Implosion and Similar Spells

[dadunmir]

Automatic failure of 1 removed and an automatic save vs a DC 29.  Wow!  A mod of 28!  The base is a 12 at lvl 20 (for any class with a good fort save) so that's a whole lot of bonus'.  Quite impressive.  I can get Yash to 20 but 28 wowzers!  Aside from wearing appropriate jewelry and buffing CON on everyone, I'd say we were prepared as best as possible.  Though, I can't speak for everyone's spellcrafting skill.  I and Set had my SR of 32.  I think Xiao's is 30 as a monk.  The major bummer is that Xiao resisted and Set failed.  'Tis the luck of the role in the end.  Not much you can do against that other than throw your hands in the air and move on.

[Ar7]

I completly agree with Pan.

Thank god there are spells that can not be directly protected against. This adds some spice to the game, because currently a party that has a high level cleric and a wizard can make itself immune to anything besides direct damage and even that if they have stoneskin. These protection sometimes get so absurd that a mage seems like a kid with matches

[Leanthar]

"...These protection sometimes get so absurd that a mage seems like a kid with matches..."
  Isn't that the truth!

[Doc-Holiday]

just cast explode on someone who's about to implode... should work

[blonde]

Doc-Holiday - 11/17/2005  10:44 AM

just cast explode on someone who's about to implode... should work

LOL

If we had an explode spell it would fit perfectly as a counter to implode

[Doc-Holiday]

might have a little bloating.. but... should be fine

[Chrys Ellis]

I pointed out that the priestess was GM controlled not as a complaint that they did anything unfair, but merely as a defense to the insinuation that we were inept because we didn't attack the priestess first.  The fact is, the priestess doesn't normally run over to the area we were in, and it's dark down there.  If I had seen her, rest assured I would have run past the giant Iwas tangling with to try to take her out.  Unfortunately, whether she had sanctuary or I just didn't catch her in the darkness, I didn't see her until she cast implosion, at which point, of course, I ran over and took care of her.
  I just want to make sure I'm being understood about this topic.  I am not suggesting that every spell should have a counter spell to guarantee you're protected from it.  My only contention is that any spell that kills absolutely should have something that counters it absolutely.  Many people have pointed out ways to improve your odds of surviving this spell but, as far as I understand it, except for a very few epics out there, anyone else facing this spell, as prepared as they can be, is going to have to cross their fingers that they don't blow the roll and are killed instantly.  Unless someone has jewelry which makes them immune to daeth magic, but I don't think that's what Orth was talking about was he?  I assume he meant the jewelry that gives you a bonus to your save. 
  I know people differ on this, but I personally don't care for any spell that can take you out instantly like that, even if the chance is only 1 in 20.   If it knocked you down to 1 HP, even from full health, at least you'd have a slim, but fighting chance.  I suppose it comes down to a difference in game philosophy.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I will respect the stance of the shapers of this world, even if I don't personally agree on this particular subject.

[Chrys Ellis]

dadunmir - 11/17/2005 11:00 AM 
   The major bummer is that Xiao resisted and Set failed.

    Hey, I'm not sure I like the wording of that sentence. 

[Harloff]

Pankoki - 11/17/2005  5:25 PM  [orange] I said about a dozen characters could make a DC 29 save with their eyes closed.

 I think there are even more players that have absolutely no chance of making the save.  I must say that this is a though topic. Cause for a lot of players this aint a "save or die" spell it is just plainly "die", and with no wards this is a bit to much with DT's and all. however having no really powerful opponents is also a bit boring. But still all monster spellslingers have a huge advantage that players don't, they can cast some of the most powerfull spells damage vise (fireball cone of cold etc.) without harming their fellows. whereas PC wizards can hardly ever use these spells because it is simply to dangerous to party members. If a band of player ogres had a shaman that casted cone of cold like the monsters do most of the players would be in a BAD shape.  How about altering the spells from save or die (-11 HP) to save or die (-1 HP or -6HP) or save get be nearly death  (1d4 HP). I give these 2 possibilities because i can't see what i would prefer, in the midst of battle i think it is more likely to die to the point where you have to be raised if you have 1d4 HP.  That way everybody have a chance of surviving it and avoiding to face the cursed soul mother.

[Pankoki]

[orange]Nope, not going to happen. The people that should be facing those monsters with high DCs have the means to succeed on it. Of course most people under level 15 will fail such a thing, but they aren't the ones supposed to be facing these monsters.

[GhostWhoWalks]

Your best protection is a real tank.

I mean... thats why Rognar, Ta'k and Ozy traveled everywhere. And did all the things they did together. And were able to.

Rognar had a huge fort save. Ta'k had the high will save.

So between the two of them, there wasn't much that we couldn't handle.

Oh, there's something that casts Implosion.

Rog, go soak that. Tell us when it's safe. Or I'd use a summon.

He'd charge, after he gets it cast on him and survives, the rest of us close into range.


Would we have been effected in the above case? Possible. if we didn't see the priest. But we would have been protected as much as possible anyway so other than Ozy, who has probably the worst fort saves in the universe... we would have been ok.

But then... that was our other secret to success. We would be prepared for the worst case all the time.

[dadunmir]

Chrys Ellis - 11/17/2005  8:22 PM    

dadunmir - 11/17/2005 11:00 AM 
   The major bummer is that Xiao resisted and Set failed.

    Hey, I'm not sure I like the wording of that sentence. 

 Right, let me rephrase that.  I would of liked you both to resist the spell.  Particularly with Set having a slightly higher SR, it was a bummer that you both didn't.  No ill feelings intended Xiao.  Again, my apologies.

[Varka]

1) New update idea: make the middle bar disappear or make the text invisible.

MAKE THE “MIDDLE BAR WITH COMBAT TEXT INVISIBLE”

Why do I write this here?..because…


2) Giving ideas of what COULD be change in Layo is one thing… but driving it out till this far?

Here on Layo I am happy that things CAN be talked over and that is good. At some point though this can be too much….How much can you ask for as a Player here? Where does the line go?.Well that is up to every player to decide….but here on this tread….

3) My point:      What is Roleplaying and adventure?

Adventure: Well that includes exploring and risk…RISK!..hhmm…How can there be risk if you suddenly could prevent death from everything (spells)?

Suddenly Tetris would be more “risky” to play than Layo. Where would the thrill then be?

Reading the DC rolls – What does that have to do with Role playing? Further – as I was not on that quest.. well I assume that you killed over 100 drows and here you are complaining over one death from your party?
Sorry for the use of the word "complaining" but I don’t know any other word

What will happen if you met Blood? I would assume that he just have a spell that just kills you – just like that? Will that also be a problem?


 4) That’s why I got the idea of a new update: “make the text invisible”

   Problem: Need of water and food and dice roll for GM’s  - Maybe?


I assume there will be some folks out there that will feel personally attack and quote what ever I put and analyse every line… but I will not enter any discussion about what I wrote as english is not my primary language.



Pankoki - I am 100% behind you…
The XP system was changed (minimizing the thrill) and now this…I can only shake my head.

But hey thats my opinion  

[blonde]

@Varka: All i see is a lot of misunderstandings and wrong assumptions. I really dont see the point of your post, and actually find it somewhat offensive.

[Dorganath]

Varka:
  From a particular perspective it is true that combat die rolls have little if anything to do with RP, but they are a very critical part of combat.  If this were a PnP game, we'd all have to pay a lot of attention to what we roll, what are the DCs, etc.  They're an important part of the game, and having that feedback is much, much better than not having that.
  But, the case can be made for paying attention to DC rolls and RP.  Here's an example:
  Let's assume a PnP setting where the GM asks you to make a save vs. Will.  Let's say the DC is 25 and you fail with a 24.  In this case, the RP is that you tried to resist but the enemy won out, though ever so slightly.  If you failed with a 10, then you were utterly weak in the face of this foe and your will was crushed like a grape.  If you succeeded with a 26, then you fought this force and overcame it, though barely, and you were possibly even weakened in the attempt.  If you succeeded with a 35, then you met the will of this foe head on and repelled it with ease.  Your subsequent RP could, and should, indicate the results of your roll.  In game mechanics, it doesn't matter whether you save by 1 or by 10 or more.  A save is a save.  The RP value, however is actually quite a bit more than perhaps you have considered.

[Messy]

...Except that knowing the DCs of enemy attacks may take the risk/exciment out of combat, since you KNOW that there is only 5% chance of being affected. Even good roleplayers tend to metagame.

@Varka
For most parts it can't be done. Spells, custom feats and other custom effects can be altered to use custom functions for taking saving throws, skill rolls etc., but combat information per se cannot be altered or hidden.

Edit: Actually that is not true. Editing the dialog.tlk file and changing the dialog text might be a way to do it

[Chrys Ellis]

Varka - 11/21/2005 4:31 AM How can there be risk if you suddenly could prevent death from everything (spells)?

  *sighs*  I am only going to ask you to re-read the posts you thought you were commenting on. I never said I wished to prevent death from everything, just...oh, I'm not going to bother repeating it.  It's there, in my previous posts, clear as can be.  If you read my posts carefully, and still think I want to avoid death from everything, then PM me and I'll explain the difference between what you're saying and what I was saying.

[Messy]

@Chrys

Hi, I just reread some of your posts. What I think you're trying to say, is:

You dislike that fully prepared fighters (or whatever) can go down by a single spell, even if the chance is even 1 in 20.

Correct?

If that is it, I think you to some point are right. It is somewhat unreasonable that it may be an "all or nothing" hit. I am really no big fan of instant kill spells, though the effect is quite impressive and intimidating. I agree that players are special and should be treated special. Layo handles this just fine, allowing players to respawn in return for a little fatigue and perhaps a death token.

While death spells sometimes are "all or nothing", Layonara is definitely not. When your character dies, he is not gone. He can respawn and go out adventuring again. You have your second chance. Next time, push someone a good distance ahead of you and keep a fair distance yourself not to get caught in the blast.

The death token system adds just a little more risk to adventuring, which should be fine.

A few examples and ideas that could make things a little more interesting:

1. If a spell like Implosion should be "smoothed out", it could scale from death to hitpoints damage, depending on your character's saving throw, resistance etc. This way, it would no longer be an "all or nothing"-spell, and probably even more useful to casters, heehee. A high level character might not fear death from Implosion, but rather a large hitpoints loss.
As far as I remember, Finger of Death/Slay Living already has this behavior.

2. Another alternative is to make spells like death ward protect only against the first impacting death spell. That'd perhaps make the real death spells more feared and useful from a DM perspective.

3. An example from a project of my own: A custom poison system. The effect of the poison depends on your fortitude save. If it is low enough, the poison can result in instant death. There are two saves involved: A save vs. constitution (and fortitude!) loss and a save vs. death if your fortitude save is lower than 3. Saves vs. death never occurs upon the impact hit, but rather as a result of the longterm effects of the poison so you can always drink an antidote if you have one. It takes at least 30 seconds from the impact to the longterm effects kick in.

[Chrys Ellis]

orth - 11/16/2005 6:57 PM They help vs any of these: Circle of Death Finger of Death Skald Wail Implosion Wail of Banshee Prismatic Death Spray Weird Slay Living Aura of Unearthly Visage Howl of Death Gaze of Evil Death Pulse Cloudkill

  Ok, I'm not sure what spell the troll shaman uses in O'Taogor, but I thought it was Finger of Death.  If not, is it one of the others Orth listed above?
  The reason I ask is, I just died in O'Taogor from whatever spell the shaman cast, because I failed my fort save.  I had a fort of 15, and was wearing jewelry that should have given me +6 to saves vs. death magic.  I believe it has been stated that the bonus would be applied to whatever save had to be made, which in this case would be fortitude.  If I knew this jewelry wasn't going to work, I would have worn endurance jewelry, and would have made the save.
  Luckily, I didn't receive a DT from this, but I did lose 1418 gold.  I'd like to know whether I misunderstood how this jewelry works, or if it didn't work as it's supposed to.  Thanks.

[orth]

That Troll does not have Finger of Death as a memorized spell, it was most likely Destruction that it cast.