Duelists and Ambidexterity

[Ne'er]

I was reading some different posts about Duelists, as well as the requirements to become and I noticed that they require Ambidexterity to be a dualist, but once you become one you cannot use two weapons and still recieve a bonus. This doesn't make much sense to me, as the only use of Ambidexterity is to use two weapons, and if you can't use two weapns AND the dualist abilities, then it seems like a wasted feat.

Maybe there is a reason for this that I am missing? Anyway, just wanted to point that out.

[IDii]

The feat is a prerequisite.

Makes you able to use two hands in combat better. A duelist uses two hands too... the other hand just doesn't have a weapon in it, but is used for balance and stuff.

So yeah it's one of those prereqs that won't be useful later.

[Falreign]

Ah that makes sense. Yeah I had saw that and wondered myself, wondered if weapon finese would be more appropriate.

Oh yeah and since we are being so interested in the duelist all of a sudden I wanted to know if you needed to be focused in Rapier specifially or just anything, I saw on the in game pre-reqs that it says otherwise.

[Acacea]

Yeah, pretty sure you do.

[Ne'er]

Thought it would be something like that. Although I do think something like weapon finesse would be more useful for the Duelist than ambidexterity while accomplishing the same roleplay idea.... *shrugs*

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I totally agree with Ne'er... I didn't even realize that I needed Ambidexterity until I started looking into the stuff for my CDQ for Pyyran whenever he hits level 11. I read out of my Sword & Fist, thinking it'd have the same reqs... Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus [Rapier], those I understand... And Weapon Finesse would make a great deal of sense as a prerequisite, as well. Ambidexterity, though? Unless there is some feature you're planning on adding that will give the Duelist a Main Gauche sort of thing... (I.e. When equipped with a Rapier and a Dagger, you could go into Main Gauche mode. {Yes, the idea is evolving as I type.} You'd not be able to make a Precise Strike, and you wouldn't get an offhand attack, but you'd automatically roll Parry checks, and still be able to attack. Or something to that effect, eh? Maybe just allow the character to gain the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting as well, when fighting with a rapier and a dagger... Something along those lines.)

Really, it just doesn't make sense to require a Duelist to be ambidextrous; I can't imagine the issue coming to many adventurers' minds. For example, Pyyran is right-handed. (He was left-handed in PnP, but Bioware...) He doesn't have a problem being right-handed. He would never really think of needing to use his other hand for anything other than a secondary weapon to defend with, and only that MAYBE. He's been on the path for Duelist since I started playing him in Layo; his goal in life is to become one of the greatest fencers in the world, as well as a broadly-known adventurer. Why would he bother learning to fight a way he isn't comfortable fighting? I'd think it would take a CDQ just to justify him taking Ambidex`.

RaWr.

[GhostWhoWalks]

Part of it is a form of balancing.

Not all feats you take must be good for the class. Or necessarily make you stronger.

They are things that you would have done to become good enough to be what you are now.

Ambidexterity in that sense makes sense and it's there for that reason. It's part of the balancing of the class. Which is quite powerful at high levels. You give up a feat to obtain that however.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, looks like a few more CDQs than I'd thought. *Groans.*

Ah, well. Character development in an unexpected direction - I'll be needing to find someone to apprentice him to...

[GhostWhoWalks]

Well, it's quite possible you have a natural affinity for it if your dexterity is high enough.

You probably just never tried using both hands at once to see.

Those with a high or well above average dexterity tend to be have that talent with little necessary training.

Ambidexterity was always one of those things I thought should be a level 1 talent. It's something some people are. Not sure how well you could learn it. I guess you could. More than likely though you already have aptitude for it and just don't realise it.

Anyhoo..

Enjoy the class.

I'm quite pleased over all with how the duelist turned out. It's not the favorite class I did. But it's up there.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

GhostWhoWalks - 11/11/2005  7:36 AM>Those with a high or well above average dexterity tend to be have that talent with little necessary training.

Sounds like that could be construed as "Ask for a CDQ to get it, and if your DEX is high enough, well, there you go."

Your rebuttal?

((Or, possibly, that it is part of the Duelist training, and that it goes for a bonus feat at first level of Duelist. And, aye, that would seem like handing out a free feat while at the very same time, making the class easier to get into... Raise other requirements, like adding in a Weapon Finesse requirement, and/or a bit higher Tumble requirement. Either way, your comment tends to make me think you're open to the idea of, say, a player having the character burn 10k XP to gain that particular feat, if the next level they were taking would be thier first in Duelist.))

[GhostWhoWalks]

I'm saying you really don't need to request a CDQ to take a feat like that as long as you meet the requirements.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

GhostWhoWalks - 11/14/2005  3:40 AM

I'm saying you really don't need to request a CDQ to take a feat like that as long as you meet the requirements.

What I meant was more along the lines of Do-a-CDQ,-burn 10-25kXP,-get-an-extra-feat sort of thing. Which, realistically, wouldn't be horribly fair, so...

Hm. I'm brought back to the idea that I had last night of making Duelist a trained class only, meaning basically that a character can't take thier first level in that class without having gone through an apprenticeship (a CDQ or two). That requirement could negate the Ambidex prereq, or perhaps the class could give it as a bonus feat, if there were some other fitting prerequisite for the class. Or even simply do away with the Abidex entirely.

Assassin, in PnP, is a class that requires induction, much like most of the other PrCs. The Harper Scouts are a deep-set group, shrouded in secrets, and most people wouldn't even know about them, without being told. ALL of the Spelltouched feats require exposure to the specific spell. These are things that aren't mechanics-based, but RP-based. With Layo as well-developed as it is, I see no reason we can't do something similar with the Duelist class, and grandfather all of the current Duelists in. (I believe there are three?)

You call Duelist a high-powered class. Myself, I don't see how that is, in such a low-magic world. Sure, if you could go pick up a Scarab of Natural Armor +5, but I don't even think those exist in Layo. A Duelist has to rely on his or her wits to survive, literally; AC and attack bonuses have INT factored in, while the character cannot wear armor, and Precise Strike is only usable with the Rapier. It has the attack bonus progression of a Fighter (BAB=Class Level), but not the bonus feats; instead, class traits are gained, only three-quarters of which will be terribly applicable to any given character. A Fighter can tailor his or her character perfectly, with the feats that the character would use, and actually take the time to develop. Duelist is no more powerful a class than Fighter, or Barbarian, or Rogue, or Sorcerer... Or any other class, for that matter.

The prerequisites for the other Layonara PrCs... Let's take a look at them.

Battlerager
Requirements: To qualify as a battlerager, a character must fulfil all of the following criteria:
Class: Barbarian
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Race: Dwarf
Skills: Intimidate 8 ranks, Lore 2 ranks
Feats: Cleave, Toughness, Power Attack

Alright. Here's a racial PrC. First-off, I see a feat requirement that shouldn't even have to be there; it's a prereq for another of the required feats (Power Attack, Cleave). Secondly... The BAB makes sense; it's a combative class. Class requirement, again, makes a lot of sense, considering the Rage ability. Race... Well, it's a race-specific class. Apparently only Dwarves have the propensity to become Battleragers. Okay. Skills? Let's see: BATTLErager. Intimidate makes sense for an emotional fighter-type. Lore? Hm. Well, you had to have heard of the path to follow, eh? And considering that Barbarians usually do have moderate WIS scores (at least in PnP that I've seen), why shouldn't they have some small number of tales they've told 'round a campfire? Feats... Cleave, sure. You're going nuts, hacking away at stuff. Being able to hack all the way through's a great idea. Toughness? Sure. More HP, stronger fighter, better rager because he or she can last longer in a fight without having to be too defensive. Would've been taking a beating thier whole life, and they've learned to overcome it. Still provides the same benefits. Woo.

Bear Warrior
Requirements: To qualify as a Bear Warrior, a character must fulfil all of the following criteria:
Class: Barbarian
Feats: Power Attack
Base Attack Bonus: +7

Another Brb-based class. These fellows identify very strongly with bears, and hearken back to the Norse Bearshirts (Bear-sark, meaning "bear shirt", berserk, you see the linguistic progreesion). Seems they can turn into them, they're so attuned to the things. Base attack, yeah, Power Attack, absolutely. It'd take a CDQ, but mechanics? Sure.

The various Champions are all just Clerics and Paladins gone PrC. They've got thier favored weapons Focused, and the alignments matched, as well as a BAB requirement. Done.

And now, the class we're arguing about.

Duelist
Requirements: To qualify as a duelist, a character must fulfil all of the following criteria:
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Dodge, Ambidexterity, Mobility, Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Skills: Tumble 5 ranks and Persuasion 5 ranks

BAB, absolutely; this is a combative class based on skill with a blade. Dodge, mobility... We're looking at the PrC Swashbuckler. Weapon Focus [Rapier]? Sure; the special abilities only apply to it (or anther light piercing weapon). Tumble, absolutely; Swashbuckler PrC, remember? Persuasion... Certainly. This is a charismatic class all the way; think Zorro. And it's only five ranks, anyway, not that much. Ambidexterity. Hey, that makes sense, they can do the whole sword-and-dagger thing like in the Three Musketeers! Oh... Wait...

# Precise Strike (Level 2) - Damage bonus of +d6 piercing while unarmored and wielding a light or one handed piercing weapon, +2d6 piercing at 6th. A duelist CAN NOT MAKE A PRECISE STRIKE WITH A WEAPON IN HER OTHER HAND or while using a shield.

Er... So... Maybe it's so the character could fight with either hand? Nope; that's like giving NWN Gnomes thier Speak With Animals spell-like ability. Totally useless, because there's no in-game representation whatsoever. So, it's removed. Crud. And I was so looking forward to playing the Dread Pirate Roberts. "I should tell you someting." "What?" "I'm no' lef'-handed." "Oh. Well, then I should tell you something, as well." "What?" "Neither am I."

Sure, Ambidexterity makes Dual-Wielding easier. However, if you Dual-Wield, you don't get your Precise Strike benefits. Our friend the Battlerager doesn't lose his Battle Rage because of the extra HP he gets from Toughness, does he? The Sacred Fist still retains his DEX bonus to AC when flanked, even when he wants to cast Cure Light Wounds on himself? Still gets his d10 Unarmed Strike when using those Alertness bonuses to Listen for his invisible attacker?

No other class forces a player to "burn" a feat; to pick one that is not relevant to the class, and is in fact contradictory to some of the class' features.

Sure, making Ambidex no longer a prerequisite for Duelist would mean I'd have an easier time making Pyyran a Duelist. Okay, if you want to call me down on conflict of interest, I'll have it go for a Prereq for him, whether the class is changed due to balance issues or not. But my point is, the class doesn't offer such incredible features that one should be giving up feat slots that could actually be useful to the character.

[Talan Va'lash]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/14/2005  8:48 AM

 the class doesn't offer such incredible features that one should be giving up feat slots that could actually be useful to the character.

Play one and get back to us.  This statement is not true.

-TV

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Talan Va'lash - 11/14/2005  11:03 AM

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/14/2005  8:48 AM

 the class doesn't offer such incredible features that one should be giving up feat slots that could actually be useful to the character.

Play one and get back to us.  This statement is not true.

-TV

My point isn't that the class is a good one; it's that it's no better than any other, and thusly one should not be held to any prerequisites that are any less beneficial to the character than any prerequisite of another class is to that class.

[ZeroVega]

  Duelist, Skald, Mistone Alliance Scout, and Spellsword. These are custom PrCs created for your enjoyment. These PrCs are spices to add to your character (the main course). Each PrC has it's uses, and some will definatly be more useful than others but all are here for RP. If you (you being anyone reading this) want a powerful character, that's totally understandable, just know that these PrCs are never gonna be as powerful as that Epic Wizard/Barbarian. They work just fine, exactly as they're supposed to.
    Also on the CDQ side of things, you can check GM CDQ Request threads. All the GMs taking requests are swamped. Most of them have one or two more quests than they specified actually wanting. Therefor if a CDQ isn't absolutly required to take a class, or isn't crucial to your characters development, don't ask for one.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, as I see that there won't be any changes made to this particular class, I've only got one more thing to ask.

Is a CDQ required to take one's first level in Duelist, at this time?

[Acacea]

Development thread = your best friend.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Acacea - 11/14/2005  11:54 AM

Development thread = your best friend.

True enough, Fae, but that doesn't answer my question. I take it that what you're saying is that if my Dev. Thread is fleshed-out, I'd have no trouble in simple resubmitting the character with the levels in Duelist?

[Acacea]

Yep, that's what I'm sayin'.

So, before my earlier comment there should have been a "no." But. It was a bad morning. It needed to be five words or less. Hah!