Economy? What economy?

[Pen N Popper]

I continue to see references here to an "economy," with sellers of items getting grief over pricing their goods.  Perhaps this lense-of-pricing could be agreed upon as the gold standard?  That way there wouldn't ever be an OOC issue with prices.  Would make a good hook for an RP blackmarket too on items that are mis-priced, etc.

[Thak]

Sadly there are so many items (which to change the lensprice on it would take months) that the lens is merely a guideline. It can be quite off on some items. Mostly it has to do with Lvl requirements which are set in NWN by inherent prices, which sometimes do not reflect the actual price for making the item time/ingredients/difficulty etc.

Zero's Priceing guide is a better source for information.

[Talan Va'lash]

What Thak said. *nods*

But generally the lens of pricing is a good guide for finished products (items that are acctually used/worn.)  

Its not a good guide for intermediary craft products or raw CNR.  Pricing on raw cnr and certain intermediary products that would be commonly sold varies a lot depending on supply, demand, and how much a particular buyer doesn't want to go get it himself.

-TV

[guru7892]

what if some people created a componants wal(layo)-mart of sorts?

collecting and refining some goods (leaving others raw at lower prices) and selling them in a massive one stop shopping euporium? heck they could make a monlopoly and bankrupt/annex the world if need be...

acually on second thought... we better not we dont want a completely free market dystopia do we?

although i'm all for a 7-11, we need a one stop munchies place...

[Niles09]

Well my prices are 2/3 the zero pricing line, but thats because I think it would be unfair to take more for the armor since a worg leathers isnt worth 3000gp.
Anyway Im able to make panther leather but I havent sold one thing yet, cause people already got the armor, or they dont got the money, which is another problem that lowers the prices.
The problem isnt low prices, but that when people got the money they just go to one of the big shops owned by multiple high lvl players, before a single crafter can sell them anything.
Its actualy pretty hard to sell anything... maybe I should  pay people for buying it

[rusleBIFFEN]

Hi,

as you may Have noticed, Im selling som nice items for ridiciously (spelling ?? ) low prices next week.

That is considered bad for economy. I do not agree. (We had this fight/argument 6-9 months ago )
As it stands now, which Niles points out, is that the chance of a lone crafter selling any regular stuff is
almost null, players run to the stores, which is understandable (much broader range of goods etc), and
the stores/guilds set the prices.

So, now players will pay 35K+ for exceptional belt or gloves. (Thats like 1/2 of a house price)
Last time I was active here (it is a while ago) they were sold for 15-20K. Why have the prices gone up
twice or third the times they were before ? I don't know and I dont know if it is "healty economy",
but IG Hali is a very nice woman, and if someone comes up to her with materials, and RP some kind of
need for a special armour, of course she will make it almost for free.

Probably bad for economy but that's the way she is and the way she will be.

-regards
Hali

[Thak]

Well Niles you kinda put yer finger on it... The main problem lies with armors and weapons. Because they never break. So let say I buy a longsword. I have it thats it. I wont ever need to buy another one.
This creates a surplus of Armors weapons without a demand. Hence it would inflate the prices. (Thats why we must use a communist approach and keep prices at a level for these things or everything would just be worth 1gp.)
All consumables (food, drink, potions etc) are not affected since you "use" them up. So there is always demand for these.

Now we also face another problem. Money. There is a neverending supply of money (ie. drops) With every killed monster you bring money from
"nowhere" into the economy. This in effect means that money would inflate. 1gp would be worth only 1/2gp in two months ore so. So actually prices for everything would soar. A Iron Longsword would be 30'000coin, since the money has inflated.
But dint I say a Longsword would get cheaper because there are too many and too few buyers? Yes.

Quite the Predicament...

Well I dont want to start this discussion anew there are lots of ideas how to counter these effects and some may or may not be put into place. The main problems lie with a virtual environment like NWN.
For now it is best to keep Prices at a level by means of silent agreement.
If you cant sell something - destroy it, donate it to the war effort or pawn it. You still learned to craft so that is a gain for you as well. Not monetary but experience wise.

I am certain that in the future we will find a better solution to please everyone.

Cheers

[Leanthar]

I see.  Hmmm... Well we do have a few options here.
  1) We wipe all chests.
  2) We put our CNR testing/update that we have been working on in place.
  3) We get help from the players.
  And as you stated above "that's the way she is and the way she will be".
  Your choice folks.
  Keep in mind... NWN Limitations here folks.
  Well stated Thak, thank you.

[Niles09]

If you cant sell something - destroy it, donate it to the war effort or pawn it. You still learned to craft so that is a gain for you as well. Not monetary but experience wise.

Cheers

actually I lost about five armors for 3000gp selling them to the pawn shop to get a ticket . But I would really like to have a new sword cause Ive had this iron sword (it only gives a +1 to attack) for months and thats even the best I have.

It would be smart if things could broke, but at this poit I would go mad since then I would end up with copper things only, since I cant afford anything else.

The best option would simply be to get help from the players, first get peoples attention and then discus the problem.

[Niles09]

hmm well Ive probaly forgotteon some issues, but I thought of making a market of players.
Anyone who got things they've created themselves, that together is over 10.000gp worth could get a little booth. It wouldnt cost anything to get the booth, cause the main reason for the market would be to give the single players a change to sell their wares, but the market or goverment should have 10% of the income. Theere should be a max of 10 or 5 wares pr shop cause then no big shop could wipe the smaller ones out, and the booth should have speciel areas like lvl1-10 lvl 11-20 lvl 21-30 so every player both low and high could sell something. A few DMs could watch it, so the prices wouldnt go low.
In this way the players who got a lot of wares, but is unknown, could get a change to sell something. This ofcourse would require that people came and some DMs to help.
If it was posted on the forums some weeks before the market start, everyone could get time to piece some money together. But ofcourse players shouldnt turn into miners in this period.
Anyway I dont think players got too much. If you look in the dnd DG it says that a 9th lvl char should have a wealth of 36.000gp and Zanirth ceratinly dont have that (unless you count the wares she cant get sold) and there are probaly chars that are even more poor.
If you should take money from players then let a hord of orcs storm Lelion or Hlint and let them take something from the players chests and the bank.

[Chrys Ellis]

This is a tricky scenario, to be sure.  While there needs to be a certain level of cooperation from the player base, proper RP would certainly create situations where some characters would not want to play by the rules.  Might I ask what alignment Hali is, though?
  The problem isn't when a few rogue characters decide to sell cheap or give away to friends a few things they've crafted.  The problem is when many characters sell a few things or a few characters sell many things at a price that is far too low.  Then you begin to see some effect on the economy. 
  Now, as I've stated in another thread, the characters trying to preserve the economy are limited in the actions they can take.  There is no PvP, so any threats made to the character's life would be idle ones.   There are other options, though.
  Suppose a merchant is selling weapons and hears about a random person selling the same item he carries in his shop for half the price he does.   In that case, the merchant would be wise to approach that person as quickly as possible and buy the item off them.  Then, he could turn around and sell it at his normal price, thus making a profit and keeping the expected market prices more stable.  "You heard someone was selling this same sword for half what I ask?  Well, that was one lucky sod who managed to get it at that price, I assure you, and the seller surely didn't know the worth of it."
  Now, if someone makes something for a friend at a discounted rate, I think that is realistic, but only to a certain point. The problem in this case is that we all play the friend card a bit too often, even between characters that shouldn't know each other, just because your other two characters that play together are related, or in the same guild, or something.  Xiao has been here a long time, and has certainly been made to feel obligated to offer a discounted price on occassion.  Sometimes I've caved, and sometimes I've acted more responsibly. It's really a no-win, though.  If I caved, I felt I let down the world.  If I held firm to my price, I was often made to feel guilty, or it was clear the other person was upset. 
  I would ask all players to RP more responsibly here, both buyers and sellers.  How many people would really gather a bunch of components, buy some materials from the vendors, toil through whatever craft it is to make the item, then give it away to a relative stranger?  And how many people would walk up to someone they barely knew and ask them to make a sword for a price far lower than the standard set by the market?
  Finally, what can be done about someone selling a large amount of items at a price that's too low?  If the player holds firm that this is what their character would want to do, perhaps then it is time to have some GM-involved RP.  Certainly the various trade guilds would not want to see one merchant continually undercutting their business.  They could start by trying to reason with the character.  If those attempts were to fail, they could use their influence and wealth to bring in support, perhaps in the form of certain magistrates or (Mistone) alliances being called upon.  This is tough, because in these kinds of times, I'm sure force would be used relatively early on to encourage compliance.  We can't directly attack other players, but could NPC muscle be hired to do the job for us?  Maybe a player who keeps this up would find their ox slain, or their house ransacked?  Just throwing ideas out...don't want anyone to act on any of them until they've been discussed at length

[Chrys Ellis]

Niles09 - 12/22/2005 9:05 AM  I thought of making a market of players. .

    At one time thre was an area just for player vendors.  Pretty close to what you described, only the vendors were persistent.  Personally, I liked having them, because it was easier to stabilize prices, and it took much of the burden of selling off the players themselves. The problem mostly, was that people were selling too much junk to the vendors, and it created a lot of lag.  I'm not sure why the player vendors couldn't be made to not buy things from players, just like all the merchants are set up now. *shrugs* 
  The vendors were discussed several months ago, and many people seemed opposed to the idea of bringing them back, though many of the arguments against them were based more on misguided conjecture than fact, at least as I saw it.  Still, it seems the idea fizzled away, at least for now.

[Olme]

There is such a market already...at the Leilon Arms.

I know of no restictions.. of who can go there and sell what they may.

Derrick has, and continues to make the space available to any who want to sell there.

I'm sure many more could and can be accomodated and the RP alone is worth the trip

[rusleBIFFEN]

Hia,

I agree with much Crys Ellis sais, especially the part where NPC's (GM's) could act on
a guild's behalf and "convince" a player to stop selling cheap items (via ox slaying/house burglary or other means of persuading one to stop it). In my case a servant of Lucinda could come forward and say that maybe I should consider donating the stuff to the temples.. that sort of interaction would be nice, but I also think there should be room for Individuals to make drastical moves (like Im doing.. selling becoming a healer). Hali have as said earlier allways been nice and helping others out (Hali is NG by the way, dont sure if thats appropriate ...)  and she will continue to do that.

Another question is.. Why should the guilds/shops which consists of (say 5 players each (guessing here) ) decide what is the right price for an item ?

I don't know...Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't... It's good to have a debate, some guidelines/solutions may arise :-)

-Regards
Hali

[Niles09]

Olme - 12/22/2005  6:30 AM

There is such a market already...at the Leilon Arms.

I know of no restictions.. of who can go there and sell what they may.

Derrick has, and continues to make the space available to any who want to sell there.

I'm sure many more could and can be accomodated and the RP alone is worth the trip

yay I know the Lelion arms. But the point of the market i thought of would be that noone would have hugegiantic market but only a max of 10 items. And in the Lelion arms Derrrick himself have a huge market, so why should anyone ask others? The inn is open in six hours which every friday so there is usually when Im there only about 10 people. If we made a huge market where noone could sell more than others cause everyone got the same amount of wares, if the players would help it, we could make an enourmeres market with enough players to buy and sell so that everyone would get something.

[Dorganath]

For those who don't quite understand:
  Selling one or two items to friends for discounted prices, especially if they helped you get the materials, is one thing.
  Selling a couple chests full of items at an 80-90% discount is damaging.
  If you want to get rid of them that badly, you can pawn them, trash them or donate them to the war effort.  Remember the war? The reason everyone's here?
  If the economy collapses, it affects everyone in the community.  If you don't sell an item and instead pawn it or donate it or whatever, the only one affected is you.  And if this was an item you picked up off a monster drop, then you really haven't lost a thing.
  So just think of the entire community when pricing goods.  If you want to RP bartering or discounts of 5%, 10%...even 20%, that's fine. Selling at ridiculously low prices is harmful. 
  Leanthar mentioned this....we can wipe all bank accounts, impose fees for one thing or the other, and essentially make life on Layonara very expensive, and if we as players don't at least try to get keep the economy in check on our own, then the GM team will have to make some hard but necessary choices.

[freemen2]

I think people that have been working on a price list (ZV, Kat, Enzo, Gloin, Freelancers and anyone that as been as well, with a large range of items) should get together with the team and get a definate price list set-up once and for all. This subject always gets too rediculous proportion everytime it's discussed :s  And the price list would in no way prevent under the table deals to happen but at least will allow people that do not wish to have to deal with this stuff, to not have to. And under the table means just that, hidden and unknowned to everyone else but the ones involved in the deal itself.
L. we're here to have fun and play on your world, personally world economy is borderline amusement for me LoL *thinks of placing a well aimed arrow in Sets' posterior for ever wanting a bloody store in the first place* :p
And a few people selling things for next to nothing isn't going to even make a dent in an economy but then folks...keep it between yerself and who you sell it too...don't advertise it LoL
Layo has governements and guilds in place and if you're going to stick your nose at them then be prepared of having sanctions taken against you by them if it ever gets out *shrugs*

[SquareKnot]

I just wrote a long, boring treatise on economies. But then I deleted it, and instead am posting this summary:

Layonara has a constant influx of gold. The only thing that will fix the economy is a constant outflux of gold.

So what we need are some ideas for creating a constant and fair drain on gold.

Taxes (everyone's bank account is trimmed by 5% every so often?) (This one comes up a lot)
Housing maintenance fees (and perhaps ways to pay (low level) players to maintain the house to avoid the homeowner's fee?
Items breaking/wearing out (OnItemEquip roll vs % failure based on quality of item?) (this one also comes up a lot)
More rust monsters (we're seeing more of these each day already, and as a leather wearing staff wielder, I think it's great)
Bandit raids where some items and gold are taken from houses, unless you have paid the NPC wizard to ward your house (for a monthly fee)

Can anyone think of more ways to create a constant drain on money, something that would counter the constant influx of dropped gold? The war effort was a brilliant idea, but we need something else, always in the background, pulling money out of the economy.

[miltonyorkcastle]

this has certainly been a topic that has been discussed into the ground, but seeing as how it is an ongoing thing, it will always find its way back onto the block to be argued over.  

Middle-men who sell raw goods or components exist, and help keep the prices of things on the higher end.  Also, an endeavor to determine starting prices for everything (raw and finished goods) would be quite the undertaking, although I'd be glad to help.  With new stuff coming from the team, however, either new starting prices should come with the new CNR content, or be determined afterwards.
Starting such an endeavor now might mean a total revision after the new stuff is released.  

Like it's been said before, think about what you're doing before dumping items into the 'economy.'  There are other ways to (specifically donation, to war effort or diety) move the items.

[Niles09]

"Taxes (everyone's bank account is trimmed by 5% every so often?) (This one comes up a lot)
Housing maintenance fees (and perhaps ways to pay (low level) players to maintain the house to avoid the homeowner's fee?
Items breaking/wearing out (OnItemEquip roll vs % failure based on quality of item?) (this one also comes up a lot)"

then what about the people who only plays a few hours a week? It would be much harder for them to get money cause they get them in a slower rate than those who plays all the time.