Lag whilst quests are being run

[Germaine Lorn]

I approach this subject with caution..  I have noticed that when quests are being run the lag on the rest of the server for me increases to such a degree that I cannot play.  Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me.

This is just a question and not an attack. Please do not post telling me how rubbish my computer is.  

Any idea about what I can do about this? (constructive only please)

Thanks a million

Germaine Lorn

[Talan Va'lash]

I think having a lot of people in the same party increases the load on the server.

This is accentuated by the fact that often, when a quest is going on, there are a lot of people logged in.

Dropping your graphics settings, and resolution if neccessary will make sure that your PC adding as little slowdown as possible.

[Leanthar]

Yes that is indeed a problem with NWN.  The more people are in an area OR the more people that are in a party (seems to be 10 or more that causes an increase in lag) does indeed cause lag on the server itself. 

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

Their are a few bandades that the player an DM's can take.

1) Deactivateing combat info in the second chat bar (DMs and Players can take this step)
2) Turn off your sounds, lower your video settings. (Helps me so it may help you)

NWN was desighned for 4-5 people +1 DM. Alas it can handle more but it gets whiney.

[Germaine Lorn]

thanks - it seems as I approach 30 people on line I get bad lag.  I have graphics on min - I will try turning off sounds too..

[Germaine Lorn]

- er just a thought - could questing parties split into two groups if large?  Or would this be unworkable  (my experince has been parties over 10 do not actually need to be inthe same paty. But have  not tried on Layonara so I don't know if this would work.

Anyway I appreciate that I was not shot down in flames over my post

[Highlander3751]

The problem with splitting parties is that only half of the group will get the XP from any kill. Also, DMs like to have characters in "Party Chat" on a quest, so if you say something, only half of the characters will hear. Pretty much anything you do only affects half of your party-mates, come to think of it.

[Dorganath]

To add to what Highlander said, unless the parties are going to be in physically separate locations, having 2 parties is more trouble than it's worth in most cases...for players and GMs.  I can think of maybe 2 or 3 quests in the last 10 months that have resulted in 2 or more parties, and for those, there was legitimate cause.

[Sakura]

Generally speaking this is why most of my quests are ran on Dregar.

I don't wan't to "Lag" out the players that are not a part of my quest.

Great question, great answers.

[SeaWraith]

I've run into this discussion on other servers, and have the following post, confirmed by Georg Z. of Bioware:

"I've never seen turning off Combat info make the difference that killing parties made. In fact I've never seen it make any difference. Why? Because it's not the combat info that causes server lag. Think about it. If it was the combat info causing all the lag, we wouldn't be lagged all to hell just standing around, not in combat, but we are.

If you're going to party at all, it should be small groups. As groups grow, the amount of information being transferred grows dramatically.

1 player shares info 1 way (self)
2 players share info 2 ways (each other)
3 players share info 3 * 2 ways = 6
4 players share info 4 * 3 ways = 12
5 players share info 5 * 4 ways = 20
6 players share info 6 * 5 ways = 30
7 players share info 7 * 6 ways = 42
20 players share info 20 * 19 ways = 380
45 players share info 45 * 44 ways = 1980

It should be obvious here that 2 groups of 2 players (info shared 4 ways) is better than 1 group of 4 players (info shared 12 ways).

5 groups of 2 players (info shared 10 ways) would be better than a group of 10 players (info shared 90 ways)."

To this, Georg Zoeller responds:
"That is correct. The more people are in a certain faction/party, the longer operations that target the faction as whole will take. NWN's focus is the party between 1-8 players, anything above should be avoided (by activating multiple parties).

Also keep in mind that certain functions in game and scripting work based of your whole faction (a party is just a faction).

If all your monsters are in the same "hostile" faction, they might get informed of certain events by scripting or in game (i.e. Player X just changed his stance to our faction to "hostile"). If you divide your monsters into more different factions (i.e. "The swamp ogres" or "the mountain trolls"), you will save CPU time, especially if you use scripting functions like GetFactionBestAC* or other faction related information. "

Another thing that helps during large events is actually collecting the loot dropped - all that stuff on the ground is a major lag-inducer as well!

Just my 2 copper.

[Leanthar]

Thank you SeaWraith.

[IDii]

Getting rid of parties might help. Well looking at that it would...

Would be kinda good for RP too. People couldn't use the minimap to see where other people are going so they'd have to use see invis if running around invisible. Also people couldn't just run around as a party all the time but would actually have to walk if they wanted to hear each other talk. Also not seeing what kind of HP the other character has is kinda cool...

So it would work like this. All the player characters are technically in the same party when it comes to spell effects and xp they get. This could of course lead to people running after other people invis for XP... But then again that's watching combat anyway and we could just ask them to not do it.
Then again party chat wouldn't work so DMs would have to adjust to that on quests but it could be done. Also people would have a bit harder time adventuring together. Not knowing exactly what amount they should heal their friend or where the wizard of the party si running invisible. But then again characters shouldn't know that anyway.



Anyway, I've seen parties disabled on a few servers. Other than just reducing the lag it actually increased the quality of RP a lot. Less metagaming, less running all the time, etc.

[SeaWraith]

Well, I'm not saying that we need to eliminate parties entirely, but we need to be aware of the impact that large parties have on the server.

[Xerina]

I found the same applies when I DM a PnP game. I never tell people how many HP they deal or receive in combat, just a general statement like it you receive a minor flesh wound but feel fine to continue, or the force of the blow staggers you making you nearly drop your sword, you are pretty sure you are going to require a cleric or potion to heal it. That way they they go on the over all feeling of their character not their HP and same with the mobs they are fighting. They might know its raining blood for a hundred wounds but if its still up and swinging full force is it tought and fighting on barbarian rage to its last HP or does it have a few hundred more to battle thru.  

It fosters better role playing and communication, and if a player is a room or two away I will ask them to step away from the table and into the kitchen so they can't automaticly know what is happening. I also remove the invis miniture from the table and me and the wizard track it mentaly and on paper the rest of the group can't see.

My group use to be big time power gamers and baulked at the idea when I presented it, but after a few weeks of it they love it now and are 100% better role players, well except for the mage that really wants to be a fighter. But he is just never going to get it, but hey he tries and he is fun to play with. And he is a bit better. So what I am saying is it really can help with role playing it has helped my group in PnP allot, and the initial resistance faded pretty quickly and people now perfer the not knowing or being able to metagame. Allot of people try really hard not to metagame but it is hard to not use knowledge instently.

[SeaWraith]

Hmm... I'm finding myself more agreeable to the elimination of parties after reading through some of the posts, but it would require some fairly hefty rescripting to make party spells (Mass Haste, Mind Blank, etc.) and effects (Bless, Bard Song) work properly. It would be fun, though!

[Vyris]

I kinda like the idea of abolishing the party system.

All the statements about it are valid, a invisible mage is just that, invisible.
You'd have to RP a bit more for your group to know whats going on.
Clercis can still just hit 'Tab' and see who is hurt.

And my own observations as a GM, if the party channel were to be used JUST for quests.... my oh my, it would be so much easier to keep track of the RP within the group, rather than being distracted by the 3-4 other groups out gathering CNR or killing undeads in the broken forest.

Another idea I had while reading this is if it would be possible to have a 'group' item. Make it similar to a house key in that it can be replicated. example:

Player 'A' invites player 'B' to 'group' with him (not a party). Player 'A' activates the 'group widget' and targets player 'B'. Player 'B' accepts and a 'group item' is added to his inventory. Player 'A' is then prompted to name his group, he names his group "'A' and 'B'" The group widget then changes the faction setting of the two PC's to be  "Group 'A' and 'B'". Each group would have it's own faction name as they are created, and perhaps we could change factions to incorperate some of the PARTY scripting so that members of the same faction split XP for combat, are default targets for benign AOE spells, etc. But cut out all the info swapping that goes on like position on minimap and combat information.

Just a thought, not sure if it is possible but might be a decent work-around.


Vyris

[Xerina]

Vyris - 7/15/2005  11:49 AM

I kinda like the idea of abolishing the party system.

All the statements about it are valid, a invisible mage is just that, invisible.
You'd have to RP a bit more for your group to know whats going on.
Clercis can still just hit 'Tab' and see who is hurt.

And my own observations as a GM, if the party channel were to be used JUST for quests.... my oh my, it would be so much easier to keep track of the RP within the group, rather than being distracted by the 3-4 other groups out gathering CNR or killing undeads in the broken forest.

Another idea I had while reading this is if it would be possible to have a 'group' item. Make it similar to a house key in that it can be replicated. example:

Player 'A' invites player 'B' to 'group' with him (not a party). Player 'A' activates the 'group widget' and targets player 'B'. Player 'B' accepts and a 'group item' is added to his inventory. Player 'A' is then prompted to name his group, he names his group "'A' and 'B'" The group widget then changes the faction setting of the two PC's to be  "Group 'A' and 'B'". Each group would have it's own faction name as they are created, and perhaps we could change factions to incorperate some of the PARTY scripting so that members of the same faction split XP for combat, are default targets for benign AOE spells, etc. But cut out all the info swapping that goes on like position on minimap and combat information.

Just a thought, not sure if it is possible but might be a decent work-around.


Vyris

I'm not 100% possitive but I think it could be done via scripting, but we have to avoid adding so many scripts we get script lag replacing group lag.  Their is allot you can do if if then scripts, I have seen bullets used for a similar thing everyone in the group equiped a bullet in their inventory, and as long as they were in the same area it worked but didn't work across a zone. Bullets were used because you have to equip them not just have them in your inventory were to stop using it you have to destroy ot drop it and doesn't require the extra scripting of if a invites b then create items c, if b accepts invite from a then activate item c. Or doing extra scripting on a widget to change roles if accepted. And not allot of people use bullets. To do it here the widget is pry the best because I see alot of slingers around Hlint.

Does anyone know for sure if it is possible? I think thier could be allot done with a party widget. Remember if you artificaly create a party with a widget it is still going to split all the data pertaining to the group to all the widgets so the more you add to the group widget the more you are creating the same problem in a new way.

[Zhofe]

I think that getting rid of parties entirly would make some things very difficult, for instance, making sure people in the party are not lagging behind. Especially considering that it isn't good to sit around on a spawn point and wait for everyone to regroup, or even keep track of who is supposed to be there.

The idea would be excellent if we were dealing with the same 8-10 people all the time (ala PnP) but I think in the long run here, with so many players, it would not be worth the hassle.

I think it would make it harder on DMs and players alike to keep track of what is going on, especially if you consider that alot of times players must step away for RL reasons, and that quests seem to already be four hours long with party chat and running everywhere speeding things along.

Just my opinion though ...

[vgn]

The most critical reason why parties cannot be removed in a real time combat system like we have in nwn is the fact that you will die more, a lot more. Why? Because if there are no parties and the clerics can't see who is getting hurt on the health status, people will likely not get healed in time. Yes, this is meta gaming some as the clerics shouldn't just "know" who is hurt, but unlike PnP, there often isn't time in battle to cry out "I need healing."

Also based on speculation orth and I had, we believe this is one of the major factors in the lag you seen with big parties. As each member of the party is added, then they are also added to the notifications on party member status. So each heart beat every member of the party gets sent the status of every other member. Intense traffic!

Transmitting all the party talk is also likely an issue, though probably not as much as the health updates.

[Dorganath]

I almost hate to bring this point up, however without using parties for non-quest situations, there will be a whole lot of people who will suddenly level very, very slowly.  Mages, rogues, even monks for sure at lower levels would simply crawl through the lower levels unless they were able to get on GM-led quests.

Now I agree that leveling should not be the main focus of a player for his/her character.  However, leveling simulates growth, experience and learning.  While a mage tagging along in a party with stronger fighters may not always land the killing shot or spell on a particular creature, he did contribute to that kill and probably learned something in the process.  Yet this learning and experience would not be reflected for anyone in the party EXCEPT for the one lucky enough to cause that last HP to drop.

When it's not a GM-led quest, it might be an interesting experiment to ask people in parties to NOT use Party Chat when speaking to each other....because really, they shouldn't be talking across areas and such even if game mechanics allows it.  In other words, reserve Party Chat for GM-led events only. Maybe it will make a difference in lag, maybe it's won't.  It's probably worth a try, though, before anything drastic is done.