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Author Topic: Different levels traveling together..  (Read 540 times)

Dorganath

Re: Different levels traveling together..
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2008, 02:30:26 pm »
Quote from: Hellblazer
Just that what one Gm says should be followed by the others Gms also, and this is what lacks from time to time, as it is mostly left open to the interpretation of the gms. Not a bad thing, but it can be frustrating at times if not confusing.

Agreed to a point.  But no two situations are ever exactly the same, and without writing a 40-page legal-style document outlining each and every possible situation, we simply have to rely on interpretation and "gut" when adjudicating such matters. I'm all for consistency, but there is no single rule to cover the breadth of possibilities.
 

lonnarin

Re: Different levels traveling together..
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2008, 03:01:11 pm »
If you're a Dorandite Defender and the wee ones need help getting ore, then Dorand has spoken... tis his duty to protect them.  If you're a 20th level paladin and somebody asks for help to get from point A to point B, it is your duty to protect them as long as they're not evil heretics.  It's bad RP to look at somebody with a scoff "ha, yer wearing noob copper and dont got 1337hp".  This to me, is far more damaging than the big guy dragging the little guy, that somebody would metagame to the point of exclusion of another players enjoyment of the game simply due to a mathematical formula.  That for some reason an otherwise helpful protector of the weak refuses to assist the weak because they're too weak.  Help out the lower level players, show them the ropes, help them train their skills so that they can become self-sufficient, thats what heroes are supposed to do.

In game, I cannot see levels or training.  There is no perceivable difference between an 4th level dwarf in copper or a 20th level dwarf in copper.  In Character, all I can see is how well they perform on the battlefield. As long as they're pulling their own weight or offering some form of contribution then all is good.  I don't follow the 6 or 10 level rule as set in stone; its metagaming.  What I DO follow is if there is a decent RPable reason to be in the same group together.  Are the spawns or CNR in this area way too tough for a party around their level?  Are they leeching MY gold and CNR, or earning it?  These factors, as mentioned above are more relevant than party level difference.  Of course I have never been warned of it in game, most likely because our RP has been spot-on, in fact I usually get xp drops.

Nobody has ever complained about Bjorn and Willy, they're best buds and live together, and he pulls his weight.  When we go diamond mining, that wee little gnome with the bow kills 2/3 of the critters on screen, gotta love rogue archers.  He ducks and weaves staying behind Bjorn as much he can not to get hurt.  Is this leading people into areas much too tough for them?  Heck no, it's called playing a non-mentally challenged rogue.  If you're not a frontliner, stay back from the front line.

Buffer-mages pull their weight as well, even if they're invisible 90% of the time.  Why?  Because those buffs on this dwarf grease him up to the point that they help him more than a fighter his own level.  That is why I am totally willing to take even a level 10 mage somewhere within reason, or a cleric or a bard who can cast spells the rest of the party does not have access to.  Level means little in the overall scheme of things.  Never on any of those occasions have I been warned or sent a tell, usually I get xp drops.  Thats because the RP is great.  Heck, my roommate Skabot RPs with his Golem, Grumpy when he's out, and Bjorn's always making suggestions for diamond-embedded rims, perhaps a detachable pickaxe-arm... just because you're invisible doesnt mean you cant RP or contribute.

The fine line is whether you're dragging them through an area or whether their presence actually makes a difference in the battle.  Even if they're not on par with your souped up uber character, if you at least see them getting a bloody nose or making some attack rolls, or in the case of the inviso buffer, at least fielding some summons and casting spells on the party before they vanish, then its good.  Bjorn won't bring however, those mages who buff THEMSELVES up as if they were a frontliner, vanish and just loot.  Come on magelings!  I know yer frail, but dont be hoggin the weave! ;)  

Generally, if the party is above 10 members or so, designated looter actually becomes just as dangerous as the front line! With all those people running off, monsters around corners, tricky spawns, etc... a lower level character gathering loot runs the biggest risk of dying, and it is kind of a tedious "squire" task that is somewhat demeaning in combat.  "oh, yer a frail one, gather the gold from these reeking dead corpses".  How do you regulate this kind of gap then?  One suggestion I have is if you're the highest level character in the group, stay GLUED to the looter.  Protect him, talk to him, cheer him up cause his job stinks.  Then laugh your butt off when the rushers sprint off ahead to get killed around the corner because the big guy is being patient.  That right there is a good litmus test to see if they should be in that area.

Nerfing onseself to match the party is also fun... gives Bjorn a chance to work on his naked sumo stances and Farros gets to stay in his tuxedo, healing most of the time.  Just because he can run in and wail of death the whole screen all the way to the boss doesnt mean its fun, if anything it ruins the fun a bit.  Singing a nice blind or fear song is better though, since the enemies are all still fighting, just the party has a wee better chance.  And honestly, I just love seeing everybody sprint in all directions like headless chickens trying to catch those fleeing critters... seeing them chase them into rooms full of other enemies, etc.  Point is, let the other guys get some kills!  Don't hog all the glory for yourself if you're an uber old-timer, but instead try to point out what you're doing, explain to them your tactics, build a character-to-character relationship.

Above all when grouping with lower levels, try to make them feel useful!  If you have a group of 15-20 levelers with a 10th level rogue, send him ahead to SCOUT and set TRAPS!  Have him look for traps as well, because its really just metagaming to assume that there are none just because you "know the area".  Try to watch the lower level characters and note how their tactics could be better and teach them things like line-of-site, taking cover, frontline, flanker and archer position, why its bad to arch ahead sometimes, and other times when its good to do so with a nice ambush in place.  Show them the chokepoints in a tunnel system, show them where CNR is located and hand them a pickaxe to mine it, help them carry.

In any case, this is how I've handled it these past couple years.  One of the main reasons I'm not 80th level right now is because I enjoy interacting with the newcomers to the server!  Sure I could go solo the no-magic mountain for uber lootz or hammer on hapless villaigers 6 hours a day, but whats the point?  Then it's just like playing a solo-module or an action server.  Every character is a new story and a new personality to interact with, and those that run off to higher level areas never looking back are actually doing themselves and the server a huge disservice.  I feel it my duty as an old timer and defender to look out for the little guy, to make sure people are having fun and to hopefully help others to enjoy the game enough to stay for good and become horribly addicted as the rest of us.  That is why more than half the folks above level 20 remember at some point this fat dwarf in Leringard, because I showed them the ropes way back too.  The trick to it all is ask yourself if you're truly training them, or if you're a crutch to them.  I've seen all too many lads perm out around lvl 17 or so because they didnt learn proper tactics or have patience.  So worry not about asking for help from the big fat uber dwarf, that's what he's there for!  If at any time he should refuse to help people learn to craft just because of their level (unless they're evil heretics) then he should probably lose his defenderhood. Just keep requests within reason... IE: no diamondmining for 8th levellers who fumble polishing topaz. "If ye don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding! How could you have any pudding if ye dont eat yer meat?!"

So like Dorg said above, there is no fast, hard guideline, but rather one of common sense.  Does it make sense that these characters would be together, do they interact well, is the little guy even wetting his blade?  GMs consider this above and beyond all methematical formulas.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Different levels traveling together..
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2008, 04:16:36 pm »
no argument to what you and Dorg said.
 
 The problem here, lorn , is when for the people that are traveling together it makes sense and there is Rp, and unfortunatly for the gm looking at it, who may or may not have been there throughout the whole trip, he sees it differently.

Hellblazer

Re: Different levels traveling together..
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2008, 04:21:39 pm »
Let me guive you an dexample here.
 
 A year or so ago, Me (lex) and Quantum where Rping with players into the krandor krypts. Being that Q is an undead slayer, and lex was one and his aprentice, they were accompanying the lower level chars showing them what to look for. There was some good deal of rp going on, and we made sure not to do everything for them, letting them get in the fight and also get hurt. (yeah it suck but eh, someone has to learn)
 
 The first day we did it with a group, a gm came in and gave us rp points. A few days later, we went back in with a different group and this time with some family members of Lex (his niece Sarah and her GF at the time) and other chars. There was a lot more rp going on that day than the previous time, but then instead of being complemented, me and Q were repremended for being with people that were lower levels than us. Again that time we made sure to let them do most of the action.
 
 so for both time, we acted the same witht he second time having even more rp, but from one Gm to the other, there was two opposite reaction.
 
 So basically yes, I holeheartidly agree with Dorg and how it should be, but from experience, by following that guideline, it has hardly this experience.

jan

Re: Different levels traveling together..
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2008, 05:48:01 pm »
I don't know about how much work it would take , but there is a solution to both the " leeching " and the " too high level items pick-up "

I don't know a thing about coding or anything other needed , but i'm sure it could be worked into the game to have items higher then  " x "  levels above the characters level , to disappear from their inventory .

Just like it probably is possible to have the exp be lowered to " 0 " if the level gap is too big .

If that would be implemented , it would free up the level restrictions between characters because there will be nothing " exceptional " to gain any more .

I know in the past there always came the same answer : " this would interfere with the gm-driven quests and the exp that can be earned on them "

My thoughts are and always have been to that : the exp earned on quests is handed out at the end by the GM , if " no exp to be gained during the quest " is holding people away from quests then they don't go on quests for the RP but for exp .

Just my two true .
 

Hellblazer

Re: Different levels traveling together..
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2008, 06:16:08 pm »
there is a system like this on the vault. It can actually be switch one and off, area wise if I remember correctly. Which means that a gm coudl turn it off while doing a quest.
 
 That systemm if my memory serves, is fully customasible, to allow a xp range affect. Having a steady xp gain if within a certain level range and sever xp drag to no xp at all, if you fall out of that range.
 
 I agree, that type of system would be something benific to those who love to rp and trip at the same time, but are prevented to do so due to what has been said before.
 
 The other one to disallow a certain drop per level, or having it cleaned out of the inventory.. would be a bit heavy on the server as a script I think. But not impossible to do I`m sure.

Dorganath

Re: Different levels traveling together..
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2008, 06:32:43 pm »
Quote from: Hellblazer
So basically yes, I holeheartidly agree with Dorg and how it should be, but from experience, by following that guideline, it has hardly this experience.

That's why I'm hoping players and GMs alike will read this and at least give consideration to the concepts  I've stated. It's true that, in the past, GMs have been as confused as players about the level split rules/requests.  Some time ago, we sought to try and correct that within the GM Team, so hopefully there will be some improvement.

That said, there are two sides to every story.  Taking your example for a moment, there's the possibility of other factors that you did not mention.  In no way am I saying this is what happened or pointing any fingers. It's just to illustrate a point.

Saying there was more RP in one instance than the other is easy.  Previous discussions have established that "RP" means different things to different people, especially what is "good" RP.  But as I stated above, that's only part of the equation. If a GM perceived that there was less contribution from the lower-level party members in the second instance, that GM would be correct to make mention to the party.  It's not just the RP...it's the whole situation.

That said, perhaps the GM was just trying to enforce the 6-level split, having misunderstood it as a hard-and-fast rule.

In any case, it doesn't do to talk much about what has happened. We know there have been misconceptions on both sides of the GM screen on this, and threads like this are an attempt to reconcile the preception with the intent. Moving forward, we should all try and use these guidelines and some good old-fashioned common sense.

As for a technological solution to the issue, it's not going to happen.  While technically possible, it would get into so many interconnected things that it runs a serious risk of causing more problems than it solves. The investment in time and effort are not worth it, as the community wouldn't really gain from it at all.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Different levels traveling together..
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2008, 06:49:38 pm »
reading back on myself on my break, and not having to write while talking to customers..... man that was some bad grammar on my part ;)