greed vs need

[Leanthar]

*shakes head sadly at Talan* "problem" is loosely defined. "been done for months" does not qualify here because you are not the integrator and you are not the one keeping things running on the modules. You are a part of a team, lets act like a team member Talan.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I dunno, and shoot me down, but this sooooo seems like an in-character issue rather than an OOC issue.  That is, if the characters are greedy, and you don't like it, talk to them about it IC, if they're your friends, or find someone else to roll with, just like you would in RL.  I understand the concept of griefing, but geesh, if the loot was always spread fairly and on a need basis, it sorta busts the illusion for me.  Life ain't like that.  You get cheated, things aren't fair, etc.  I'd rather have that than always getting my fair share.  It's, to me, much more interesting, complicated, and real.  

So you they aren't going to let you have the boots you need, speak up, complain the whole way back, do something about it.  Whine until they give them to you to shut you up.  Or don't.  But if you're character wouldn't do everything it takes to get the stuff he/she needs (which is totally fine and fits "realism"), then don't complain out-of-character that he/she didn't get them.  Relying on the goodwill of the party is, well, rediculous, unless you are in a party of all lawful and neutral good characters.  And no, I'm not aiming this directly at you, Agwena.  I totally understand what it's like to see the things you desire pass you by, especially due to the greed of others.  I'm just putting this out there in general.  My opinion, of course.

My general rule of thumb is, if at all possible, keep it in-character.

[Yllyrryon]

I appreciate this thread and the new LORE entry.

Keep in mind a fundamental motivator of the Nwn game is acquisitive: as gamers we want to get xp so we can get levels and all the powers that come with them; and we want gold so we can participate in the economy to acquire more powerful items, houses, and other luxuries.  Hence this aspect of the game feeds greed.

Just being aware of this factor helps to keep it in perspective.  

I like the analogy you offered in the LORE entry, Leanthar.  Realistically, camaraderie and maximizing the effectiveness of the group (and hence the survivability of individuals) would trump any other consideration whatsoever.  

I concede that such a group ethic is more lawful, and a group dominated by chaotic individuals might function differently, if not less effectively (Milt made some good points in his post which he made while I was composing this).

And I like your admonition, Milt, to keep it in-character as much as possible - but the “greed element” I have mentioned is an out-of-character dynamic affecting +every+ player to some degree.

So I reiterate the main point of my post, here: +gaming+ factors foster greed in each individual player; by being aware of this (and that our fellow players are experiencing the same thing, and wanting to maximize their enjoyment of Layo), each of us can play and roleplay more effectively.

[Chongo]

miltonyorkcastle - 7/14/2006  12:53 PM

I dunno, and shoot me down, but this sooooo seems like an in-character issue rather than an OOC issue.  That is, if the characters are greedy, and you don't like it, talk to them about it IC, if they're your friends, or find someone else to roll with, just like you would in RL.  I understand the concept of griefing, but geesh, if the loot was always spread fairly and on a need basis, it sorta busts the illusion for me.  Life ain't like that.  You get cheated, things aren't fair, etc.  I'd rather have that than always getting my fair share.  It's, to me, much more interesting, complicated, and real.  

So you they aren't going to let you have the boots you need, speak up, complain the whole way back, do something about it.  Whine until they give them to you to shut you up.  Or don't.  But if you're character wouldn't do everything it takes to get the stuff he/she needs (which is totally fine and fits "realism"), then don't complain out-of-character that he/she didn't get them.  Relying on the goodwill of the party is, well, rediculous, unless you are in a party of all lawful and neutral good characters.  And no, I'm not aiming this directly at you, Agwena.  I totally understand what it's like to see the things you desire pass you by, especially due to the greed of others.  I'm just putting this out there in general.  My opinion, of course.

My general rule of thumb is, if at all possible, keep it in-character.

Unfortunately this is a non-PvP server.  If it were a PvP server, then there would be repercussions when you're caught stealing... like you being stabbed in the back.

In order to maintain the family-oriented atmosphere that really causes Layonara to be the most angst- and anger free massive module in NWN (trust me here), the non PvP rule needs to respected to the point where you betray what you wish your character might do.

Now stealing, cheating, lying... about loot, while perfectly in character for some, puts this at risk because there is no possible interaction on the subject for the defending character.  It's fist shaking at the most, and this by default causes it to fall close to the griefing aspect.

I agree with you fully, it's just not in the grain of what keeps Layo as the most peaceful community out there.  And unfortunately that means keeping the straight line on certain aspects, and I find this to be included in that package of keeping the peace.

All that said, this aspect that you and I are discussing detracts a bit from the original posting, which was a bit more innocent in nature I think.  Sorry for getting off base.  

[miltonyorkcastle]

**grins wickedly**  There are other ways besides killing and fist shaking to deal with those who trespass against you...  

But yeah, that's slightly off track from the topic of the original post.  

[Chongo]

Well you started it.   *sticks out tongue, wiggles fingers from his ears, and runs off with the loot*

 :p

[lonnarin]

"Need" the item?  What, so if your character doesn't get it for themselves when they lose the d100 roll, they will spontaneously combust and become unplayable?  Admit it, everybody here just WANTS an item, some more than others perhaps, but it's not a "need" like food, shelter or basic clothing.  What is fair when everybody in a group is fighting a group of monsters, is that everybody who contributed has equal claim/ie: the right to roll for it.

If you don't like a character's greed, don't group with them.  This is an IC issue, and characters who are friends of yours will naturally gravitate items towards you.

On another note, you should see the amount of greed that happened the last time Bjorn went for diamonds.  Eerily about 3 or 4 ultra-low level people got side invited into the group as we entered the caves... fully incapable of either working with or "using" the diamonds.  These people stood in the hallways far back, doing nothing with great valor... *snickers* and lo and behold, they were also the most vocal about getting a split of the diamonds, even suggesting that Ozy and Bjorn, two of the only people who had business being there or did any work, have to roll along with them.

Grudgingly, Bjorn made the split as he did not forewarn these people that "hey, you're not coming along because we need you, you asked to see the rift and you saw it.  Want diamonds? mine them yourselves!"  I'll never make that mistake again.  About 4 grubby little hands that did not "need", earn or deserve diamonds got them that day.  Now, whenever I go ANYWHERE that has decent CNR, I make the people following me sign a contract/waiver acknowledging that their cut is the loot gold and opportunity to rolld100s on dropped items, nothing more.  If they don't like it, then they don't follow me.

So aye, I can see how people not needing things all rolling d100s gets annoying, but it's ENTIRELY an IC issue.  Those people tthat weasled and cheated Bjorn out of his diamond pile will NEVER get the opportunity to join Bjornigar Enterprises again!  Therein is the IC system of checks and balances.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!  (Tough luck mooches! )

[miltonyorkcastle]

*snickers*  I looooves the Fat Dwarf.

[Nyralotep]

A non issue for me.  Long ago I accepted that I will never get the winning roll for anything I need in a large group of players.  So I adventure with people and characters I trust and know my need and not with others that don't.  

As for what Lonn said I can totally agree, if I ever get in a group doing CNR I never try and get part of it unless it's offered to me.  My main character, Nob, makes sure the fighters are always alive so he passes good items like that to the fighters and usually keeps items used by Wizards unless there are other Wizards present.

Now if we could get some scrolls above 3rd level to drop that might get my hopes up to do more die rolls  

[Acacea]

To comment on the topic and the one that branched out from it...

• The idea of handling "loot splitting" in an OOC fashion because the -player- wants something just makes me twitch.

I can agree completely that it is better for items to go where they are needed, but I do not think items such as L's quest rewards are a good example. Those are not looted from corpses, they are rolled out of character after it's all gone down, and are usually class specific. Anyone who sold one, whether or not they still use it, would need to be shot. Gently. But shot. So it is in everyone's best interest to try only for what you can use, as the only thing you accomplish in doing otherwise is ripping someone else off. You don't even get money from a sale, and it's completely out of character so "my alignment justifies this" isn't going to cut it.

In this case, it is a valuable item found in a party of varied characters, that is as a whole likely hunting for gold as well as XP... and it is not a class specific item. As much as I cringe at the description, they're still ultimately a pair of dancing shoes. Yes, they benefit a sorceror or a bard (or really anyone that wants them, let's be honest) because of their stats, but I don't feel anyone is obligated to hand them out... and I'm saying that as a player of a bard who would be in the running for them if they dropped for a group I was in.

This thread does bring up valid issues, and yet it seems to have started mostly because someone did not get an item that they felt they were due. We do not know the character's role in the party, how well it was played, the roles of the others in the party, how the distribution was handled and if it was in or out of character, who looted, what other items were split (if any), or any other factors that would make it easier to assess the situation in a more unbiased fashion than "my character totally should have gotten these." I can understand the sentiment, but would rather refrain from jumping on it without knowing the surrounding circumstances (did anyone ELSE need it?), and what attempts you made -IC- to deal with this completely IC issue, before coming to post on the forums. (Ouch on the selling back to you though, harsh.)

So yes... with Cole on that one. IC all the way, while acknowledging the whole greater need thing.

• On the somewhat different subject of outright stealing things, I also like that done in an IC fashion. Many people list the "ideal ways to handle looting" but the methods of any CN character of mine would be very different from that of the LG paladin. It seems obvious to me that the "ideal way of looting" is actually just making someone you trust grab the gold and items. IC and OOC. No problems.

I can (very) grudgingly admit that a system sharing what party members find would make sense for these OOC snakey actions, but do not at all think it is a "duh," as to me it only creates metagaming situations, removing the option of well-played, IC theft in most cases, in a purely OOC fashion. Swiping a longbow or a greataxe? Bogus. Pocketing change and trinkets? *Shrugs...* Have a problem? Don't let rogues loot -- solved.

It would be implemented to help prevent the tasteless and clearly OOC theft but it does come with a sacrifice to roleplaying that is perhaps necessary because of players that are not roleplaying in the first place. (Abusing PvP rules, "I can hide stripping off his adamantium full plate and stashing it," etc)

In the end, though, you don't need to betray your character concept in order to "respect" fellow players when it comes to theft. It's called emoting and skill checks. You don't even need to tell them what the check is for. But if you're -really- concerned about the roleplaying ("it's my alignment!"), then you should very well know that simply keeping an item is an auto-success that is forced and OOC. If you've got the skills, use them...it's what they're there for.

[lonnarin]

"if I ever get in a group doing CNR I never try and get part of it unless it's offered to me."

well, offered or bargained for.  It's totally acceptable to speak up before a CNR expedition to say. "Hey, I too work with this material, can I get a cut?"  Every crafter should speak up before such ventures.  As for random drops, bargaining for dibs-rights also is acceptable.  Before venturing out, every character expresses which key item they want more than anything else.  The mage says he wants the dusts or scrolls, the fighter wants the weapons, the cleric wants Oppressive Theocracy, etc..  Then if by chance such items show up, they get that one, and have to sit out the next item found out of fairness.  This is called "Round Robin Contingient" Looting.

Let's see, more looting classes...

Free-For-All: Everybody picks up what they can... usually used when gold is almost negligable or groups are in a hurry, in transit.

Pile & Split:  EVERYBODY loots, then tosses it in a big pile at the end and splits it

The Red Bank: One Looter divys up everything as equally as possible.

The Swiss Bank: Through laundering, some people found more equal than others...

Worker's Revolution: any of the other forms, mixed with the requirement that only those who work with particular CNR get to split it.

Worker's Beneficience: As above with Worker's Revolutuion, but the crafters opt out of the gold-split as to bribe the rest of the group fairly.

Bourgeoise Fleecing: The higher the level, the higher their order in line

Marxist Revolt- The LOWER the Level, the Higher their order in line

Round Robin: No member may recieve his 2nd random item until ALL others have at least 1

Round Robin- Chance: Every person gets to roll for an item until they get one, then they must wait until everybody else gets an item before they can roll again.

Round Robin- Contingient: per Round Robin, but with Dibs called well before the venture. "I would like a Bloodletter's Blade if we find one!"

Round Robin- Static: Like Round Robin Chance, but no rolls are made.  Instead, the group has a numbered list of members who are in line to recieve special items.  So when item 1 is found, it goes to player 1, Item 2 to player 2, etc.  Afterwards they usually trade with eachother.

Cut-throat Chance: Every time an item is found, EVERYBODY rolls d100, no matter how many items they already won (the most practiced method, unfortunately)

Dibs: declaration of ownership rights

Blind Dibs: When dibs are called before the item is identified... ie: oh hey I found something... *3 players raise their hands*

Contingient Dibs: BEFORE the adventure, the character calls dibs on a certain item or type of item that his class uses. Mage- "I want the scrolls!"

Rabid Dibs: When dibs are called when item is SEEN, whether they use it or not

Absentee Dibs: When dibs are called for an item a character would like to hold onto a friend not in the party... "My mage friend needs topaz, I want a cut of that"

[Acacea]

lonnarin - 7/14/2006  3:12 PM
The mage says he wants the dusts or scrolls, the fighter wants the weapons, the cleric wants Oppressive Theocracy, etc..

Point for Lonn! *Snickers.*


Edit- Aha! You back-edited. Lonn's Loot Methods post is now my favorite in the thread...

[Chongo]

lonnarin - 7/14/2006  3:13 PM

On another note, you should see the amount of greed that happened the last time Bjorn went for diamonds.  Eerily about 3 or 4 ultra-low level people got side invited into the group as we entered the caves... fully incapable of either working with or "using" the diamonds.  These people stood in the hallways far back, doing nothing with great valor... *snickers* and lo and behold, they were also the most vocal about getting a split of the diamonds, even suggesting that Ozy and Bjorn, two of the only people who had business being there or did any work, have to roll along with them.

Grudgingly, Bjorn made the split as he did not forewarn these people that "hey, you're not coming along because we need you, you asked to see the rift and you saw it.  Want diamonds? mine them yourselves!"  I'll never make that mistake again.  About 4 grubby little hands that did not "need", earn or deserve diamonds got them that day.  Now, whenever I go ANYWHERE that has decent CNR, I make the people following me sign a contract/waiver acknowledging that their cut is the loot gold and opportunity to rolld100s on dropped items, nothing more.  If they don't like it, then they don't follow me.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!  (Tough luck mooches! )

I completely agre..... HEY WAIT!  I was with you on that!

[Chongo]

Acacea - 7/14/2006  4:02 PM

• On the somewhat different subject of outright stealing things, I also like that done in an IC fashion. Many people list the "ideal ways to handle looting" but the methods of any CN character of mine would be very different from that of the LG paladin. It seems obvious to me that the "ideal way of looting" is actually just making someone you trust grab the gold and items. IC and OOC. No problems.

I can (very) grudgingly admit that a system sharing what party members find would make sense for these OOC snakey actions, but do not at all think it is a "duh," as to me it only creates metagaming situations, removing the option of well-played, IC theft in most cases, in a purely OOC fashion. Swiping a longbow or a greataxe? Bogus. Pocketing change and trinkets? *Shrugs...* Have a problem? Don't let rogues loot -- solved.

I agree with you completely on these points.  100%.

But, this is a family oriented no PvP server, and it's a rocky road entertaining any of these.  Now this extends into a lot of aspects that we tend to try and smooth over with soft metagaming.

The problem arises in the disparity of playstyle, ethics, and opinion in the large crowd that makes up this player base.  And it ultimately comes down to keeping the peace on a broad sweeping scale.

Why was PP'ing made against the rules?  Because of the disparity in the player base and inevitable disputes.

Why was PK'ing made against the rules?  The same reason.

In every situation where something should arise in an IC fashion to lead to PP'ing or more usually PK'ing.. we metagame, alter our RP to the best of our ability, and change the desirably course to keep the peace that is set by the server rules.

Unfair loot distribution or keeping items found without notifying others is something that potentially brings forth the same problem that disrupts the peace.  Because of the disparity of opinion, playstyle, and ethics in the player base and inevitable disputes.

Sure, it leads to altering situational roleplay, and it disrupts the IC nature a lot of people would prefer to keep.  But if we can deal with that in reference to PvP in other aspects, then we can deal with it here.  And people will keep the peace.

Yeah, I know that the players that we each like to circle around and associate with don't need these rules.  They probably don't need PvP rules either amongst themselves.  But when they apply that to someone of different playstyle and anticipate the same response as they'd have amongst their own preferred peers... problems often arise.

Now there's potentially system that will help with distinguishing better the usable information you'd need to actually roleplay this out.  The one Dorgonath pointed out.  And if it allows the group to see what is picked up... then the opportunity arises to fairly roleplay out the situation should any theiving characters play their part.  This resolves the issue in one sense... but then makes many scenarios PvP.  What if they don't concede that they have that additional item?  What do you do then?  Is there a broad spectrum solution that stays true to the no PvP server?

It just gets difficult, and I think in the end, the disparity of opinion, playstyle, and ethics in the player base will lead to inevitable disputes that bring this into the realm of PvP situations that Layonara has as of yet successfully avoided to keep the peace for a happy server.


But yes, in theory I'm 100% with you.