceviren, XP-wise, and I think that's just dandy. With Pyyran, it'll probably be another month or two before I can even go to Belinara with Sall, but... That's fine, too. The RP is nice.

My secret is that I satisfy my different gaming cravings on different characters. In-depth character development? Pyyran. Tangible progression? Ceviren. Mindless, brutal bashing? Grok. Something of different fare? Xu or Tyeaan. I RP with all, and I bash with all... To different extents.

And I don't even remember my point.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Dorganath on April 03, 2007, 08:15:50 pm
Quote from: twidget658
How often do the WL's and GM's use their xp wand to reward good RP? I believe that was one system that was introduced to reward good RP.

The wand has been used 602 times (i.e. used on 602 PCs) since it was introduced in September of 2006, and 441 times since the first of this year.  Many of these uses were by GMs but not all.

Regarding fears of overuse... The only point of this comment is to avoid someone favoring another character or characters with multiple, repeated hits in a short period of time.  There's no reason to fear its use, only its over-use, the conditions of which should be fairly obvious if one applies a little common sense to the situation.

That said, no one says a WL must use the wand.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: pejsaboy on April 03, 2007, 08:21:24 pm
Quote from: Pen N Popper

My only solution is the "free level per month."  Some will progress faster than that, but some of us will just RP/adventure as we are able and enjoy it.  Do you realize the disparity between leveling times right now?  There are players that know how to get to 20th level in four months!  We reward fast leveling inherently because everything that matters is level based.


There is indeed a disparity in leveling times. I've noticed a handful or two of characters that were started long after Gilli, and have exceeded him in levels in a much shorter time than he was able to gain the ones he does have. In roughly 7 1/2 months, Gilli has reached level 12. Like PnP stated, I've seen characters hit level 20 in less time than that. Is it frustrating? Sure. Can you do anything about it? Nope. Most of the time it doesn't bother me too much as I can rationalize that those people have far more time to play than I do.

I remember [somewhat] PnP's thread about the level per month idea. I don't remember exactly my opinion on the matter, but at this point I've only got one opinion on it: In my eyes the only way to make it fair across the board would be to get rid of all the other ways to gain xp. maybe except for crafting and the point of interest flags, as you don't get massive amounts of xp for them anyway.

Of course there will be arguments about that idea too, but it's not a suggestion I'm making. Just a thought I've had.

As far as the WL wands being used, I can only think of 1 event I was at where it was used by a WL. I assume that person doused everyone there, but still. One event that I can remember over the 9-10 months I've been on the server. *shrugs* just an observation, not a complaint.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Hellblazer on April 03, 2007, 08:21:50 pm
well its not all bad, I have had my shares of brick wall hitting at a hundred miles an hour on how to intertwine RP and combat. I found myself a good group of people and formed my guild with them. We like to have our shares of talk when we go out and RP between the battles, while we travel and such.

Also lately I have been given XP just for teaching the elven language to someone by making her roll for her pronunciation. There is always hope but I do have to agree, that unfortunately it is still mostly levels that will determine your place in this game.

Don't give up though

Quote from: Polak76
Us Corathites would have to be the slowest levelers on the server

would be just behind us Aeridinite;)
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on April 03, 2007, 08:28:06 pm
Good stuff here. And if my real life hadn't been/wasn't so unpredictable, I'd have tried to help the combat school along. I know you asked, and I sincerely wanted to be a part of it all, but I'm just having a hard time being consistent in-game these days. And as an aside, Pen, don't think of it as dead, only as delayed for a time.

Anywho, I agree with all you've said. You either have to make two quests a week (minimum 8 hour time commitment, two 4 hour blocks) or adventure (at least 8 hours like in the quests, two 4 hour blocks) in order to progress, and this for the reasons stated above by you and others. This is a video game. Too many diverse people play here to make subjectivity a considerable option. And levels determine progression. It's a numbers game and must always remain a numbers game if we want to maintain a level of objectivity.

Really, the best we can do (and this is exactly what the Layo team does) is provide an environment that supports and engenders RP. The rest is left up to the players. The Team can, in no way, rely on subjective judgments about what the players do. Subjective judgments can and are made about what the world will contain, what makes up the environment. Player actions, though, must be handled objectively, to maintain fairness and equality.

So, if you want to eventually be playing a World Leader character, you must put in the time requirements to either make quests or seriously adventure (and generally both). However, if your interest is in being a pie-sales(wo)man, the world, the environment, is such that you can play that role, without adventuring. You may never advance in adventuring (class) levels, but who cares? You sell pies. You borrow some start-up money from a rich aventurer, then you pay some other adventurers to go get you ingredients, then you hire a cook to bake the pies for you. Then you set up an outdoor venue like Koppig does to sell his home brews, and start making your fortune. Soon, you have enough money to payback your lender, hire more gatherers, etc. Eventually, you become the most famous pie seller in the world. Who knows. And you didn't even have to gain 1 adventuring XP or crafting XP to do it. Heck, you probably didn't even have to leave town. And there was lots of good RP bartering the deals, convincing the lender, etc. Then, maybe later you retire from selling pies and start adventuring, after you've made your fortune and fame. Or not.

The point of all this rambling is, as Pen N Popper's creedo states, the RP can be its own reward. But what RP? We usually only think of RP in terms of adventuring, because, really, we're pretty much all playing adventurers. The beauty of this world, I think, is that you don't ~have~ to play an adventurer if you don't want to. I would say most of us want to, though (I certainly do. If I could make money by robbing monsters in RL, you can bet I'd be doing it, =P ). We want to be heroes, villians, great swashbucklers, etc. And really, the whole numbers game (DnD, NWN system) is devised in such a way to represent progression as an adventurer. Not as a baker or even as a professional soldier. Only as an adventurer. What does this mean? It means that in order to progress, what do you have to do? Oh, right. Adventure. Killing monsters is part of your occupation (at least for the Layo adventurer).

So what does this all mean? It means that if you want to progress in level, that is, if you want to progress in your ~adventuring~ class, you must go out and adventure. If you don't want to adventure, then don't expect to progress as an adventurer. Does this mean your character is a "lesser" character? Not really. It means you're not adept at adventuring, but really, isn't there more to "life" than that? Revisiting Mr. Pie Seller. Let's assume in his pie selling business he establishes a lot of connections. Now, when Mr. Pie Seller retires, he buys himself a house, and then hides behind his reputation as a goodly pie seller to operate a thieves guild from his house, ammassing more riches for himself, and even power. Still, no adventuring XP, no crafting XP. Sure, by adventuring standards, he would never gain the title of "world leader," but that would not decrease his power, so long as he still had people to do his bidding. And you know what? If I so had the desire to play a character like this, I could have here on Layo. The means to do just this sort of thing is all here.

Now, as a final note, if you want to be an adventurer, and a powerful one, but don't have the time to put in adventuring, then I'm sorry, you're not going to be too happy here. However, if you're satisifed with not being an adventurer, then I'm happy to tell you that there are lots of other routes to go in the world of Layonara. Maybe even as a farmer one day..... someday... *ahem*

Anyways, a Suggestion: Play multiple characters, and don't have all of them be adventurers. So when you don't have a four hour block of time to put in adventuring or questing, you have other interesting and fun characters to turn to.

Okay, I'm done with my strange treatise. Thanks for getting me thinking about all this again, Pen.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Laldiien on April 03, 2007, 09:02:39 pm
Quote from: Pen N Popper
 There are players that know how to get to 20th level in four months!  We reward fast leveling inherently because everything that matters is level based.

                                       They may know, and they may grind their way to 20 in four months, but they won't make WL.  I know of one person that created her character in January.  She has passed me in levels.  Good for her.  If that's what she enjoys, yay for her.  When she goes to apply for WL, assuming she does, the team will look and go "Nope".  Meanwhile, I'll be plodding along.

I have one character.  One.  I do not play alts.  I devote all my time on Layo to the progression of one character.  As a result, I know him.  Ask him a question, and he will have an answer that is consistent with how I want him to be.  I had never RP'd anything before.  (That I can share here.)  I find that I like it.  I am not going down in history for it, but it amuses me and gives me something to look forward to.

I want Galen to be powerful.  I want him to be the life of the quest.  I want quests to revolve around him.  (Ok, I have a bit of an ego, shoot me for admitting it)  I want him to be able to look dragons in the eye and say "That the best you got?" and walk away from it.  Will it happen?  Not likely.  Is it something to strive for?  Yes.  

I will occasionally go out and grind with a very limited amount of RP.  Why?  Because sometimes it just feels good to beat things up.  Do I feel bad about it?  No.  Do I promise myself that I will RP that much harder later?  No.  Because I also derive a great deal of pleasure standing around on a quest and calmly talking.  Roleplaying a man who is in love with a woman and is devoted to his goddess.  Being a True Neutral cleric/sorcerer has actually taught me thing about my own personal alignment.

@Pen N Popper:  Not everything that matters is level based.  For a moment, thing of the most satisfying game play (this is still a game, designed for fun and amusement) that you have ever had.  Were you playing your Epic whatever?  Or were you playing Bumblebee?  Koppig?  I have not RP'd with them, but I know them.  Your RP has made you known to those you don't even see.  Tell me that isn't rewarding.  Tell me their isn't a part of you that takes some measure of satisfaction from the knowledge that your Roleplaying is talked about even when you aren't around.  That's the reward.  That's the goal.  You may never make World Leader based on levels, but they may as well hand you the happy stick, because you embody the spirit of the server.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Acacea on April 03, 2007, 09:08:00 pm
We know you'd spam it...we've seen the thanks button spam ;)

We meaning me, and the little people living in my head.

Again I object to the free level a month for all the reason stated previously, and again add that the only way I would see as a feasible method for rewarding a less-grindy-with-no-time-for-quests style is choosing which method you wish to gain XP from, combat or some amount for time-spent which would accumulate over time but receive no XP for kills, chosen at first level and non-toggled except -maybe- at significant level stages, turns off when idle, and with quest xp still trumping both. The idea is not to throw a bone to everyone but to be able to reward different play styles without giving everyone the benefit of both, which is the key problem, isn't it? Different play styles?

Anyway. To the main subject, I have always seen this topic as sort of backwards - when I joined, I liked that the organizers of some major PC events were of mixed levels. I liked that Acacea was one of the most well known ones for a time when she was only 7th, where people had heard of her even if they hadn't met her. I liked that Kali and several other storytellers were renowned and sought out and invited to places at low levels or mid levels, because of the events they attended and set up and the stories or songs they told. I liked that the Leilon Arms had a mixed level staff that had nothing to do with XP, but still became central to a lot of activities. If we wanted to rule the world through the liquor trade, hey we could do that without being epic, and that's what the server was about for me.

It's part of the reason why I stayed so long - I loved that. I guess the reason that it seems strange is that I enjoyed being a low level character and enjoyed hanging out with characters of all sorts. I never planned on her being epic, because I never went to any quests and her combat was rare. But she still collected all the rumors and talked to all the characters and sung silly songs making fun of paladins at the bar or played bartender at opening nights. I had fun.

I never actually saw too much benefit in being high-leveled...better equipment, harder monsters to use it on, entry onto high-level plot quests that I can't attend on weekends and are jam-packed anyway. Whoopedy doo! It was good for some characters, but mostly irrelevant to mine. Every encounter was development for her, and there was nothing that I could do as a high-level character that I could not do at the level I was at. Except just be a higher level. Wee. I liked that I could progress on many different roads without needing to go out and grind the adventuring road as well.

I think rewarding non-combat RP is good, I'm not disagreeing even though it sounds like it. It's just that the frequency and sometimes bitterness of the thought always sort of confuses me. I don't want to force any of my styles onto anyone else, or encourage the fact that so-called power-leveling makes its own reward, while the one we supposedly do encourage is unrewarding. I'd rather just be able to choose and leave it at that.

Supposedly its easy to ask, "doesn't anyone still enjoy doing these things at low-levels?" at level 25, but that was a later surge of almost completely non-combat RP, and I seriously miss her low level days when she had far more built up influence than she does now.

I still fully support finding a means to allow for the different playstyles, particularly when we have gods like Aeridin, I just think there are certain necessary parameters to it that few suggestions can meet.

As a side note to a comment in the original post, I've always thought a level limit on certain things, especially horses, to be kind of silly. :) They are primarily for non-combat roleplay, as you cannot really use them in battle, but if you roleplay out of combat too much you won't be able to buy one because you won't be a high enough level! On the other hand, considering the lag hit when they come onto the screen, maybe its better that way...hehe.

As well, I like more separation in my crafting and adventuring in games, probably because I've always been fond of full-out crafting classes - so I would be happier with a system that made it harder to progress adventuring wise as a crafter, but allowed high level crafting without high adventuring levels, taking level requirements off of doors... But! That would take more than just fixing a door, because you would have to prevent the reason for the requirement in the first place, or just not change it at all. The latter is a thousand times easier.

I guess I agree in several ways, but am just on some weird island of my own where I only see a few good methods of taking any of it on, or something. I just want to have fun.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Acacea on April 03, 2007, 09:09:22 pm
Quote from: Laldiien

@Pen N Popper:  Not everything that matters is level based.  For a moment, thing of the most satisfying game play (this is still a game, designed for fun and amusement) that you have ever had.  Were you playing your Epic whatever?  Or were you playing Bumblebee?  Koppig?  I have not RP'd with them, but I know them.  Your RP has made you known to those you don't even see.  Tell me that isn't rewarding.  Tell me their isn't a part of you that takes some measure of satisfaction from the knowledge that your Roleplaying is talked about even when you aren't around.  That's the reward.  That's the goal.  You may never make World Leader based on levels, but they may as well hand you the happy stick, because you embody the spirit of the server.


*Shifty.* I guess that's mostly what I meant, just a lot shorter and not taking an hour here and there to type. Ahem... *Slinks away from the thread.*
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: _M_O_B_ on April 03, 2007, 09:55:52 pm
Not a flame or anything, but we just need more roaming GMs. People would try and RP better if there was always a chance of getting a random XP drop.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Dorganath on April 03, 2007, 09:58:37 pm
There is such a chance.  GMs have used the WL XP reward item more than anyone.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: LynnJuniper on April 03, 2007, 10:03:16 pm
Quote from: _M_O_B_
Not a flame or anything, but we just need more roaming GMs. People would try and RP better if there was always a chance of getting a random XP drop.

See this gets into a sticky area for me. I don't RP for XP I RP for fun. In fact, I don't like being hit with the XP wand for doing something I'd do weather there was a reward or not...I'm sure others feel this way. Or perhaps Im missing the idea?
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Stephen_Zuckerman on April 03, 2007, 10:10:07 pm
This is for a sidebar in the discussion, revolving around the idea of Level-A-Month.

It's been suggested that the LaM thing be togglable at major levels... And that, of course, one wouldn't get any XP for killing things. One would get XP for DM quests, though, and for spontaneous RP XP handed out by DMs and WLs...

So. It occurred to me.

At level one, you get an item that you "Use", that sets whether or not you are going to progress via Adventuring or via LaM through a conversation. After that, you don't get another until level five, then ten, then fifteen, then twenty, and so on and so forth. (Though it could just be for blocks of ten levels, or whatever.) If you set that you'll get XP via Adventuring, it works just like it does, now. If you set that you'll get XP via LaM, then you keep the item (which affects XP as described below), but you're not allowed to A) enter the world or B) actually progress to the next level until you've gone through the convo. (Edit: Also, to prevent abuse, i.e. going Adventuring then selecting LaM late to accrue more XP, the convo would auto-set the character's XP to the start of whatever level, plus however much over the very last XP gain was.)

Let's assume you set LaM. Okay, so you don't get any XP from kills. Sure. But can't people still make loads of XP from crafting? Well... At lower crafting levels, sure! And in certain crafts, like Enchanting. So... How about eliminating getting Adventuring XP from crafting with LaM? XP would still accrue for the craft, but not as an Adventurer. Or, perhaps simply reduce it so that the character receives half the XP they would otherwise get from crafting. They would still receive XP normally from quests and WL/DM XP.

When their month was up, they're awarded the amount of XP that it would take them to progress from the start of their current level to the start of their next level. This could also, perhaps, be automated.

Now, let's take Eric the Generic Cleric. He chooses LaM at level one and spends a portion of every day making potions. Before a month has passed, Eric is level two in adventuring, just from Enchanting! But at the end of his first month, Eric still only gets enough XP to take him from level one to level two (I believe 2k XP). Six months later, Eric is level nine, as he's attended a few quests and stayed on the LaM track, not to mention continued in his Enchanting.

Let's compare this to Cronk, the Half-orc Monk. Now, Cronk chooses Adventuring at level one, and goes all the way with that. He earns XP just like everyone does, now, and stays just as active as Eric. But, depending on his activity, he could also be between levels 6 and 9.

The crux of this system is the assumption that the average career Adventurer makes enough XP in each calendar month to earn one character level.

----

EDIT, RE: Jess.

Myself, I love getting off-the-cuff XP. It's not that I'm looking for a reward when I'm RPing (other than the RP itself), it's that I enjoy the recognition. Honestly, I'd be just as fine getting 100 XP for a few minutes of solid in-character RP as 10,000 (though I'd always prefer 10k. Always. ;) ). It's the recognition that matters.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Eight-Bit on April 03, 2007, 10:18:57 pm
Quote from: _M_O_B_
Not a flame or anything, but we just need more roaming GMs. People would try and RP better if there was always a chance of getting a random XP drop.


I think there's almost 30 GMs on the team. It could be less. I can't remember. When I am on as a GM it's because I have nothing in my life at that moment keeping me occupied. My real life is what comes first and, if you ask me, should come first for everyone else. It's unhealthy not to think like that.

So while I do give out Xp for roleplaying, I won't do it all day. I wish it could be easier to get Xp through roleplaying. I feel it just the same as everyone else. I like to think I roleplay well and it is rare that a GM is able to be around to see it. GMs roam on their free time and asking us to be logged in for just that purpose doesn't seem right. Granted, we're here for the players, but we've got a lot of stuff to take care of before we can be.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Chongo on April 03, 2007, 10:20:07 pm
A few comments are degenerating into the overused 'faster then my pace = bad' sentiment, and while PnP's post did have a handful of classic emotions in this direction... I really don't think it's where he intends for this to go.  So do his thread some justice, and let's not walk the self-substantiation road of smacking a blue ribbon and gold sticker on everyone suffering from slow levelling.  It's a proven brick wall that just breeds negativity and finger pointing.

And right now, more then anything else, Layo needs positive vibes and positive action.  There are a lot of changes going on, and changes breed discomfort, no matter how excited you may be.

hmm... I just erased most of this because I don't think people want to read about psychology and positive instant consequence and video games.

So hopefully something more brief sums it up.  It's never going to be easy to gain momentum on non-spontaneous aspects of this game.  In particular scheduled events dealing with roleplay benefits, or un-schedule-able gatherings for roleplay since it's typically not something you can plan for.  And you're always going to have to make a HUGE sell no matter how excellent the market your selling to may be.  It's just not programmed in most people to look for these things.  And we all inherently take the easy track (as this is recreation):  log on and just play.

If a scripter comes up with a magnificent roleplay reward system, that's great.  But it has no unit of measurement and I think what folks will ultimately lament is that bringing measurement into roleplay will steal the ideal source of motivation for it.  Keep it natural for better and worse and it'll always count for something greater then pixels, numbers, and equations.

:( So that leaves you in your negativity pickel.  Why am I not rewarded, and why isn't there a loaded train for me to board for roleplay central?

:) And the answer, that I believe with some experience on most ends of this.... is that it's always going to take positive thinkers and motivated individuals to make the big sells.  To gather momentum for an event or a series of events.  And it's never going to be easy, and it's always going to be at their personal cost.  The cost of time, the cost of having to sell motivation for something that's not instantly rewarded.  The cost of having to 'market' an event that you know will do wondrous things for the community if you can just get them to latch onto it.

Never going to be easy.  And it's always going to burn out some people who get too discouraged by the lack of response.  Because it never ends and it's always going to come down on 'Mr. Positive of the Week' to keep things rolling.  Roleplayers come and go, GMs come and go... they just can't deal with having to market roleplay.  But hey bub, it's the way it is and you can't attach a value that people will instantly respond to with something so intangible.

It has always taken work, and always will.  And that's where the pride comes from.  Everybody takes their turn in keeping the atmosphere afloat and we survive as a roleplay server because of those doses of individual motivation.




*edit* This post is almost entirely geared towards the action vs. roleplay issues PnP brings up.  I have nothing to say regarding level per xx duration and would be hard pressed to care less.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on April 04, 2007, 12:30:41 am
I'm not sure people are understanding the ramifications of my previous post. The system that exists (XP, levels, classes, etc.) measures adventuring, not roleplaying. It cannot, and never will, be a measure of RP. I'll go even so far as to say it shouldn't be a measure of RP. Leaning on what Chongo laid out in his above post, trying to create an objective system to measure RP will ultimately be more limiting than useful.

Still, we try and fit DnD's (NWN's) adventuring system to RP, and obviously with various degrees of success and failure. Look at the quest system. It supposedly compensates characters for RP. But, as has been pointed out, characters are more or less involved in a quest depending on quest content and the character itself, yet the reward is the same across the board. In other words, Character A, lvl 10, is heavily involved in Quest X, while Character B, also lvl 10, is only mildly involved (for whatever reason, perhaps the nature of the quest doesn't require his immediate expertise), yet they both get the same XP reward at the end. How does this reward RP? I would argue it doesn't, nor does it need to. I would argue, instead, (even if this isn't the intent behind the creation of the quest system) that quest XP is compensation for the XP you could have gotten adventuring in the time it took to run the quest. It's sort of a big "thank you card" for spending your time fulfilling the GM's story as well as your own.

Again, where does this leave us? Simply put, the rewards for RP can never truly be XP, as leveling up, class abilities, etc, really have nothing to do with RP advancement, and everything to do with a character's advancement in their career of adventuring. XP rewards are nice, don't get me wrong, but they're fundamentally out of sync with the rewards of RP. XP is meant to, was designed to award excellent adventuring, not roleplaying. And by the same token, levels (as they are represented in the DnD sense) do not show a character's advancement in RP. It shows their advancement as adventurers. Handing out free levels is therefore a problem in that you will ultimately be rewarding characters with adventuring status, even if they haven't earned that status through actually adventuring. In essence, you're trying to use levels to represent a character's RP experience, and what I'm trying to point out is that doing so is fundamentally wrong. Not wrong in a moral sense, but wrong in the sense that, well, in that it doesn't make sense. Levels weren't meant to measure RP experience, and in essence, can't.

So, your ability to RP is not necessary to your ability to adventure, and vice-versa. Each develop at their own pace. They will have some influence on each other, but I doubt there's any true causal relationship.

This is a key thing to understand, and should help you realize that the greatest reward for RP you're ever going to get is someone else coming up to you and saying, "Thanks. I had a great time, and playing with you has been awesome. Rock on." It won't be, and can't be XP.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Polak76 on April 04, 2007, 02:59:54 am
How about this idea folks- 'Lets leave it alone!'

I've been on for three years or more now and in all that time we've had these discussion over and over.  At the end of the day a few people leave while a heap of people joined.  To me that sounds like this place does things right.

Secondly I'm not keen on working out ways to get people more xp faster.  I don't want to see every second person running around epic.  You've got to earn epic the long and arduous way, therefore it's more rewarding in the end.  I promise the minute we speed leveling in any manner we're going to get more people leaving.

Lastly with regards to the RP value, I'm with Lynjuniper here.  You're supposed to RP for fun, not cause you want XP.  If you get a bonus once every blue moon thats enough to say 'well done mate!'.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 04, 2007, 06:37:42 am
Just so I'm clear, I really, really, really don't have an issue with players that have the skills to get to 20th level in four months.  If I could, I would too.  I lament the fact that I have to adventure in too great a proportion of the time.  If I could gain 40k XP in a couple hours, I'd do that and then spend the rest of my copious playtime RPing.  Unfortunately, I don't have that skill set so I look for other ways to increase my RP enjoyment.

My "level a month" idea would benefit a good number of people, but it would still take fifteen months to get to level 20, not four.  If you can get there faster than that, good for you.  Seriously.  This idea is not to make more epics but instead to encourage more variety in playing styles.

My other ideas are more along the lines of, "Alright I'm not going to level any faster but perhaps there's some RP hierarchy we can form."  It's the alternate career track.  As someone said on IRC, "You don't need to be 20th level to be a general."  While that is perhaps true, you do need an army.  I have tried several times to get organisations going and not been successful in building a lasting environment.

And yes, I probably should just drop it.  Is this discussion harmful to the community at all?  I hope not, as that's certainly not my intention.  It's the exact opposite:  I want to find a way to keep the players that have a baby and still want to play a few hours a week and still advance.  I want to find a way to keep the players that get a new job and still want to invest their time and RP here with us.  I want to find a way so that in a year there are not more epic adventurers, but epic PCs in roles they want.

See you ingame.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: MJZ on April 04, 2007, 08:36:17 am
Pen, I have to say I agree with you completely. Many, many players have a limited amount of time they can devote to Layonara, and I am certain they would much rather spend this time roleplaying, than bashing monsters. Even those that have a lot of time to devote to playing - I know many of them would rather be busy at roleplay.

While GM events can be great, they don't give anywhere near the XP you would have attained from spending the same amount of time bashing. Not that I am saying quests should be all about XP! I'm simply stating that they can often be more about the RP, again, and this does not aid level progression - which is needed and necessary for even being able to visit some of the most fascinating places on Layo (or so I'm told!).

I think a level-a-month system would be a loverly benefit, just as you say. And I don't think it would be an imbalancing action, as you say, some people out there find their way to epic levels in far, far shorter a time.

One stipulation I see is that this would have to apply to only reasonably active players. Otherwise someone could be absent for a long time and ..poof!

And I guess it's assumed there would be a cap on this? Since you need a special quest to attain level 21, the free levels would end before then.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Kindo on April 04, 2007, 08:44:31 am
If everyone was given a free level per month, it would not make progression faster, but simply allow players who want to role-play to be able to do just that pretty much 100% of the time, rather than having to go out killing monsters in order to make their character become stronger. You could still progress faster if you went out hunting, so the decision is pretty much up to everyone to make themselves. A system like this would definitely benefit those who have other real-life duties to take care of, and who do not have those 6-8 hours per day to spend on monster-hunting.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: MJZ on April 04, 2007, 09:05:21 am
I also think it's fair to mention that while power-builds are meant to be discouraged, I think there are lots and lots of them out there. And when you try to make your character a little more RP-based, give some skill points, a feat or two, and some stat allocation into the RP elements of your character, what ends up happening is you just limit your "usefulness" to bashing parties. At least, this has been my experience. When this happens, bashing parties would rather fill your slot with someone more "useful" - obviously so, because they do want to survive better, after all. The problem here being, you get punished for trying to make a more RP character. As I've said, this has been my experience, and it made me re-think how to build my characters in the future. Which is unfortunate, I think.

So maybe another benefit of this proposal would be to help non-power-build characters out, and enable them to keep exploring new continents and new parts of the world.

Edit: I really should have posted this on the other thread... -.- forgive me


And another Edit: RP is fun. XP is fun, too! If there were no hope of getting past level one - wow. If there were no hope of RP - again, wow. People have this attitude as though asking for XP changes or further balancing is a greedy, immoral notion. It's not. I'd go on but I'd just be repeating Pen's words. :)
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: jrizz on April 04, 2007, 11:11:25 am
First off, there are great points in this whole thread. What I want to point out it that there is a reward system in place for good RP, it is called the WL. Now I know a PC has to be 20th level to apply (as well as many other reqs) and I think it is right to have that. Being 20th level shows you know how to use that PC and have dedicated time in honing your and your PCs skills. The reward is that you go from 20 to 21 (that is 3 million XP!). PnP if any one is WL worthy it is you. You just have to get a PC to 20th level, keep doing the things you do, keep a CDT (as I am sure you do) and you should have a great shot at the biggest RP reward Layo has to offer.
I am sure that you can come back with a reply about how you hardley ever see WLs around RPing (except for Ozy and a very few others) and how many of them are in clicks and how that goes against the whole WL idea. But that is not how you would be as a WL. I am sure you would be as present and accessible as Ozy. It really does not take that much effort to make 20th (unless you want to do it in 4 months LOL) it just takes time and dedication to one PC. That is part of the sacrifice that WLs make. While the rest of us have a bunch of PCs that we use to entertain ourselfs they focus almost completley on one. So PnP please go for it, I think you would be as shinning a light as a WL as you are a RPer.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on April 04, 2007, 11:23:16 am
**rubs forehead**

If you're not adventuring, you don't deserve adventuring levels. If you want RP "levels," you're going to have to devise your own system, so you can go up to people and say, "I'm a level 15 Role Player!." If that's what makes you feel better.

Handing a person an adventuring level for roleplay, as stated before, doesn't make sense. In fact, it's really not fair to give away free adventuring levels to people who don't adventure. It's like saying, "Look! You're now a master cake designer even though you've never even baked a cake in your entire life!"

And again, as I stated before, for those people that don't want to adventure, there are other occupational options. Adventuring is an occupation, just like farming, selling, fishing, or whatever other occupations you can think of.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: LynnJuniper on April 04, 2007, 11:52:04 am
Okay but if levels are based on adventuring why can't a world leader who has done world changing things not based on level (Kat's Foundation, Jennara's Roldem Donations, PnP's Whisper) Get WL? I can understand why adventuring = adventuring levels Milton, but..

Changing the world =/= adventuring levels
Riding a Horse =/= Adventuring Levels

Just to name a few.

To Edit this : I agree with the time Frame. A Few months for CN, More for Evil, a Year for WL. That much makes sense. I'm not 'flaming' anything or poking holes in a system, merely giving an opinion. People don't have to be able to cast 9th level spells or have 32 STR and Epic Feats to do something worth while in the world and have it recognized.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on April 04, 2007, 12:19:48 pm
Lynn,

As Acacea has said, why you have to be 15th lvl to buy a horse or above level 20 to be a world leader, I don't know. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but that's the decision of the Leanthar, and I'm always going to support him, whether I agree with everything or not. Though I would claim, as I pointed out earlier, that it's just another way in which we have tried to fit the adventuring system to account for roleplaying. The fit is awkward, and, in most cases, just plain doesn't work.

Time frames for applications to play a tiefer or be a WL are measures outside of the NWN system, and, correct me if I'm wrong, work under the assumption that given time in the world, people are going to progress in their ability as roleplayers. Really, this is an objective way to account for the disparities between experienced and less experienced RPers, giving those with less experience time to develop and make an impact, while at the same time keeping the more experienced RPers from "ruling" the world within a few weeks, heh. It's not a measure of RP, but a balancing system, and goes along with how the Team keeps the world as an inviting environment for RP.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: LynnJuniper on April 04, 2007, 12:25:03 pm
Alright Milton :) Now that that's understood, I am in perfect agreement with you on the matter of Adventuring = XP ;).
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: MJZ on April 04, 2007, 12:32:11 pm
I have to say the World Leader system is wonderful, and I'm very glad it's in place.

Talking about "RP levels", though.. while I do see the point made by Milton, I think that's undermining the reasons behind the suggestion in the first place. Gaining levels doesn't just help you kill things better - and also, while there are occupational paths, killing is still the backbone of all experience. It may be "adventuring" experience, but it's not "killing" experience - why do I receive XP for bringing someone scrolls, or a chair? It certainly shouldn't help increase my killing power! I don't think experience is as simply defined as that.

And my definition of RP isn't just chatting with a few friends in town. I think one of Pen's point was that he felt a limitation as to how far RP can get you, past chatting with friends. Occupations are RP - but you get 5xp for successfully cutting, and 7xp for polishing a gem at about 65% chance of success. So suggestions like LaM are being put forth.

Anyways. I have to agree I think Pen would make an amazing WL.


Edit: Ehh.. let me reword that. My mind is colours at the moment.

Killing is at the moment the backbone of gaining adventuring experience, and perhaps an implement like LaM or some other suggestion would assuage the problems this causes for players that can't devote many hours a day or a week to bashing, etc. Saying that RP shouldn't get you any XP I think is rather unfair - because that limits XP to killing, and it's not called "killing" experience, after all.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 04, 2007, 12:46:35 pm
I don't disagree with the current requirements for becoming a WL, and I certainly would not want to see the door opened up wide.  At a level a month, a new PC would reach 20th after 15 months.  That seems a reasonable amount of time to establish that PC as a WL through RP and deeds.

Can we stop talking about bakers and seamstresses?  What about the stealthy rogue?  How about a weapon master teaching at an academy?  How about a mage teaching potions?  What about a WL bard performing in the square?  These are all examples of skills directly applicable to the chosen "adventuring" class of the PC.

Are you honestly saying that someone RPing their PC as the adventurer he/she is is of less value to the world's immersion than someone that kills the same giant spawn for the 50th time?   Some find that fun.  Some don't.  Neither are wrong and I think this world is big enough to support and encourage both plus everything in between.

The legendary figure of Miyamoto Musashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi) fought but 60 duels.  The rest of the time you know what he was doing?  That's right, RPing his class.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: MJZ on April 04, 2007, 12:52:45 pm
Quote from: Pen N Popper
Can we stop talking about bakers and seamstresses?  What about the stealthy rogue?  How about a weapon master teaching at an academy?  How about a mage teaching potions?  What about a WL bard performing in the square?  These are all examples of skills directly applicable to the chosen "adventuring" class of the PC.

This is what I mean about RP being more than chatting, and also why it would be valid for something like LaM to exist, in accordance with the logic and meaning of "adventuring experience."
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Kindo on April 04, 2007, 12:55:52 pm
Quote from: Pen N Popper
I don't disagree with the current requirements for becoming a WL, and I certainly would not want to see the door opened up wide.  At a level a month, a new PC would reach 20th after 15 months.  That seems a reasonable amount of time to establish that PC as a WL through RP and deeds.
Yes, and of course the requirements for being accepted as a WL would still apply. A good, thorough CDT, some properly done CDQ's, and other in-game role-play factors. It needs to be someone who is still considered "worthy of being a leader" by the rest of the community, in an RP-sense.

Additionally, it makes no sense why the highly established person who is running a newspaper and leading an organisation for a long period of time, would not be meeting the requirements to be a WL. This person is obviously too busy to go out killing monsters for hours on end, and should he not still be given the opportunity to advance in levels at a reasonable rate, such as one level per month after level 10 or so? As Pen has mentioned already, it would still take fifteen months before that character would reach level 20, and that level could be reached quicker if you were simply grinding monsters all day long. Having characters receive one level per month would undoubtedly promote role-play, and actually remove much of the focus on monster-bashing that is currently in place.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: jrizz on April 04, 2007, 01:57:31 pm
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
**rubs forehead**
Handing a person an adventuring level for roleplay, as stated before, doesn't make sense. In fact, it's really not fair to give away free adventuring levels to people who don't adventure.


Is not that what is done with WLs. They work hard to qualify then they get a chance through a WLCDQ to "change the world" and if successful they get 3 million XP. I am sure that no matter how long a WLCDQ is it aint long enough to cover the amount of time needed to gain 3 million XP by adventuring. I wont even mention the amount of non WL track players that perm between 20 and 21. So it is a safe (but very hard due the amount of time needed to put into your CDT, being on many quests, getting known famous or infamous, and being a agent for change or events in the world) mostly RP way of getting 3 million XP.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Gunther on April 04, 2007, 02:36:19 pm
Theres a lot of interesting ideas in this post, and I'll admit right now that I dont have a solution to the XP for RP issue.

I dont however much like the concept of LaM.  Maybe its just pure self indulgence, but I played Gunther for almost two years before I made 20th level.  In all likelihood he'll never see 21st.  Thats fine.  He's not a WL kind of character.  He has difficulty tying his shoelaces.  Nonetheless, it was a lot of effort to get there.  Time and effort.  I'll be terribly sad when he finally croaks for good.  Would I be as attached to a character that baked pies and got a LaM.  I cant think that I would be.

In regard to being a fencing master or whatever, I have to respectfully disagree.  Being cloistered in a training hallway in no way prepares one for the real world.  Said fencing master would have to go out and adventure.  Make a name for himself to eventually attract students.  Learn himself how to defeat a beholder, so he might be able to at least train others in the concept of how to defeat a beholder.  Maybe neither here nor there, but i fenced for a number of years.  I got fairly good at it.  If I were now walking down Main St. and saw a beholder would I be able to fight it?  No, I'd mess myself and run away crying like a little girl.  Yes, there are a number of flaws in this analogy.  Feel free to pick them apart.  I enjoyed writing it anyway.

I think monster bashing is an integral part of gaining xp and being an adventurer.  A minimal amount of xp should be granted for baking pies and standing around Hlint chatting about how despondent you are that the love of your life ran away with a Battlehelm swamp troll.  Should someone eventually get to WL status for chatting about how much they now loath the vile and lascivious swamp trolls?  Man, I hope not.  If anybody even gets to 20th level without accruing some DTs, then they really havent been adventuring.  The name of the game is Dungeons and Dragons, not Commerce and Commiseration.

When it comes to PnP, I wish there was a better system for ya.  If anybody deserves it, you do.  However (and I wish I was a more diplomatic person), does coming up with a notable contribution(s) entitle one to a level?  I'd hope not.  Does it enhance layo and make it a better place?  Sure does.  And if my vote mattered, and if you were 20th level, I'd certainly vote for ya for WL status.

If I offended anyone, please know that I wrote this more less tongue in cheek.  My intent was not to offend and I apologize if I did so.  

By the way, Gunther'd be more than happy to meet a 20th level pie master.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on April 04, 2007, 03:19:15 pm
Alrighty.

First: As far as the Killing=XP issue, that has to do with how the system works, not "for what" the system is working. That is, experience per kill is one way (and perhaps the primary way) the system measures your advancement as an adventurer. It still has nothing to do with using a measure of adventuring status to represent RP status. Now, if you want to start a new thread indicating a way we can start measuring advancement as an adventurer other than through kills, by all means, do so. And there are other systems out there that do this. Unfortunatey not the DnD system built into NWN. There are other ways to gain XP, like NPC quests and even GM quests, but I do agree with you that killing is the backbone of XP for adventurers. I'm not saying I like this, but my point is, don't equate that to a measure of RP.

Second: PnP, let's take a look at a weaponmaster teaching at an academy. I'm assuming that what you are adressing is the notion of occupation, specifically in regard to separating "adventurer" as an occupation unto itself.

Now then, we'll have to start this discussion by recognizing some definitions. First, DnD (NWN) classes represent "skill sets," not occupations. These skill sets help to define a character's chosen path as an adventurer.
Second, we have to distuinguish between a "trade" and an "occupation." A person's occupation is their livelihood. In essence, it's how they survive. A trade, or tradeskill, on the other hand, is actually a complex set of skills that can be used to develop an occupation, or simply as a hobby, or to supplement an occupation. Craft Skills and many classes fall under this heading. You can have extraordinary cooking skills, but not actually make a living as a cook.

Returning to your idea of the weaponmaster teaching at an academy, you have to ask the question: What is his occupation? Teaching? Weaponmaster-ing? or Adventuring?  And it's easy to answer. What provides his/her livelihood? If all he does is teach at the academy, gets his pay from the headmaster, and never has the need to travel beyond his home city, then I'd say his occupation is teaching. If someone were to actually pay her enough money to live on to master a weapon, her occupation might actually be weaponmaster-ing. If, on the other hand, this weaponmaster makes his fortune traveling the lands, cutting up bandits and diving for treasure, his occupation is adventuring. In all cases, the character is using his tradeskill as a weaponmaster to advance an occupation.

So why say all this mumbo jombu, blah blah about occupations and trade skills? Because of this: It seems, PnP, that you make the point that a character using his/her skills in any situation somehow fulfills the requirements of the adventurering occupation. It, in fact, does not. Simply applying the skills of your class does not constitute adventuring.

Third: Disregarding the "spawn factor" inherent to the nature of the video game, killing 50 groups of monsters is, to an adventurer, equivalent to baking 50 groups of cupcakes to a baker. Both are requirements of the occupation.
Again, let me point out, this has nothing to do with RP advancment.

--------------

Alright, the next question is how the heck is a system that's supposed to and desgned to measure advancement in an occupation (adventuring), actually translate to increasing your ability in some given trade skill (mage, fighter, rogue)? Well, I can lay out the idea behind its structure, and then you can decide whether it really accomplishes what it (the system) sets out to do. Basically, the system assumes that as you adventure, you use the skills related to your trade skill (class) to survive. In doing so, as you get better at adventuring, you also get better at your class abilities, since you were constantly using them so survive.  This then should lead you to understand why the choice of classes that we have exist, and why they're called "adventuring classes." These particular trade skills lend themselves in some strong way to adventuring. Baking, selling dresses, and the like can contribute to adventuring, but in general they don't have a serious impact on the survival of an adventurer.

Again, to clarify, DnD's system for adventuring advancement only includes the classes (trade skills) it thinks applies most directly to adventuring. NWN doesn't have these, but the NPC classes in Pen and Paper DND are supposed to account for tradeskill advancement outside of adventuring classes.

Finally, it can be argued what exactly defines the occupation of adventuring. Is a rogue working for a thieves guild an adventurer? Is a paladin in service to his church an adventurer? I think the only way to answer these questions is to go back to the definition of an occupation itself. What provides the character his primary livelihood? Is it the church that offers room and board in exchange for fighting evil? Or is it the occasional magic item you gank off a dead cave dweller and sell to pay for your next night's stay at the inn?
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 04, 2007, 03:48:38 pm
I don't disagree with anything miltonyorkcastle has said.  I do think there is room for opinion around it, but it's not inherently wrong in my opinion.

Perhaps if I put my premise in different terms it will be clearer.

Do we want academy instructors, singing bards, and even bakers in Layonara?

This is the meat of my thinking.  You see, I do want them.  I want players to be able to pick a career path where they can decide the balance of RP to killing.  

Some may want to rush up to 10th level in two months.  It would still be four months more before they'd get a free bump to 11th level (expected to be 5th level at end of first month for free bump to 6th level, 7th after month two, 8th at three, 9th at four, bump to 10th at end of month five, and finally bump to 11th at end of month six).  In all likelyhood, most players will be ahead of the curve into the teen levels.  Afterall, most of us do like some percent of our RP/action ratio to be action.

With all the strict criteria for getting the free level (as per my other thread), some may opt not to do it at all.  But if you hit 14th level and decide that killing 620k XP worth of monsters is just eating up way too much of your RP time, take a breather.  Add some depth to your PC's life.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Polak76 on April 04, 2007, 07:56:37 pm
"The name of the game is Dungeons and Dragons, not Commerce and Commiseration." - Now thats got to be the Line of the Post!  Thanks Gunther!  Until reading that I've had a terrible morning with almost no sleep due to an irrate baby, have been overburdened with hundreds of issues here at work and have been further frustrated with what I'm reading on this post, then you come up with this absolute pearler (pearler - aussie term for top stuff!)

You've summed it up well.  If we start doing this Level a Month nonsense I'll feel sorry for all those people like yourself that have spent what seems like eons getting to level 20, dodging the soul mother in all her glory and all those late nights adventuring.

Where is it written that we need XP to enjoy RP.  In essence what we are discussing here is gaining levels by sitting around talking about whatever.  If what you want to do is make cakes, or teach scribing, you dont need to get to level 20.  So why then do you need XP?  A well known Arch Mage makes his place in the world by confronting dangers more often that one can believe.  The worlds best swordsman slays countless demons, wins endless battles and survives the soul mother's cold grasp to reach the top.  He doesn't get there by reading books on tactics and formations whilst practising on dummies and talking about it.

All in all the place aint broke so don't fix it.  I certainly know Leanthar has more patience than me.  I'd be half considering pulling the plug by now.
Anyway we're all guests here and should enjoy what we got rather than knit-pick over details and try to make it suit our own desires.

Anyway should it happen that a level per month is implemented I won't complain.  I'll make four characters and have them all at level 20 in 15 months.  Hell, why don't i make another account and make it eight characters.  I have this feeling it will ahve the opposite effect you all intend.  I'm not sure who the rest of you hang around with on Layo but the people I Rp with enjoy a nice balance of both RP and Action and we're having a ball.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: AeonBlues on April 04, 2007, 08:17:08 pm
Quote from: MJZ

And I guess it's assumed there would be a cap on this? Since you need a special quest to attain level 21, the free levels would end before then.


Is this still true?  While I have not seen any post stating that no quest is required to make epic levels, the term ECDQ, has been completely removed from our forums.

Perhaps this should be posted under "Ask a DM" but I am under the impression that no special quest is required to make epic levels now.

Further more, Leanthar writes the following in  his post What does it take to be a World Leader?

"• There is an XP barrier at level 20 that will require all non World Leaders to work through via quests and killing creatures. All World Leaders will be given enough XP to jump them over that barrier at the completion of their WLDQ—whatever level that may be completed at. That is a major benefit, along with the item reward for completing the WLDQ as well as the ability to support and aid the community once becoming a World Leader. The XP barrier can still be worked through by any player (or character) not desiring to become a World Leader. This means that everybody can level up to the max level allowed in Layonara, regardless of being a World Leader or not. •"


AeonBlues
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Gunther on April 04, 2007, 08:22:48 pm
I believe you no longer need the ECDQ to get 21st.  However, you do have to toil through an obscene amount of xp to get there without it.  And if you're an ECL3, then good luck.  Hahahahahahhaha.  Wait a minute....
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Kindo on April 04, 2007, 09:12:32 pm
Quote from: Pen N Popper
But if you hit 14th level and decide that killing 620k XP worth of monsters is just eating up way too much of your RP time, take a breather. Add some depth to your PC's life.
Truer words have never been spoken. Players should definitely, without a doubt, be given this option. Adding depth to a PC's life... It's not something that can be easily done during war parties, fighting for days on end to gain those hundreds of thousands (or millions) XP.

I will say it again: a system like this would definitely promote more role-play and take some weight off the current focus on monster-bashing. The bashing of monsters will still be there, and still prove a "quicker" way of gaining your levels, but if these proposed changes go through, then at least we will have a choice, and choice is exactly what defines an on-line multi-player role-playing game. At least in my opinion.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Skywatcher on April 04, 2007, 09:27:06 pm
I have to say that I really dislike the idea of level per month on a number of levels.  It sounds like getting something for nothing which is against one of the guiding principles of Layonara.  Would anyone think it was ok to put a character on a level per month plan for crafting?  All of the same arguements could be made in reverse that if I want my character to adventure a lot but still be a great weapon maker then I could spend all of my time adventuring and sign up for the level a month plan in weapon crafting.  That wouldn't make sense either to me, again something for nothing.  It seems to me that the real issue is one of balance and everything in moderation.  Everyone makes choices about how to spend their time on Layo.  I am personally amazed at how flexible the world is in this regard.  Each player can choose to adventure or craft or sit around and talk or quest or make something up.  RP is broader than just talking or emoting.  It is everything that a character does.  Layo allows us all to have fun within limits and I really apreciate that.  I have great respect for people who choose to spend all of their time here having fun talking to people and walking around seeing sights.  I also have great respect for people who choose to spend their time adventuring and don't desire much social interaction.  As Milton said Layo is an RP world using DnD and NWN so that means you can do both Pure RP and Pure DnD if you chose.  I think we just need to let each other have fun the way we choose to and work within the system that we all sign up for when we join.  The team is great here and have thought these issues through much more than I can imagine.  At this stage having had NWN around for so long and used it for the Layo world I think they have refined the system to a razor's edge and although there are still improvements coming the basic operations of leveling and character development seem pretty well set and based on sound reasoning.  Anyway that's my 2 trues.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Stephen_Zuckerman on April 04, 2007, 09:31:15 pm
Allow me to interject with my own little comment.

I like the idea of LaM on quite a few levels, but don't disagree with those who don't like it. The points are good on either side of the board.

I just like coming up with systems that could possibly work; thus, the quick thing I whipped up.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: _M_O_B_ on April 04, 2007, 09:36:19 pm
I still think it is funny that wizards HAVE to kill things to learn new spells, druids have to kill things to get more in touch with nature, rogues have to kill things to get better at picking locks, etc.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pseudonym on April 04, 2007, 09:45:24 pm
Just a thought.
I am personally against a planned level progression.
I do, however, find this nn interesting and worthy discussion and a personal thanks to Pen N Popper for his ongoing concerns and thoughts on how to improve the community.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Gunther on April 04, 2007, 10:22:16 pm
The current crafting system seems to work just fine for Gunther.  I've turned to it time and again when I cant stand the thought of mindlessly hacking down another fuzzy woodland critter for their 1xp.  Even though its fun to irritate Drogo (it was more fun when he didnt speak common), you can only eviscerate so many bunnies before it gets old.

For awhile I even turned it into a smelting business, supplying ingots to people.  And I made some armor for folks and the occasional weapon.  Crafting is entertaining in its own right and I think the current system works just fine.

I've done the mindless hacking apart of critters and the toilsome mining and crafting.  Enjoyed them both until I couldnt stand either.  Then I take a break for a few weeks or so.  Always seem to come back though.  Layo is like sweet, sweet crack.  You cant escape it.

I say it again.  Crack.

Layocrack.  You didnt shower today.  You just played Layo.  You might not shower tomorrow either.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: stragen on April 04, 2007, 10:25:09 pm
I would like to thank PnP for his commitment to this world, and creating great characters that interact with others.  Every time I bump into one of his characters it makes me strive to improve my own characterisation and acting.

PnP the rewards for your great roleplay are
(1) Respect in the community for the effort and
(2) Stronger reactions to you characters by other characters when the interact.

This is the reward for roleplay.

I agree with miltonyorkcastle that reward for adventuring (and questing) is more  adventuring levels.

Personally I find this game is dull if there is no-one else around to interact with.  Either adventuring or roleplay.  But if you can get a few people together then it's great.  Don't be afraid to send a tell to others (me) asking if they want to roleplay or adventure with you.  Yes tells are OCC.  But there no point waiting around Prantz or Hempstead or Vehl if there are no characters about hoping to get some roleplay or adventure when they arrive.  Send a tell to find out where they are, then arrange to bump into them.  Our time as real people is too precious to be wasted not having fun in a game.  Its a computer game!  Its supposed to be fun!

Cheers,

Stragen
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Polak76 on April 05, 2007, 01:42:06 am
Quote from: _M_O_B_
I still think it is funny that wizards HAVE to kill things to learn new spells, druids have to kill things to get more in touch with nature, rogues have to kill things to get better at picking locks, etc.


I find it even more amusing if people hang about talking and gaining xp then take Weapon focus or power attack when it comes to feat time or tumble and heal with regards to skills.  Or a rogue who has never once opened a lock yet has an extremely high lockpicking skill.

Anyway we already have a system for getting xp rather than hacking n slashing.  Its called GM quests.
The only thing i object to is taking away xp for CDQ's.  Rather than taking it away they should simply restrict people gaining too much/mth.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Weeblie on April 05, 2007, 03:20:20 am
Quote from: Polak76
Anyway should it happen that a level per month is implemented I won't complain.  I'll make four characters and have them all at level 20 in 15 months.  Hell, why don't i make another account and make it eight characters.  I have this feeling it will ahve the opposite effect you all intend.  I'm not sure who the rest of you hang around with on Layo but the people I Rp with enjoy a nice balance of both RP and Action and we're having a ball.


Right on spot (even true in case you put a max 1 character under the level-a-month system/account AND even if a minimum of 1 hour logged in/day-rule is present).

Myself? I'm not overly fond of going out somewhere to kill something, yet adventuring trips is something that I do go on a little now and then (say... once each or each other week). Quests comes in waves. Before, I regulary went on 1 quest/week but for the moment, I'm down to something like... 0.5 quest/month.

Does it bother me? Nope! Not the slighest. Been here 16 month or so, reached level 17 which is probably slower than most. Yet, feeling that my character has superior history compared to many PCs exceeding/equal her in pure game-mechanic levels.

Most epics know her (not only by name). Many mid-level characters know her. Some low level character know her also (Granted, those are becomming fewer due to the fact that low-level characters are not staying at low levels for so long if one's not intentionally putting one's PC on a bench in Hempstead!).

Knowing that my character has a higher "level" than many others, although not measureable and not shown on the character-page, keeps me all happy and content with how she is! I would never, ever even thinking about trading that for pure game-mechanic levels.

Edit: Oh... last words... Yes, I believe I have found a balance between sitting in Hempstead and going on trips that suits myself perfectly. :)
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: DMOE on April 05, 2007, 03:41:48 am
Quote from: Kindo
Truer words have never been spoken. Players should definitely, without a doubt, be given this option. Adding depth to a PC's life... It's not something that can be easily done during war parties, fighting for days on end to gain those hundreds of thousands (or millions) XP.

I will say it again: a system like this would definitely promote more role-play and take some weight off the current focus on monster-bashing. The bashing of monsters will still be there, and still prove a "quicker" way of gaining your levels, but if these proposed changes go through, then at least we will have a choice, and choice is exactly what defines an on-line multi-player role-playing game. At least in my opinion.


Not meaning to be adversarial but I managed to get lot of depth into my main characters life in the just over a year it took her to reach lvl 20 under the present system.  I am presently adding depth into my second characters life in her progression up the levels.

I think one of the greatest compliments I received was when my second character hit lvl 9 and someone commented "not bad for a primarily RP character"

RP is what you make it.  The pressure to level is what YOU make it.

While I am not saying that a system to reward RP in someway would not be welcome.  I am totally against the 'free level a month'.

If you want time to develop your character's RP without the pressure to bash....Guess what?  Don't bash.  No one but you puts pressure on yourself to level quickly and many, many people have coped with the systems as it stands.

You've managed to reach 15th level in less than 3 months...complete credit to you if that's how you wish to play....Both of my characters have sat waiting to gain just one level in 3 months.  If you want time to develop your character, then I suggest you take the time to do that and accept you level more slowly for it.....Like the rest of us did.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Hellblazer on April 05, 2007, 04:05:13 am
Or you can do both. Development of a character should be started even before your character would appear on layo, know his background, his affinities, how he would react to different situation etc. What happens here after that is how you want others to perceive your character. True some events and RP with some people will mold your char in different aspect that you didn't even intend. But most of it is or should be done before you type in your first words.

An example of this would be my latest char. It took me 6 month to think of him, granted 6 month ago, he wouldn't have been approved due to age. But still, I took those 6 month to think of him, his responses, his likings and dislikes, how I would build him, what he would look like (things changed with time on his looks) this is all part of character development, and of course having  the world changing even before he was on it had its effect too.

There can be a balance between RP and adventuring, its just a hard one to maintain at times.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Joyrock on June 24, 2007, 06:46:08 pm
I have faced the same problem as well as many of my friends, to the point we shamelessly call Layo WoW because that what it feels like. Even WoW has RP servers, and you get about the same amount there as here, due to the mass rush for XP.

TO be honest there just not enough conflict of intrest here, a CvC was added to fix this but never been used because to put it simple a standard has been brain washed into everyone to NEVER use it even for RP, turning something added to add RP into a useless tool, due to fear of being looked down on in the eyes of players and DM's, and possibly even being banned for fear you made a mistake. :S

I find in many ways layo is a victim of it's standards, but that a tale for another time.

The best method I can think of to fit layo, would be RP tokens that increase the XP gained from monsters yu kill by 25% a token. Being I have seen the amount of Rp one must do to get a RP reward it pretty rare, so you have to make a system that makes up for the amount of time.

Last time I got a reward was after 4 hours of RP and was 310ish of XP I am guessing 3% of the Xp needed to level or around there. If that the amount used then well then I need 30 such XP rewards to level at a avg of 4 hours each that 120 hours.

the thing about the 25% tokens that stack is this. it will take you 6 days to level that is 144 hours. Now you use these RP tokens, make them RP rewards only handed out from a DM ghosting players and finding non DM related RP, and reward it. you get 4 of these tokens which take you about 2 days lets say well that half's the time needed gathering XP through farming. coming out to 72 hours needed if you stop gather RP tokens at that point. which in turns comes out to 3 days + the 2 you spent RPing to get the tokens comes out to 5 days instead of 6. making leveling through RP the better way to level then just monster bash farming.:)


For high level chars that would take 288 hours to level (12 days) 4 tokens would only take 6 days.

There no fool proof system, but this one does work when used properly.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on June 24, 2007, 06:53:27 pm
**shakes head** mixing adventuring XP with RP experience.... I think I wrote a treatise on that topic... now where did I put it... **looks up** oh, right....
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Joyrock on June 24, 2007, 07:21:12 pm
Well the thing is adventuring is really the only real way to gain XP. We don't have a problem with people adventuring, I would say more adventuring goes on then RP.

the problem is how to get RP to = to the same IG rewards, as Leveling? you can't really if you use some methods used like the one that gives your char XP over time, folks just leave there char logged in, if you use the one that picks up on emotes, well you just spam.

if RPing ever has a method that is easier and better then XP farming you will see a lack of Monster farming thus removing a part of the server a huge part from it. since you have a world mixed with RP, and action. you must mix the RP rewards.

not only does it balance it out but it also makes RP logic, your fighter still gains fighter levels from killing things like he should he just found a way to get fast at learning by perhaps using advice given to him that he learned while RPing, or some other insight.

Mixing RP rewards with bashing just takes away some of the pain of monster bashing from the Rper's, and those that just love to monster bash lose nothing. find your find your treatise on it, and give me something to counter. because just saying Ehh does not fix problems.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on June 24, 2007, 07:43:43 pm
The treatise is in this thread, comprised really of several replies. Just scroll up.

And you're right. People want IG rewards for RP, and many, perhaps like yourself, want it to equal something like "Level-ing."

However, while we have an objective (objective meaning pre-defined and governed by a set of rules) way to measure advancement as an adventurer, we don't have an objective way to measure advancement in RP. What you're suggesting is to try and marry the adventuring advancement system with RP advancement. That's like taking an apple and an orange, cutting each in half, then putting half the apple with half the orange, taping them together and saying you have a new piece of fruit. The two just don't jive.

You should not get adventuring levels for roleplay. You should get adventuring levels for, well, adventuring.

As I've said before, if you want to create a separate system that will objectively measure RP advancement, by all means, go for it. Maybe enough people will agree with your standards, and it'll be implemented somewhere. Then people can say, "Hey, look. I'm a level 12 fighter and a level 22 roleplayer." Or something like that.

Really, though, good luck on laying out objective, common-ground guidelines that define someone's level of RP-maturity. As it stands, deciding who is and who isn't a good roleplayer is purely subjective. Which is why squishing a measure of roleplay in with DnD's measure for adventuring doesn't work well. One is subjective, and the other is objective.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Joyrock on June 24, 2007, 11:54:50 pm
I have actually gotten Adventuring XP for RPing. As well I like to drink banana strawberry. THere have been a few fruits actually made by mixing fruits and they create new fruits but that is pointless. What your suggesting is not making this a RP server, because if RP is something you came, you have to have something with them to counter balance against those that Get everything not by RPing, but bashing monsters on heads, it make little logic that because you bashed 10,000 monster on the head some where in that lift club, bash, repeat you fell into a deep state of mind and learned how to ride a horse, craft better gear, or collect information. While while you can't gain levels through RP you can stil lgain things that help you get more XP when you bash monsters. You still need to bash monsters.

Thing is why should you not gain some form of XP from RPing? after all life changing events that great new found wisdom happen more there then bashing monsters.

You can gain RP related things, like access to the craft hall, horses, but more importantly Skill points. RP related things through monster bashing, this should not be related but it is. WHY would you learn how to gather information from bashing a monster on the head, rather then doing something that RP's putting that skill to use?

the problem is one grants both adventure rewards and RP skills, while RP has no way to gather skill points to use in RP. We all might as well just bash monsters all day, so we can level so we can be important enough to gain access, attention to RP, or to back up the RP.

You don't have a RP Server here you have a action/RP server. but it really on catters to one side of that. Would'nt it be nice if it cattered to both? It not like RPers will sudden jump and pass you in levels. An it not as if they won't have to go out and level.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Interia_Discordius on June 25, 2007, 12:08:18 am
Ravenloft rewards RP on the amount of text and lines you enter in every channel but DM and Tells, I think... Nifty, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pseudonym on June 25, 2007, 12:18:27 am
Yeah, but as Orth said way back when;

Quote from: orth

I once considered a system that simply coded the amount you're typing, whether it's emotes or talking or such, roleplay for the most part doesn't happen unless you're typing something, but I couldn't think of ways to prevent it being abused.


Could I trust myself?? I'd cut and paste my way to level 30 in a month!!

Honest person: "Look, a duck!" receives 3xp
Me: "Yes, my very puissantly observant companion, I do believe it is. We must now seriously consider the very real possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands!" receives 34xp

Edit: That's a joke, but you get my point! :)
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Acacea on June 25, 2007, 01:48:47 am
Yea, I'd talk my way to epic fighter pretty fast. ;) And Acacea's level 26, think where she'd be at... *snickers*
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Weeblie on June 25, 2007, 05:36:55 am
... (1 XP)

:p
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Interia_Discordius on June 25, 2007, 09:17:06 am
I still remember having an interesting RP exchange when Nathaniel and Kinai made a few trades etc, and being rewarded exp for that. I felt like a little girl on Christmas Eve. If text lines vs exp given doesn't work, then why not just "give a cookie" of exp as a GM every now and then? I feel there's so much good RP that  goes unrewarded, and I don't mean just me. Sometimes I just sit at the pond of Hempstead in stealth mode and listen to each unique conversation that goes from discussing the day to sharing a life story and contemplating the meaning of life and good and evil.

What I like even more is finding a group just talking in the middle of nowhere after some bashing and listening to that too. Something about risking your lives constantly with people seems to make them spill the good stuff.

I just think that, to avoid problems like this, even a little exp goes a long way. It's not the amount as much as yes, you're being watched (not in the creepy way), and your efforts to make interesting roleplay aren't useless/misplaced/misguided/whatever. Just gives a warm, fuzzy feeling that the GMs care ;) Not implying that they don't.

Overall, yes, it can be said roleplay is meant to be and you shouldn't "reward" people or not reward people on something they have to do, or the argument comes up that how can you tell between good and bad roleplay (as it isn't really our judgment on good/bad if the person is trying their best... Not all of us are English speakers and such after all :) ), so I think maybe people who sit around Hempstead for literal days at a time or just spend hours in one spot or a few with the same people roleplaying can be rewarded.

Again, a little cookie goes a long way.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: LordCove on June 25, 2007, 09:28:05 am
I'm agreeing with the above.....the amount doesn't really matter. Just the fact that you get " Hey! I just got hit with the RP wand! Wo hooo!"

I'd been experimenting with a Druid, prodding people, badgering them for help and being generally "non-Sall like" in Hempstead. I was over the bloody moon to see the "awarded RP XP" jump on the screen.
It didn't do much for my XP....but by gods I felt happier about getting it.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: DMOE on June 25, 2007, 09:40:47 am
Quote from: Interia_Discordius
I still remember having an interesting RP exchange when Nathaniel and Kinai made a few trades etc, and being rewarded exp for that. I felt like a little girl on Christmas Eve. If text lines vs exp given doesn't work, then why not just "give a cookie" of exp as a GM every now and then? I feel there's so much good RP that  goes unrewarded, and I don't mean just me. Sometimes I just sit at the pond of Hempstead in stealth mode and listen to each unique conversation that goes from discussing the day to sharing a life story and contemplating the meaning of life and good and evil.


As I understand it and have experienced it this is exactly what DM's do....WHEN they are on server to see it.  I'm sure any DM would tell you that if they are lurking on server and 'see' good RP they will reward it.

The unfortunate problem of not 'paying' our DM's is that they are volunteers who give what time they can and often work on other Layo projects too so therefore we don't have DM's lurking on server 24/7 to watch peoples RP.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Pseudonym on June 25, 2007, 09:44:38 am
Heheh. That xp was from me Stephen!! And it was from me for you Int D as well! I know the system is not perfect, sometimes you'll get witnessed, sometimes not. Sometimes you'll get witnessed but not rewarded ... I hope that Xmas eve feeling sees you through until next time I am up stupid-late or you up ridiculously early and I might catch you again! Keep up the RP in the meantime!

@LordCove, if only I had of known it was you behind that character, no xp for you!! .... heh, just kidding. Or, am I? No, really, just kidding! Or ... am I?

*shifty eyes*
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: Interia_Discordius on June 25, 2007, 09:48:18 am
If lack of time on the GM's part is the issue, I think the new wave of them from the applications will do us well.
Title: Re: Confessions of an RPer
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on June 25, 2007, 10:36:39 am
Apparently I'm a rare breed. I *gasp* don't like to get XP for RP that isn't related to adventuring. I like to get XP, sure. I like to get rewarded for RP, even. And if you really want to push it, you could even say that everything you do could tie in to your character being an adventurer. We could probably argue that all day.

My point is, I don't want XP for having an in-depth conversation about, say, life and love, or how bitter my favorite ale tastes, etc. Sure, it helps develop my character's view of life, it's likely even good RP. But it doesn't mean squat to my character's occupation as an adventurer and therefore doesn't merit XP. Not adventuring XP, anyways. It could merit "RP XP," or something, if such a thing existed.

On the other hand, if I'm playing a fighter, say, and I'm searching through a corridor and step on a trap, get zapped, then think, "Hmm, maybe there are more traps down this corridor," and my character picks up a few rocks and tosses them the length of the corridor which promptly sets off a series of other traps, then I would consider that worthy of adventuring XP because my character used his experiential knowledge and skills to survive part of an adventure.

Give me adventuring XP for adventuring. I don't want or need adventuring XP for RP. The creation of a subtle story and complicated characters are the rewards I get, the rewards I want for RP. I don't want levels for RP. Let me repeat, I don't want levels for RP. Sorry.

Also, if you're playing in a DnD world, it will always be "action/RP." Why? Because the player characters are all adventurers. And adventurers are all about action. If you want RP without action, find (or design) some online version of the Sims, or Animal Crossing where you all you do is farm, fish, and design clothes and houses. You can still develop characters, create interesting stories-- RP will rule!-- but you won't get a lot of action. People that claim to have "RP only" (a.k.a. low action) DnD worlds are fooling themselves.