Economy? What economy?

[Pibemanden]

Have anyone considered to stop crafting items if they can't sell them?
I think that the problem is that the supply of things that are easy to make and easy to get the components for is massive.
You can't hardly walk down the street without being offered some thing that the crafter hasn't spend that much time making, fx. copper/bronze/iron weapons and armour.
If people stopped making the items when they saw that there was no market and only made one or two at a time it would be that much of a problem. But instead people craft away and then complains about the fact that they can't sell any of thier stuff...
My suggestions to a solution is:
1)Don't start crafting(unless you can consume all the stuff you make yourself. It's almost imposible to get into the market without being part of a guild)
2) Sell all your stuff to the pawnshop or donate it away(I am thinking that all temples should have a trashcan NPC where you could dumb your stuff and it would get noted as a donation)
3)Make some things harder to get(It's too easy to get some of the mid-level components)

[Victor]

There's plenty of trash bins around, but somehow it isn't satisfactory to dump the product of one's time and labor into the garbage to burn.  Is it possible to set up donation bins in all the temples?  This would give the faithful a place to contribute to the well being of their church.  If a script kept track of the value of the items donated to each temple, each church would gain a treasury to reflect their financial well being.  This information could be used to effect the development of the game and give players a reason to donate valuable items as well as unwanted ones.
 

[SquareKnot]

>> Then what about the people who only play a few hours a week?

This is a very good point. Perhaps we could have the tax levied once every 500 minutes of game play or something like that? For example, your character Zanirth has only been on 550 minutes since November 22nd. So he'd be taxed once. On the other hand, someone like Acacea, who has been on 17455 minutes during that period (Acacea, please seek help) would have been taxed almost 35 times. Of course, the next complaint will be something like, "my character does a lot of role play, and doesn't make much money, so it's unfair." And on and on. Which is why this thread never dies.

I guess the bottom line is that no one cares about the economy of Layonara. What people do care about is keeping the cost of items at a set value. And the only way to do that is to create a minimum price. And one way to do that is to create a minimum cost. And one way to do that is to have the devices in the craft hall charge money (perhaps only on success) per use, scaled to the complexity of the item. This would slow down craft progression, which is something else the GM team has been trying to do, and push people into becoming experts in certain areas. And it would pull money out of the economy. And it would make finished products cost at least the cost of the "equipment rental" which for some items would be quite high. If people wanted to spend 10000 gp on making an item, then turn around and sell it for 2000, I guess that's still their choice, but they couldn't dump too many that way before going broke.

As much as I don't like the idea of paying to craft, I actually think it would really help the whole situation.

[Niles09]

I dont see any problem in player paying taxes pr playtime, but it should only be things they officiel have, like money in the bansk housekeeping and such. Paying constant money for a house would also prevent that a player buys a house and then leaves the game, but still is bugging the house.
About more expensive crafting. Well what is the problem really? you keep talking like everyone got money but the truth is, the people who are selling a lot have tonses, all the other single adventures are pretty poor. And then the prices gets lower cause people dont get the money. If everyone could get to sell their things, they could also buy from others at full price.
It would be ok with more expensive components - for those who got an income.
The armors I would like to sell, is simple left overs, after Ive tried different ones for my char, and trained to get good enough to make good armors.

[ThrainSil]

If I understand the complaints of some crafters right they are saying there are few if any buyers for items like an Iron tower shield priced at 8000 gold as Zero's guide suggests.  I would likely not buy one until and if I became very rich as 8000 gold given how hard it is to come by for me (7th lvl) is far too much to spend for just a +1 advantage.  That would leave me with no gold for healing potions which I constantly need or bandages.  Iron full plate for 9000? again at the lvl req of 12 I would think that +1 would not deter many high level monsters from hacking me up.  I look at these items not as a nessesity but as a luxury item.  Nice to have if you have the gold but nothing to get too excited about if you dont.

 So in a way it makes sense that people won't buy them as you don't get much for what you pay.  Your survival chances seem better with potions.  how anyone affords a house is still behond me.

With that said, I think the scarcity of magic ( or magic type) items makes the game more enjoyable as it gives you something to strive for and forces a focus on RPing rather then crazied materiel consumption.

[jrizz]

may I point this thread to another thread that may pertain.

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20398&posts=4

[Pibemanden]

On the issue about some players have a lot more money that other I must say that it's also part of the problem.
One of the problems is that a player can actually(with a lot of luck of course) get a hold of 70.000gp(at least it's theoretically posible and I have tried it). When a character gets so much money it kind of riuns the understanding of what money is. Suddenly the player will be covered in +2 items that seemed imposible to get.
Other people who has worked "hard" for the 70.000gp and not earned them through some random number generator will feal that their money has some "actual value" and not just throw them at something but rather have a long term plan that was going to get their +2 stuff.
And then we have to turn around and think how the player that actually spend hours gathering their money how they would have done that. Either they have spend countless of hours gathering cnr and made small progress untill they could sell their wares with profit. Or the have spend lots of hours searching for treasures throughout Layo. Either way there would have been some great rp involved and not just one random number generator that got the right number.
I know that at the 1-10 levels it's really hard to get more than your expences covered, but in the end it all comes down to trying really hard just to make a little profit from one adventure at a time. Right now I have a level 9 chacarter who are running at a big zero in income but still have some money in the bank from some deals and lucky adventures.
It all comes down to finding balanced parties and going places where the difficulty is at your level or close to at least. This can be very hard especially if you only have limited time to play. But you have to remember that you wont earn money without taking risks. Or at least not money that are worth your time.

[Etinfall]

I have heard a few good ideas here. OOC// remember, the Layo team came up with a great way to help out. The Mistone Alliance has done wonders. I like the idea of collection bins. Not sure the difficulty of doing this but having a collection bin for say...the Temple of so and so in a city nearby. It acts like a trash bin but adds to the value of the temple's funds. Eventually the temple can use it on something that would burn the gold and be a great RP situation.

The new scroll system is good too. A way to have the players to want to spend money on something that will likely have no monetary value is more of what we need. The Lelion Arms is good to. I like to go in and buy food and drink. Consumables. I always tip to It would be fun to have a private party there. Weddings should be there, at least the reception. Think of all the gold that can be spent on rp and not items. 10,000 gold to have a fun party at the Lelion Arms. 5000 more on fireworks. 10,000 tip for the staff Well that depends on how cheap one is

At the moment I only play a few hours a week. I sure don't hold it against others who can play more (well jealousy maybe). I would rather play those few hours in an environment that is more balanced.

A good thread to toss out ideas that the Layonara Team might one day use.

Etinfall

[Harloff]

As I see it and have stated in ealier discussions, there is only on way to keep the prieces of items in a resonable range, and that is: We all agree on selling the goods at these prices. The simple explation is that, there is in many cases no costs involved in crafting an item, and we can thus make a profit even if we sell these items at very low prices. The only way to set a price in this enviroment is to RP that there is marked mechanism and RP that these mechanism are setting the prices. The ratio between crafters and buyers is simply to low to have a marked economy, we are to many to fill the small demand for items, the prices should ths be VERY low on some items and VERY high on other items (the items that only a few players can craft but all need). This discussion really have two sides on one side we all have to agree upon not dumping prices on things to many can produce and on the other side we have to agree upon not charging ridicules sums for things only few can produce. which mean that auctions are as damaging to the economy as price dumping is.

As to pricelevels they are set by the GM team and by the discussion in the price guide thread. The reasons why all trade guilds are taking these prices is that: 1) they have been trading for a long time and had been here for many of these discussions, and agree upon using these prices "for the sake of the ecnomy" if they did not agree they would have stopped trading a long time ago. 2) some items needs HIGH level crafters and can thus only be produced by people who have been crafting for a LONG time, and these people are often parts of trade organisations, and can thus set the prices on them since they are the only ones producing it.

It might seem to some that the guilds are taking all the trade and dictating the prices, as part of a trading house I can only say that we are doing a lot of trading that is correct, but we have had months were we didn't sell anything. When we do sell something it is because: 1) we spend a lot of time on selling hagling crafting etc. 2) luck, being at the right place at the right time e.i. when someone says "I would really like to have a iron sword" you have to be there saying "I can make that for you". 3) It helps having been into business for a long time and having people know your name. 4) knowing people in general.

[jrizz]

Harloff - 12/22/2005  8:36 PM This discussion really have two sides on one side we all have to agree upon not dumping prices on things to many can produce and on the other side we have to agree upon not charging ridicules sums for things only few can produce. which mean that auctions are as damading to the economy as price dumping is.

This sums it up I think. All of these ideas for how to get gold out of the system will only hurt mid to low levels and those who have little gold. The only way is set prices within a range to allow some haggeling and return customer discounts. As for bartering that would be covered by set prices for all things (CNR included) so that a value to value trade can be done. The prices should start from the value of the CNR with a modifer that would multiply that sum. The modifer should be based on the item (perishables would have a lower modifer then perm items).


As for the issue of gold comming out of nowhere (drops), this must be delt with also. XP is based on level so why not drops? But it could be based on avg party level. This would encourage high levels to team up with low levels. 

[EdTheKet]

But it could be based on avg party level. This would encourage high levels to team up with low levels. 

 

  Actually, it wouldn't. Because if you team up with only high levels, you will get more gold because the average is higher, so as high level you would not team up with low levels, because you'd get less gold.
  In any case, gold/item drops are based on the difficulty of the creature. The more difficult it is to kill, the more gold (or better items) it drops. So there's a link to levels there.

[Talan Va'lash]

About having trouble selling things:  One thing that I have learned holds true in RL and in an NWN PW is that you can sell ANYTHING.  

I am not saying that the people that have stated that they have trouble selling any thing are incorrect or that their statements are invalid or anything, but seriously, you can sell anything.

How do you sell anything?  Marketing and sales pitch.  Talan early in his career (before he was high level or well known as a crafter and he has never been involved in any trade guild) sold more oak longbows, iron weapons and copper rings (yes, copper rings) than I think anyone would believe.  I just stated those examples because the bows and weapons are things that people typically say there is no demand for.  There is demand.  New characters are constantly being created.  The copper rings, greenstone, malachite, all the low elemental save rings, garnet, feldspar.  I sold scads of these.  

The tricks:  

1) Have a presence.  This doesnt mean "be on 24/7" it means, when you are on accost people on the streets, show people all your goods, even if its obvious you wont make a sale, you'd be surprised how many people will come back to you to buy something because 1) you took the time to show them what was available, and 2) they know for sure that you have it.  Also, something I've found to work very well: when you're selling, hawking, etc. have a different outfit you wear.  Hold a gem crafting tool and stand in the middle of hlint if you're selling rings.  and only wear/hold that while you are selling.  Before I stopped doing this as much, if I stood by the well in hlint holding my gem crafting tool, within 5 minutes someone would walk by and go "oh, got your wares out today talan?"  and then look over them and maybe buy something.  Do this for a while and you will become known very quickly as a merchant.

2) Don't be desperate.  Be prepared not to make a sale.  and be fine with that.  Any time spent showing people your goods, talking them up, telling them the benefits and why they NEED x item builds your presence as described in the last paragraph.  Being desperate to make a sale is what drives prices too low.  and... customers can smell your fear.  They're like wolves.. or vampires... whichever of those smells fear.  If its apparent that you're very confident that your price is fair then people might whine about going off to save it up but they wont complain too much.  its okay to say "Nope, too low."  and move on to the next customer.  Many times I've done that the first customer gives me a "but.. but.." then gets back in line and pays the price I'm asking.  either that or they decide they dont need the item.  Or go find it somewhere else, but getting an item NOW is worth quite a bit of extra gold even if it "could" be found cheaper maybe elsewhere.

3) Be Fun!  Barter, swindle, haggle, trade insults, talk in a dwarven accent.  A couple times I've had people come back to buy something else from me only to send me a tell afterwards saying something like "I try to buy all my stuff from you because its always a good time."  A good salesman is entertaining.  Even a serious character (like talan) can have a lighter side (he does) and when he's selling, he's taking a break from adventuring or fighting blood and he relaxes and has a bit of fun some times.  If its not in character for your character to be a good salesman then.. well, dont expect him or her to be one.

-TV

[Acacea]

Talan Va'lash - 12/23/2005  4:52 AM How do you sell anything?  Marketing and sales pitch.

 Hire a halfling.    

Talan Va'lash - 12/23/2005  4:57 AM  bah, talan can out sales pitch a halfling any day of the week.  -TV

 Sure, that's why he tried to hire Acacea away from Aleister...   Come on. You know it's a good strategy.

[Talan Va'lash]

Acacea - 12/23/2005  5:54 AM

Talan Va'lash - 12/23/2005  4:52 AM
How do you sell anything?  Marketing and sales pitch.

Hire a halfling.

bah, talan can out sales pitch a halfling any day of the week.

-TV

[cappyra]

I think this is the second thread this week about the economy.

The bottom line is personal responsibility.

I lost count long ago at the number of items eaten by the trash can and those basically given to the pawn shop dealer.  

Use the pricing lens as a baseline and then go from there.   Always consider the difficulty of getting the items required and the difficulty of making the item.   There is nothing wrong with haggling.  It can make for many great RP situations.

You do benefit from making items, you gain Experience.  

I see the Leilon Arms has been mentioned a couple of times =)  Har!  Free advertisement =)

The Leilon Arms offers tables for characters to sell items.  Currently there are 4 stations, at times it has expanded to 5.  Each station has a crate that will contain 30 items.  A merchant can place the items in the chest for easy browsing.  There is no charge to use the stations.  The Inn is usually open 6 Hours plus so if you don't reserve a station then hang out.  Likely one will become available.   While there may only be 10 or so players at a time in the Arms... through the course of an evening many many more come through.  I have found that merchants...  will also buy and sell to other merchants.   This offers the one main requiremnt for buying or selling an item.

Availability

But to sum it up.  Just be responsible.  Don't feel like you have to make a profit off of every item you craft or loot.  Craft for experience...  Hey craft for fun =)

Oh... and I do like the donation bin idea. =)

[Chrys Ellis]

I really like the idea of donation bins.  Having them work like trash cans, but tracking the amounts donated could have some interesting RP possibilities, both for the players and the churches/organizations.
  First, the health of particular churches/organizations could depend, at least in part, on the amounts being donated.  We've seen how the alliance has been affected by recent donations; the churches could reflect similar results according to the contributions of the parish.
  Second, the players could reap some sort of reward for their efforts.  They could get a message telling them how much they have contributed, and how far they have to go for said reward.  This could be in the form of XP, or an item unique to that organization.  For example, if you donated enough to the church of Dorand, you could eventually earn something like a banner, a pin, an outift, or something else along those lines that designates a certain status. 
  Perhaps the items could be tiered, changing colors or something depending on how much you have donated, and to attend certain functions affiliated with the organization, you would have to show them the right level item.  In any case, it would take a significant amount of donations to earn the reward. 
  For those not affiliated with any deity, the Mistone Alliance could have similar rewards, and surely one or two other appropriate organizations could be formed for those that don't feel they currently have anyone they would want to donate to. 
  I don't know how viable this is, and how much work it would create for the team to incorporate such a system, but it certainly would be an alternative way to clean the land of the abundance of items that saturate the market currently.  Pawn shops don't work because they are dealing with the same commodity (GOLD) as when players sell something too low to another player just to make something from their efforts, but still make more than they would using the pawn shops.  Donation bins would be rewarding in an entirely different way, giving rewards that other players could not.  For this reason the items would have to be quest items, and could not be traded between players.

[Cp_Winddancer]

After reading what everyone has said I think Cappyra hit the nail on the head.  It's about personal responibility.  Talon made several great points as well.  I can't tell you how many scrolls I have made just to make them.  Part of the fun is to make stuff.
     I do have one idea which some people may not like but its an idea that effects everyone.  Perhaps the armor (clothing whatever) is destroyed after so many deaths in while wearing the armor.  If you are killed 10 times in leather armor there are going to be at least 10 holes in that suit.  I don't know how easy or hard it would be to script, but it is an idea that would aid all crafters and reduce the surplus out there.