Author Topic: in game racism and real life racism (Read 498 times)

Germaine Lorn · « **on:** July 19, 2005, 09:12:00 pm »

Sorry to bring this up - but I have noticed that some players refer to the DROW as darkies. Whilst this may be "realistic" in a roleplay sense, drow being dark skinned, I think it might be a good idea to discourage this term.

My reasoning is simply: in RL this is offensive. As someone so correctly posted, drow hatred is a species thing not a skin colour thing. Whilst it is true that PCs would and could make comments about skin colour in reference to drow, I think we have to be very careful here.

Germaine Lorn

Zhofe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2005, 09:20:00 pm »

I have actually NEVER seen this reference ... though I have seen the reference "Dark One"

I understand where you are coming from though ... but I will not put an opinion ... as I don't really know where the line should be.

Ayreon · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2005, 09:29:00 pm »

I'm not gonna touch this one. *walks away with hands up*

hehe

k, one edit, i can't restrain :

this thread is utterly silly, especially the whole bleeding hearts attitude.

Diamondedge · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2005, 09:39:00 pm »

*cricks his knuckles* Okay, here yah go...

I believe "Darkie" or "Darkies" as my character has so aptly named the dark elf race, is totally reasonable and shouldn't be banned from the saying of. My reasoning? He calls elves Elfies. He'll call Dark Elves Darkies.

It's purely RP, mind you, and I have no problem what so ever with anyone of African descent in the slightest.

Therefore, Turor shall continue running around, now that you have it in your head that it is purely RP, calling drow Darkies, or whatever else comes to mind. Perhaps Scumbucket shall be the next one.

Germaine Lorn · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2005, 10:18:00 pm »

Oh dear - missed the point I think. Elfies has never been used in RL. I also never asked it to be banned. The idea was to show some respect.

Is very easy to say no offense if it doesn't offend YOU, however that doesn't mean it doesn't offend anyone else. Do you call mummies ragheads?

Its just roleplaying? Just a joke? It may be innocent but it is very easy for someone who IS racist to use roleplaying as an excuse.

Terms such as "Raping monsters" can be explained in terms of roleplay, but they may upset people on the server, so they avoided. Please have the good sense to see that the same applies to the above.

KageKeeper · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2005, 10:24:00 pm »

Germaine has a point I think.

If a term is offensive to *anyone* then that term should not be used.

Obviously within reason. The term "darkie" does have a RL connotation that is highly offensive. Perhaps it is best if it is not used to describe a race of characters in game.

Is that too much to ask?

Etinfall · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2005, 10:33:00 pm »

I have always thought dark ones and darkers and I suppose darkies was referring to the underdark.

Vyris · « **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2005, 10:39:00 pm »

(Insert my opinion, only my opinion disclaimer here)
I am kinda confused...

If he had been referring to another PC who was playing a dark skinned HUMAN character I think you would have a case for racism, and unless he happens to know the specific ethnicity of the RL person behind the PC I would have to assume it's his characters RP way of voiceing his IC racial bias against the Drow race. I personally don't see anything wrong with it.

I seem to get the impression that for some folks the line between in-game events and RL events has a bit more overlap than for myself. Cant we just assume that if someone is referring to someone else on the game as 'darkie' and that person happens to be a drow that it's RP? Next we're going to have an approved list of acceptable terms and a week long course in gendo-racial sensitivity. Might as well rename the place Politically Correctonara. Aside from a few people who play here that I KNOW I haven't got a clue whether the other person is black, white, asian, mexican, iranian, botswanan, zulu, swiss, czec, lithuanian, ukranian, chineese, japaneese, leboneese, portuguese, frickazee or zip-de-do or any poairing of any of millions of other possible etnic combinations, nor do I care one iota, and I bet 99.99999999999% of anyone else here doesn't either.

But I bet we're pretty safe, for the most part people that are interested in RP are intelligent, open-minded , literate and educated. Not your typical skin-head.

If you honestly think it was offensive file a grievance with Rhizome, if he can't find a diplomatic solution to it than I'm betting it's a lose/lose situation.

Vyris

Zhofe · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2005, 10:54:00 pm »

On the same token, we must now call Dwarves "Altitude Challenged" ...

At first, I supported Germaine's point totally ... but once the subject of raping monsters and that anything offensive should be avoided set me off a bit.

First off, a possible racial slur that is easily enough explained in a tell, has absolutly no comparison to a violent physical action that leaves scars both mental and physical for life. There is a major difference in the level of personal violation between a mean word and a violent act ... Now, burning crosses on Drow lawns, lynching them on sight, or just plain beating them to death whenever possible I could see as making this comparison. Especially if all the drow haters started running around in white robes ... but I won't get into that.

Secondly, whether the player is actually racist or not is none of our business really. Mind you, I am not saying that racism is good, but, if the player does not allow that to color his actions here, then it shouldn't matter as far as server rules go.

Thirdly, I do infact believe that a better term than "darkies" could be used for Drow. Honestly, I was a bit surprised when I heard about it, and just thought you were being a bit silly, but since the player who does this confirmed it, I can throw that voluntary ignorance out the window. I also however think it serves as a good parralell into what the Drow are supposed to be, that is, universally hated. It makes sense to pull on real life experience to create such a hate against a race created for the sole purpose of being hated. However, I won't try and force, or even request such a changein a characters speech for one simple reason.

It is HIS problem what his beliefs/practices/ideals are. Not mine.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really care what you say/do/talk about around me. I have the option of ignoring you, or of simply having a different opinion. If the person next to you is a stupid biggoted jerk, chances are you can't change him anyway, and making him censor himself is just making him angrier and more biggoted, and when he finally gets tired of being censored, bad things will happen.

Now ... go enjoy your role-playing, and try to figure out which side I am on in this arguement ... I'll be workin on the latter for atleast a week now ...

Acacea · « **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2005, 11:23:00 pm »

Thank you Vyris! I deleted at least four replies trying not to rant, because I can get carried away.

Acacea also happily refers to them as darkies, and she is not even the loud mouthed drow-spitting dwarf. She's not an automatic drow hater (her priorities are as such that if they're okay to her and are fun to be around, it's all good), it's just that they're, you know. Dark skinned. Dark elves. From the underDark. But I'm explaining her INgame tendencies that people may find prejudiced IN game.

I agree that better terms can be used for them, and that more "enlightened" people than her and the loudmouth would be more polite, but the fact that people want to cross that into real life is a little strange. Especially because the first post made about it is not even to complain about being offended (which I still think would be silly and could be explained), but to be afraid of offending someone.

"Garent! Help! Darky attack, darky attack! *mimes being shot with arrow and falls down* Shot by the darkies! ...What, you're just going to walk away? Argh!"

Frankly, if it's that easy, I think everyone could use a little offending. (although this isn't the place for it, of course.) I get some on a daily basis and it's done wonders for me.

(Hah? Guess not.)

Edit: But if people go for this, I would also now move that halflings and gnomes no longer be referred to as "wee" for both implying that they are in some way deficient by their lack of stature (also don't say "lack" of stature like they're missing something) and for bathroom giggles reasons. Don't say Vertically Challenged, either. Just pretend there is no difference. Seriously.

Second edit: I wouldn't have felt that I needed to say this before this thread, but by the way, no I don't judge people by their race/appearance/gender/even species, but rather on the "Are you an idiot, or not?" scale. *grins* I don't find enough people in the "not" to limit myself! *practical?* (Well, with the added edits, I've gone and made a rant anyway. Hurray! Acacea's owner is not as well liked as Acacea!)

Harlas Ravelkione · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2005, 12:35:00 am »

*points up* What Vyris said.

Harlas

RouterBlade · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2005, 12:42:00 am »

Vyris spoke for me

Id agree with you germaine if one called a dark human "darkie" but calling a drow darkie is just playful or good RP in my eyes
my opinion of course

Thunder Pants · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2005, 01:26:00 am »

you can't call halflings vertically challenged though, because they are the proper hight it's you silly humans that are too tall

Rehevkor · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2005, 02:19:00 am »

The terms used are of no importance; all that's significant is the emotion behind them. Think of the dreaded "N" word, and of how it can be used with no racial significance whatsoever. Some people (black or white) use it as a sort of amiable slang greeting. The use and the person using it give the word weight, not the word itself.

Racism has special significance in D&D environments because, in some cases (orcs, goblins, drow, etc) such generalizations can actually be accurate. Drow in Hlint shouldn't be killed on sight, but they are members of a race that is predominantly evil in nature, which should also be taken into consideration. In RL, there is no similar situation; people are evil, not entire races. If, in the course of RPing in-character racism towards any race, the players get a little wound up and push too hard, one of them (or a bystander) should have the good sense to send a tell to get things back on track.

This can also be done in character. Gretchen recently witnessed an argument in Hlint between a couple of her fellow dwarves and a drow that seemed likely to end in violence. She was able to defuse the argument and help end the whole situation reasonably (and with some damned fine RP from all involved). She wasn't able to disabuse the two dwarves of their distrust of drow, but she did get them to promise not to provoke them quite so much in Hlint.

twidget658 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2005, 02:45:00 am »

"...Politically Correctonara..."

Now that is funny, I don't care who you are. If you can't laugh at that...

*Walks away laughing at the Vyris*

Ar7 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2005, 03:04:00 am »

Sheeesh this is even worse than the law suit to ban the terms "master" and "slave" in the computer hardware vocabulary. Seriously people, it is a game....

Frendh · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2005, 03:32:00 am »

yeah, what Ar7 said. Give it a break. If I see a pink guy, I'll likely
call him Pinky. If I see black guy I'll likely call him blacky.
It's a game with killing and murder in mass, some racism between
the races shouldn't really matter.

People have been calling dwarves names for their size for like forever,
so a color thing for a drow(who are in general utterly hated) doesn't
even stop me to think for a split second to think about if I may hurt
someones feelings when calling the drow darky, blacky, heavy mascara-elf
or whatever.

If you choose to play drow, expect hate and racism or go play another race.
Simple as that.

Dorganath · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2005, 06:09:00 am »

Disclaimer: The following is my opinion alone and does not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the Layonara GM Team, the Management or anyone else in an official capacity.

Here's the deal, folks:

It's misguided and dare I say wrong to apply 21st Century Earth perspectives and morality to a mystical fantasy world.

For crying out loud....we are all (well, most of us are) running around and killing sentient creatures with fully-formed languages, societies, and so forth.

In the real world, racial/ethnic stereotypes and prejudices have been allowed to thrive for one very basic reason....because "they" look different. People have an inherent distrust of that which is different, and unfortunately, in the weak-minded, that is enough cause for lies, mistrust and even hate. But in reality, there is no accurate description of white people as a collective group, or black people as a collective group or asian people as a collective group. Each group has its share of honest, hard-working people, scholars, criminals, good people, bad people and so forth. There is really no "archetype" for any one group. Stereotypes yes, archetypes no. In reality, the only true difference between the peoples of this world is their appearance.

But Layonara is not the real world. D&D is not the real world. NWN is not the real world. This is a (pay attention...important word coming) fantasy setting, populated by people, creatures and beasts that only exist on paper and in legend in the real world. And unlike the real world, each race IS archetypical. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but as a society, each racial group does in fact fit a particular mold. Elves, especially Gray Elves, are aloof and snooty, with fair features and nimble movements. Dwarves are a proud race, taking pride in their prowess in combat, the drinking of ales and of course their beards while making up for their short stature by a generally rough-around-the-edges attitude about....pretty much everything. Halflings are...well, halflings

. Each race shares a common set of characteristics, both physical and societal, that applies to arguably 99% of their total population.

Which brings us to the Drow...As a society, they're evil. Again...EVIL. They're treacherous. Their society is one of mistrust, violence, alliances of convenience and eternal struggles for power. The rewards are hard-fought, and the price of failure is severe. The Drow society actually takes conscious steps to weed out weakness (i.e. goodness) in its population. There are reasons the surface races (and some Underdark races) hate and fear the Drow, but NONE of those reasons have anything to do with their skin color. That is merely a convenient way to identify them.

Which brings us to the term "darkie". OK, here on Earth, that particular label is about 50 years out of vogue and reflects an attitude of a less-elightened era....one marked by ignorance and fear of differences. That term has no place in the year 2005 on Earth.

But in 1386 on Layonara....why not?

Let's remember folks that we're playing characters within a fantasy setting. The knowledge, judgement and morality that we possess here in the real world are not necessarily present in this fantasy setting. We are playing characters, and those characters grew up in THAT society....not ours here in the real world.

Now, if you as a player have a good reason to play your character as being blind and accepting to all races and to be a champion of equality and treating folks as people and not as a skin color, ear shape or height, then by all means go right ahead and do it. But it is not wrong to hate and fear the Drow, because the Drow as a society are evil. This is not the perception of a few ignorant individuals...it's a fact...at least as much of a fact as can be in a fantasy environment.

All this talk lately of whether one should or shouldn't be verbally abusive to Drow, whether it's right to judge them on skin color and so forth (again applying modern day, real world morality) is really missing the mark. There's only really two "shoulds" in all of this:

Everyone should play their character.

Everyone should remember that this is a game.

Edit: And just so everyone's clear, it's unlikely you'd ever hear a character of mine use the term "darkie". It's much easier to spit out the word "Drow" laden with venom and hatred. But there are IC reasons why my character wouldn't say "darkie". Primarily, he'd never even think of it.

teefal · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2005, 06:09:00 am »

both zerpa and I were put off by a halfing repeatedly using the term "darkie" last night. Perhaps it has to do with where you live, but "darkie" is definitely used as a pejorative against african-americans, as would "spook", etc. While not as reviled as the N word, it's not a nice thing to say. Try it out yourself, ask a RL black couple if they spend most of their time with other "darkies" or not.

We assumed the halfing didn't know the RL term. Now as I read people defend the use of it, it's disappointing.

Ar7 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2005, 06:24:00 am »

Quote

teefal - 7/20/2005 6:09 AM

both zerpa and I were put off by a halfing repeatedly using the term "darkie" last night. Perhaps it has to do with where you live, but "darkie" is definitely used as a pejorative against african-americans, as would "spook", etc. While not as reviled as the N word, it's not a nice thing to say. Try it out yourself, ask a RL black couple if they spend most of their time with other "darkies" or not.

We assumed the halfing didn't know the RL term. Now as I read people defend the use of it, it's disappointing.

Yes it is insulting if one man calls another man "darkie" in real life, only because of his skin colour. But honestly how is it insulting if a....please pay serious attention to every word here...an imaginery halfling in a fantasy world calls another imaginery character "darkie"? Please tell me, how was it insulting to you as a person? The term "darkie" was not aimed against you as a person in absolutly no way.

Honestly, I understand that for some of you this is a serious issue, but it simply makes me laugh. I am not ignorant, I know what racism is and how serious it is, but this whole topic is plain silly.