Confessions of an RPer

[Pen N Popper]

I have made (too) many posts over the past months regarding tring to find a balance between gaining XP and levels versus RP. My stubborn disbelief of reality has caused me to continue this fruitless endeavor.  Slowly, though, it is dawning on me that I am simply a freshwater fish swimming in the salty ocean.  Other similar fish have either expired or adapted.

While Layonara is not an RP server, but an RP Action server, I always stood firmly that RP came first. I began to see, though, that there was no progression available purely through RP.  One attained levels by adventuring.  Levels, being the core mechanic of NWN, determined ones place in Layonara:  WLs must be 20th level to even apply, horses are not acquired until mid-teen levels, large chests and housing portals cannot be placed at low levels, the advanced crafting hall is 10th level to even enter.  All these things point out quite clearly that levels are the path we players must toe.  Gaining XP through adventure is not "a necessary evil," as I often told myself, but the actual goal of the world.  We are rewarded not for RP, but our success as adventurers.

I stubbornly refused to believe that this was the case.  Surely committed RP and stellar devotion to cause and character would yield similar reward.  Slowly, though, I digressed from my personal standards of "RP always" and interspersed it with combat runs through areas:  Traversing up and down Haven for no other purpose than to gain XP.  Racing across Dregar behind higher levels or with large groups.  Worst of all, loitering in empty Pranzis for hours because I was afraid as soon as I went West for some RP, a party would show up on central and I'd miss the XP.

Is any of this bad? No, not at all. Layonara dictates that our PCs be adventurers more often than commoners. It is always our own choice, of course, to pick between a long RP session as a newsletter writer versus a rogue archer.  Depending on the degree to which you believe that "RP is its own reward," your balance will be different.  Personally, in a level based world like Layonara I continually find myself struggling to find this balance.

Why?  I don't find mindless XP gathering at all immersive.  I like combat tactics, ambushes, campfires, and ale.  I also like feeling successful and that, for me on Layonara, means gaining levels.  There is no other career path.  Making a successful brownie newsletter writer was a challenge and rewarding in itself, but only up to a point.  No amount of fame or RL time will let a 9th level PC become a WL, own a horse, or get better at a Gather Information skill.

I have taken breaks from Layonara in the past, not long ones to be sure.  I enjoy the server aspects tremendously here:  The courteous staff, LORE and letter systems, parchment and quest chests, forums and gallery, and the nonsensical chatter on IRC.  Not to mention the time invested here getting to know those systems and the personalities of the world.  It's unlikely that I'll completely give up trying to find what I'm looking for here.  Would I leave if I found a server more in line with my playing style? Yes.  Do I really think that will happen? No.  Are you stuck with me? Looks that way.

I'm a guest in this salty pond so I ought stop trying to take out the flavor and just enjoy the taste.

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

Brave, very brave.
No two cents from myself, just thought I’d applaud that bit of bravery.

[orth]

If you have a concrete means to code a system that would reward the grey area of RP or can point to some of those posts, we'll try our best to achieve a reward for RP.  We've banged our heads over it for some time.

I once considered a system that simply coded the amount you're typing, whether it's emotes or talking or such, roleplay for the most part doesn't happen unless you're typing something, but I couldn't think of ways to prevent it being abused. Maybe Nibor willb e up for revisiting this.

The truth of the matter is RP is 95% of the time rewarded with quests.  Yet even if you don't roleplay on quests you usually still get your XP.  If you can't make quests then you're in trouble.  Which you seem to always have been lamenting.

The only other way I can think of to continually reward roleplay with experience points is have 100 DMs and always a presence in the world.

I'll think more on this though.
orth

[Pen N Popper]

A sample of my ineptness at adaptation:

http://www.layonara.com/general-discussion/102370-military-organizations.html
http://www.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/109381-earning-level-per-month.html
http://www.layonara.com/general-discussion/109585-freelancer-combat-academy-info.html
http://www.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/114844-truly-dynamic-world.html

All of these basically say the same thing:  Isn't there more to playing then just bashing?

[LynnJuniper]

Its sad that the Combat Academy died off. I had fun with my Illusion Seminar. ---

PnP Don't be discouraged: You do a lot to set the standard for RP in this place, and you try and you try and you try and people do appreciate it. Even so far as to say it influences other such events. For example, I wouldn't never thought to have held a wizard's convention if I didn't enjoy the combat academy so much..

I dont know if that helps, but You are trying and you are appreciated as a top notch rper, even if the Levels and numbers don't show it.

[Niles09]

Well said! I kinda feel the same... its not fun being stuck at a level, cause it is what determines your place in this world in the end.

[twidget658]

How often do the WL's and GM's use their xp wand to reward good RP? I believe that was one system that was introduced to reward good RP.

[LynnJuniper]

So few world leaders are ever seen online due to personal reasons and through no fault of their own, so it is not really surprising that this is so rarely used. To my experience and the best of my abilities (I can not be awake nor online at all hours myself) I only notice 4-6 active world leaders that are active on the characters that are WL. Others are DEFINTILEY around in the world, helping and up to their heads in work (EdtheKet, Orth etc) but perhaps not often on their respective characters.

For imperial convenience (Thanks to the brilliance of the LORE system), you can simply peek online to see when a world leader has last played.

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

I suppose since I stumbled upon this Twidget I should reply.

‘How often do the WL's and GM's use their xp wand to reward good RP? I believe that was one system that was introduced to reward good RP.’
 
As a world leader I feel its sort of my job to answer this question of yours. The answer is, very little. There are several reasons, of which two will be listed, I personally don’t use it and they probably apply to all the others as well not to mention other better reasons.
The first reason is that it is incredibly boring waiting for people to role-play around you unless your in a group. I have spent countless times in Hlint, Hempstead and soon enough Stormcrest for two to three hours on end without so much as a hello as people walk on by. The record duration for this is eight hours and often six hours. Even then the most I normally get is a ‘Hello’ or more often ‘((afk))’.
The second reason is upon the wand itself and throughout the forums there are multiple warnings about the results of overusing the wand. For me the result is only using the wand on the following stipulations.
a) Ozy is not on a first name basis with that character to prevent the possible accusation of favoritism.
b) I have not in recollection or in my notes used the wand on that character before.
c) That I could argue into the dirt why that character deserves an hours worth of quest XP just for role-playing around me. This includes screenshots, text logs, and CD threads all to show as proof.
d) Do to infrequency of use, I remember I have the wand and screenshots and text logs and can find the CD thread in good time.
Of course you would notice there are a few catch twenty twos in this, if your qualifying under c, doesn’t that put you in severe risk for a? Don’t worry, next double experience weekend I will forgot my four rules and use the ‘do I think they deserve a use of this’ rule.

I hope this answers your question politely and informatively, drop me a line to tell me how I could of made this post better. No really I’ve re-written it four times now and this is as good as I can manage.

[Polak76]

I think you guys are looking far too deeply into something that is quite simply a computer game.
It frightens me how passionate people get about their characters about how irritated others get when people level fast or how he/she got this and I only got that, about that person going on 5 quests a week and I only get 1/mth...etc.
 
Everyone wants to get high in level, see their character tough and be a hero.  You can do this on many other RP servers quite easily, yet it's a fast and shallow path, with little intriuge or lure for further advancement.  I've made plenty of 40 level combinations on RP servers, some within a week but they all lack substance and I end up back on Layo with a slow progressing yet richly developed character.

Now with regards to XP for RP, this has been discussed so many times I've lost count.  Sometimes you get lucky and someone was watching over your shoulder and drops a surprise XP bonus, other times you spend countless hours with the best RP sessions and no one rewards you with XP.  But is this truely the reward you need for good RP?  Of course not.  The reward is development & creativity.

Technically though i think the only way people 'could' get XP for RP is to record their chat-log and send it to GM's to review.  Could you imagine how impossible and time consuming this would be?  So I think we simply need to revert to having a WL or GM around.

Us Corathites would have to be the slowest levelers on the server, but i can assure you we've spent countless hours plotting and scheming all to which goes unrewarded with XP, but offers the best entertainment that no TV program can offer.

Lately though some of us have decided to go adventuring and earn some xp and gold, but the RP doesn't end here.  It's amusing how many times we head out and end up getting into RP debates or arguments and the adventuring gets pushed back.  In all cases its quite entertaining and captures the best of both worlds.

So in a nut shell I simply feel people should relax and simply enjoy the escape from our busy lifestyles (well busy for me that is).

Polak76

[Pen N Popper]

Regarding Ozy's response, why doesn't his PC get XP?  Why shouldn't all the Shack staffers get XP for spending an hour or three or eight just being there?  Can you honestly say they don't earn it?

That strikes to the heart of my issue, really.  Why aren't we (collective community we) rewarding the behavior we want to see propagated?  The reason is simple:  Jealousy, envy, and misunderstanding.

Leanthar and the team are right in not making XP a subjective thing.  Why should anyone but myself and my online companions judge my RP?  Sometimes I'm attentive to it, other times I'm not, sometimes I mess up, sometimes I shine.  Who are you to judge me?  You see?

My only solution is the "free level per month."  Some will progress faster than that, but some of us will just RP/adventure as we are able and enjoy it.  Do you realize the disparity between leveling times right now?  There are players that know how to get to 20th level in four months!  We reward fast leveling inherently because everything that matters is level based.

Another question you have to ask is why aren't there more WLs around?  Burn out?  No more progression in character development?  What is it?  Give me a WL wand and you better believe I'm building an army and rewarding them for their RP efforts at it.

There's no right answer.  I find it hard to believe that a player that plays consistently (in whatever form they choose) every week for a year doesn't deserve to be at 17th level.  Why would you begrudge someone that reward for their loyalty and dedication to the world?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Honestly, if you put the XP wand in my hands, I'd use it a lot. I'd probably get reprimanded for using it too much, honestly, but if I RP with someone for two hours, who's to say that they deserve XP any less than someone who goes on an hour-long quest and doesn't do anything but point and click?

I think the whole thing's a bit of a tough subject, really. I was (and am) all for the "level a month" deal.

I don't favor RP over XP. I favor both equally. I can enjoy going out, finding some new area, and bashing the living heck out of it, just as much as I can enjoy Pyyran handing out some rogue-ish, fatherly advice to a new Shadowdancer over the course of an hour. Pretty much all I've done with Ceviren Lightstaff, my currently most active character, is grind potions. There've been some great spots of RP in there, but I spent hours this morning doing nothing but making holy water and healing potions.

The progression is nice. I'm progressing at a nice rate with Ceviren, XP-wise, and I think that's just dandy. With Pyyran, it'll probably be another month or two before I can even go to Belinara with Sall, but... That's fine, too. The RP is nice.

My secret is that I satisfy my different gaming cravings on different characters. In-depth character development? Pyyran. Tangible progression? Ceviren. Mindless, brutal bashing? Grok. Something of different fare? Xu or Tyeaan. I RP with all, and I bash with all... To different extents.

And I don't even remember my point.

[Dorganath]

How often do the WL's and GM's use their xp wand to reward good RP? I believe that was one system that was introduced to reward good RP.

The wand has been used 602 times (i.e. used on 602 PCs) since it was introduced in September of 2006, and 441 times since the first of this year.  Many of these uses were by GMs but not all.

Regarding fears of overuse... The only point of this comment is to avoid someone favoring another character or characters with multiple, repeated hits in a short period of time.  There's no reason to fear its use, only its over-use, the conditions of which should be fairly obvious if one applies a little common sense to the situation.

That said, no one says a WL must use the wand.

[pejsaboy]

My only solution is the "free level per month."  Some will progress faster than that, but some of us will just RP/adventure as we are able and enjoy it.  Do you realize the disparity between leveling times right now?  There are players that know how to get to 20th level in four months!  We reward fast leveling inherently because everything that matters is level based.

There is indeed a disparity in leveling times. I've noticed a handful or two of characters that were started long after Gilli, and have exceeded him in levels in a much shorter time than he was able to gain the ones he does have. In roughly 7 1/2 months, Gilli has reached level 12. Like PnP stated, I've seen characters hit level 20 in less time than that. Is it frustrating? Sure. Can you do anything about it? Nope. Most of the time it doesn't bother me too much as I can rationalize that those people have far more time to play than I do.

I remember [somewhat] PnP's thread about the level per month idea. I don't remember exactly my opinion on the matter, but at this point I've only got one opinion on it: In my eyes the only way to make it fair across the board would be to get rid of all the other ways to gain xp. maybe except for crafting and the point of interest flags, as you don't get massive amounts of xp for them anyway.

Of course there will be arguments about that idea too, but it's not a suggestion I'm making. Just a thought I've had.

As far as the WL wands being used, I can only think of 1 event I was at where it was used by a WL. I assume that person doused everyone there, but still. One event that I can remember over the 9-10 months I've been on the server. *shrugs* just an observation, not a complaint.

[Hellblazer]

well its not all bad, I have had my shares of brick wall hitting at a hundred miles an hour on how to intertwine RP and combat. I found myself a good group of people and formed my guild with them. We like to have our shares of talk when we go out and RP between the battles, while we travel and such.

Also lately I have been given XP just for teaching the elven language to someone by making her roll for her pronunciation. There is always hope but I do have to agree, that unfortunately it is still mostly levels that will determine your place in this game.

Don't give up though

Us Corathites would have to be the slowest levelers on the server

would be just behind us Aeridinite;)

[miltonyorkcastle]

Good stuff here. And if my real life hadn't been/wasn't so unpredictable, I'd have tried to help the combat school along. I know you asked, and I sincerely wanted to be a part of it all, but I'm just having a hard time being consistent in-game these days. And as an aside, Pen, don't think of it as dead, only as delayed for a time.

Anywho, I agree with all you've said. You either have to make two quests a week (minimum 8 hour time commitment, two 4 hour blocks) or adventure (at least 8 hours like in the quests, two 4 hour blocks) in order to progress, and this for the reasons stated above by you and others. This is a video game. Too many diverse people play here to make subjectivity a considerable option. And levels determine progression. It's a numbers game and must always remain a numbers game if we want to maintain a level of objectivity.

Really, the best we can do (and this is exactly what the Layo team does) is provide an environment that supports and engenders RP. The rest is left up to the players. The Team can, in no way, rely on subjective judgments about what the players do. Subjective judgments can and are made about what the world will contain, what makes up the environment. Player actions, though, must be handled objectively, to maintain fairness and equality.

So, if you want to eventually be playing a World Leader character, you must put in the time requirements to either make quests or seriously adventure (and generally both). However, if your interest is in being a pie-sales(wo)man, the world, the environment, is such that you can play that role, without adventuring. You may never advance in adventuring (class) levels, but who cares? You sell pies. You borrow some start-up money from a rich aventurer, then you pay some other adventurers to go get you ingredients, then you hire a cook to bake the pies for you. Then you set up an outdoor venue like Koppig does to sell his home brews, and start making your fortune. Soon, you have enough money to payback your lender, hire more gatherers, etc. Eventually, you become the most famous pie seller in the world. Who knows. And you didn't even have to gain 1 adventuring XP or crafting XP to do it. Heck, you probably didn't even have to leave town. And there was lots of good RP bartering the deals, convincing the lender, etc. Then, maybe later you retire from selling pies and start adventuring, after you've made your fortune and fame. Or not.

The point of all this rambling is, as Pen N Popper's creedo states, the RP can be its own reward. But what RP? We usually only think of RP in terms of adventuring, because, really, we're pretty much all playing adventurers. The beauty of this world, I think, is that you don't ~have~ to play an adventurer if you don't want to. I would say most of us want to, though (I certainly do. If I could make money by robbing monsters in RL, you can bet I'd be doing it, =P ). We want to be heroes, villians, great swashbucklers, etc. And really, the whole numbers game (DnD, NWN system) is devised in such a way to represent progression as an adventurer. Not as a baker or even as a professional soldier. Only as an adventurer. What does this mean? It means that in order to progress, what do you have to do? Oh, right. Adventure. Killing monsters is part of your occupation (at least for the Layo adventurer).

So what does this all mean? It means that if you want to progress in level, that is, if you want to progress in your ~adventuring~ class, you must go out and adventure. If you don't want to adventure, then don't expect to progress as an adventurer. Does this mean your character is a "lesser" character? Not really. It means you're not adept at adventuring, but really, isn't there more to "life" than that? Revisiting Mr. Pie Seller. Let's assume in his pie selling business he establishes a lot of connections. Now, when Mr. Pie Seller retires, he buys himself a house, and then hides behind his reputation as a goodly pie seller to operate a thieves guild from his house, ammassing more riches for himself, and even power. Still, no adventuring XP, no crafting XP. Sure, by adventuring standards, he would never gain the title of "world leader," but that would not decrease his power, so long as he still had people to do his bidding. And you know what? If I so had the desire to play a character like this, I could have here on Layo. The means to do just this sort of thing is all here.

Now, as a final note, if you want to be an adventurer, and a powerful one, but don't have the time to put in adventuring, then I'm sorry, you're not going to be too happy here. However, if you're satisifed with not being an adventurer, then I'm happy to tell you that there are lots of other routes to go in the world of Layonara. Maybe even as a farmer one day..... someday... *ahem*

Anyways, a Suggestion: Play multiple characters, and don't have all of them be adventurers. So when you don't have a four hour block of time to put in adventuring or questing, you have other interesting and fun characters to turn to.

Okay, I'm done with my strange treatise. Thanks for getting me thinking about all this again, Pen.

[Laldiien]

 There are players that know how to get to 20th level in four months!  We reward fast leveling inherently because everything that matters is level based.

                                       They may know, and they may grind their way to 20 in four months, but they won't make WL.  I know of one person that created her character in January.  She has passed me in levels.  Good for her.  If that's what she enjoys, yay for her.  When she goes to apply for WL, assuming she does, the team will look and go "Nope".  Meanwhile, I'll be plodding along.

I have one character.  One.  I do not play alts.  I devote all my time on Layo to the progression of one character.  As a result, I know him.  Ask him a question, and he will have an answer that is consistent with how I want him to be.  I had never RP'd anything before.  (That I can share here.)  I find that I like it.  I am not going down in history for it, but it amuses me and gives me something to look forward to.

I want Galen to be powerful.  I want him to be the life of the quest.  I want quests to revolve around him.  (Ok, I have a bit of an ego, shoot me for admitting it)  I want him to be able to look dragons in the eye and say "That the best you got?" and walk away from it.  Will it happen?  Not likely.  Is it something to strive for?  Yes.  

I will occasionally go out and grind with a very limited amount of RP.  Why?  Because sometimes it just feels good to beat things up.  Do I feel bad about it?  No.  Do I promise myself that I will RP that much harder later?  No.  Because I also derive a great deal of pleasure standing around on a quest and calmly talking.  Roleplaying a man who is in love with a woman and is devoted to his goddess.  Being a True Neutral cleric/sorcerer has actually taught me thing about my own personal alignment.

@Pen N Popper:  Not everything that matters is level based.  For a moment, thing of the most satisfying game play (this is still a game, designed for fun and amusement) that you have ever had.  Were you playing your Epic whatever?  Or were you playing Bumblebee?  Koppig?  I have not RP'd with them, but I know them.  Your RP has made you known to those you don't even see.  Tell me that isn't rewarding.  Tell me their isn't a part of you that takes some measure of satisfaction from the knowledge that your Roleplaying is talked about even when you aren't around.  That's the reward.  That's the goal.  You may never make World Leader based on levels, but they may as well hand you the happy stick, because you embody the spirit of the server.

[Acacea]

We know you'd spam it...we've seen the thanks button spam

We meaning me, and the little people living in my head.

Again I object to the free level a month for all the reason stated previously, and again add that the only way I would see as a feasible method for rewarding a less-grindy-with-no-time-for-quests style is choosing which method you wish to gain XP from, combat or some amount for time-spent which would accumulate over time but receive no XP for kills, chosen at first level and non-toggled except -maybe- at significant level stages, turns off when idle, and with quest xp still trumping both. The idea is not to throw a bone to everyone but to be able to reward different play styles without giving everyone the benefit of both, which is the key problem, isn't it? Different play styles?

Anyway. To the main subject, I have always seen this topic as sort of backwards - when I joined, I liked that the organizers of some major PC events were of mixed levels. I liked that Acacea was one of the most well known ones for a time when she was only 7th, where people had heard of her even if they hadn't met her. I liked that Kali and several other storytellers were renowned and sought out and invited to places at low levels or mid levels, because of the events they attended and set up and the stories or songs they told. I liked that the Leilon Arms had a mixed level staff that had nothing to do with XP, but still became central to a lot of activities. If we wanted to rule the world through the liquor trade, hey we could do that without being epic, and that's what the server was about for me.

It's part of the reason why I stayed so long - I loved that. I guess the reason that it seems strange is that I enjoyed being a low level character and enjoyed hanging out with characters of all sorts. I never planned on her being epic, because I never went to any quests and her combat was rare. But she still collected all the rumors and talked to all the characters and sung silly songs making fun of paladins at the bar or played bartender at opening nights. I had fun.

I never actually saw too much benefit in being high-leveled...better equipment, harder monsters to use it on, entry onto high-level plot quests that I can't attend on weekends and are jam-packed anyway. Whoopedy doo! It was good for some characters, but mostly irrelevant to mine. Every encounter was development for her, and there was nothing that I could do as a high-level character that I could not do at the level I was at. Except just be a higher level. Wee. I liked that I could progress on many different roads without needing to go out and grind the adventuring road as well.

I think rewarding non-combat RP is good, I'm not disagreeing even though it sounds like it. It's just that the frequency and sometimes bitterness of the thought always sort of confuses me. I don't want to force any of my styles onto anyone else, or encourage the fact that so-called power-leveling makes its own reward, while the one we supposedly do encourage is unrewarding. I'd rather just be able to choose and leave it at that.

Supposedly its easy to ask, "doesn't anyone still enjoy doing these things at low-levels?" at level 25, but that was a later surge of almost completely non-combat RP, and I seriously miss her low level days when she had far more built up influence than she does now.

I still fully support finding a means to allow for the different playstyles, particularly when we have gods like Aeridin, I just think there are certain necessary parameters to it that few suggestions can meet.

As a side note to a comment in the original post, I've always thought a level limit on certain things, especially horses, to be kind of silly. They are primarily for non-combat roleplay, as you cannot really use them in battle, but if you roleplay out of combat too much you won't be able to buy one because you won't be a high enough level! On the other hand, considering the lag hit when they come onto the screen, maybe its better that way...hehe.

As well, I like more separation in my crafting and adventuring in games, probably because I've always been fond of full-out crafting classes - so I would be happier with a system that made it harder to progress adventuring wise as a crafter, but allowed high level crafting without high adventuring levels, taking level requirements off of doors... But! That would take more than just fixing a door, because you would have to prevent the reason for the requirement in the first place, or just not change it at all. The latter is a thousand times easier.

I guess I agree in several ways, but am just on some weird island of my own where I only see a few good methods of taking any of it on, or something. I just want to have fun.

[Acacea]

@Pen N Popper:  Not everything that matters is level based.  For a moment, thing of the most satisfying game play (this is still a game, designed for fun and amusement) that you have ever had.  Were you playing your Epic whatever?  Or were you playing Bumblebee?  Koppig?  I have not RP'd with them, but I know them.  Your RP has made you known to those you don't even see.  Tell me that isn't rewarding.  Tell me their isn't a part of you that takes some measure of satisfaction from the knowledge that your Roleplaying is talked about even when you aren't around.  That's the reward.  That's the goal.  You may never make World Leader based on levels, but they may as well hand you the happy stick, because you embody the spirit of the server.

*Shifty.* I guess that's mostly what I meant, just a lot shorter and not taking an hour here and there to type. Ahem... *Slinks away from the thread.*

[_M_O_B_]

Not a flame or anything, but we just need more roaming GMs. People would try and RP better if there was always a chance of getting a random XP drop.