Author Topic: Evil Characters.... (Read 802 times)

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #40 on:** July 29, 2006, 06:54:22 am »

As much as I agree with you, Dorganath, I believe that Anomas was just trying to offer an example of a violent act that would spread in-character conflict. *Applies his "Benefit of the Doubt" stamp.*

There is one thing I'd like to ask about in terms of this discussion: Robbery/Theft.

With OOC player consent to RP it all out (including possible consequences), I can't see why theft should be disallowed. After all, not everyone's a hero coming to fight for the good of Layonara, these days. However, I do wish to stress the part about OOC player consent; that's the keystone. With consent, it can be GREAT RP. Without, that's griefing.

Dorganath · « **Reply #41 on:** July 29, 2006, 07:21:30 am »

Stephen...
I wasn't accusing Anomas of anything, so no need to defend or give the "benefit of the doubt". I wanted to make that particular point very clear, in case someone tries to hide behind the "it's good RP" defense.....which has happened many times over the years here. Whether he was using it as an example or not, I wanted to discourage that particular line of thinking, so that it was absolutely clear that this type of "RP" will not be tolerated here.
Regarding theft....OOC consent is one thing, but it's still an opportunity for misunderstanding and problems. I can conceive of a situation where something is "stolen" by OOC consent, with the additional OOC arrangement that the item would be returned or taken back somehow, such as through a PvP contest of some kind. In this situation, suppose the item in question is not returned as agreed? What then? It becomes griefing, it becomes a headache for at least one player and the entire GM team who has to deal with the situation, and so on.
At any rate, I was referring to theft, for example, by someone entering player/guild housing and taking things from their chests.

Leanthar · « **Reply #42 on:** July 29, 2006, 07:24:01 am »

"....With OOC player consent to RP it all out (including possible consequences), I can't see why theft should be disallowed. After all, not everyone's a hero coming to fight for the good of Layonara, these days. However, I do wish to stress the part about OOC player consent; that's the keystone. With consent, it can be GREAT RP. Without, that's griefing...."

Because then we have to deal with honest mistakes, outright lies that lead to more lies, and just bad things in general. We would spend time doing research to verify, speaking to players about incidents that should never have happened or that were perceived that it should have been done in xyz way but instead the player did it in another way so now it is a grief. I allowed this at one point (a long time ago--about 3.5 years) and even with a small community I spent fully 25% of my time researching stuff that came out of it. I can't even imagine what it would be now. It just is not going to happen. It will (probably) in the future when we have systems in place but not right now.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #43 on:** July 29, 2006, 08:04:03 am »

Yikes. I see your point, guys; that would be a HEADACHE. I look forward to these systems you speak of, though...

And yes, theft from player housing... Well, whereas most of the time, SOMEONE would be home to notice, and probably stab the intruder, in NWN, people often aren't anywhere at all - out of game. So that gets the griefing stamp, there.

Just trying to give the devil an advocate or two.

Faldred · « **Reply #44 on:** July 29, 2006, 08:12:51 am »

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DeadHead Fred - 7/28/2006 3:47 PM

I like the idea of factions working against each other, but I don't think that they have to be killing each other. After all, in the real world, there are many, many factions, yet very few of them are killing each other. All we really need is two (or more) groups working towards goals, such that the goals or the means conflict. Basically, you just have groups working against each other, but not necessarily trying to kill each other.

This, of course, would be much easier to run with GM support.

I agree -- and thought that this could be one of the outcomes of the Blood war -- the heroes aligning with different power bases that themselves are jockeying for power, dominance, or even their own survival. (Of coure many heroes would align with none of those factions, or actively oppose some or all without belonging to another faction.)

But really, this is much less about "factions" at this point, and more about how the overall story arc develops, as impacted by the players' decisions. The only way it becomes "faction" like is when players working for different objectives collide. And, as DeadHead Fred points out, there are plenty of ways of dealing with those issues in a more RP-appropriate way than just bashing each other.

Fian Bearsark · « **Reply #45 on:** July 29, 2006, 09:21:44 am »

This is interesting reading on a server that doesn't allow outright PvP, as it illustrates the possible beginnings of such an evolution. There are obviously two points discussed here, somewhat seperate: Evil characters and expanded PvP. The first aspect I leave to others to discuss. The second point I feel I can offer some insights on.

Most probably don't know I left Layo a little more than a year and a half ago to explore other servers, as I'm sure many of you have also explored. There are three reasons I came back - desire for better RP, the stress of having a maddening amount of gear/junk/magic baubles, and PvP. The last is perhaps the most pernicious to a server. The controlled battles dreamed of here will spill into open war on the forums, guaranteed. The level of sniping, aggression, bad feelings, calls of cheating, accusations, etc. will be endless and will clog the forums, despite your best beliefs about the community and our maturity level. I felt finally at peace the first day I logged back in and realized everybody around me, in one way or another, was at least cordial or outright friendly. I didn't have to keep tilting the camera view so I could see if somebody was coming up behind me while I was out in the wilderness, I didn't have to wonder what faction a guy was in when I asked him for help, I didn't have to get into an argument with another character just because he was wearing different colors. That's the kind of feelings faction PvP spreads. I say feelings, because you can plan it out as much as tou like, but in the end there will be things that slip by and people do to eachother that breeds hate and resentment.

I don't know how the Arena works, and I am interested in seeing it, but I would leave PvP there. PvP can wreck a server's morale if handled poorly or it gets out of control. No putting that genie back in the bottle once let loose. Another point ot consider is how faction PvP will affect crafting and guilds. Cries of advantages to those who can craft weapons of war and other battle aids will be made by those who cannot craft such things. Resource areas will be staked out by rivals, and though no PvP will happen there and then, next to the corn or Topaz veins, it will be picked up in PvP areas. So you will have a threatening presence protecting resources. If the Bad Boys guild is the strongest around, who will stay mining when they tell you to leave? You are safe for the moment, but they'll get you sooner or later.

I guess that's the danger of faction PvP - one or two groups are always better than all the rest. I play on Stormnexus, and if any know that server, the Blackhelms have always had the best character builds and great gear. So everybody hates them and they hate everybody else. And cries of undue advantage go on and on and on. It will happen here. This is not an insult to the community, just a simple fact of how humans interact at times. Soeme people are better at builds than others. I have learned alot about builds from my time elsewhere.There are things that can be done to greatly improve your character to aid in PvP. So I and many others would have an outright advantage in faction PvP due to this simple experience. Then people would accuse me of cheating, or having anunfair advantage, etc. Character builds are critical to success in PvP. What about evil characters getting PM and dwarves getting DD? Now you have racial- alignment -based advantages which would probably fall on guilds lines as well. More cries of favoritism and cheating in builds. This will create an additional amount of stress in Character approval and monitoring of player actions in-game. Spamming spells/KD/Taunt, Shadowdancer HIPS, exploitable combat bugs like not Disliking oppenents immediately- the list goes on and on. Its a potential nightmare.

Please keep PvP where it is. Thanks for a community server.

Anomas Analor Kamath · « **Reply #46 on:** July 29, 2006, 11:24:34 am »

I never argued pvp in favor of factions, i just favor it for the sake of reality.
Rapes were banned in my previous server justifiable because of the enormous headaches it gave to the gm's, mainly because people didn't ask for ooc permission before. And about the stolen item... giving it back? This is a long term agreement and does not, in any case, helps to simulate real world. You lost it, that's lost, happens and the world moves on.. if you get robbed, that item is most likely lost forever, and you must get a new one.

Things were pretty simple.. there's either a mutual agreement [screenshot] or a ban. In Ultima Online rp servers that works fine, even though the game is widely known for it's pvp and even war servers... probably the same problem with nwn... but, is it really impossible?

I would hate the faction system, as this brings hatred out-game... but asking a druid to ignore someone killing animals just because their 'rp styles doesn't match'? That hurts the main principles of a mmorpg, where everyone is part of the same world and then bound to rp with each other... I do believe a world with different styles and even enemies can be managed peacefully... you do have a large and participative gm team.

You know what would help avoid abuses? Scripting some way for the examine option not to show that 'level rating', like 'impossible', 'moderate' and so on... that gives you an idea of the power of other players without ever seing him in action. If an animal killer saw an 'easy' in the druid's screen, he certainly wouldn't bother respecting him... but if he didn't know.. well, maybe that druid was capable of ripping out his arms without so much as a blink.

darkwulf365 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 29, 2006, 12:56:19 pm »

Please watch your language on the forums, swearing is not allowed, and I did a quick edit to your post to change a particular word

mikligardr · « **Reply #48 on:** July 29, 2006, 04:02:58 pm »

i too am planning on returning after leaving Layo for some time, and have had nearly the same experiences as posted by Fian Bearsark after roaming around through half a dozen or more servers.... the thread here started about Evil characters, but clearly PvP is probably the biggest concern with a more open allowance of such characters.

PvP leads to bad feelings and a near-constant XP grab, RP goes out the window (despite assurances to the contrary), and characters are no longer built from an RP perspective, but rather created to maximize PvP potential. it leads to the headache-inducing need for scripting to "balance classes" in an effort to mold a game system which was never intended for PvP in the first place into a level playing field. spells and feats tweaked and nerfed (IGMS anyone? Dev. Crit. still allowed? Time Stop?), class combinations further restricted, and more demands on a DM team busy enough with CDQs and world plot events.

i agree that severly limiting or outright disallowing conflict b/t characters may be "unrealistic" (as much as we can apply that term to a fantasy game), but, with no offense intended to anyone, so what? i'd rather see some RP develop to resolve differences than one guy's Ftr/PM/DwD and some other guy's uber-buffed Sor/Pal/RDD start mangling each other outside Hlint.

look at it this way: there was a ruling put in place about "adult-themed RP" because of the problems caused by that stuff, and most people seem to have no problem with that rule, usually citing the oft quoted phrase: "there are plenty of servers that offer THAT sort of thing - if you want to RP that way, then maybe you should play there..."

one could say the same thing about faction/alignment PvP. with Layo, it's actually pretty nice not to have to build and compete in the inevitable "arm's race" that develops in a PvP server. there are enough slavering beasts of the NPC variety out there waiting to take your character's head off w/out having to worry about yet another evil Ftr/Rogue/WM dual wielding DEX build sneak attacking you to a quick death...

Diamondedge · « **Reply #49 on:** July 29, 2006, 05:31:23 pm »

I think the guy that's doing the complaining about how Layonara isn't like his UO servers needs to step back and understand that, well, Layonara is not Ultima Online. Sorry, mate, but we're above that.

Anomas Analor Kamath · « **Reply #50 on:** July 29, 2006, 11:50:45 pm »

What do you mean by 'above that'? Is uo some kind of 'under-game'?

Mikli, i see your point, is saves the gm a lot of work... but if you look through another point: such class combinations are ALREADY restricted not giving a deep rp base, which is analyzed through the character development topics. The difference would be that some people would begin trying to make them, and would be consequently denied such rights... so the aditional trouble I see is just a couple of denials... such combinations wouldn't happen one way or the other.

And the pvp i'm talking about is still not planned or war-like... but punches exchanged in a tavern or some wrestling favouring the balance of nature. It would be an integrant part, another facet of a realistic rp, not rp being a detail between the pvp sections...

Weeblie · « **Reply #51 on:** July 30, 2006, 01:50:48 am »

The rules about PvP haven't changed for as far as I can remember and will not be changed unless the DM team decides so. Whatever argument one brings up (better RP, more realism, etc), it's in the end the decision of the DMs. As I have understood it, their decision right now is to not change anything, so the rules will remain the same.

And to quote what Acacea kindly pointed out:

Quote

Acacea - 7/28/2006 11:11 PM

Just go to search and type PvP to save the joy of answering another few times. It comes up all the time.

EdTheKet · « **Reply #52 on:** July 30, 2006, 02:09:14 am »

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And the pvp i'm talking about is still not planned or war-like... but punches exchanged in a tavern or some wrestling favouring the balance of nature.

People already do this using their dicebags.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #53 on:** July 30, 2006, 03:36:01 am »

The questions in this thread have been answered.

For the forseeable future of the current incarnation of Layonara Online non-GMed PvP will not be allowed except in designated arena areas.

I don't think this can be laid out any more clearly than it already has been.

Dorganath · « **Reply #54 on:** July 30, 2006, 03:41:59 am »

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Anomas Analor Kamath - 7/30/2006 1:50 AM And the pvp i'm talking about is still not planned or war-like... but punches exchanged in a tavern or some wrestling favouring the balance of nature. It would be an integrant part, another facet of a realistic rp, not rp being a detail between the pvp sections...

....and this argument comes up with surprising regularity....I suppose it shouldn't be surprising anymore.
Realistic or no...the man who puts his money and vision into this world does not want that without restrictions.

egoober · « **Reply #55 on:** July 30, 2006, 03:57:05 am »

and, lets face it, the kind of non-destructive PVP described there can be accomplished by emotes and the dicebag with only a little extra effort..

Kothar · « **Reply #56 on:** July 30, 2006, 04:47:19 am »

My idea of PvP as i amagine it should be obviously GMed nothing to discuss on that. I've read a few replies and i think that PvP would make the game more realistic, why does someone has to go to the arena when guys in middle ages killed people where they wished? just an opinion. I've read the badger problem and that guy closing him with a firewall, ok if he killed them once thats ok i think ut imagine he keeps provoking some ranger or druid by killing the badgers or whatever when they keep respawning. Can they kill someone like that with DM permission?

Weeblie · « **Reply #57 on:** July 30, 2006, 04:57:12 am »

If a DM is around and both persons agrees: Yes.
Otherwise: No.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #58 on:** July 30, 2006, 08:23:36 am »

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Kothar - 7/30/2006 5:47 AM My idea of PvP as i amagine it should be obviously GMed nothing to discuss on that. I've read a few replies and i think that PvP would make the game more realistic, why does someone has to go to the arena when guys in middle ages killed people where they wished? just an opinion. I've read the badger problem and that guy closing him with a firewall, ok if he killed them once thats ok i think ut imagine he keeps provoking some ranger or druid by killing the badgers or whatever when they keep respawning. Can they kill someone like that with DM permission?

But someone doing that would be abusing the noPvP rule (using it as a shield) and should be reported

The PvP rule is quite simple and can be summed up like this: You may not ever attack another PC in any form (including spells, summons, animal companions, familiars) without being in the arena or a GMed event. Period..

Dorganath · « **Reply #59 on:** July 30, 2006, 09:50:04 am »

Please, people....what would be realistic or not, let's not dwell on it any further.
If you MUST do combative PvP, do it either in the arena, or do it with GM supervision....or don't do it at all.
That's the server rule, and currently, no amount to citing realism, RP or other well-discussed arguments is going to change that at this time.
One more suggestion of the sort, and I lock this down. This thread has answered the original questions. The rest is getting off-track.