in game racism and real life racism

[teefal]

okay, so if there was a race in game called Nighouls, and people called them "Niggers", in character, then you'd be fine with it?  

Again, this is not about tolerance of Drow in game.  This is about real life humans, and how words can hurt whether you have a rationalization or not.

googled it: http://www.answers.com/darkies

[Gilrod]

I believe Germaine and teefal have a valid point.

I fulllly realize the RP point of view and that Layonara is NOT the real world.

But the truth is, the term "darkie' is highly offensive term in the United States.  If you do not think so, please ask an African-American how they would feel if it came up in conversation.  Regardless of how you RP the phrase in Layonara, the truth is that the word invokes powerfully negative emotions in some people in real life even when they just hear it.  They may be good sports in Layonara and not say anything or complain when they read it in game, but that does not stop them from feeling the negative emotion that wells up inside.

I just do not feel that the term is necessary enough in the context of Layonara (you can come up with another term if you want) to justify possibly ruining another player's good time for the evening because of cultural insensitivity.  I don't subscribe to the policitically correct view of the world entirely.  There are some forums where discussion of heated issues of the real world that invoke intense emotions should be vented in an unedited manner, but this IS A GAME and should be fun for all players.  Some level of cultural sensitivity should be employed.

Again, I just do not think the benefit to roleplay is worth the benefit.  How do players who use that word feel about using it when it makes another player (not character) feel upset or pull him out of the fantasy world he is enjoying back to the ugliness of the real world.  I would not feel right about disrupting his fun.  I would draw an analogy to swearing not being allowed on Layonara for many of the same reasons.  In many households across the United States, "darkie" is a swear word.

Things to think about, Just my to cents...

[Harloff]

If racism and degrading language could be stopped by banning words, it would have been years ago. It is a fact of life that people of different political observation, religions, colours, etc. clash ever so often blaming each other for everything going wrong. Probably because it is easier to blame someone else than to admit that you are doing something wrong yourself. One of the effects is that degrading languages exist between these different groups. But it will always exist no matter what we do, which can be illustrated by a simple example.

E.g. Denmark needed workers in the 60’s and imported Turks to do it, they where at that time termed “foreign workers” for obvious reasons. Years later this term had become negative and were replaced by “immigrants” and children of these immigrants where termed “2nd and 3rd generation immigrants” still a logical choice even though it would become more and more difficult as more generations came. Again this become a negative and degrading and was replaced by “people with other ethnic origin than Danish”. The point is that even though all off these terms are correct and not offensive in any way they where used degrading by some and was abandoned due to political correctness. I bet that in ten years this last term will be replaced by something even longer.

Furthermore, it is a fact that a Negro has a darker skin than the rest of the human population, and it is therefore logical to refer to a Negro as dark, black, brown (brownie?) etc. as with the Europeans who have been referred to as “the white man” which is not always meant as something positive, to my opinion pink would be a better description though. To my opinion there is no way around the fact that we need to have names for different ethnic groups, and that these names will be used in a degrading way by some, we just have to live with it and ignore the ones who do.

[Plagues7]

If you are offended by some one role playing and using the term "darkie" to describe drow, or offended when some role plays anger toward PC goblins, orcs, half-giants, etc. then you may want to take a break from the game.  This is fantasy.  This is a game.  It is role play.  The GM staff has made it very clear that playing certain races have hinderances.  Racism is one of them.  From my experience the RP on the server regarding the distrust/hatred between the races has been kept in check and been in good RP taste.

I am VERY confident that if someone was taking it a bit far, and the offended player sent a tell and asked for the person to lay off... that person would.  And if they truly were out of line the GM staff would take care of the situation.

As a goblin player I enjoy when a person first shows distrust and anger towards my character.  It makes for good RP for them to learn to trust him or not.  If someone wanted to hate him just because he was goblin I'd take no offense.  Would that be racism?  Yes.  Is racism wrong?  Yes, but it can make for some good RP in a fantasy setting.

Just my 2 cents.

[Xerina]

Well I look at it this way Sony EQ/EQ2 has way way way more players, Sony is way more conserned about PC then we are and the company and EQ community call Dark Elves Darkies and I don't think their has ever been a single complaint for the MILLIONS of people that have played EQ. Why should we assume the few people playing here are going to be offended? As stated above most here are more intelligent and interested in RP and able to seperate IC from RL then the typical EQ player. I really hope we are not going to say the EQ community is more mature and better Role players then the average Layo player.

My characters have no problem with the drow and as such I typicaly call them drow, but they have no issue with others calling them darkies and if I were to do a drow hater that would pry be the term I would use to refer to them. I don't think it is perticularly offensive. I have been called names in refrence to my skin color in RL when I was a odd one out.  Did I get mad or offended? No not really I told them my name and it was cool after that.  I think that darkie or lighty or whity what ever is pry the least of the plethra of names out their, and if they were truly trying to offend they could do better then darkie or whitey.

And I have servered in the military and traveled all over the world and rarly encountered people that would be truely offended by this.  Sure a very few might be but someone will be offended by almost anything.  I am not saying its the best solution but we need to be practicle and fair, as well as draw a line between RL and the game. If you can't do that you might not want to play for a bit and go watch the horrid movie Mazes and Monsters and think things over. P.S. For those that don't know Mazes and Monsters is based on a true story of a kid that played DnD and went a little crazy and thought it was real and killed someone I think it was a real life friend but I don't remember the RL story for sure.

Say it with me. It is just a game and does not have any effect on my life outside the game.  But again this is all my opinion.

Also if you want to not offend anyone you might want to think that for some people and if you think hard you can come up with a talk radio person or two that is against PC and die hard supporters of free sepach. TO those people and those that listen to them and believe like they do saying not to use darkie is an attack on thier free sepach and their rights and their for highly offensive. So in tyring to not offend someone you just offended someone else.  The whole thing is just silly either way.

[Frendh]

Harloff - 7/20/2005  4:56 PM


Furthermore, it is a fact that a Negro has a darker skin than the rest of the human population,

By Negro I'm guessing you mean someone with a heritage from africa?
If so, I can say it is not a fact that a Negro has darker skin than
the rest of the human population. There are places where people have
as dark or maybe even darker skin than someone with an african
heritage. Sri Lanka is one place.

[Harloff]

Frendh - 7/20/2005  5:44 PM

Harloff - 7/20/2005  4:56 PM


Furthermore, it is a fact that a Negro has a darker skin than the rest of the human population,

By Negro I'm guessing you mean someone with a heritage from africa?
If so, I can say it is not a fact that a Negro has darker skin than
the rest of the human population. There are places where people have
as dark or maybe even darker skin than someone with an african
heritage. Sri Lanka is one place.

Are there other kinds of negros? According to my dictionary negros are black people from Africa. And yes a negro has a heritage from Africa but not all that have a heritage from Africa have dark skin e.g. Egyptians and Algerians that was the reason why I didn't refer to them "as people with African heritage". And I am aware of the fact that the negros have varying skin colour and that some other people have dark skin to that wasn't my point. I was trying to say that political correctness leads nowhere and it doesn't help anyone.

Yes there are problems with racism, but it can't be solved by banning words. The words aren't the problem narrow minded people and ignorance is.

[Germaine Lorn]

lol  I didn't ask it to be banned.  READ AGAIN - I don't think that would work.  I asked for sensitivity.  And by the way racism is not just from skinheads.  There are planty of educated, intelligent bigots.  Unfortunately some will be roleplayers.

However in my defence, I did say it was an opinion.  If you don't agree thats absolutely fine by me.  The reason I brought it up here rather that in-game is because it was a matter I thought should be discussed, not rules I expected to be imposed.  I think telling me to "go play elsewhere" isn't really appropriate.  

Hopefully that makes my position clear.

[Imperious]

Look, now that we're getting into skin colors and point-by-point rebuttals of what race (in RL) is darker, I think we're missing the larger point.

Whether we like it or not, words have meaning and, to a certain extent, power. Even in a RP fantasy world (yes, we all understand it's a "fantasy world"). And the line that "I'm just role-playing my character" can work some of the time, but not always.

For example, why not just allow curse words?  After all, can't we just go to Leanthar and the GMS and say, hey, I"m role-playing my character...my character curses...got nothing to do with the real world...this is just fantasy...so please let me use all the curse words I want to?"

Or why can't we say that our character is a racist and would use racist terms to people he might meet in game. I mean, after all, aren't i just role-playing a character? What harm would racial epiethets cause since it's in a fantasy world?

The bottom line is: Layonara is two communities, both a "fantasy" community and an online, real-world community. And while there are some obvious distinctions between the two, the two are very closely linked. And that's why certain actions, certain behaviors and certain words are not allowed. Our real world online community has decided not to allow those behaviors and words in the fantasy world.

Obviously, there's a lot of gray areas. Does the term "Darky" meet the test?  I always use the "first impression" test, and I must admit that when I first saw it, I was very surprised, but that's just me. Trust me, I understand some of the reasoning -- Dark Elf, Darky, Elf, Elfie, whatever. Fine and good. But it does make me slighly uneasy, and in my view this is probably where the anonymity of the Internet works against us, not for us. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone is calling for any banning.

What Germaine said about using sensitivity is a good idea, and players should use make more use of TELLS to communicate about these things. And I'm pleased to hear that most have stated that they would respond in their RP accordingly if they received such a TELL...that's how a community works.

[Eight-Bit]

I play one of the most offensive characters out there, yet I don't drop anything racial. It's a thin line and people are here to have fun. I am TOTALLY against any politically correct asinine change to the rulebooks on this subject, but people just need to learn to use their heads and think a little before they go out and ressurect racial slurs here. I try to avoid any modern-day colloquialisms in my character's speech. The main thing we need to be sure of is that our fun doesn't overlap the fun of other's.

[freemen2]

*Rereads the thread for the 3rd time while grumbling*

NO, no, no! ThunderPants, us Half-Elf bastard are the perfect size :p

Case in point Germaine, bastard is or more to the point, was just a term of defining a child outside wedlock...a very long time ago.  T'was then used by biggets...yer avarage pea-brain, stupid, ignoranus that is a racist, as an insult.  Now, not using said term leaves that word with the definition the racist left it?  Are you seeing my point?
Kind of easy to proclaim you didn't want the term to be banned when everything you wrote about it clearly states you do not want it used, nay? The very least you could do is say that, nothing wrong with something bothering you so much that you would rather it didn't exist...but jeez, fess-up.
As for you leaving, all I read was people telling you that, well in condense terms: You don't like you can get...which isn't the best answer either *sighs*

Personally I don't see anything wrong with calling Drows: Darkies, since this is a make believe fantasy world.  I think t'is been long enough since Blacks in America, because we are mainly talking about Americain cultural racial insults here, where insulted with that.  I would actually prefer the terms main definition now a days be racist insult regarding Drows.  And this isn't about trying to cover-up or change history but making words evolve and not stagnate in the past.
I would see one with calling a drow a negro or a niger as I don't see how that can fit in a even remotly way to JRR Tolkiens works.
On an IG and RL personal point of view, calling a drow darky, from a rude barrel with limbs and an empty head or anyone is nothing more then a bigget insult.  So yeah, like Connor said, you want to spit on someone, before crying victory, dex roll check from you and the one being spit on, then you can actually say you spit on the drow.  As for the pictures, *phffff* bout as immature as it gets *shrugs*

[EdTheKet]

Imperious - 7/20/2005 7:30 PM Look, now that we're getting into skin colors and point-by-point rebuttals of what race (in RL) is darker, I think we're missing the larger point.
  Whether we like it or not, words have meaning and, to a certain extent, power. Even in a RP fantasy world (yes, we all understand it's a "fantasy world"). And the line that "I'm just role-playing my character" can work some of the time, but not always.
  For example, why not just allow curse words? After all, can't we just go to Leanthar and the GMS and say, hey, I"m role-playing my character...my character curses...got nothing to do with the real world...this is just fantasy...so please let me use all the curse words I want to?"
  Or why can't we say that our character is a racist and would use racist terms to people he might meet in game. I mean, after all, aren't i just role-playing a character? What harm would racial epiethets cause since it's in a fantasy world?
  The bottom line is: Layonara is two communities, both a "fantasy" community and an online, real-world community. And while there are some obvious distinctions between the two, the two are very closely linked. And that's why certain actions, certain behaviors and certain words are not allowed. Our real world online community has decided not to allow those behaviors and words in the fantasy world.
  Obviously, there's a lot of gray areas. Does the term "Darky" meet the test? I always use the "first impression" test, and I must admit that when I first saw it, I was very surprised, but that's just me. Trust me, I understand some of the reasoning -- Dark Elf, Darky, Elf, Elfie, whatever. Fine and good. But it does make me slighly uneasy, and in my view this is probably where the anonymity of the Internet works against us, not for us.
 

  I couldn't have said it any better.

[freemen2]

It isn't because one acts like something doesn't exists that it doesn't.
And the more laws you have to contain a society the less free to think and act that society has.

Both where said better and wiser people then I,  unfortunatly I don't remember the names but their ideas are in me.

[Germaine Lorn]

Freemen

I appreciate that you did not go for some of the lazy stock responses I got. However, I am not going to "fess up" to being some sort of word banning tyrant.  Posting what you did encourages those who disagree with me to see me in that light though.  So thanks a bunch.

Asking for people to consider the effects of what they say is not the same as wanting a law banning it.  I was posting an opinion and asking the community what they thought, not asking for   a vote on whether words should be banned or not.

[Diamondedge]

Okay.

I did not realize that the term Darkie was in common use in North America. I'm from an isolated community in Northern Canada where everyone gets along, and there's no mean talk anywhere.

I am still unsure of how someone can take the term 'Darkie', when used against a drow -- A fictional, not real character at all in any way what so ever -- and dig up offense from it as a player. I just can't see how that's possible.

Of course, if I was using the term 'Darkie' against a drow or group of drow and someone sent me a Tell in regards to stopping, I would honor it and back off a bit. The word 'Drow' would be used with as much venom as it could, though, and I'd probably find another 'vulgar dwarven term' to use against the murderous, treacherous vile creatures.

I will not treat this as a red light or even a yellow light in any way and will continue to RP my dwarf as I see fit unless someone sends me a tell directly requesting I stop the "bad talk". Trouble is, with my little ball of muscley hate, there aren't many words stopping him from running around town spitting on people.

[Germaine Lorn]

And I guess on that note before I become some sort of pariah for opening my mouth - I am abandoning this post before I find myself burned at the virtual stake

Germaine Lorn

[KageKeeper]

They would have to burn me too. I understand what you are saying and I think Imperious did say it best.

Common sense. This is a game, yes. But it is played by real people with real feelings. Sometimes things are offensive. Does it offend me? No. Should there be a rule? No. There are enough rules. Just use common sense. *shrugs*

And I certainly do not think jumping on anyone for stating their opinion is correct.

Can't we all just get along?

[Leanthar]

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15743&posts=1

[dfiremann]

Well, L has settled the matter.  And I like it.

Listen, I will accompany the body politic, whatever the decision was, because no little word here or there is really going to make a difference to me enjoying the game.

But here are somethings perhaps to consider?

Racisim/hostile work environment/harassment law is identified as, "comments, actions, or things that a REASONABLE AND PRUDENT person would find offensive..."

Calling a dark elf, "darkie" in a computer game.  Hmmm.  Well, the question has been brought up.

What if it's used by another dark elf character?  What if the user is actually black?  Does it change the parameters?  We have situations of possibly offending someone off the chart.

We rapidly degenerate into banning sharp weapons because they're offensive to some, and the F/LDCLU (Fantasy/Layonara Dwarven Cilvil Liberty Union) and EADL (Elven Anti-defamation League) begin to stand up.

Tension has a roleplay with the way races are constructed.

I'm Duradin Fireaxe.  And my best friend in game is an Elf...

[teefal]

Imperious said it best.  I agree completely.  

As far as I know, nobody has said (or even implied), "Don't play racial hatred in game".  Personally, I'm reacting to the OOC talk condemning the community for not RPing discrimination more.  I'm also personally disappointed with the "you and your rules, you silly politically correct overreacters" vibe that's going on too.  

Yeah, political correctness is a pain in the ass, and "vertically challenged" and "sanitation engineer" are over the top. But when it comes to slurs against groups that have suffered, such as african-americans and jews, I'll always speak up.  Both of these groups have suffered horribly within my parent's lifetime, and it continues to this day.  To me, it's just kindness to avoid conjuring up the spectre of race hatred that words like "darkie" invoke.

And for those who think we're being silly, have a look at withoutsanctuary.com and play the movie.

Warning, though: this thing's pretty heavy.

And before you say, "That was then, this is now" ... race hate is very much alive in America, though not quite as obvious as before. We live within an hour of one of the largest Klu Klux Klan operations in America (yeah, Pennsylvania.)