Knightlyness

[Diamondedge]

...And thus, take some good levels of fighter. You can do the same thing as a Paladin, but, y'know, minus the abilities, or orders to abhere to a code of conduct. If you wanna sneak around, that is.

[eddiecoyote]

this has been a pretty good discussion.  I am hearing of lot of opinions that can read a lot of ways.

Paladins not care about money?  Why not?  Think of a Paladin getting as much gold as possible to give to the temple so that the temple can spread the word.  Or perhaps the paladin can buy better armor and weapons and be an even better defence against evil.  Just because a paladin gets a lot of gold, or goes looking for it at times, is not in and of itself un-paladin-like.

Peace first?  Sure, if we lived in a world where you could reason with everything.  But can you reason with a werewolf?  Can you reason with a ghoul?  Or how about the clan of ogres that are passing through the valley?  Talk to them first instead of ambush?  Nay!  Ambush them and wipe them off the face of the planet.  Does this diminish evil?  Yes.  Does it make the area safer for good?  Yes.  Is it dirty?  Yes.  Is killing evil?  Depends on who you ask and in what context.  I know some rangers that will kill you if you kill a deer in the forest.  Better to kill a human than a deer, some would say.

Can Paladins use ranged weapons?  It doesn't mesh quite right, if you ask me.  There is no mano e mano fighting going on by using arrows.  Yet what about a siege?  Doesn't the use of catapults equivicate to the use of arrows... just really big ones?  And what of flying creatures... can a paladin shoot at a flying gryphon that has attacked him?  Or wait, like the dummy, for the creature to fly down at it's time and choosing to attack the paladin.  Lawful Good and honor does not mean one abandons tactics.  Bravery does not mean foolishness or foolhardy.

If a paladin walked into a room and saw a dozen ghouls (or whatever undead is sufficiently high level to kill you easily)... should he run in, yelling his god's name while on a suicide attack, or should he close the door and beat feet.  To think that just because one is a paladin then that person needs to go attack every thing, tactics and common sense thrown to the winds, have no concept at all of military tactics or reality and this isn't bravery, it is sheer thick skulled behavior.  Run away quickly, warn those you come across, and organize a larger band to re-address the ghoulish threat.

[PsychicToaster]

eddiecoyote - 11/24/2005  2:49 AM

If a paladin walked into a room and saw a dozen ghouls (or whatever undead is sufficiently high level to kill you easily)... should he run in, yelling his god's name while on a suicide attack, or should he close the door and beat feet.  To think that just because one is a paladin then that person needs to go attack every thing, tactics and common sense thrown to the winds, have no concept at all of military tactics or reality and this isn't bravery, it is sheer thick skulled behavior.  Run away quickly, warn those you come across, and organize a larger band to re-address the ghoulish threat.

No, that's what a fighter with a sword would do.  A paladin would just walk in and turn them with the awesome goodness of his deity's blessing.  

When I see Lawful, I think of it as adherence to the code.  Each deity has a different one, and some vary quite a bit (Lucindite vs Toranite paladins for instance).  So what one Paladin would do is completely different from what another would do.  They also fulfill a different purpose within the ranks of their respective clergy.  

As a Rofireinite paladin, to add color to my character I slide more towards lawful than strictly good.  A great deal is said about Rofirein and law, but I don't think that kind of hard-line ideal is perfectly in keeping with the paladin stereotype.  That is what makes the character interesting to play.  Cookie-cutter "truth, justice, and the American way" paladins are boring and a dime a dozen, just like any other pre-cast mold.  They have to follow the rules, but even the rules have some leeway to them.  The other thing about rules is that if you know why the rule exists, you have a pretty good idea of what constitutes a reasonable cause to break it.  Sure it comes with consequences, to expect no repurcussions is naive.  But that's what makes roleplaying interesting, the conflict between principle and dogma.

[FlameStrike]

PsychicToaster - 11/24/2005  9:26 AM

eddiecoyote - 11/24/2005  2:49 AM

If a paladin walked into a room and saw a dozen ghouls (or whatever undead is sufficiently high level to kill you easily)... should he run in, yelling his god's name while on a suicide attack, or should he close the door and beat feet.  To think that just because one is a paladin then that person needs to go attack every thing, tactics and common sense thrown to the winds, have no concept at all of military tactics or reality and this isn't bravery, it is sheer thick skulled behavior.  Run away quickly, warn those you come across, and organize a larger band to re-address the ghoulish threat.

No, that's what a fighter with a sword would do.  A paladin would just walk in and turn them with the awesome goodness of his deity's blessing.  

Not really... Lawful Good does not equal Lawful Stupid in my opinion, or at least shouldn't. There would be no point in attacking if you knew you would die in vain, no matter if you are a Toranite paladin or not.

[PsychicToaster]

My point was just that they didn't have to fight the ghouls, not that they have to be stupid.  It was just a joke.

[FlameStrike]

I understood it was a joke, though i simply felt like highlighting that paladins don't have to be dumb and blind to serve a god properly.

[Pibemanden]

Diamondedge - 9/8/2005  7:41 PM

But the Paladin would pray and hope that it never came to that, because much blood would be spilled, both of the townsfolk and the orcs. What a true paladin desires is peaceful conduct, and they will always hold themselves to that. They serve first as diplomats, and second as warriors, never should they work the other way around, because then they abuse the priviledges granted by their deities. In such a case they should be losing their abilities, but this cannot happen with this system, and therefor a Paladin can act how he/she likes.

I don't think a paladin of Lucinda cares that much about peacefull conduct. Storold would of course not slaughter a bunch of peacefull creatures or people that comes along. But after watching the vile behaviour of goblins, gnolls, kobolds, giants and the like and knowing  where the hostile tribes lives he wouldn't think of it as a bad thing to use invisibility and sneak up on one of them and jump out with haste and true strike cast in advance to make sure that he gets them before they get him.
And about the diplomacy: It says in the describtion that the paladins of Lucinda is rarely trusted to do that -it's more a guardian thing. Besides all I can see that the paladins of Lucinda does is either protecting the clergy or temples or going somewhere to dispatch the enemies of the weave and all the magical creatures that roam the lands without being bound by proper wardings or spells.
But that's just my view on things; a paladin of Toran might do just as you described. I just don't think of the Lucindite paladins as especially knightly more like "If it's against the weave, it's against us and we're surely going to destroy/kill it at any chance we get".

[Niles09]

*scratch scratch* Well paladins varies as great as wizards if you ask me. Some, especially the new ones who come to make the world a better place, are really mean, bad tempered, one dimensional and racists. They are fast to tell people what are wrong with them, and even faster to pull out their swords! Its actually strange that their gods would continue to give them power, cause they can really do bad things.
Older paladins are usually better, they dont jugde people, and they are more open minded toward different views of goodness. About killing stuff. well what to do? You cant play Layonara without killing things now and then, and even though me own char rather would have a diplomatic solution, its hard to be diplomatic with a gobo programmed to kill you?! So about killing things, the only place to show how you feel about combat is on GM quests.

(sorry this may not have anything to do with this, but I didnt have time to read every post here.)

[Pibemanden]

Well Lucinda gives Storold powers because he helps her cause. But remember that she also gives the powers of the weave to Bloods allies. So you can't say that Storold is misusing his arcane powers he merely use them to stay alive and usefull to Lucinda. And Storold nececeraly doesn't want to make the world a better place he just follows the laws of Lucinda and makes sure that those who don't will be stopped.
When one of Lucindas paladins are called for it's not for politely telling someone to stop their experiments that might end up damaging the weave. It's because the people failed to listen to the warnings given to them and therefore they are now considered enemies of the church.
Therefore Storold practices his combat tactics on other creatures that have shown their total lack of respect for his life. If they don't respect his right to be in this world then he doesn't care that much for killing them. But on the other hand there is always a purpose with the killing.
Fx. Storold needs greenstones for some potions and the goblins aren't excatly willing to share or trade any of the greenstones in their lair. Well there is only one solution to that I prepare myself before going into the caves when the goblins starts attacking Storold, again, Storold responds by killing all the goblins that attack him.

[Doc-Holiday]

Niles... maybe you should check out Weston Pendrot it action. He's not a Paladin by class, but in his heart he is a real Paladin. True he is an older character, but he has strong moral and ethical fibers that give him an incredible valiant streak. He doesn't fight everything that pops up it's ugly head, he avoids combat where possible... is diplomatic and charming where possible, defends his friends and party members, upholds the purity of the weave, and while he DOES have predjudices to certain races he is diplomatic about his dislike.

I as a player do not focus or put import on xp... infact.. if you ask for xp I'll probably smite you with my ever ready "Stick of a thousand smitings" I also do not focus on grabbing coin or items. These two things really help in creating a Paladin type feeling to a character. First off yout not out to kill things, second, your not out to kill things for money. When EVER possible, I take diplomatic stances, however, once a blade is drawn... negotiations are over.

Also.. try to fit your Paladin's actions and moral compase around your dieties doctrine... Xeenite Paladin's for example... wouldn't take issue with entering.. attending, owning, or indulging in night clubs... Toranite Paladins wouldn't be caugt dead in one unless it was infested with demons or something. Ludincdite Paladin's may attend should they feel inclined to, but would not over do their indulgence. Rofeironite's would be avoidant but may have a drink or two and then leave.

perhapse not the best examples but just my view of things.

[Doc-Holiday]

Also... A Lucindite Paladin's conduct is to the propagation and protection of the weave first and foremost, all actions outside of that are to be representitive of Lucinda and to be honorable to her. She is far less restrictive than Toran, however, when it concerns the weave, it's not nearly as easy as you might think

[Pibemanden]

Excatly Doc. On Storolds cdq to become a paladin he choose the protection of the weave above all else. Not knowing wether his choice would result in Hlint being assulted by a massive undead force and proberly burned to the ground. Instead he went to investigate something that may have been a grim assult on the weave.

[PsychicToaster]

Toran's oaths are the only ones that fit the "classic" Paladin mold, but that's to be expected from the patron of Paladins.  It's also part of the reason why WotC came out with a paladin equivalent base class for all alignments.  

The most telling moment for my character so far came during a standoff with an NPC being played by Rhizome.  Shae was just going to question her on the mysterious disappearances and deaths until she attacked and killed a party member in cold blood.  Some in the party tried to justify it as self-defense since we had surrounded her, and she was only killing people who harm the forest.  To Shae she was attempting to evade a lawful questioning, and had just committed murder in cold blood with five witnesses and deserved the same punishment.  She started talking about the laws of nature ruling in the forest and the laws of man meaning nothing.  Now, Rofirein and Katia are on good terms, and Shae has respect for natural law (especially that whole dead stay dead thing) but the way she was addressing the group it was clear that this was a declaration of open rebellion against King and Country.    

There's lots of perspectives on it.  Its more important to figure out why your character would or wouldn't do something than making a list of things they would never do.