Author Topic: forum simplification (Read 129 times)

teefal · « **on:** July 23, 2005, 10:29:00 am »

In my time on the forums, I've repeatedly thought, "The list of forums is just too complicated." IMO, there are too many forums, making it too hard to know where to look and post.

Here are my thoughts on how to simplify things:

1. limit the top-level sections to four: 1) Getting Started, 2) Community, 3) In Character, 4) Support. The first contains stuff that would be expected for new players to read. The second is all forums related to the OOC discussions that aren't technical. The third has all the IC stuff. The fourth has to do with problems, grievances, or suggestions, etc.

2. Get rid of the entire "Histories/Content of Layonara". These are in the guide, yes? If not, they should be, or at the very least they should be web pages. It's difficult to know if a new person should read these AND the guide. I'd say make them web pages in the players section, or make them part of the guide, but don't make them forums.

3. Combine "Wild Surge Inn" and "Gossip Corner" and "Poetic License" into one forum, which can be a Layonara newspaper forum in the "In Character" section. A few reasons for this ... 1) these overlap quite a bit. 2) Making it "Wild Surge Inn" all but assures that things stay Hlint based for quite a while. Have a contest to see what the newspaper is called, but make it Layonara wide, magically delivered or whatever.

4. Merge the CDQ and GM introductions forums. First post is who they are, second and following posts, CDQ stuff.

5. Rename "Character Development" to "Character Journals" or something and put it in "In Character" section, with newspaper.

6. Put "Trade and Market Hall" in "In Character" section.

7. Merge "Recent Approvals" into "Character Approvals" (not sure why there needs to be two).

Anyway, these are just off the top of my head. I don't mean to be critical. I do this kind of "refactoring" in my job, so I'm a bit of an information neatness freak. Just trying to be helpful.

I know things evolved over time, and that there were reasons for why things are the way they are. No harm, no foul. Just giving a new person's perspective as someone trying to figure things out.

I know many of you are used to the existing forums. This restructuring is geared to making it easier for new people, and to get more traction on some of these things. I'm sure many people stay in "General" because the rest is too confusing.

Zhofe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2005, 10:35:00 am »

I was always impressed at how smooth the Layo forums were compared to other NWN forums ...

That being said ... do we really need 3 sections for ideas from the players?

I think that neatening up could help a bit, but it would also take atleast a bit of time I am sure. If it is not too much trouble, some clean-up would be nifty. If there is anything we can do to help, just ask.

teefal · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2005, 10:49:00 am »

Here's a first stab at refactoring the forums:

A. Getting Started

1. Layonara Rules

2. Character Submissions

3. Approved Characters

4. Roleplaying on Layonara

5. GMs and CDQs

6. Craftable Natural Resources (CNR)

B. Community

1. General Discussions

2. Real Life Quandaries (rename "Community Support")

3. Just for Fun

C. In Character

1. The Name-Pending Gazette (newspaper that combines "Wild Surge Inn", "Gossip", "Poetic")

2. Character Journals (or something more fun and IC)

3. Trade and Market Hall

4. Hall of Heroes and Heroines

D. Support

1. Server and Website (combines "Website Login Problems", "Layonara Server" and "Layonara Website/Forum Related"

2. Disputes, Grievances, Request for Reimbursements

3. Bioware Issues

4. Bug Reports

5. Fixed Bugs

6. Suggestion Box (combines "Ideas, Suggestions, Requests", "Quests, Ideas, Suggestions from the Players", "World systems discussion/ideas/comments", "Development Related Topics (DRT)"

7. Release History ("In Next Release" and formal release notes)

That reduces the number of forums from 37 to 20, and without losing any existing content. I wasn't sure about "Suggestion Box" since I'm less familiar with the forums I suggested combining. All I know is that it's very hard to figure out what's what with all of them, for someone new.

Frendh · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2005, 10:51:00 am »

I like the forum as it is in general. Though like Zhofe said
something can be done about "Quests, Ideas, Suggestions from the Players "
and "Ideas, Suggestions, Requests". I suggest the latter as it is and change
the former to "Quests and Quest Suggestions from the Players".

So we will have these two instead:
"Quests and Quest Suggestions from the Players"
"Ideas, Suggestions, Requests" (remains the same)

As for the "World systems discussion/ideas/comments" it's good as it is,
it's a place where you discuss existing or new systems.

Frendh · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2005, 11:07:00 am »

You don't really need a getting started section in the
forums. There is a perfectly functional section that
is easy to browse through in the upper right corner
of the webpage.

The links under Server Information, Game Information,
Register to Play, Downloads and Deities of Layonara
is often all you need to know to get started.

Though a link in Character Submissions - Basic Guide to Character Submissions saying it's
here you should post your character request would make it easier (after you've registered).

Frendh · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2005, 11:31:00 am »

Quote

teefal - 7/23/2005 7:49 PM
1. The Name-Pending Gazette (newspaper that combines "Wild Surge Inn", "Gossip", "Poetic")

This is how I see it.
These three should really be kept seperately. Gossip is just that. Gossip. You plant
a rumor for those who want to hear it. One way communication. Not meant as dialogue
section from what I can see.

Wild Surge Inn, an open forum for IC -interaction- ("opposite" to gossip).

Then Poetic License, that's in general seperated from the other two since you may post OOC
poems or other texts.

Quote

1. Server and Website (combines "Website Login Problems", "Layonara Server" and "Layonara Website/Forum Related"

Would get very messy with these combined at times. I'm not interested in reading
"Website Login Problems" or "Layonara Website/Forum Related". But I'm very interested
in the "Layonara Server" part.

And I'm guessing that for the same reason Bug Reports isn't combined with Ideas, "Website
Login Problems" and "Layonara Website/Forum Related" aren't combined.

So basicly, if you do all that combining you want to do teefal, you are giving me a lot
more browsing through things I'm not interested in reading. Time I could spend on things
I like to do instead.

Even if you are confused and post in the wrong place, you will pretty soon get help and
be redirected by a GM in a friendly manner. By changing names and combining you will also
add to the confusion for a period of time when all those people who are used to the way
things are have to adjust and relearn.

But on the other hand, new things are refreshing.

Variable · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2005, 12:10:00 pm »

I think the forums are very well organized right now, and as said before changing it will only result in confusion.

The only thing that should be changed is the basically double forums of "Quests, Ideas, Suggestions from the Players "
and "Ideas, Suggestions, Requests".

I agree with Frendh that the quest suggestion Forum should be titled "Quests and Quest Suggestions from the Players". That would make it a bit less confusing.

Other than that any consolidation will just add more disorganization.

Also the History/Content area is very useful for finding information on towns, races, and artifacts easily

teefal · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2005, 02:20:00 pm »

Two things to keep in mind.

1) In my first stab list above, I didn't make anything new. Changes were all section/order related or multi-forum consolidations. In other words, everything's a "move", "rename", or "merge". There was no "create".

2) I really do think that new people are confused by the forums. This is why so many posts are put in "general" and others are to the effect of "Is this where I put character journals", etc. Usability is about making things as obvious as possible.

So the choice is between confusing long-term users or confusing new people. Since the effects of confusing new people is much more dramatic (though not as noticeable), I'd prioritize new people over long-term, for the simple reason that long-term people will take the time to figure out the minor changes, whereas new people will simply bounce away.

Benefits of simplification:

1) reduces number of times people answer the same question over and over (since new people are more likely to read forums more completely)

2) increases forum use by new people, which downplays "suit up, show up, entertain me" non-community crowd. There's gotta be a correlation between the people that don't use the forums much and the people that make layo more of a drag.

3) makes it less of a pain to catch up on the forums. It's really a drag to have to click each forum to see what's new, and yeah, you can click "New", but that only works for each user session, which is a pain. Since this forum software is less than stellar with regards to "What's new", and since we gotta rely on the HTML visited links approach, consolidating forums is a big win, since you gotta click every forum to see what's new (unless you look at all new messages in one shot, within one user session.)

There's more individual benefits, and reasons for the list I haven't mentioned.

Usability questions to ask:

"Why are there so many technical support questions about layo in "Community Support""

"Where is info on CNRs? Oh! Why is it way down there?"

"Wait, I'm looking for CDQ schedules... why aren't they in this list of GM's. I saw this same list, I'm sure."

"Where's the in-character 'For Sale' stuff ... oh, down with Grievances and Rules?"

"Isn't all this history stuff in the Guide? Should I read both?"

"Is Poetic License in-character or not? I see many IC posts, but some aren't."

"How does someone living outside of Hlint see 'Wild Surge Inn' posts?"

"Is Layonara Server Rules different from Layonara rules? By server do you mean 'software running layonara' or 'layonara online'?

"Layonara Server doesn't seem like it's for me to read. It's technical stuff, right?"

Anyway, these questions may not have occurred to you, but they've likely occurred to others. More importantly, they've probably occurred to people who *aren't* reading this message.

teefal · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2005, 02:39:00 pm »

It should also be said that my suggestions assume that practically no one reads the little forum explanation blurbs, as is very likely the case. First rule of the web... nobody reads anything, especially happy text. They read the link, they click the link.

teefal · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2005, 02:47:00 pm »

Another point I forgot ... one reason for the "Getting Started" section is that it'll be visible to those that haven't made a forum account, just as the "Open For All" section is now. Try logging out and viewing the forum list. It's a shame that things like GMs and CNRs and rules aren't visible to prospective users unless they make an account.

Germaine Lorn · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2005, 05:31:00 pm »

I love the idea of simplifying the forums. Trouble is I am a really bad computer breaker. I have wiped hard drives, destroyed entire computer systems files. The sad truth is that whilst you computer types (those same people who made NWN and Layonara, I applaud you) are making things more streamlined, me and my "what does this do" friends will repeatedly click on .dll deletion messages with no idea that this might matter.

I do agree, however, that I am probably just writing this to add to my posts total so that I don't have to be an orc. *shakes head, mutters* the shoddiest reason for posting I have ever heard*

:O

Mary Blood Axe

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2005, 05:46:00 pm »

The problem with consolidating topics is that more threads in one topic means that even recent threads can get buried on the second page. I'd rather have more topics with fewer threads (like we have now basically)

However, there do seem to be some remanants of past forum organizations that are kindof redundant.

Ideas and Suggestions - this is good

Quests, Ideas, Suggestions from the Players - I think this one should be renamed "quest information" and be put under the "layorara" heading, so it can be used for posting information about quest series, scheduling, rescheduling and cancellations etc. Thats how it used to be used a lot, and still is to a degree, but the latest wave of GMs has been using general discussion for quest things. i think it would be better to use this category solely for quest related things.

World systems discussion/ideas/comments - this category has been here since before I came and I suspect it may have been created in the work up to the change to V2. I think anything that would be put here could be put in Ideas and suggestions and this one could be removed.

Development Related Topics (DRT) - not sure exactly what this one is intended for but it doesnt get a lot of use, only four threads there now, three of which should probably be in ideas and suggestions. L's question thread could be put in Layo Server.

Etinfall · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2005, 07:58:00 pm »

Not sure about re organizing. But I like Talans idea of having a forum to recap(in char) what is happening in a certain quest.

Etin

Ayreon · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2005, 08:32:00 pm »

I really see no problem...

I haven't been here for a month. Same with my brothers.

teefal · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2005, 11:59:00 pm »

I'd hoped for some reactions by people with fewer than 5 posts. Since this is about increasing and improving forum usage, the reactions from the 50+ post crowd would presumably be different than the less-than-5-post crowd. My wife is in such a crowd, and while very bright and very organized, I've watched her struggle figuring out where to read stuff and post stuff in the layo forums. Usually we end up using the search function for everything, since it's just too hard to figure out what forums something will be in.

It seems most people are reacting to my posts as though:

1) I'm being critical of Layo or the layo team

2) It needs to be an all-or-nothing thing

3) It's a lot of work to make these changes

None of these are true.

Again, I'm mostly talking about changing the ordering and renaming a half dozen forums. The consolidations aren't strictly necessary. As I seem to be alone in thinking such changes would be helpful, I'll drop it.

(this topic should really be moved to the "website/forums" forum. I put it in general so it'd get read by the biggest cross-section of users, which I'm doubting would have read it in "website/forums".)

Dorganath · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2005, 07:12:00 am »

teefal,

I wouldn't just drop the subject. You have some valid points, and they're worth bringing up.

You might be right about the need for some level of simplification. I think some of your points are valid and maybe should be looked into. Though too much simplification/consolidation can be a problem as well, since important information can get lost in the chatter.

A few months ago, the forums were reorganized to some degree. I don't think any forums were combined at the time, but they were reorganized. As such, it will probably happen again.

Quote

It should also be said that my suggestions assume that practically no one reads the little forum explanation blurbs, as is very likely the case. First rule of the web... nobody reads anything, especially happy text. They read the link, they click the link.

One thing I will say is that I'm pretty much philosophically opposed to making changes based on the reason that most people don't bother to read the forum descriptions. Laziness on the part of the user is not, in my opinion, a worthy motivation for change. That's a user problem, not a forum problem. The" nobody reads anything..." reasoning is pandering to the lowest common denominator. Remember that there is a search function here and it works VERY well. When people can't find something, they should use that. When people don't that's when we get repeat questions on a periodic basis.

The standard disclaimers apply here. Note that I do not have anything to do with the technical operation of the forums, so these are simply my comments as a fellow user.

To everyone else, let's encourage a constructive discussion, and not just simply be resistant to change.

And in the interest of staying constructive, let me point out that the "Gossip" section is primarily used by GMs to drop hints about the goings-on in the world and on quests in an IC manner (that is, IC from an NPC's perspective). As such, it should remain separate from the din and chatter of the more player-driven "Wild Surge" and "Poetic License" topics. Though players are welcome to post in that forum, its purpose is differnent than the others, and as such should remain separate. Optimization, refactoring and streamlining are all fine...but if the original purpose is lost, the benefit disappears.

Zhofe · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2005, 09:28:00 am »

I did not mean to put you off or to make it seem like I didn't want the changes you mentioned.

I said that there would be work there that the GM team may not have the time to get to, but I do not know, and cannot speak for them.

I think a few simplifications are good, but here is the basic breakdown of what you need to know.

"I want to post my character's thoughts or past" - Character Developement
"I want to report a bug" - Bug Reports
"I have a cool idea!" - Choose any one of the idea forums. (Here is where some major consolidation could help)
"I want to try and buy/sell something" - Trade and Market Hall
"I want to start an IC discussion or advertisement of something" - Wild Surge Inn (should just be "The Inn" if you ask me.)
"I want to post something funny!" - Just For Fun
"I want to post something else" - Stick it in general.

This is pretty much how I look at the forums anyway ...

I do like your ideas however, and I think they can help, but SOME of your suggestions would confuse old players more than it would help new players, or would put more work on all the players in general. It would be nice if L would put in his word, then we could see what kind of work could be done.

regnus · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2005, 10:15:00 am »

I like some of your ideas but to be honest, I generally dont go to the forum home page to look for anything. I pretty much use the 'New' button exclusively. It shows me all the new posts in a nice list that I can just open in seperate tabs and not worry about what category they are in.

That being said, I do see some redundant forums that could get consolidated as some of the others have already said.

Gaunt · « **Reply #18 on:** July 25, 2005, 02:17:00 pm »

Something i'm missing here is the depth of the IC boards. It's limited to one board for whole of Layonara and with a playerbase this big it's a missed opportunity for some great roleplaying and character development. I know some of you are going to direct me to the character development forums but those are all built around your own thread about your own and very own character. No other people can reply or interact with them.

My idea is to put a subforum for Hlint and a couple of other highly PC populated towns and treat them as some sort of message board at the Inn. That way one can post messages that relate to IC behaviour of your character which most people should know about IC'ly but you are unable to RP this behaviour ingame due to either timezone or playtime limitations.

Lets say i want my character Gaunt to become a devout follower of Toran, i can run around town IC and start praying or chanting at each and every conversation i have with another player, or a little easier and more effective could be i'd post a message in the Hlint IC-forum that Gaunt can be seen carrying an ankh, the symbol of toran around his neck and he seems to be alot more relaxed than he used to be the previous weeks. Another PC might read this (if he is a Hlint local he's supposed to know this anyway) and react accordingly ingame.

What do you guys think of this? I've found this a great addition to any PW i've been on previously and a big missing on this one.

Xerina · « **Reply #19 on:** July 25, 2005, 04:34:00 pm »

Teefal well I am in the 50+ post group. I think you have some good points thier are a few gray areas on where to post stuff inthe forum, but for posting you can put it in general, but finding it I usualy default to search before I even try to dig thru the forums as it may well be on page 2+.

I like the forums in general and find it far better then many forums for NWN or other games. I also like the idea of having a forum to respond to the char development thread. I suppose you could post something in the Inn but its more of a patch or bandaid approach. I for one wouldn't really care if others posted in Aelayenns posts, but on the other hand their is no real way to post in my other two characters posts one is recorded in a personnel diary, and the other is recorded by her master via magic.

I have read a few and thought of some responces for people I played thru their post with in game. But the char development is really a personnel tracking system of your characters observations. I really thought about just editing my character logs for my new character as it is being magicly recorded, but it would be way to long unless I kept it somewhere with just a link to each log. And its hard to keep responces to others CD thread in character because you typicaly have no access to their memory or diary etc.