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Author Topic: Epic Quests  (Read 186 times)

DMOE

Epic Quests
« on: June 01, 2007, 05:58:58 am »
I've been thinking something over for a while, something Makashi said recently....

"As for why was there a suggested level. Because that is what I suggested suprisingly, it was not a requirement in anyway - Now. After a lot of discussions in other parts of the forums, I took off level requirements, as epics complained about not having enough quests, or low levels, etc"

While it is nice to have multi level quests where low levels and epics can quest together and it has benefits....

Why no epic quests?  Why no quests for 20+?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the multi level quests but sometimes, just sometimes it would be nice to not have to worry about if half the party is gonna die in the first encounter or if I've made sure that all the lower level members of the party are involved and had their say.

Sometimes it would just be nice to be an Epic without worrying if I'm standing on anyone else's toes cause they are all Epics too!

So while Multi level quests are good (and kudos to those DM's that manage to run them)...let's not forget the level specific quests or be afraid to run those too!
 
The following users thanked this post: Blackguy, Stephen_Zuckerman, LynnJuniper

Blackguy

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2007, 06:29:21 am »
So true, infact were part of that minority that is just as narrow as the first levels here on Layonara.
 

Acacea

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2007, 08:11:29 am »
Warning: Long Post



The funny thing too is that most 18+ quests actually tend to have open level ranges because they have such a huge scope, with the exception of shorter, combat-oriented ones. I have no problem whatsoever with that, especially because there weren't really that many epic characters; sometimes they'd be questing in parties of two or three! Acacea wasn't a high-level character when I started on them...

The premise of open levels on challenges for the "World Quests" was, I believe, that it may be of an epic scope, but even a level one character can contribute roleplay, ideas, puzzle help, etc - but they are going to die if they do something silly...or possibly even if they don't. Understanding and a decent attitude are absolute necessities in that case for a player...not necessarily the character, of course.

While I sort of understand why epic are resented on lower level quests - it is hard to adjust, for both DM and player, as if they use skills they have earned, they frequently don't need the lower level players and there's the chance of completely running them over, and if you make up some silly reason to downgrade their abilities or deny them completely it becomes very not fun for people who have worked pretty hard to get there...

But it happens on the aforementioned high level quests, too. Just in my experience. In other words, they're even resented on their own quests, which is kind of funny! The trick to contributing when below the target level is to use brains and much talking and suggesting, not trying to bring everything to your level... which I've seen a few times.

I think a few of the things that may keep more DMs from running these quests are

1) most people are unaware of how few things are actually meant for that level range, so there are a few inaccurate sentiments that float around now and then thinking that everything is for epics... a DM may subscribe to that mindset, or may not but not really want to fool around with it and open himself up to complaint. Which he is inevitably going to get.

2) How to properly challenge a group of high level characters? And I don't mean just combat ones... challenges that get into that range are going to be noticed, and frequently impact the world in some fashion, unless you have a Belinara equivalent to "deliver this package." So if one is not familiar with playing a high level character here, he may be uncomfortable with trying to challenge them creature-wise...and may not want to mess around with lore to do it. If you want a long high level series, it will need to be Lore-stamped, because it's going to be big - and some don't want to mess with that.

3) Lack of familiarity with the characters that would attend, and their abilities. Again, not all DMs have high level characters...it might be difficult to adjust and some people are far more comfortable in the easier to handle range.

I think most just want to play to the broadest range possible, and stay within the comfort zone at the same time - and the high level characters don't really fall under that. However, unlike characters too far below most quest ranges, they can't really work towards the target number...a level one character who can't attend a level eight quest still has something to look forward to, but a level 23 character is never going to get there. :P


Ice, Pan, and Storm were all DMs that often ran things targeted at 18+ (World Quest DMs), and none of them are still running as many quests as they used to, if any, for their own reasons. So with even just those being less active, that's a lot of higher-level targeted quests that used to be ran but aren't any more. There are still some, but it's a noticeable drop with them out of the loop, like I said.


I guess the whole long post is basically to say... we know why there are few high-level quests, and I try to be realistic about the reasoning, but encourage some to take up the challenge right and go all the way with them. ;)
 

Dorganath

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2007, 08:17:53 am »
It comes and goes, as do requests for such.  

GMs will occasionally run quests that require a high level character to participate.  Then people wonder why there aren't as many quests available for the lower levels.  It kind of goes back-and-forth due simply to the fact of there being a limited number of GMs, and the trends keep fluctuating between open (any level) quests and level-restricted quests.
 

Pen N Popper

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2007, 08:41:21 am »
Perhaps some training quests would help get the GMs comfortable with killing epics.  Have an hour long period in a non-SS mode where the GM would test out various spawns and CR creatures and tactics.  The players would all have to stay IC with each other.

There are a ton of 20+ active PCs so making more quests specific to them seems like it would be well received.  

Perhaps it's time to open up some very dangerous frontier islands where the cloud cover has been thinner and thus resources to feed the populations of the main continents is abundant.  Of course, the well fed resident population of these isles does not care to share... yet.
 

Blackguy

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 08:43:57 am »
The problem is that there is no specific scheduled quests for people 20+. Its not like were wanting more quest time from other level ranges, but there is simply not any besides level 1-40's. And when you say that the quests go back and forth between high and lowlevels then its not true. Because those socalled highlevel quest mostly goes to around 20.
 

Laldiien

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007, 09:38:19 am »
Just a thought, but could some DM's not be willing to kill Epic's b/c of the complaints when Soul Strands are lost?  

Picture this:
DM sets up an encounter.  The encounter is more or less tuned for an average bunch of 20+ players.  They wade in and after a fierce battle, a few lay dead.  Soul Strands are lost.

Does the DM refund the Soul Strands thinking maybe he was wrong, or does he stick to his guns and draw the ire of the dead players?  I'm not saying either scenario would happen, but given some of the posts and unhappy feelings when Strands are lost, I can see it fueling a fire.

The Grievance forum is full of players requesting refunds.  Speaking only for myself, I would not want to be a DM that perms a player.
 

Acacea

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2007, 09:54:26 am »
That really applies just as much in a lower-level quest range though, at least from where I'm looking. A lot of characters that play less than cautiously have lost several soul strands before high level ranges, just as there are epics that have most intact because of the opposite.

Someone near perming is usually hesitant to go on 'adventures' regardless of what level they are... if they're close to perming, they will rarely attend if there is a chance of danger.

I understand that the DC is much higher for a level 30 character than a level 6 character, but there are always ways to get advantage of combat in a quest, and sometimes avoid it altogether... not wanting to endanger players seems like a broader mindset than just high levels.

Non-DMed epic encounters are pretty hit or miss in a relatively short time. You either triumph gloriously or something wipes the floor with you, and you often know pretty soon which it's going to be. *shifty* Most who participate in them are used to dying, or even the occasional party wipe. Being able to use skills to your advantage to avoid/aid combat is actually a nice step up. :P
 

Acacea

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2007, 10:01:18 am »
And to Blackguy, I guess, but I remember hearing from more than one DM that was responsible for specifically that level range that there would never be level limits on their quests, or from those of any "World Quest DM." So, if its combat-specific and shorter in scope, probably level limited - if broad and far-reaching, everyone is going to have a shot at it.
 

Blackguy

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2007, 10:24:06 am »
@Acacea
I dont mind the quest to be short, and combat specific. Infact thats the only diffrence between Epics and lower level players: The encounters needed for it to feel like a challenge.

@Laldiien

I would actually hope for alot more random setups from DM's. I remember not long ago, where a party of us where mining emeralds, and I and another asked to be "killed" by a DM there, to justify us mining the deposits.

Suffice to say, that was the most fun I have had in the last 8 months or so,  I think we lost 3 people in the ongoing fight that lasted around 15-20 minutes or so. I didnt really count how many enemies we killed but I think it was near the 50+ marker. After it was done none of these people that died, complained or asked for reimbursement or anything. I have alot of respect for people that can do that, when asking for certain death.
 

Gulnyr

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2007, 10:58:57 am »
Quote from: Acacea
2) How to properly challenge a group of high level characters? And I don't mean just combat ones... challenges that get into that range are going to be noticed, and frequently impact the world in some fashion, unless you have a Belinara equivalent to "deliver this package." So if one is not familiar with playing a high level character here, he may be uncomfortable with trying to challenge them creature-wise...and may not want to mess around with lore to do it. If you want a long high level series, it will need to be Lore-stamped, because it's going to be big - and some don't want to mess with that.

To me, this seems like one of the most important things, and I'm planning to restate it in my own words, so skip ahead to the next post if you'd like.

Epic characters in Layonara, while not as overwhelmingly powerful as they might be in a PnP campaign, are still the equivalent of the legendary figures of Greek myth.  They are a tiny percentage of the global population, and have outrageous abilities beyond the grasp (and sometimes even comprehension) of just about everybody in the world.

So, they aren't going to be bothered by some little piddly thing.  A quest that is specifically for epic-level characters, then, is almost guaranteed to be a world-changing event, something really large-scale.  Epic-level quests require epic-level villains and epic-level problems.  Epic-level villains don't sit around in shacks waiting to be found and killed, and epic-level problems don't happen every day.  If they did, it probably wouldn't be a very under-20 friendly world, and epic characters would be the "average" adventurers then.

I understand and appreciate the sentiment for more epic-level quests, and I'm definitely not against the idea.  I'm just not sure it's as easy as deciding to have a quest just for epics and executing the plan when the scale and impact of that villain or that problem have to fit into the world somehow.
 

Blackguy

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2007, 11:32:44 am »
I dont really agree with that. Just because were Epic, doesnt mean we dont have to clean our house, and wash our clothes and so on.

Epic quest can be on the same scale as normal quests. Just harder, more tougher and more deadlier. It doesnt have to revolve about worlddomination, or planar corruption. But something as "trivial" as infiltring a  mountain full of giants, or venturing under the continents for a passage of old something.

You can pretty much use all the same quest layouts and just transfer them to a "epic" scale.
 

Filatus

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2007, 11:55:58 am »
Quote from: Blackguy
I dont really agree with that. Just because were Epic, doesnt mean we dont have to clean our house, and wash our clothes and so on.

Epic quest can be on the same scale as normal quests. Just harder, more tougher and more deadlier. It doesnt have to revolve about worlddomination, or planar corruption. But something as "trivial" as infiltring a  mountain full of giants, or venturing under the continents for a passage of old something.

You can pretty much use all the same quest layouts and just transfer them to a "epic" scale.


I don't know. Personally I think there's such a thing at the motivation for a character what is and what is not worthy of his time and energy. That might of course differ between PC's, but it should be there.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2007, 11:58:57 am »
I dunno, Blackguy... I think Epic does mean you don't have to do laundry or clean your house. You're epic, you can ether pay someone else to do your dirtywork or someone will do it for free just to get on your good side.

I do agree that there are possibly some epic quests that don't necessarily have to do with some massively world-changing events, but I would say that it doesn't take much for a situation involving epics to become world-changing, even if they don't mean for it to be. The amount of mass damage a group of epics are capable of emitting is beyond impressive.

That trip under the mountain could very well result in part of the mountain collapsing (if not the whole thing) for all the insane explosive power used to fight off epic enemies or used by the epic enemies. Still, this may not prove to be world altering in the sense that the whole world pays for the consequences, but it very well could be. At least it would affect the maps.

Still, to be productive, some interesting epic quest ideas include:

An aged dragon asking adventurer's help in finding some long lost artifact or relative... or ingredients for their favorite food (one dash of orc with a sprinkle of human)

A request by a drow/illithid envoy for aid in crushing an aboleth uprising (love this one for all the politics involved)

A dracolich sets up shop anywhere..... preferably deciding to take over countryside as it's ruler, and only top notch adventurers have the hope of negotiating or destroying the beast. (this is a world altering one, but perhaps not on a grand scale, but a local one)
 

Dorganath

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2007, 12:52:24 pm »
Heh...and here we see the other peril of Epic quests...

Seems a lot of people who qualify for that title differ as to what, exactly, would be an interesting "epic" challenge.
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2007, 01:10:22 pm »
Between lower level and "epic" level, the dark creature quest run by Makashi was pretty well done in terms of bashing only...It goes from instead of let's go chase the bad guys and smash them with weapons to we need to use our brains cause these guys can kill any of us. Now, the whole "higher levels are running the show" or something or another was used in that particular one which was a real shame since honestly, anyone can run a quest, it's the fact I notice people step back when the person running it is at "epic level."

Either way, I think Makashi pulled off a good stunt to get high and low levels on the same quest together without playing slaughter the low level or bore the high level. I saw everyone thinking and using their brains.
 

Lord of the Forest

Re: Epic Quests
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 01:49:24 pm »
Well, before I say anything. It is hard to please everyone. If you try it this way others will start complaining etc. People are people.

There are two various quests in my opinion around. The one are more battle oriantated or more dangerous so they are level limited. The same goes for lower level quests as for higher level quests. But in this case it has to be done to ensure the fun of the players who are on a quest. Many GMs state as well that below the range it gets very tricky for them or that higher levels should contact them in forehand because of balancing the quest.

With open to all quests balancing might be tricky sometimes as how to please both higher and lower levels? If the quest is more or less fighting orientited. Yes indeed if we run such quests for higher levels it are more or less "epic" or let me say tougher battles.

I for myself prefer to run quests qith no level range, so they are open to all. I have to admit my quests are not really battle orientated but I try everything to ensure the fun for the players as every single one, either high or low level can contribute to a quest.

I think it is up to each single GM if they want a level limit on their quests or not as either way someone will always complain about how things are.

There might be not that many "epic" quests around but there are still some open to all around. And you never know if a GM will run an epic-only quest in near future. Just lean back and watch the progress.

That much for my rant as I intentionally did not want to post in this thread as a few months later there will be a post about quests and level limits again. As I said, it is hard to satisfy everyone at the same time.

Regards, Inny
 

 

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