Ideas

[Pseudonym]

Was just reading akata's post and Dorg's responses ... to be truthful, got me a little disheartened. One of Layo's longest serving players (and world leaders) obviously not happy about some things ... anyways, you can read that thread.



I really want to write a long, well-written post with lots of good ideas and an accurate, sensible summary of some of the thoughts that are in my head ... that said, I don't know where you guys get the time!



I was going to jump on tonight and had a peek at the server status .. again, only 2-3 characters on across both servers. I ended up watching TV and playing Bejewelled on Facebook. Unfortunately, that is becoming the preferred option more and more often - and it seems like not only for me?



Why?



I have my thoughts on the matter ... forgive me they aren't couched in loquacious (*nods to darkstorme*) paragraphs. Hopefully the gist is clear.



1. More scheduled quests please! I know GMs are doing it on a volunteer basis, I get it, I do. I did it for a couple of years and know sometimes you really can't be bothered or RL is busy or you'd rather jump on as a player ... but 2-3 a month is achievable, no? How can you incentivize the running of more quests for GMs? Give them XP for their chosen character for their time spent running quests? I certainly wouldn't begrudge a GM earning the same XP for one of their characters at the same rate my character does attending the quest they spend their time running. I don't know ... maybe others have got some ideas to encourage GMs to run quests?



2. Please change existing areas every now and again. Just a tweak, that's all I need. Does it take that long to shift a spawn two inches over? Add another goblin archer around the corner there, some warhounds with the hobgoblins there, a trap in the minotaur caves, a vampire in with the mummies, a treasure chest here, a carrion crawler there, whatever ... I contemplated making (another) new character the other day and had the thought if I have to run them through the same 100 areas that I have done literally hundreds of times previously with other characters I will seriously do myself in. I'd do it myself, honestly I would but ... *hugs his Mac*



3. Less rules, more fun! I have played here for over 4 years and I don't know the rules anymore. If people wanna make a goblin to join in on Lonn's gobbie night, go ahead! The will system and inter-character transfer of assets and house remodels and restricted classes and 4 CDQs to move from A to B and 2 CDQs to change from Y to Z ... I dunno, maybe it's just me but i'd rather play with 20 people, half of whom play as NG when their approved alignment is LG than play with one person who plays their alignment by the letter of the law. If someone is ridiculous with relaxed rules, kick em out ... but do the excesses and abuses of the past have to erect these impossible barriers for entry for new players?



4. More positions for characters! Ongoing responsibilities! Ability to change the world! I know this has been gone over numerous times elsewhere ... don't think there is an easy answer and I understand the lore books are to be released at some point and lore needed to be crystallized at some point and for various dramas lore has had to be re-written but it is a little demoralizing. I think Acacea has written about it elsewhere, all the challenges of the world are these new things that for whatever reason weren't a danger to everyone last week? WLDQs especially. I don't want to go into the ins and outs of all the WLDQs of the last few years but prior to Blood's fall the WLDQs run seemed to affect existing plots and people ... now it seems as if each WLDQ tackles a newly introduced foe so as to not affect existing lore? Fenrir's mithril-eating Balamti? Never heard of them prior to his WL. Daniella's unhappy God. Was it a concept that was created for her WLDQ? Alandric's child of chaos? Never read about him in lore. If other WLs agree, maybe this topic is better taken into the WL forum for dissection?



5. Re-attachment of DTs. Again, it's been spoken about to death elsewhere ... but again I keep coming back to how many of those players/characters now gone due to their character perming would have remained versus those people who remained because of the existing DT system? I'd put money down that the former is more numerous than the latter. Ark is on 9 tokens, if/when he loses No 10, there (most probably) goes yet another player.



Please read this as written from the perspective of a player who wants to get excited about Layo again. Do they read as criticisms? I don't mean them to be. Read them as from a player who wants to look at the server status of a night and jump on and go for a run with a dozen others on west or a different dozen on central.



Dorg, I don't need a response from you individually addressing these points, it's cool.

[miltonyorkcastle]

As a side note, the next update, which is coming soon enough, should make networking and finding other folks with whom to trade a bit easier. I can't really offer any details at this juncture, but I can say that I think you'll like where this one is going, especially in the case of your new character.

[Dorganath]

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

Originally Posted by Pseudonym                                           1. More scheduled quests please! I know GMs are doing it on a volunteer basis, I get it, I do. I did it for a couple of years and know sometimes you really can't be bothered or RL is busy or you'd rather jump on as a player ... but 2-3 a month is achievable, no?

I agree completely.

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

How can you incentivize the running of more quests for GMs? Give them XP for their chosen character for their time spent running quests? I certainly wouldn't begrudge a GM earning the same XP for one of their characters at the same rate my character does attending the quest they spend their time running. I don't know ... maybe others have got some ideas to encourage GMs to run quests?

You won't, but there's plenty who already believe GM players already get special treatment.

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

2. Please change existing areas every now and again. Just a tweak, that's all I need. Does it take that long to shift a spawn two inches over? Add another goblin archer around the corner there, some warhounds with the hobgoblins there, a trap in the minotaur caves, a vampire in with the mummies, a treasure chest here, a carrion crawler there, whatever ... I contemplated making (another) new character the other day and had the thought if I have to run them through the same 100 areas that I have done literally hundreds of times previously with other characters I will seriously do myself in. I'd do it myself, honestly I would but ... *hugs his Mac*

One area? not long.  Hundreds? Dozens even?  Way lots of time that I don't have, especially when you factor in considerations of balance, making something suddenly overwhelming, etc.



But this is something I've been wanting to do when time allows, just don't expect them to be common or far-reaching....and don't expect me to announce them.



Oh...and there's some new stuff coming, and low-level stuff too, so perhaps starting that new character with the healthy fear of death isn't such a bad idea.

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

The will system and inter-character transfer of assets and house remodels

What does this have to do with playing and having fun?  But if you want me to be honest, I'd just as soon say "no wills, no house transfers and no remodels."  The "barrier" to these things has to do with the administrative overhead it takes to manage them. You see them as rules. I see them as services, and provided for the continuity of RP.

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

5. Re-attachment of DTs. Again, it's been spoken about to death elsewhere ... but again I keep coming back to how many of those players/characters now gone due to their character perming would have remained versus those people who remained because of the existing DT system? I'd put money down that the former is more numerous than the latter. Ark is on 9 tokens, if/when he loses No 10, there (most probably) goes yet another player.

We have a way, but I assume you're talking about a mechanical way.  If that's the case, then you may well have a long time to wait. I'm not trying to be insensitive or anything...just stating the reality of it all.

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

Please read this as written from the perspective of a player who wants to get excited about Layo again. Do they read as criticisms? I don't mean them to be. Read them as from a player who wants to look at the server status of a night and jump on and go for a run with a dozen others on west or a different dozen on central.

Fair enough. But of course you realize also that some of this goes to the players. We have fewer players today, so you're going to have fewer people online at any given point.  Using the forums to organize something has been very successful in the past, why not try that route?

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

Dorg, I don't need a response from you individually addressing these points, it's cool.

Of course not, so I just answered a few.

[Unknown User]

Good post Pseudonym.. even though I think I felt pain to click the "thanks" button.



Just to add to the things you touched on...



GM activity.. I understand RL comes first always. (As it should!) I totally get that they need breaks and time off.  But if the "break" keeps going for months maybe they should step down or be removed from the GM roster? Maybe that would get a few more quest on the calender? I myself have never been a GM and have always said there is no way I could do it. But I watched my husband work all day, do schooling at night and still try to get his responsibilities as a GM in each day as well. So I know it how hard it can be.  So if it gets to be to much .. let someone else step up and help with the work load for a while.  



Sometimes looking at the character submissions make me cringe....  



Your are putting in for a character to play in a game.  Not submitting a job resume.   If it was not for the help of my husband and/or son with each one of mine I would not have put in for any of them.  There have been many times I have thought putting in for a new character but do not want to have to deal with the process of actually getting them in game.  



 It is just sad to watch new people stop in and put in for a character then see the response that they need to rewrite or hash out more details so they do not even bother.  I understand asking for the basics on the new character but is so much detail really necessary? Not everyone is writer.  We want more people in game playing and rping.

[miltonyorkcastle]

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

I was going to jump on tonight and had a peek at the server status .. again, only 2-3 characters on across both servers. I ended up watching TV and playing Bejewelled on Facebook. Unfortunately, that is becoming the preferred option more and more often - and it seems like not only for me?

As Dorg points out, we simply have fewer players, and legitimate reasons for this have already been cited a dozen times in the past, including the age of NWN, the cap on growth due to the limited amount of GM resources we have, as well as the common play-styles here. It's this latter bit on which I'm going to expound for a paragraph or two (or ten ).



I identify three types of "players" (and subsequently play-styles) we see here, and I'm sure there are other ways to view this, to label play-styles, etc, but bear with me as I explain where I'm coming from. I need to define a few terms before going into the player types:

-Mechanical Achievement: Just like it sounds, this has to do with gaining levels and gear. It also includes crafting and other sorts of mini-games that aren't directly related to story or social interaction.

-Social Achievement: This has to do with both IC and OOC community involvement. Things such as building friendships, IC marriages, and starting PC organizations all fall under the category of social achievement.

-Worldly Achievement: This has to do with advancement and recognition in the player world. Political power, secret knowledge, building temples, destroying temples, monuments in your character's name, being the best swordsman in the world, and new inventions are just some examples of worldly achievements.



1) The Casual Role Player: This player likes to pop in on a regular basis and immediately start interacting in-character. The type of interaction is not as important as the interaction itself. Casual RPers tend to have a variety of characters at their disposal (but not always), and play them according to their mood. The Casual RPer is often just as satisfied, if not more so, by social achievements as opposed to mechanical or worldly achievements. However, if the casual RPer feels that mechanical achievements are necessary to keep up with their social circle, he/she will usually put forth the effort to raise their mechanical level, if only so that they can hang out with their social group. Likewise, if the mechanics shift downward, say with a fresh group of new characters, the casual RPer is also likely to start a new character that can mechanically fit with the group. This is the group that laments the drop in number of players the most, as this game is a social outlet for the Casual RPer more than anything else. Casual RPers also find it difficult to attain worldly achievements because they can't always attend scheduled events and prefer social interaction to writing lengthy PMs. Any new IG content finds bashing or praise based on whether it supports the social atmosphere the Casual RPer desires.



2) The Event Role Player: This type of player seldom likes to just pop in and hang out. When he/she gets IG, there is a purpose specifically relating to a character goal- it's about the story and the character more than social interaction. Even when they appear to be "casually role playing," the interaction is usually part of a plan to further their character's agenda. These folks get IG for scheduled events like quests and guild meetings, but otherwise are rarely seen IG. The Event RPer stays active via PMs and posts and enough plotting and scheming to both excite and burn out GMs. The Event RPer seldom has more than two characters, and usually only plays one with any regularity. Worldly achievements matter most to the Event RPer, and the Event RPer will pursue mechanical achievements for the sole purpose of completing their worldly goals. Social achievements often mean little to the Event RPer, unless those social achievements somehow give the character an edge in his/her goals for worldly power/recognition. This group worries the least about the dwindling player base, though it is a concern, because they don't want the world to die and their achievements along with it. Event RPers use the video game interface as just that, an interface, and don't worry nearly as much about content additions/upgrades.



3) The Video Game RPer: This kind of player enjoys the atmosphere of a fleshed out world and dedicated characters, but expects a certain amount of recognizable mechanical achievement at a regular rate, and typically expects the story and in fact the whole experience of the game itself to be set within the video game portion, unlike Event and Casual RPers, who spend hours playing the game (writing CDTs, exchanging PMs, posting on the forums, RP via IRC) without ever logging into the NWN user interface. This type of player enjoys mechanical achievement the most, but with the added spice of story or social interaction. Of all the player types, this character minds "the grind" the least, and will happily slay a thousand of the exact same monster for hours. Killing monsters is fun, so killing a thousand monsters must be awesome, right? This type of player usually explores the world at a rapid rate, and attempts to "beat" it like you might "beat" or complete any other video game. When the game is beat, they move on, or find a new way to beat it (such as starting a new character). As NWN has aged, most players like this have moved on to better/updated video game experiences, but in a sense, many of us still play with this mentality, that the game is entirely encapsulated within your NWN login. Video Game RPers are most excited by new IG content and new areas to explore.



Naturally there is some overlap in the play-styles, some people fit into multiple player types (though I would say that you lean toward one as the dominant), and it's not unheard of for a person to switch from one play-style to another over the course of their RPing "career."



The team has tried now for the past few years to in some way cater to all three player types, and there are those that have (and continue) to argue that we should pick a type (without actually giving labels to player types) and stick to catering to that one type so that our resources aren't so spread thin. The Event RPer in us all wants more GM activity in the form of quests, the Casual RPer wants more people and a more relaxed atmosphere (such as easier character sub rules) for social gathering, and the Video Gamer in all of us wants more fun doo-dads and monsters to play with. We do truly try and give all the folks that like to play here, regardless of style, a good time, despite the limited resources at our disposal. Really, we need a team dedicated to each play-style, or each of the things important to that play-style, but we have one team, and a small one at that. I think you'll notice that as we focus on one thing, such as new IG content, other things get neglected, creating a pattern or cycle that has some measure of regularity: development, recruitment, questing, development, recruitment, questing, etc.



For the record, I'm an Event RPer, if you didn't figure that out already, heh.

[Pseudonym]

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

Originally Posted by Dorganath                                           ... lots of words ...

Dorg, thanks for the response. My post was not meant to be so much about ideas trying to increase my enjoyment but, instead, ideas on how to help Layo NWN moving along and keep it as a viable and reliable feed of people into the MMO. My original thought was, the team are doing themselves a disservice with regard to player retention and (future) customer service and how can I help.

[Unknown User]

Excellent Post.



On New Player Recruitment,



I certainly agree that the submissions have gotten much more complex than they were before.  Of course I typically submit rigorously awesome bios that get quickly processed, sometimes as in the case of Grovel's submission way back, the long bouts of silence and deliberation have been frustrating.  It took 2 months to get a response back that if I changed "wolf" to "warg" and "no elven tongue for goblins", that it would have been greenlighted.  Had I not already had other characters to play at the time *and not known how incredibly freakin awesome this server is*, I might have jumped to another server.  



I feel that while making for much finer reading, the increased scrutiny has resulted in too much stress for what it's been worth, to both the players and the staff.  Right now we have multiple people withdrawing applications due to burnout, and many races unavailable for submission due to Approval Team workload.  This is a dangerous combination, showing that there is strain on both sides which inhibits the process.  I miss the good ol days when approvals were no more than a few sentences long and PRCs were more readily accessible upon submission. See the comparisons below, in my 2nd post of this linked thread.



http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas...bmissions.html



RP never increased due to the changes.  RP never decreased after them.  All that cross-checking so many minor statements and snippets has done is to create better fantasy literature, and frustrate the non-writers in the process.  I recall my frustration when I would greenlight a CG dwarven fighter, only to have it rescinded and the player frustrated because he killed too many goblins in his bio, or when the process stalled because the submitter did not elaborate enough about the Dark Ages and how they affected them.  Consistency in Lore is great, up until it keeps people from playing.



If standards in submissions and CDQ requiements were more lax, the staff would zip right through them and we'd have lots more players.  (and that means active donors, as well as more potential active staff to recruit int he future)  I would rather log in to see a bunch of dwarven defenders that didn't have to take a cdq, then a select few that did.  Again, CDQ requirement requires active GM staff, more time, more commitment.  It has already been stated that the workload is too heavy, there's too much on people's plates, so the logical solution would be to lighten the load, lessen the portions.



On Player Retention,



If the Soul Mother keeled over and crumbled to dust, would that really be a bad thing?  So many times we're recruiting for a trip and keep hearing the same thing, "sorry, I can't go there.  Have only x amount of soul strands left and I dont want to perm".  Or I hear of a great unforgettable character meeting their demise, and their player drifting away from the server mere months afterward.  SS loss is demoralizing, and while it helps give some flavor to the RP of the server, I can't roleplay with my friends who don't play anymore.  I can't ever again drink with Cassius, invite Arkolio to dangerous areas, convince Skabot to join us in the Deep, join Varka against Rael, listen to the songs of Ayla Bineau, go gem mining with Boon & Voon Loom (the Bloomin' Loomin' Brothers!) or eat grubs with that little pink-haired girl.  None of this has been outweighed by the RP inpact of permadeath.  Instead, it's demoralized seasoned veterans who invested thousands of game hours, back again at square one.  That stings.  At that point, many gamers would rather try something new altogether than spend another couple of years just to get back to where they were.



Those have been the two key issues in my mind reading this thread.

[Unknown User]

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

Originally Posted by lonnarin                                           If the Soul Mother keeled over and crumbled to dust, would that really be a bad thing?  So many times we're recruiting for a trip and keep hearing the same thing, "sorry, I can't go there.  Have only x amount of soul strands left and I dont want to perm".  Or I hear of a great unforgettable character meeting their demise, and their player drifting away from the server mere months afterward.  SS loss is demoralizing, and while it helps give some flavor to the RP of the server, I can't roleplay with my friends who don't play anymore.  I can't ever again drink with Cassius, invite Arkolio to dangerous areas, convince Skabot to join us in the Deep, join Varka against Rael, listen to the songs of Ayla Bineau, go gem mining with Boon & Voon Loom (the Bloomin' Loomin' Brothers!) or eat grubs with that little pink-haired girl.  None of this has been outweighed by the RP inpact of permadeath.  Instead, it's demoralized seasoned veterans who invested thousands of game hours, back again at square one.  That stings.  At that point, many gamers would rather try something new altogether than spend another couple of years just to get back to where they were.

You know Lonn, for many years I have been a stalwart defender of the SS concept without wavering... but I'm seeing the wisdom in your words, as well as many others in the last year or so. It seems like it might be time for some strong consideration for change. This is not due to SS shortage on my behalf either, I'm still currently sitting at only one lost and have another GP after over 4 years RL. I have seen too many people leave the server and never return though, which is sad. From a business standpoint with the MMO it seems like lost opportunity for revenue too.



NWN is old and it might not be wise to operate as if the influx of new players is never-ending. Every new player we bring in and retain, and every old returning player that stays is going to become part of the base for the new generation. I personally do not think retiring the Soul Mother is a bad idea in that context. Do we want to start our MMO with 20 players or 200?

[Unknown User]

I like most the ideas here, especially those about the Soul Mother and having her retire. Doesn't she get tired of the same old same old. Perhaps we can promote her.



However, what I would like to see most in upcoming releases are some fresh classes. Layo has some great ones, but it seems most things have been tried before. I find that the diversity of RP comes from the diversity of those professions our characters choose. Some new classes could help add some new RPing circumstances. Plus, I like just seeing the mechanics of classes, how they work in the world, what they can offer a party, and what they can't.

[Unknown User]

Well I could have an idea there, but I'm not sure how coding heavy it would be. And I think it wouldn't be that popular.



No permadeath, but if you die three times in said amount of time. You get a con drop to something ridiculously low for 48 hours and doubling the xp loss of what it is right now.

[Unknown User]

as a replacement for the Soul Mother, why not up the amount of coin lost even going to negative values in your characters inventory and add a significant loss of XP if you die a certain number of times?

[Unknown User]

I don't think it's actually code-able to go in the red in game, true wise.

[merlin34baseball]

Hello Layo Fans,



As a fairly long time player I have struggled recently to log into the game. I'll list some of the reasons here to give everyone an idea why I just can't bring myself to log in much anymore...



1. My first character's friends have basically all permed or their owners have stopped playing, so now she's nothing but a glorified Inn owner. I log in to sell the occasional item, but I have no real RP reason to go out and meet new people, as she sort of leeds a sad solo existence.



(I know, some will say that she has to meet new friends... but there's a reason that she cannot that I will explain later (Please see points 4 and 5))



2. My favorite character has 9 SS losses, and as Lonnarin said earlier He cannot go alot of the places on the world for fear of perming without a very good group. So unless I completely trust the group I don't go. I refuse to be in a party that I have no idea how they opperate in combat. Just about every SS Chaynce has ever lost has been in a party due to bad tactics.



3. My play time is very erratic now due to a new job, so even right now when I might be inclined to log on and play there are 3 people on the server, none of which I would trust with his last SS. So what do I do? Read the forums and find something else to do.



4. I find myself grinding the only areas that I know he cannot die in, due to the SS thing. I am SOOOOOO bored with those areas it's unimaginable, but what else am I supposed to do? So I do that same ridiculous loop every time I'm on... NOT fun really. I know where every spawn is and exactly what's in the spawn. It's the only way I can keep my beloved character alive, but I guess is he really alive then? Not really.



5. Quests... I wish I could go on more, but I am unable to devote 3-5 hours straight to the game which leaves me completely out of any sort of plot related quest. Even when Daniella was just made a WL, Chaynce would have been there every step of the way with her, but I could only attend part of one session. Alatriel even told me once when I could make one of her sessions that I shouldn't come because the possibility of dieing was high... and I have 1 SS left... so I'm being shut out of his love's life because I have 1 SS left.



Some would argue that I should just risk it and let Chaynce perm out. You know what, I just can't do it after playing him for years, I just can't so I'm stuck fighting low level creatures for 5 XP each with him, which in turn perpetuates the cycle... That I just don't enjoy playing anymore.



6. Starting a new character... Welp, I have 6. You know what you do when you start a new character? That's why none of my new characters have gotten past tenth level, fighting in the same caves that I have fought in for years. Again perpetuating the boredom that I feel when playing now. Why would I want to go bash the same goblins that I have been killing for years? Granted a new character presents different RP opportunities, but... there has to be someone to RP with!



It also seems to me that there are certain groups that always adventure together... (which is totally fine) but if you have no idea when they are going on a trip it's basically impossible to meet up with them in game after they have started their journeys. And it seems that every time I try and make plans, something falls through and either I or an important member of the party is missing leeding to an aborted mission.



There is one reason I log in anymore, and that's when my son is over. He loves to play the game and we have a blast when we play together. When he's here I instantly have someone to party with and at least travel a bit and RP... but... him and I are in the same boat now, we have done the same loops so much that even he is bored with them and is losing his desire to play.



And I'm sorry, but I'm just not person to start spamming Tells asking everyone where they are and where they're going... it just seems unnatural. The best RP to me is when you randomly happen upon someone, whether it's a brand new level 1 PC or a 40th.



I've tried IG tells to people to get parties going, and frankly that doesn't work. Players are so scattered over the map that by the time a group gets together an hour has passed and that's half of my usual playtime, which leeds to guess what? Looping the same areas that are near by and quick to get done. And frequently I have been more often trying to send tells to get a group going, but it just doesn't seem to work. You get responses of... "oh I'm deep in such and such cave" or... "Wish I could but I have to log".



I'm just not the kind of player that can sit on a bench for hours and hope something happens. I want to be able to get in the game and go on adventures. Granted that means killing stuff, but some of the best RP happens at camps down in a deep dungeon, and some of the best RP happens before, during and after a battle. hat can I say? I like action with my RP.



I love Layo. Some of my best RP experiences have been on this server. My son was instantly addicted. But I'm finding it more and more of a chore to log on except when my son is here, and It's sad because I feel it affects other characters as well, the ones who know my characters. I remember how it felt when Tyrian's husband and her dwarven friends suddenly quit Layo. She was without any of the RP bonds that had shaped her into what she was and that basically killed her as a character.



Please know that I mean none of this critically. I have the utmost respect for everything that is done here, the hard work and the sacrifices that the team makes to provide us with this playground. I just wanted to give some reasons why I am (and have been for some time) frustrated to the point that I can't seem to log into the game, even when I really want to. When I really want to log in I look at the server status page, realize that everyone is on a huge run on central, and that I know no one on west...



Just a few thoughts, and thank you for reading,

Merlin34



Edit: I also know that I have offered no solutions here. Trust me I have thought long and hard about how to fix things and can find none. I only offer my opinion so that you enlightened folks can look at what is causing this for at least one player, and possibly someone will find the magic bullet that will restore my desire to play more, because I used to play everyday and truthfully I miss it!

[Unknown User]

had a thought on this, the whole soul mother issue.



I agree death needs to mean something.  but right now, regardless of your SM roll, you get rezzed, or your grave and carry on, or wait at most one day before logging on to clear death effects.  however if you lose your SM roll, you fear danger that much more and we get player attrition.



What if, as another option to the SM roll, you could choose death effects that persist longer (purely an example, two or three hours per character level, and set it so it's regardless of logged in or not) along with the loss of the ability to get xp during that time.  So if you died, either roll against the SM with normal death effects/headstone and ability to be raised OR choose to wind up at your bindstone and suck up the recovery time, no raising allowed.



presumably characters would still avoid death and stupidity; choosing that option puts them out of whatever fight they were in and possibly affects their group if they duck out (and their personal character and religious ethics), plus they are rp only for at least a day and possibly a week depending.  but their soul strands would be intact and for a player on the edge it would let them take a trip once and a while.



I'm sure there are a thousand reasons why this won't work but nothing lost by suggesting.

[Unknown User]

Good concept. Except for that before you were here I think. We had a very long restoration period. Where it was like 10 or 15 minutes per level and if you logged out of the character it was 10 hours. That didn't please a lot of players, some had left because of it.



Also, I would foresee a lot of demands on the gm team saying. Hey I pressed the wrong key or click on the wrong option and got a SS. I wanted the other option. When in fact the player -could- have decided to tempt his fate and lost the dice roll. If an option like this is set, it should be 1 made clear that there will be no reimbursement of soul strands anymore. 2 The numbers of the options should not be sequential. Like 1 and 9. This way, there would be no possibility for the player to press the wrong key.

[Unknown User]

Death does mean something.  You lose half your gold, can't play for an hour and wind up being transported back to a bindstone hundreds of miles away from where you died.  Depending on where you were and how difficult it was to get to where you died, this could potentially ruin your whole night.  Say it takes me 3 hours with a high end party to get into the deep rift and some dark elves cannibalize me, I miss out on the gold I had, the adventure of the night, my interaction with my friends, the xp I would have gotten, the CNR we would have mined and the 3+ hours it took to get there.  That means something to me.



For those who want an added RP element from permadeath, just stop playing your character after you die a certain number of times.  LORE even keeps track of this for you.  That way those who don't like permadeath can get what they want, and those who do can as well.

[Gulnyr]

So this isn't an RP world anymore, where RP is the key feature and is intended to pervade all aspects?  It's just Diablo with more classes and a writing exam to play?  I missed the memo.



If death doesn't mean something in character, it's not Layonara anymore.

[Unknown User]

not entirely true (Edit: in response to Ionn or Lonn or whatever that letter is).  Edit: the player has kindly informed me it is an L - Lonn!  



most of us don't do major crawls with a lot of gold anyway and we tend to protect our pocket-pickers pretty fiercely.



clerics and raise dead scrolls make the bindstone trip a great deal less likely, especially in those big runs where people are prepared - so your actual, most likely downtime is about ten minutes, unless you are in a low-level group without either option - and in that case, finding someone to help you back to your grave is not that difficult and often the group will come get you and battle you back.



your point was and is that we don't need the soul mother at all.  I disagree - I only argue that another, less character-permanent option would bring more players back into the game, but the SM should remain in force as a choice (I'd roll her if I were in that deep group example you just gave, and my other option was three days cooling my heels).  If we wanted to play a game with no death repercussions, using the bindstone express when we wanted to get home in a hurry, we could all go play wow.  screw that.  



and yes, if SM went away and all that was left was gold loss and the current downtime, people would be committing suicide by monster as soon as they had finished their CNR run.  oh yes, they would.

[Lynn1020]

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

Originally Posted by Gulnyr                                           So this isn't an RP world anymore, where RP is the key feature and is intended to pervade all aspects?  It's just Diablo with more classes and a writing exam to play?  I missed the memo. If death doesn't mean something in character, it's not Layonara anymore.

This is the same debate we always have about the SM.  There are those that want to keep her and those that don't.  They have said they will not be changing it anyways.



But this will never be the Layo we were use to.  Things have changed a lot since the announcement of Layo ending and the MMO. Like Milty said...  There are different type of players.  There are those that like to log in and run for xp and goods. (Which was really hard for me to accept when the rules changed and it was allowed.)   Then ...there are still those that love to rp.  I was one of them.  But I think the key now is trying to keep the few players that are left.  What is so bad about letting them keep the characters they have grown attached to and have fun with them while they can?  Would it be so bad?  If you lost Jennara and everything you have work for with her would you really just start another one?  If so that is wonderful.  But some just don't have it left in them.  To them do we just "Well ...really sorry about your character but ... On well just make a new one or leave."  



I know several that would still be playing if they had not lost the characters they had grown so attached to.  The server I play on from time to time now has no perma death system and trust me... People do not want to die there either.  The only difference is I don't have to worry about loosing my character.

[Dorganath]

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

Originally Posted by RollinsCat                                           and yes, if SM went away and all that was left was gold loss and the current downtime, people would be committing suicide by monster as soon as they had finished their CNR run.  oh yes, they would.

This has already happened in the past, far, far before the MMO announcement and even before the fall of Bloodstone.

   

Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

Originally Posted by Lynn1020                                           The server I play on from time to time now has no perma death system and trust me... People do not want to die there either.  The only difference is I don't have to worry about loosing my character.

Perhaps you would enlighten us on how they deter death on that server?