Difference between topside and underground

[wild_down_under]

Hi All,

I have a question. I am not trying to find loopholes, I just want to get a better understanding.

Here is scenario #1.

A player decides to go get platinum. He/she rests in Fort Vehl, or the transitions outside of Fort Vehl in the forest, which are several transitions away from the platinum swamp entrance. He/she travels all the way and fights all the trolls and whatever, to get to the platinum. (I am estimating less than 20 transitions to get to the platinum from Fort Vehl.) Afterwards, he/she gets back to Fort Vehl to rest and log. The next day, repeat. Why is this considered ok? (I assume it is ok because I have seen many done it and there has been no repercussions.)

Here is scenario #2.

A high level player decides to get titantium. He decides to rest down in the Deep and not on the surface. Or perhaps he's an evil character that prefers the dark shade over the sunlight. Or he's a dwarf that likes to mine and prefers underground. Or a dark elf or dwarf. (yes I know it is dangerous but I am sure not every corner, every tunnel down in the Deep is dangerous 24/7. I am sure perhaps a secluded part is partially safer than the rest to have a "quick" rest.) Anways, he fights his way to get titanium and travels about the same amount of transitions as in scenario #1 to that "safer" spot to catch his breath and rest a bit. He logs and repeats the next day. However, this is considered "camping" for CNR.

Why is doing it on the surface is ok but down in the Deep it is not ok?

One can argue well it is safer to rest on the surface. True, but I have seen players resting in forests near the Prantz area, or in the Great Forest near Hilm Castle. Those giants near Prantz do roam. Those Great Forest giants roam as well. Those Screechers too. This is similar to saying oh there are dangerous creatures down in the Deep.

[Filatus]

I'm not authority on this matter, but it seems to me that you focus too much on the amount of transitions. High end resources shouldn't be compared to say fire opals or platinum. You shouldn't compare the Deep with its mithril, emeralds and epic loot drops to say the fire opal cave in Rael.

Logging off in the Deep to try again another day is comparable to not leaving the fire opal cave and logging right back in another day to get to the resources quicker. You shouldn't look at the last few area's around high-end resources and compare them to say the troll swamps near Vehl. Those troll swamps should be compared to the area's from where you enter the Deep to where you harvest the high end resources.

While I personally don't much like the time investment required for the Deep, it's a rule that applies to all of us. And if people start rule lawyering their way around them, either they have an unfair advantage over other people, or everyone starts doing it.

Apart from the simple rule of common sense it's always good to consider actions if you imagined everyone would do the same. What if everyone starts to just log off in the Deep and start mining the mithril on a daily basis? If it breaks the game if everyone does it, an individual player also shouldn't do it.

[geloooo]

I'm not really an authority on this but from my understanding, camping ANYWHERE is not ok, looping however is fine.

Your second scenario becomes a violation of the rule on camping because you logged off in near the CNR no matter how many boards you are away from it. Ultimately, you shouldn't log-off at a place near spawns/CNR after you've made your run because it might be interpreted as camping the area. If you must log-off, try leaving the area as fast and safe as you can. If not, place your PC in a safe area and ask a DM for a port.

I did this back then when Ni'haer was killing bandits in Shara's hideout. I had to leave and I didn't have enough time to get out of the cave and shut down my computer so I just left Ni'haer in a safe secluded spot. I logged back on and killed the bandits on my way out. Apparently, this was wrong. I should have just left as quickly and safely as possible.

It just so happens that the Deep contains a lot of valuable CNR compared to the surface so it looks as if its monitored more. These rules are set in place to avoid abuse and the easy acquisition of such CNR. There's only one rule for all the areas in the game world and we shouldn't camp, period.

[Lareth]

There are areas of the Deep where arguably you can rest and log out, and it not be unreasonable.

I'm thinking of specifically the Market area as an example, I forget the name, but as a trades crossroad, I would think that it's open to travellers, particularly Dark elves, Deep dwarves etc., but I don't think it's a stretch to see a powerful surface mage or the likes down there.

Of course I would fully expect any GM who sees me there to spring a suprise or two, like a dark elf cutpurse, or an illithid with anger issues.. but hey thats the fun of it

[Dorganath]

Well put, Filatus, though in my mind it is even less a matter of what resources (CNR, XP, treasure, etc.) are available in any given area or set of areas but rather a matter of patterns of behavior.

There's three aspects to what wild_down_under is referring to, and none of them really exists in a vacuum. I'll also say I'm aware of the situation that likely spawned this question, though I have not yet caught myself up on it after being gone for several days. In that light, nothing I say below should be construed as overriding whatever was said to you by any GMs on this or a related matter.

Anyway, the three parts are camping, looping and what I'll call the "log loop", since I don't think we gave it a name.

Camping is staying in the same area (or small cluster of related areas) to harvest the CNR, creatures, XP, treasure or whatever.  Typically, this is a single area with the resource in question, but if the area with the resource is too dangerous or volatile to linger in safely, we often consider the adjacent area(s) in the "camp" because the intent is the same. As has been covered elsewhere and documented on LORE, camping is limited to 30 minutes for any given resource.

Looping is running through the same relatively small set of areas (how many depends on the areas, of course) repeatedly in a relatively short span of time. Looping is limited to 60 minutes, after which time, you must move on.

What I have called "log looping" is the practice of camping or looping within the allowed time frames, logging out somewhere nearby and relatively safe, then logging in again sometime later and repeating the process.  This is an iffy practice for a few reasons, but it's not forbidden either. Rather, like the other practices (camping and looping) it is limited to three (3) times in a 24-hour period. We make this allowance because we know that sometimes people have a limited amount of time to play, yet still there needs to be reasonable limits.

That is the letter of the rule.  The intent behind it has nothing to do with location, value of the resources or anything else of the sort. Sure, it does work to limit the flow of things to any particular person or group, but that's secondary.

The primary reason behind this is what Filatus said in bold. If everyone did it, it would break the game.  If a character or group is camping things and another character or group comes along, that second group has been deprived, and there's of course nothing to stop the first group from preventing the second access to what they came to get.

So really, these rules are about being a good community member and having some respect for one's fellow players.  That said, it does not mean that if no one else is on or "nearby" that these rules are optional.

Oh, and for reference, the time commitment for the Deep is to help keep the resources relatively rare.  Shortening the time commitment would likely come with a lessening of available resources.

[lonnarin]

I never liked the time commitment for the Deep trip.  That being said, sleeping on the same screen that you just mined from would be considered camping.  Going from emeralds to mithral, to emeralds to mithral however takes more than an hour between either spot, and I wouldn't consider that camping at all.  That's called prospecting.  Just because it takes over four hours to reach the surface again does not make that hour-hour and a half any less an hour-> hour and a half.  To make such an incredible time commitment for a piece of rock to say one one mining attempt per trip, when you could potentially only get 4-5 rocks due to bad mining rolls, and when it takes 4 nuggets for an ingot which can then vanish from bad crafting rolls is rather... exclusive.  I feel that the crafting on the server, the journeys and the opportunities for the players need to be inclusive rather than explusive.  Because lets face it, every time we raise the bar, all we do is ruin it for the majority, and then one handful of the ultra driven who have less RL obligations will get work all the harder and get just as many resources as before.  Perhaps they will sacrifice RL obligations.  Perhaps they will be the only few that can manage to make the time in their lives to gather the CNR and create a monopoly.  The goods that they make will not be any more rare, they will be just in as big abundance as ever, but instead of many pockets, they will be in a few.  This leaves the average, or even the sub-ultra player feeling left out, bitter and excluded.  I don't feel that's what this server is about.  We shouldn't be rewarding those who neglect freinds, family, work and RL responsibilities over the casual player.  Instead, perhaps we can switch from manual chop chopping CNR gathering to some sort of daily quota model?  Make faster ways to return and travel, more transitions... perhaps even a paid-for caravan system which could tax their gold for a quicker access to the goods.  But 4-5 hours for a rock, I don't care if it's the greatest rock in the world, that's just hurting the gameplay experience in my opinion.

That being said, Sleeping next to the ore and mining it twice in the same transition is camping.  going to say, Mithral, to emeralds, to rubies, to whatever and fighting things for an hour or more at a time between transitions would most certainly not be.

Of course this is merely my opinion.  I've been here 7 years+, and that's a lot of time.  I know firsthand that the more time you require to do something, whether its gaining xp, getting resources, getting from point a to point b jogging thousands of miles cross country is less time spent RPing, and more time spent grinding.  Making exponential craft recipes that need 2 then 3 then 4 nuggets for one ingot and then making each trip to even get 5-20 nuggets last 4-5 hours only reinforces grinding.

Perhaps if there were coded limits on how much crafting xp one could gain per level per actual character level... or a refreshing "egg timer" for how often one could harvest a particular CNR per time period akin to wood harvesting, that would tackle the grinders, campers and the stock-pilers.  Still, I would rather see all the effort spent hunting down the campers be put towards making quests for the casual gamers to win CNR on quests.  I remember when Kurn earned that one ingot of mithral on Rhugal Keep's defense quest series, how psyched he was about it.  Sure I can go crit my way through the deep any night and get 20 nuggets a trip, but that one piece of mithral that I *earned* was more valuable to me than the 15-20 nuggets I chopped.  It was given to me by the KING of Rhugal!

Idea for harvesting alternative:

Non-Depleting CNR with 24 hour harvest timers and more reliable yeilds: Say each character can go up to a deposit and gather from each one once every 24 hours.  Each harvest attempt with a more normalized output. (1d4+2 for example, 3-6) Once they finish their daily harvest, the CNR deposit remains behind for others to tap.  Attempting to gather more than once per 24 hour period would result in auto-failure.

Benefits: Groups wouldn't fight over CNR, there's the same amount for all.  Just because a group's already gathered a resource, this would not exclude another group from harvesting the same CNR- less conflict.  Groups wouldn't camp the same areas, they can only harvest once per RL day.  Camping would be obliterated.  Players wouldn't feel bummed for chipping a key piece of CNR only to get one piece.  And most importantly, this would encourage trips to include more players, since more players means more CNR.  Even those players who couldn't craft the CNR they gather could then barter with the crafters and trade their goods for raw materials.  More CNR available on the tradehall.

[wild_down_under]

I never said run 2 or 3 transitions away from the mithril or emerald, rest, wait, and go back to the mithril or emerald. The Deep is a huge huge area. You can go to so many places, many transitions away, and "rest" and be considered (my opinion) far away from the CNR.

I guess I am trying to use number of transitions as a frame of reference because it is more concrete. If not, then it will be up to interpretation as to you are too close to CNR and that can be awful. For example, you might say the "start" to the mithril mine starts once you enter that hidden door. Another might argue it starts at the "fork." Another might say it starts once you pass the Humber Hulks. And so forth and so forth.

Is it better then to go down, mine once, then go all the way up to the surface before you can start a second mine? If you don't do that then it is considered against both the looping and camping CNR rules.

As for asking a port out of a certain area, isn't that like abusing a little? For example, you travel down with a group to fight and mine whatever resources. Then, because of "time" issue, you ask a GM to port you out. You are now bypassing all the danger that you had faced coming down. If you go down, then you should go up, unless it is in case of real emergency like all of a sudden really really bad lag occurs or you lose power and can't come back on in a day or two and by then your party is no longer there.

[Dorganath]

Idea for harvesting alternative:

Non-Depleting CNR with 24 hour harvest timers and more reliable yeilds: Say each character can go up to a deposit and gather from each one once every 24 hours.  Each harvest attempt with a more normalized output. (1d4+2 for example, 3-6) Once they finish their daily harvest, the CNR deposit remains behind for others to tap.  Attempting to gather more than once per 24 hour period would result in auto-failure.

Nice idea lonn...and not completely off of something we've planned for the MMO, in a way.  That said, the systems we have planned for that are vastly different. As we have said, it's all skill-based, so the amount of "stuff" one can gather/harvest/mine is directly related to how high one's applicable gathering skill is.  Also, crafting skills are entirely separate from gathering skills, so one can be a master gem crafter but lousy at finding those little sparkly rocks, for example. I would have to look up the exact details, but our systems also allow for the possibility of adding a "cool-down" timer to the use of a skill like that, so a character could not even attempt to gather more CNR if the timer had not yet expired.

Anyway, just thought I'd toss that out there. I'm not saying the CNR system in NWN is perfect by any stretch, though I think what contributes more to the grind is a focus on the end-results rather than the process of getting there and back...which is of course my personal opinion and does not reflect the position of anyone or anything else.