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Author Topic: Honesty and Objectivity  (Read 825 times)

Chongo

Honesty and Objectivity
« on: July 08, 2009, 11:10:16 pm »
Instead of responding to the sender, it sounds as though it would be best directed to everyone on the server.  This unfortunately degrades Milty's efforts of actually running something in a secretive IC fashion... but the reality is that if I'm actually to enjoy myself still on Layonara, this needs to be cleared up.  Otherwise, and I mean this very bluntly - the numerous individuals who seek to degrade someone's efforts, successes, and hours in game - by PM's, rumor spreading, and finding solace in the private exchange of assumptions... well, they continue to progress without actually doing anything in game.

The sender's very frank consolidation of the current questions is below.  I'll answer them in turn afterwards.

There are questions regarding the origin of these items.

There are questions regarding who gets the money and why.

This is where it goes downhill...

For those who know who is supplying the items, there are questions about the methods used to obtain them.

Based on already formed suspicions of how they were obtained, further questions speculate as to whether the GM is looking the other way just to appease you (Chongo) so you'll keep working on the modules.

People are wondering if you (Chongo) are just doing what you want without any oversight or having to answer to anyone. This ties into the whole recently-raised oxing issue too, which is unfortunately bleeding over into the event as well.

One thing feeds another, and the apparent secrecy isn't helping matters, and to be quite frank, whether these things are 100% unfounded or not, it's threatening to cast a pretty dark shadow over the whole event.

I probably don't have to tell you all that jaws are dropping so hard and fast at the screen shots that they're bouncing off the floor.
     

[SIZE=16]So, in turn:[/SIZE]

There are questions regarding the origin of these items.

1) Creatures.  A lot of them.  I'll get into this later.
2) Unique drop chests.  I seldom visit these unless I have other people with me.  They are smattered around the server in areas of 30+ CR, often much harder.  Maybe 5 of these things come from them, and if I wanted - it could be hundreds more.  Stop assuming.
3) These do not come from the fabled 'only the builder knows where it is' item shops.  I've made one shop mistake in my past.  I took an existing idea of the 'hidden shop', and made it with high-drop rated items.  This by itself bears no mistake.  What does is that I went there before others, or rather - with others of my own choosing.  I didn't go to buy myself things - I went to buy things for friends and players that were weak builds and I felt needed a boost before they DT'd out.  The mistake is in that a) it was done in a way that unfairly distributed aid, and 2) as the only person building areas, items, and creatures for NWN, it is my general, but recent to 3.2, contract with Leanthar that whenever something new goes in - I ensure that others find it first.  In hindsight, he shouldn't have had to advise me on the fairness of this - I should've figured it out on my own prior to 3.2 (which this was).  Now - all that said, it's moot to this raffle - there's nothing in there from that chunk, and as stated, any items purchased are in hands other then my own.  On shops in general, they are all fair, they are all balanced, and they are all well positioned.  Ask PC's in game - they are not well guarded secrets.

There are questions regarding who gets the money and why.

This is a good question that Milty and I have been figuring out.  Since it's a public debate over the virtue of such an event, I'm going to spell it out.  The original agreement was that Steel would run the event in a manner where I (Abiorn) would be completely hands-off since RL is busy.  I would pay his guild, and a significant percentage would go to charity - it just wasn't yet determined which one.  Now, Milty came up with a lot of clever ideas which the questioning folks haven't been patient enough to wait for.  Ultimately this ended up yielding a much higher amount of gold then we had initially projected.  The resulting idea for where gold would go was that his costs, which are significant with all the ideas going into this and the creative leveraging of multiple players in the community, would be covered... and then some.  The raffle proceeds, which with math you can see are quite high (and they're still changing IC folks so simmer down if you're still fired up about them) would be split between the benefactor of the event, and a single existing charity, mistone defense.

So, what I'd like people to consider is if they have enough knowledge of things to objectively speak of or criticize such an event.  The initial agreement was that my PC would walk with 2.8 million gold for an IC project he's working on.  2.8 million gold you say!!!  Gods!  What greed!

Now, as I've said rather harshly and reactively to the first person to come forward with this concern... this is whole thing is a gesture of altruism.  If I wanted gold I'd just auction off 5 items and have the same proceeds I would get from these 175 or whatever it ends up being raffled.  I could even name the it the 'Rich get richer' auction as it would have no opportunity for entry by all but the folks who have played long enough, and with the intended direction, to amass such wealth.

It's interesting to me because milty's very interesting delivery in marketing should've created a lot of IC hype.... but instead it's created a lot of OOC whispering and assumptions.  And I think the reason he or I did not expect this - is because we know the rest of what's going on for this... and probably found it unfathomable for such opinions to be formed.  Looking back at what information was available - it makes sense, and confirms one of the things I dislike most about internet communities.

This is where it goes downhill...
For those who know who is supplying the items, there are questions about the methods used to obtain them.


Right.  I addressed where they came from save for the creatures segment of it.  So let's be brief on the age old argument.  First, I'm sticking with a major point of disgust I have with the dynamic of our forum culture on RP.  

I feel that the merits and judging of roleplay and playstyle have always been corrupted by the ego of individuals who realized that the ability to degrade someone's fair efforts in-game on the forums or via PM channels would allow them perceived progression by itself.

Reread that.  

A lot of people have fallen into this methodology by which they need not actually put forth effort in game - they simply must comment on, degrade other's efforts despite ignorance in 99% of the cases, and provide legislation by means of the loudest and most persistant or echoed voice.  This allows people to find relative power, voice, and authority - without actually ever doing anything at all.  And if they are doing anything - this is allowing them a way to bring everything back to the scale their ego is comfortable with, where they feel good about themselves, and they are still a 'presence'.  I feel, that from the grass roots beginnings, the difficult bumps and bruises of learning to manage the 'good' and the 'bad' of large internet communities has bred a culture by which forum voice and politics are the only real efforts that yield approved power.  And this is an atrocity - it is a deformed contortion of original intent.

Reread that too.  Last time I'll ask it in this post - I promise.


So, the methodology of gaining these items.  Playstyle.  My playstyle has been criticized by a lot of folks, even folks that are my peers or superiors on Layonara.  And I'll be blunt, it's uninformed for the majority, and it's idiotic for the informed.

I've made so many posts about this sort of thing that it's ridiculous to entertain the same old arguments.

Roleplay is a role that you play.  It is a character.  Not a single person on this server can legitimately denounce my roleplay.

Playstyle, and it's definition, needs to be narrowed down.  I will call it what you enjoy doing when you come home from a long day at work or school or whatever it is you do outside of this.  Are there harmful playstyles?  Absolutely.  Sadistic and meanspirited behavior, and playstyles which betray your character roleplay.  I'm pretty sure this is it.  I think most arguments to include other things belong to the body of what I just criticized above.

Abilities, both for your character and within your own playing - are not applicable to judgement of playstyle.

When I built Abiorn it began from of an argument with a Layo staffer about the lacking balance between casters and non-casters.  I was shut down in my arguments.  So I at first built him to show the fault in these arguments.  I put a lot of thought into the actual roleplayed character - because otherwise it'd be a silly waste of time.  I figured it would be somewhat temporary though as I tend to believe in the one-character per player ideal (and I don't think there's anything right or wrong with that - it's just me, I like single focuses).  I'd have fun with him for a while, it was a quirky character, and yeah - I'd point out some mechanical realities.  And I ended up really coming to enjoy the actual character behind it.  I got involved in a lot of events that actually had some gravity behind them, and moreover I found a better character medium to develop IC relationships where the conversations ended up holding more depth then I'd ever had in a game.  3+ years later - it's the character through which I've had the best roleplayed experiences in my life.  And that's the goal of everything Layo should be.

And yes - the original build is apparent mechanically.  I can talk to any one of you, all of you at once - whatever you'd like - on how things end up working out mechanically.  And in this case it's not rocket science.  You have a 600+ HP, 75% concealed, hugely damage reduced, DC 44 caster.  Things are going to die and it's rarely him, even if I do play a bit reckless.

And the question I pose: ... does this by itself represent something wrong?  Is it malicious?  Is it not roleplayed as the character?  Do I not have fun with others playing it, and they with me?  And moreover, should these facts detract from the perception of the character? Far far far too many people on this server - they do.  And I think you should be embarrassed.

And moreover - should one be motivated to intentionally take 'weak' feats to temper some balance of mechanic?  Should this be a legitmate form of peer pressure in a roleplay server?  Should your mechanical power go into the overall equation of your worth as a player and/or degrade from it?  Is there an actual power median to which one should shoot for?

My response is... as long as the decisions on stats, skills, feats... etc - as long as they remain true to your character - everything else is a load of bologne for argument towards playstyle or roleplay 'worth'.  

And while we will all lose focus to our character, be it to a bad day at work where you just don't want to have to really dig your emotional RP teeth into things or just a situation where you can't focus enough to feel it anything more then half-arsed in effort... as long as you're keeping character at the core of your intent - everyone has different days.

And maybe the community as a whole disagrees with this despite what's offered above, in what should be quite thought provoking for many of you.  If so... well, I think Layo as a whole needs to do some thinking on what it wants to be.

Based on already formed suspicions of how they were obtained, further questions speculate as to whether the GM is looking the other way just to appease you (Chongo) so you'll keep working on the modules.

Well, to be honest, I've had a hard time working on the modules for the past three months - so you guys can all stop holding your breath.

So, reinforcing how they were obtained, I am not using inside information - nor am I abusing any mechanic.  The notion of inside information is difficult, because yeah - I have an easier time figuring out things like what items will work best for my character - because I've been through the lists a hundred times over trying to do everything from removing darn FR-lore items.. to rejiggering overall balance.  And yeah, when you build the creatures, you know how to fight them.  But I am laughing at two aspects of this.  First - I've made so darn many between this server and my last, over such a long period of time - that my memory is just plain scattered.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen the 'do we need deathwards here?' PM followed by the response 'heck if I remember... '.  I don't remember skins, I don't remember vulnerabilities - and I sure as poop don't build things to be weak for me.  Nor do I do the opposite in making them hard for me especially.  I build to the middle ground, with variance to give perks to every end... and that's that.

The things I do remember are spawn points, and things like 'this is how this thing killed me last time', or 'this thing always trumps my spells'.  And you've all got the same shot as I do on those things.

I'm not ignorant enough to think that building it doesn't provide a little advantage - but if I'm not acting on it in a negative manner, and I'm not actively trying to remember mechanical things (read: supersupersuper boring for me at 7 years into this game)... I dunno - what would you have me do?  Anyone want to build some areas?

So onto the last silly point.  Appeasing me.  I haven't built in months.  I don't know what they're appeasing.  I can tell you all with almost disturbing certainty that the last thing people on the Layo staff do in how they respond to my playing and working here is 'appease me'.  Staffers - I don't say that to be mean... but come on - let's go through the posts and emails.

No blind eyes, and nothing to be blind of.

People are wondering if you (Chongo) are just doing what you want without any oversight or having to answer to anyone. This ties into the whole recently-raised oxing issue too, which is unfortunately bleeding over into the event as well.

I answer to Dorg in such an annoying way that any 'freelancing' ends up causing dialogues that I find so demotivating that it's a wonder I still keep trucking on with this server.  No offense Dorg - it's the only way I can explain that one in no uncertain terms to the community.  And this goes beyond the steady pings from everyone on mechanical 'problems'.  It gets into themes and stories I've tried on my own, or stories I've tried adapting from the writing team forums.  One of you try pouring that much time into what you deem a work of 'limited-graphics-available' art and having it retconned.  Now, the writing team has to do what it has to do - but I'm just saying, don't you dare say I don't deal with oversight.  Everyone on our team deals with that, from all different angles.  There are no people on the staff that just get their way, least of all me.  Heck, not even Leanthar I'd contend.  Everyone has to deal with it.

And ox'ing.  You know what...  I once had a player test ox'ing an item I'd recycled into a new item in the toolset with new attributes.  I thought changing the tag would keep it separate.  I was wrong, and the person had a pretty good item in their hands all of a sudden.  And I said 'ugh... don't throw it out - just don't let that out before the next update so I have a chance to fix it'.  Was it wrong to let them keep it?  I dunno.  They'd just lost an item I could no longer replace.  Was it wrong to not go talk to the whole GM team about the possibility of an exploit?  In my mind - heck no.  It's like shutting down congress for an hour due to a scare.  It becomes a two month ordeal.

And that there is the extent of my 'ox'ing' abuses.  I've ox'ed altered items - almost all of which went into lesser forms folks.  And this whole notion just leaves me furious.  I don't need the 'help' that your conspiracy brains are hatching.  Just because I wiped the floor with you in the arena doesn't mean I'm cheating (and in that example I exclude Alantha as we're each batting 500 heh).  Sure, that's not the most tactful sentence right there - but you do know how that ends up making me feel right?  You deserve to hear it.

One thing feeds another, and the apparent secrecy isn't helping matters, and to be quite frank, whether these things are 100% unfounded or not, it's threatening to cast a pretty dark shadow over the whole event.

 I probably don't have to tell you all that jaws are dropping so hard and fast at the screen shots that they're bouncing off the floor.

I want to address the anonymous sender individually here on this, and I'd prefer that she/he not respond here and instead just think about it: "
whether these things are 100% unfounded or not"  ... this is where you and I get into it, every single time.  Either get to the point on what facts you have before you that are bugging you, or stop speaking with even-tempered indifference towards things that are very personal.  Either trust someone or come up with why you don't.

Back on point - It's sad that people are being negative about this whole thing.  You (limited) people need to wake up.  This isn't about personal gain, this is about breaking down the same junk system of 'only the wealthy' auctions and spreading out the uniques to folks that just aren't part of that crowd for one reason or another.  I don't care what reason is keeping you from that crowd - it makes no difference - the end result is that I'm sitting here and giving you a chance instead of just auctioning things off and buying an island.

And your astute observations have figured out the overall amount of gold?  Well... did you think about the economy and how finding a means to distribute non-gold wealth by way of items people need to survive better while draining the economy of a gold surplus achieves a bit more then you at first considered?  Did you consider the actual worth of the items in there?  Do you know one darn thing about the other events and perks of the event?

It's unfortunate on a whole lot of levels.  Milty's presentation opened the doors to the wolves of everything I have regarded above as the broken model of power in this community.  It's not his fault.  He was doing it IC and he had some neat marketing ideas to maintain interest over an extended period of time.

But then one of you had to start your PM's before he actually got around to speaking of the rest of it...

jrizz

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 12:30:54 am »
Well I just have to speak up here. Every time one of Chongo's PC tries to do something like this in game it turns into a OOC issue. So what I have to say is that until you spend some time with him in game then you know not what you speak of. He almost always runs with a group and except for a few rare times has never turned someone down to run with him. Yes his play style is not for every one he moves fast in fights and tends to want to focus on surviving the deadly places, RP still happens but at the right times. Also he is sometimes moody and grumpy but that is just Chongo :).
 
 As for things being easy for him due to his understanding of the areas well I have seen him die a number of times and I have died by his side many times. He goes places he can die very quickly. I remember going into an area with him and all of us just getting wiped out in two rounds by mindflayer blasts. There are many more times like that and many times where we had to turn tail and run like heck.
 
 As to the places he goes being his alone, well all of the places I have gone with him I have also gone with two other groups.
 
 Have I benifited from running with Abiorn, yes I have. It is always a fun time the RP always has me laughing and engaged and the fights keep me on my toes or I will end up in the void.
 
 Now on to the raffle. I have talked with Milty on this a lot and I can tell you one of his goals was to make sure that everyone had a chance at really good items. He has put a lot of work into this and into making it a fun and fair event. If you have some reason not to want to support it then dont go and dont buy any tickets. But please dont mess with everyone that wants to go and have fun and have a chance at some items.
 
 I know that in the past I have been a killjoy on some of the same kinds of things. I had to admit to myself why I was doing that. Just a few weeks ago another player/GM helped me to see how full of it I was. He helped me to understand how uneven I was being.
 

Dezza

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 01:35:51 am »
I think a lot of what this comes down to is that much of the server populace are not yet at a stage where they can access a lot of these areas to gain these items for themselves.

Chongo is lucky enough to have a close group of friends or companions who can meet at regular times and go out and explore these places each and every time they get together. He's not the only one either!

Personally I think its fantastic when someone has the opportunity to do it. I reside myself to the fact that in Aussie time zones we will neither have the numbers or the right character mix to be able to access these areas for ourselves but does that mean we sit back and brood and point at others who can and do go to these places and criticise them for it? No way! Just get over it folks, you may not be able to get together with enough people at regular times to go to these places but there are people who can! Let them enjoy it.

Recently for the first time I was able to travel with a few other high level characters to a few areas on East I have never been to before, either as a GM or as a player, areas I now know I will never be able to access without those sorts of characters again. But Im glad I had the opportunity and went, and yes we killed a lot of monsters and yes when you kill so many monsters sooner or later you are going to get lucky with some pretty funky items! And yes if you do this on a regular basis you are going to accumulate a lot of these items and one day you'll be able to have an auction too!

So, rather than to cast dispersions on others who have greater opportunities than you or I do just enjoy what you do have and what you can get access to!

Oh and one last comment to Jrizz regarding his 'RP still happens but at the right times'. RP can occur at any time, in any way shape and form, there are no right or wrong times really. :)
 

s0ulz

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 04:21:48 am »
I as a player have had a lot of contact with Chongo both as a player and with both of his more developed characters. When I say more developed, I don't mean epic levels, I mean characters with personalities, histories and agendas. Almost living breathing characters that come to live with Chongo muttering behind his flat screen and hitting the desk with his fist when people don't follow his lead. That's how he is, Chongo.

Now on to the topic at hand, Chongo, I know how frustrating this must be for you, since as you mentioned this isn't neither the first nor probably the last time your possible (most obvious source of conflicts from all of the Team) confilicts of interest escalate to this much discomfort and grief.

But I do want to give my perspective as to why this might've happened and how many different views there are to this type of thing.

Quote from: Chongo


There are questions regarding the origin of these items

1) Creatures.  A lot of them.  I'll get into this later.
2) Unique drop chests.  I seldom visit these unless I have other people with me.  They are smattered around the server in areas of 30+ CR, often much harder.  Maybe 5 of these things come from them, and if I wanted - it could be hundreds more.  Stop assuming.


First, some of the above hit the nail here in the sense that these chests are well placed and balanced and offer a reward for effort that might never be achieved with more randomized drops, however, this boils down to the fact that so few people can reach the chests. I know, because I have gotten a lot of the same pressure for myself and my guild until some events that eventually crippled us for good.

The problem with these chests is that people know two things: first, you built the chests into the areas - hence you knew right where to go (*gasp* even worse, you took your friends there); second, they're scattered in 30+ areas, to which comfortably you had access (and your friends as well).

You know me Chongo, I'm not the best with writing, but I didn't mean the above as criticism of what you did, but what goes through the mind of other folks that have never been in a group of you and can only look at the server status page, imagining what all those 30+ characters are up to. And you have to look at it that way, to understand the suspicions.

Quote from: Chongo

/.../ 2) as the only person building areas, items, and creatures for NWN, it is my general, but recent to 3.2, contract with Leanthar that whenever something new goes in - I ensure that others find it first.


This is very nice to hear Chongo and I'm certain it will shut some mouths up, because noone knew how it exactly went and well... my previous explanation was easy to concoct in one's head.

Quote from: Chongo

There are questions regarding who gets the money and why.


I don't know whether I'm blind or not, but I was under the impression that Steel's personality and persona as a whole was the reason for the whisperings. Now I hear suddenly it's about OOC reasons and frankly I think it's bad playership. I find it hard to understand someone would look at the list of great items in the raffle and go "Ah, clearly Steel can't get these items, he must've abused something or rubbed against Chongo". Who cares, they're great items even other 30+ characters might've not seen. Get over it.

Quote from: Chongo


This is where it goes downhill...
For those who know who is supplying the items, there are questions about the methods used to obtain them.


A lot of people have fallen into this methodology by which they need not actually put forth effort in game - they simply must comment on, degrade other's efforts despite ignorance in 99% of the cases, and provide legislation by means of the loudest and most persistant or echoed voice.  This allows people to find relative power, voice, and authority - without actually ever doing anything at all.  And if they are doing anything - this is allowing them a way to bring everything back to the scale their ego is comfortable with, where they feel good about themselves, and they are still a 'presence'.  I feel, that from the grass roots beginnings, the difficult bumps and bruises of learning to manage the 'good' and the 'bad' of large internet communities has bred a culture by which forum voice and politics are the only real efforts that yield approved power.  And this is an atrocity - it is a deformed contortion of original intent.


Wow. Just wow. This is a bold calling out. Easy there, Chongo.

Quote from: Chongo

So, the methodology of gaining these items.  Playstyle.  My playstyle has been criticized by a lot of folks, even folks that are my peers or superiors on Layonara.  And I'll be blunt, it's uninformed for the majority, and it's idiotic for the informed.

I've made so many posts about this sort of thing that it's ridiculous to entertain the same old arguments.

Roleplay is a role that you play.  It is a character.  Not a single person on this server can legitimately denounce my roleplay.

Playstyle, and it's definition, needs to be narrowed down.  I will call it what you enjoy doing when you come home from a long day at work or school or whatever it is you do outside of this.  Are there harmful playstyles?  Absolutely.  Sadistic and meanspirited behavior, and playstyles which betray your character roleplay.  I'm pretty sure this is it.  I think most arguments to include other things belong to the body of what I just criticized above.

Abilities, both for your character and within your own playing - are not applicable to judgement of playstyle.


This is the truth right here. Every player in Layonara has a different style of play that can clearly be seen through all of their characters. Whether or not you approve of this playstyle, as long as it's by the books, I say we should not judge someone for what we only have limited sight of (text and some VFX, really).

Quote from: Chongo

And yes - the original build is apparent mechanically.  I can talk to any one of you, all of you at once - whatever you'd like - on how things end up working out mechanically.  And in this case it's not rocket science.  You have a 600+ HP, 75% concealed, hugely damage reduced, DC 44 caster.  Things are going to die and it's rarely him, even if I do play a bit reckless.

And moreover - should one be motivated to intentionally take 'weak' feats to temper some balance of mechanic?  Should this be a legitmate form of peer pressure in a roleplay server?  Should your mechanical power go into the overall equation of your worth as a player and/or degrade from it?  Is there an actual power median to which one should shoot for?

My response is... as long as the decisions on stats, skills, feats... etc - as long as they remain true to your character - everything else is a load of bologne for argument towards playstyle or roleplay 'worth'.  


This I agree with. Again, similar to yourself, there have been alike accusations for many characters, one of which is my own. My view on this is that if you choose to play a heroic character, someone who really excels at what he/she does, why should I build the character with immense flaws. It's a hero, it's supposed to be better than it's peers. That's what puts him above the others.

Now of course, different people like playing different characters with various backstories, which include massive flaws or mechanic unnecessities, but should the players get noted on that? I think not. After all, it's the player who has to live with that character for a long time to come. If it's a blatant abuse of synergy or mechanics, sooner or later you wouldn't feel right about yourself.

Quote from: Chongo

And maybe the community as a whole disagrees with this despite what's offered above, in what should be quite thought provoking for many of you.  If so... well, I think Layo as a whole needs to do some thinking on what it wants to be.


Thought provoking? Sure. Does this help with your current situation? Not so much. It's something I'm afraid you'll have to accept, as long as you have any ties to the module, you'll be viewed skewed as well. Does he abuse? How convenient he knows that... etc. etc. I know what you feel and I feel for you.

Quote from: Chongo
The things I do remember are spawn points, and things like 'this is how this thing killed me last time', or 'this thing always trumps my spells'.  And you've all got the same shot as I do on those things.

I'm not ignorant enough to think that building it doesn't provide a little advantage - but if I'm not acting on it in a negative manner, and I'm not actively trying to remember mechanical things (read: supersupersuper boring for me at 7 years into this game)... I dunno - what would you have me do?  Anyone want to build some areas?


Again, I hope you see the source of the problem here. You know all of these things, but when someone who has never grouped with you only sees the results and knows the backstory, how are they to know what went down. Sure, you have a group along, but they are semi-permanent around Abiorn, maybe they're in on it. There is fuel here for the fire and again, not much you can do due to timezones, level differences and just plain annoyance of having to consistently prove yourself right even though you know you are so.

Quote from: Chongo

People are wondering if you (Chongo) are just doing what you want without any oversight or having to answer to anyone.


There might be a different POV here - while the changes you make go through the team, maybe you've hidden something, maybe you instinctively made it somewhat easier for your own character, maybe some items are tailored for your own characters, as you mentioned you do remember the lists and what is there and what's not there for your characters; etc.

However, even though the changes go through the Team in some manner, paranoia and conspiracy theories (horrible things for the human mind) kick in, and bang - Chongo is an evil mastermind bent for the utter dominance of his character over the world of Layonara. I mean, as I tried to prove with my response, there is reason for all of this disturbance if you look for them. It's just sad that this happens periodically, when someone (once again) feels that they've been rubbed the wrong way.

It is just a game after all... I'm sure Chongo has better things to do than make himself an even easier time in Layonara. Respect, Chongo.
 

Thunder Pants

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 06:01:11 am »
This sort of thing still comes up?

I suppose some things never change, ever since i came to the server (originally about 6 years ago) there has always been this same thought that the designers and the DMs have some sort of favortism, and that the DMs characters and their friends are given a lot of good stuff, or the stuff is gained under questionable means.  

Well first off, let me say that over the years i have been very close to several DMs both current and past, and most of the DMs today can tell you that Lue's gear shows that she has gotten no favors from anybody.

Now that that is out of the way, I'll point out that of course there is some slight divide between the builders/DMs any the general players, this is because the DMs/builders have access to maps, and can look at things that the general plays can not without sending their characters there and doing it the hard way. and since the DMs/builders have characters, many players assume that they use that knowledge to their advantage, I don't know if it's projection because that's what they would do, or jealousy because others have items that they want, or if it's something else, i don't really want to speculate why this comes about.

If there is some abuse with the builders/dms, then the DM team are the ones that should handle this, calling out players when you do not know the facts behind what is happening is both baseless and aggravating for the people you are accusing.

For the record, to my knowledge there is not, nor has there ever been any sort of favoritism or abuse by the DM team that has not gone unpunished by the DM team when it was found out about, and events such as that easily number in the single digits (and mostly result in banning, of which i recall seeing very few of)
 

davidhoff

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 07:47:39 am »
Ok here are some questions/concerns from a newbie perspective...seeing how most of the responses so far are from seasoned players:

1.  Congo said something about "Drop Chests": Are you talking about, for example, the chest in the Orc Fehndil's Fortress?  I wonder if that is what you mean by a Drop Chest?  If there are other Drop Chests out there, then that is great.  I just hope when I am ready, if not now, someone will pull me aside and say "Tralek, come with me, I will show you a place of great treasure"...and take me there.  My concern is that may never happen and I may never find out about it.  My bigger concern is that some players in the right "Group", whether it be "Chongo's Group", or someone else's, will have access and knowledge of these drop chests and while others will not.  This seems a bit unfair to me if it happens, but, as in real life, it's not what you know it's who you know.

2.  "Hidden Shops":  What?  Are there really merchant shops or special vendors out there that will sell you rare and exotic items?  I wish I knew where these vendors were so I could check out their inventory.

3.  I think it's great that Congo and Soulz have very powerful characters they like to play.  They should not be ashamed and I hope one day to be as powerful and knowledgeable as they.

4.  I have heard that Congo has a special box of incredible goodies.  I think other players who have been around a while may have similar, if not as good, stashes.  I have a concern here that we don't all have equal access to these goodies and that you have to be very close to one of these players to have a peek at their stash.  Again, it's not what you know but who you know, but still, this may cause a bit of anxiety among some.  Not sure how to fix this, cause it seems like it's that player's perogative to show their stash to whom ever they like.

5.  What items are available?  This is a bit frustrating to me to not have a master list I can go to and see what items (belts, armor, gloves, etc) are available.  One side of me says, well it's ok not to know because it leaves some surprise and IC there would be no list, but at the same token it's hard to best equip your character when you don't know what's available.  Maybe this is best left alone and in time I will grow in my knowledge...

6.  Since we're talking about items, one things that's bothered me is how some players have weapons that do like 3 or 4 types of elemental damage (cold, sonic, fire, etc.)(to note: these were not spellswords with imbue)... I can only put one elemental type on my weapon.  I wish I knew where or how they got those babies and if that type of weapon is avaiable to us all somehow?

7.  I think we need to cut Congo a lil slack here on Abijorn.  I imagine its hard to play a charcter on a sight where you are a builder of the sight.  People will always accuse you of abuse..and if not...Congo has to live with the fact that players may be thinking that way.  Sounds like he's doing his best to have fun and play with blinders on, but in the end he can't help but remember certain things that give him a bit of an advantage.  To be able to run with Abijorn is an invaluable experience.  I did it once in the Deep and we (*coughs* he mostly) crushed some real nasty monsters.  I just hope to run with him again and I hope he continues to keep his party open.

My thoughts,

Tralek
 

Dorganath

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 08:20:06 am »
Quote from: davidhoff
5.  What items are available?  This is a bit frustrating to me to not have a master list I can go to and see what items (belts, armor, gloves, etc) are available.  One side of me says, well it's ok not to know because it leaves some surprise and IC there would be no list, but at the same token it's hard to best equip your character when you don't know what's available.  Maybe this is best left alone and in time I will grow in my knowledge...

No one has this list.  You equip your character based on what you come across, what you hear from others, etc.  There's more to the game than having the perfect combination of gear.

Quote
6.  Since we're talking about items, one things that's bothered me is how some players have weapons that do like 3 or 4 types of elemental damage (cold, sonic, fire, etc.)(to note: these were not spellswords with imbue)... I can only put one elemental type on my weapon.  I wish I knew where or how they got those babies and if that type of weapon is avaiable to us all somehow?

As far as I know, such weapons do not exist, and if they do, they need to be pulled.

No one can apply more than one permanent elemental damage type to a weapon.  A mage or cleric can add fire temporarily to a weapon with any type of pre-existing elemental damage, and a Spellsword can of course apply up to two additional elemental damage types temporarily.

There is only one known sonic weapon in the hands of a PC and that was part of a WLDQ/ECDQ reward.  Any others should simply not exist, and if they're in player hands, then it is a mistake. There are some spell effects that can produce sonic damage but none that apply to weapons.

What I suspect you may be seeing in your combat log is that often, when there are more than one elemental damage type applied to a weapon, NWN sometimes shows the whole list, such as (Fire 8, Cold 0, Electrical 3, Acid 0, Sonic 0, etc...).  In this example, there are only Fire and Electrical damage.  The rest are actually non-existant.
 

Thunder Pants

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 08:34:26 am »
it's possible, for a character to get up to 4 elemental types without being a spell sword or such, but it's really not likely, if they have a weapon that by default add's elemental damage (say electricity) used an elemental rod on it (say cold) and then had a cleric or mage cast darkfire/flame weapon that makes three, and then the paladin spell deafening clang adds a small amount of sonic damage and you would have 4 elemental types.  however i'm not sure if there are any melee weapons that have added elemental damage as standard, though i wouldn't doubt their existence

Quote
NWN sometimes shows the whole list, such as (Fire 8, Cold 0, Electrical 3, Acid 0, Sonic 0, etc...). In this example, there are only Fire and Electrical damage. The rest are actually non-existant.


actually they show the whole list when a character has any sort of damage minus attached to him, such as the penalty for lack of food
 

Dorganath

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 08:37:27 am »
The elemental rod will generally replace any existing elemental damage on the weapon.

I stand corrected on the Sonic weapon effect from a spell though.  Forgot about Deafening Clang. :)
 

LordCove

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 09:37:33 am »
There are certain weapons...

I'll use for example Sall's sword.

It does 1d6 Fire dmg vs Chaotic ( This replaces Silver and Titanium. Adding either of these over-writes this damage )

1 point of Divine damage

and then 1d8 Acid ( as per the Elemental Rod )

Adding to this, as mentioned above, could be Paladin spells, Holy Sword, SpellSwords abilities, Deafening clang.. and even a standard Flameblade spell can be added to this sword to give it 4 amounts of damage.

All weapons are capabale of the 3 ( Silver / Titanium ... then Elemental Rod... then spell effect )
Rare weapons might offer the extra Divine damage.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 10:11:07 am »
Quote
2. "Hidden Shops": What? Are there really merchant shops or special vendors out there that will sell you rare and exotic items? I wish I knew where these vendors were so I could check out their inventory.


I'd like to find where the new shop locations are myself, because believe it or not I don't actually know where they are. :p

And yeah, about the Damage types on swords, read up on [LORE]Item Enhancements[/LORE]. Basically, you can have one "vs everything" damage bonus, and one "vs special type" damage bonus on the weapon itself. Anything else is added by a temporary spell effect.
 

Chongo

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 10:49:29 am »
Replying to a few points:

- Weapon Damage

'Exotic' damage types only occur on 'vs. damages'.  Damage vs. chaotic, damage vs. elves - things like that.  Now, the very rare exceptions to this are things like the default gloves of the hin fist and the like.

What's important to realize mechanically here is that we have a 1d8 rod system.  On one side it's core damage, on the other it's 'vs. damage'.  And it caps at 1d8 for the rods.  Now, rods overwrite in one of these two categories - so there's no stacking.  The weapons in game that have exotic 'vs. damages' (sonic, positive, negative, divine, magic).... these have a lesser cumulative damage potential then the 1d8 cap.  So, you get a less resistable damage, but less damage potential.  And... it is generally very specified where this damage is applicable.  So, while it adds some obvious value - it washes out pretty well in most cases.

An example on the more powerful side of things would be:  You'll get a 1d6 fire with 1 divine, both are vs. chaotic.  Now, let's think about that one as it's one of the best.  First, fire is universally the most resistable damage type.  In most cases at the level required, creatures tend to have a little fire DR... so at best, you're getting 1 fire damage on a roll of 6, if the creature is chaotic.  You're also grabbing 1 divine point.  Granted, it's not in all cases, but it is for quite a few.  You can apply titanium or silver to gain 1d8 physical damage to two races, but it will overwrite both of these.  You can apply a core damage rod, and that will stack as it's in the core damage category.  Your overall damage potential is lower however.  And additionally, the broken up damage types at those figures have raised the level requirement a bit in a system-contrived manner.  It's good, heck, it's great - but it's not out of line.

Meanwhile with things of core damage in the exotic damage types, they are lesser amounts.  The hin fist gloves are 1d4 sonic.  This is a level 2 core damage rod equivalent, with a less resistable damage type.  Which one is better?  Well... I sure as heck would prefer 1d8 acid to 1d4 sonic if that says anything.

- Drop chests in general

I rarely go to these.  If I wanted items I'd have a better chance killing large spawns of 30+'s.

Drop chests occur in every drop list bracket.  The upper brackets are 20+ and then 30+.  To question conspiracy at putting 30+ drop chests in areas that are 30+... that is a curious one to me.  You have to match the intended level bracket.  Has nothing to do with who has what character at what level.

-The Items for Each PC

As Dorg said, you just kinda find these for yourself.  There's rarely a 'best' package as there are all sorts of combinations.  I juggle and go back and forth too.

What I will say is that I will not generally ever deny someone IC commentary on the things they own, or what they should/ could buy.  I doubt other folks who have seen most the stuff out there feel differently - and it's not like any of us are unfriendly sorts.

This is a natural progression of a PW.  The upper levels just end up knowing more about what's out there.  And eventually a lot of them feel that they know so much that they get bored and just drop off to a new server.

Shops, drops, drop chests... the only thing I can say is that they are in areas applicable to their worth in regard to the difficulty of getting to them.  It is never easier to get items by trodding that far into the deep for one drop chest you know about.  It's a randomized drop just like you'd get on a creature of that set drop list... the only difference is it guarantees a drop.  Lot easier to just stay close to home and kill a few things of that level.  I usually have found scrolls *shrugs*.  The bang for buck equation is in full effect on systems of balance like drops - and it's all quite even and fair.  The only 'out of balance' items in one of these categories I can think of is in the Runic Anvil shop due to ease of access vs. item power.  And you'd better realize how big a gold sink that one is.  They all have purposes, they are all thought out with full consideration to mechanical balancing.
 

lonnarin

Re: Honesty and Objectivity
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2009, 02:58:07 pm »
Just got around to reading this one in depth.

I for one have never considered you to be in the least bit exploitative or above the rest of the server, Chongo.  If anything, you've consistently reached out to lower level players, shown them the ropes and taken them places where they would never have ventured before, myself included.  This "too much gold/items" constant grumbling is one of my biggest pet peeves; people should worry about their own characters and quit trying to freak out about the success of others.  What, are we all supposed to be socialist/communist now in order to appease others for our own success?  Abjorn and Ketibjorn are quite simply, awesome in power and scope.  Seeing them in battle puts me in awe, so OF COURSE they are going to pick up some decent items and wealth!  OF COURSE they are going to survive where others could not!  I do not begrudge them for their success, I quite frankly and grateful that they have helped me out as much as they have.

There's too much of a tendency here for people to generalize others based on hearsay and presumption on things they have no possible way of knowing.  Whenever I hear of too much gold in the economy, I cringe a little.  No, check that, I cringe A LOT!  What does it matter to ANYBODY how much coin is in a player's account, so long as they weren't exploiting?  And I KNOW that you are not an exploiter.  In fact, I've even observed you in-game telling others to avoid cheap tactics, so if anything, you are the bane of exploiters. :D

I appreciate all that you have done on this server, keeping it fresh and making it better with each and every update.  You have a heartfelt kudos from me in that respect.  You have never acted egotistical or exclusive towards the rest of the populace, have always been inclusive and humble in spite of your awesomeness.  So for any naysayers out there who glare at your coffers with green eyes of envy, I would just suggest that you ignore them.  Don't even give them the time of day.  The incredible contributions that you have made to this community dwarf theirs a thousand times fold, and they are quite frankly, beneath your attention.  While they're sitting there griping and howling in jealousy, You sir, are making this place better for the rest of us.  Never forget that!