The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Filatus on August 14, 2006, 05:44:32 pm
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Some of you might wonder what I'm meaning with the title of this post. It is something that has come up before, but lately it seems to have been forgotten by most players. There are always complaints about lag, particulary on West server. After having spend quite some time there lately, I've found out that a lot of the big lag peaks coincide with players logging in and off. These same players generate the same amount of lag on Central, so it has nothing to do with West.
Bad inventory management is probably the reason behind this. If a character is carrying lots of gemdusts, the server will lag when they log on and off. I've seen players cause 12 seconds of lag logging on and off. Playing on West, where this happens the most, would be greatly improved if people would take greater care in making sure they don't have several boxes filled with dust.
I've had several moments in the past two weeks that I was in the middle of a fight and a player probably loaded with lots of gemdust, logged on and caused a 10 second lag peak. Everyone knows what such lag can lead to in tough fights. And the fact is it is so easy to avoid. All it takes is storing excess dusts in crates or selling it off.
I've often wondered before whether I should let players know whether they are lagging the server when logging. Until now I've never done this, since I didn't think it would be proper to start sending tells to people, because reall I'm just another player here.
So as you might have noticed by now, this post has two points. The first being a reminder to the players to refrain from carrying too many dusts around. Please keep a clean and tidy inventory, it really helps making the servers more fun.
The second being a question to the Team about whether it would be a good idea to let people know in-game they lag the server when logging in and off. I ask this question, because the player in question would probably not notice he's lagging the server. Thus the only way he could find out about is by letting him know. On the other hand, perhaps there are multiple reasons that can cause this lag apart from the gemdusts, causes that might be out of a player's hands. The funny thing is, for all I know I might even be lagging the server. If I am and removing some dusts would cure this, I would like to know it.
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The reason this causes a problem (the large inventories) is because whenever a player logs in to the server NwN (hardcoded) looks through all items in the inventory, including bags and all of that. And every item (including stacks) are checked and verified. The main problem is that players have 6-20 bags and those bags are in turn filled or even 1/2 filled.
I have spoken to players quite a lot but for the post part players tend to forget about this issue. But it does indeed cause login spikes, sometimes up to 10-20 seconds if somebody has a lot of stuff in their inventory.
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That's why I was wondering whether it would be a good idea to be more direct about it. As a player you probably don't know whether you are creating such a lag spike until someone let's you know. As a crafter I can totally understand how quickly your inventory tends to clutter up.
But on the other hand there are also the, let's say 20, other online players to consider who are seeing the game freeze for 10 seconds or more.
And really, the biggest question for me at the moment, being a rather busy crafter, is "Am I causing lag spikes?". :)
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I would not be offended in the least if I was one of these players and you informed me. Any way I can help cut down lag I will. So this raises a question. If a palyers personal inventory can do this what about the houses filled with filled crates?
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I think those items are saved on the database that and they would only not cause alot of lag? I might be wrong though and I am sure one of the GM's could clarify it better.
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If I wascausing a problem such as this I also would like to know . . . that and the answer about house inventory . .
~ Jil
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House inventory causes small spikes to a degree but not really that much. Chest items in a house do not get loaded until the chest is opened. Housing items (the placeables) are loaded when the front door is opened, so it is staggered out pretty good.
But the inventory of players does indeed kill NwN in large ways. It is one of the reasons we changed crafting to the way it is now, one of the many. The more inventory one has the larger the spike and after you go over a couple of bags it gets quite noticeable.
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a question, specifically to your first point:
to encourage reduction of character's inventories, has there been any consideration of having a merchant actually buy some of the most commonly produced CNR-type items at a reduced rate (reduced as it pertains to what the player-driven market is currently paying for such items) - - gem dusts, raw stones, skeleton bones, etc?
it is really great to be able to find and RP a sale with another player, but since you tend to carry around some of these things in the hopes of making a sale (which are often difficult especially for lower level items, and also due to players' schedules, time zones, and so forth), the inventory builds up rather quickly. having an NPC merchant that buys some of the more common CNR-type products might at least encourage players to "dump" excess items that they have been lugging around, rather than stockpiling them for some eventual, hoped-for sale.
currently, the pawn shop vendor in Hlint isn't a viable option to reducing one's inventory, since he pays an insignificant amount for most things. so, if a rough greenstone brings approximately 20-25 gold through a sale with to PC, for example, why not have a vendor (pawn shop guy, maybe the craft vendor in Hlint?) offer 10-13 gold for the item? a nominal increase that provides an option to PC sales when a PC sale isn't possible would help get some things out of people's inventories.
i'm sure the concern here is an economic one - - the fear of too much gold in the system/inflation, etc... and that's understandable i suppose - - but again, it doesn't have to be an exhorbitant amount of gold paid for items, just a realistic and 'encouraging' increase over what is currently offered by NPCs.
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It is indeed an economic issue. Everything is considered 'insignificant' when it comes to selling to vendors and I understand that. The problem is when we allowed things to be sold for more (for quite a long time) the economy pretty much disappeared and it was only a little higher than it is now. One of those no win situations. We put the temple stuff in to hope to ease the 'donation' issue some but that hasn't worked overly well--but it has helped that is for certain. We do plan to use that system as a basis for other systems that will likely help the problem some. But either way, I don't know if this problem will ever go away with NwN. NwN, while great mind you, is quite limiting when it comes to a lot of things and this is one of them.
Sadly (I feel at least) Bioware has stated time and again they do not support PW's. And it is pretty clear that OE feels the same way, though they tend to talk about it in a slightly different way which I suppose is hopeful--but time will tell.
So... for people that want to run TRUE PW's NwN is not a good solution and I don't think NwN2 will be either.
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Filatus - 8/15/2006 2:44 AM
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... And the fact is it is so easy to avoid. All it takes is storing excess dusts in crates or selling it off...
...So as you might have noticed by now, this post has two points. The first being a reminder to the players to refrain from carrying too many dusts around. Please keep a clean and tidy inventory, it really helps making the servers more fun. ...
...If I am and removing some dusts would cure this, I would like to know it.
Easy to avoid? Bank chest is too easily filled to be of any use and not everyone own a house or have a room to put crates in.
As for selling them? Perhaps if we could make a bit more of a profit than it actually is. But then there is the economic issue.
But yes, I probably would like to know if I'm lagging the server in that way,
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I'm sure this has been brought up but what about a "storage unit"? A building with crates that can be rented for a set RL amount of time perhaps, so players without housing can keep CNR and other saleable items in a safe location. This would really benefit lower level characters who call the Wild Surge home for 10 or more levels.
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Honora - 8/15/2006 8:21 AM
I'm sure this has been brought up but what about a "storage unit"? A building with crates that can be rented for a set RL amount of time perhaps, so players without housing can keep CNR and other saleable items in a safe location. This would really benefit lower level characters who call the Wild Surge home for 10 or more levels.
Agreed and seconded.
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Honora - 8/15/2006 8:21 AM
I'm sure this has been brought up but what about a "storage unit"? A building with crates that can be rented for a set RL amount of time perhaps, so players without housing can keep CNR and other saleable items in a safe location. This would really benefit lower level characters who call the Wild Surge home for 10 or more levels.
Agreed. The problem is one of storage, especially for charatcers who participate in lots of crafts. Now, if I'm causing a server problem, I can thin out Zug's inventory a fair bit (and will try to do so the next time I log on, but between an ox and the bank chest, that's less than 45 items I can keep off-charatcer, so the rest has to stay in the character's inventory.
Storage options need to be increased for journeymen crafters, or we're going to continue to see this problem -- Zug can't afford to throw away hard-to-come by CNR items, even if he can't use them yet because he doesn't have the rest of the recipe. But they're just clogging up inventory in the meantime.
Another option to limit the number of slots used, and to make the existing storage structures more useful, is to increase the "stackability" of items. Gem dusts -- why only 10 in a stack instead of 99? Ditto for scrolls or sandpaper. Shouldn't star dusts, berries, leaves, herbs, etc., be stackable? Right now each takes a separate inventory slot, making them stack should make them easier to store in the limited spaces available. (Or does stacking add to lag?)
As for temple donations, not everyone has easy access to their deity's temples (Vorax has a temple on Mistone, but not even Zug is dumb enough to make the trip there on his own) -- perhaps creating a generic donation center in major towns and cities (Hlint Town Hall, for example) where a character can donate to the deity or relief effort of his/her choice would increase the donations and remove the extra items from the game while still giving the crafter (or finder, in the case of dropped items) some kind of IC "good feeling" for doing so.
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A couple things to point out....
On storage facilities...we still need to limit the number of items that can be stored in a chest. The more items (especially if they're stackable) then the more lag when they're opened and closed.
On stackability, I dare say that making things more stackable, whether increasing stack size or making an item stackable that is currently not, will not do much to discourage the practice of hoarding such items in one's inventory. It's not the number of stacks, it's the number of items that's the problem. by having most CNR things non-stackable (at least the raw CNR). we're effectively trying to limit how many of something peole can carry around.
Let me throw some numbers at you. Take a large chest that can be bought for housing. You can store 30 items in that chest. If the item is stackable, like gem dusts, then that number increases to 300 right off. Increase the stack size to 20 and now that's 600 items. Item/object creation in NWN is one of the most "expensive" operations in terms of CPU usage, which of course contributes to lag.
I might suggest a simpler solution, though I know it is going to be met with resistance....
Get out of the practice of carrying around large amounts of CNR in hopes that you might use the stuff some day. If you can't use it or don't have any specific plans for it, get rid of it, or don't gather it to start. Maybe sell it to someone who can use it, sell it to the pawns or just toss it in the trash. I think a lot of crafters will get massive loads of CNR and then go and craft in a marathon session. For things that require non-stackable ingredients, this practice is generally self-limiting. For those who amass bags/boxes worth of gem dusts, I'm certain it can be done better/differently.
To give you all a perspective, my main character was at least level 12 before he bought into a house with 3 other characters. He's physically not very strong at all, and could never carry much in terms of CNR. And so he would craft in smaller batches, utilize his ox as needed, and if he ran out of room (or weight) he either used it or dumped it. So it can be done.
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Idea on gem dusts....
I know that some gem dusts are used as a spell component and here's an idea to limit the number of item slots they take up while still allowing casters to keep large amounts on their person. Pouches for gem dusts. The pouch would have two different uses. One would bring gem dusts into the pouch, effectively increasing the number of charges the pouch had. The other would remove individual amounts of gem dust from the pouch for usage by the caster. Now.. I suppose you could limit the max number of charges/individual servings it is capable of holding but that would be up to the person making the rules.
Now.. you'd have to have a pouch for each type of dust you needed to use and I'm not sure if you'd have to sell them pre-labeled for each type. I've never tried to script something like that.
That's my idea. It would definately allow the users to still carry significant amounts on their person.. we all know gem dust doesn't take up that much room. And at the same time it would eliminate the vast number of gem dusts the server has to go through during the loggin in process.
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so....after reading all the facts regarding storage, stacks of items, and lag, and the myriad of problems associated with them, i guess i'd like to ask again - - why not just make it more rewarding to sell off these lower level CNR items through an NPC? with all due respect to Leanthar's points on the issue (and i appreciate his quick response) maybe the idea could be looked at again.
if we are saying that storing, whether in character inventory, Bank chests or personal storage chests in homes causes lag issues regardless of whatever configuration is used, why not encourage PCs - especially lower level PCs who need to generate some coin as anyway - to dump the CNR at an NPC merchant who pays out a better amount?
and Dorganath you have a valid point regarding changing the way we view CNR and how we all store it ("hoard" it perhaps is a better word :) ), but, the Layo system places an undeniable importance and value on crafting here, both from an advancement and RP perspective, so much so that these seemingly little items of CNR become very important in the players' minds. they aren't so easily gotten rid of i think. and that's not to say that the system is incorrect or needs to be changed, but rather that the value of these items (due to their great potential through crafting, the risks involved in even finding some CNR and the dangers in trying to collect it) needs to be recognized and perhaps the "pay-out" for simply selling it off to an NPC be made somewhat equitable with the "pay-out" for selling it to a PC.
obviously it should never even be close to what the PC market would pay, but why not 33%? or 25%? i guess it just seems a bit skewed when, from an RP perspective, my character hears that a crafter wants greenstones for 20-25 gold apiece, and, when unable to make a sale to that crafter for whatever reason, finds that the pawn shop vendor, a businessman, who is a living breathing person, probably with a lovely wife and family to feed, in the same town, just down the road from the craft hall, offers one gold coin for the same item.
i know why its done that way, certainly, but, its a bit paradoxical from my character's perspective. it makes the interaction seem a little hollow and frustrating.
bottom line is: you guys know about the economics and past experiences, so i only bring this up for discussion and to maybe suggest re-thinking the issue. i gladly defer to your judgement on the whole thing, but if the lag is bad because of inventories and storage of CNR, maybe allow for a slightly more lucrative system of NPC sale of CNR, with a limit on the types and quantities that an NPC will buy.
thanks very much for the opportunity to discuss.
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This is something (another one of those many topics) that is brought up every 3-6 months, like clockwork. Also one of those things that we get tired of saying the same thing over and over.
"....why not just make it more rewarding to sell off these lower level CNR items through an NPC? with all due respect to Leanthar's points on the issue (and i appreciate his quick response) maybe the idea could be looked at again...."
Sure we can do that and rest assured we will have a character wipe within a few months because the economy is destroyed. Seen it, done it, too many times in 4+ years.
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I read on another server site that has a CNR system that they limit the amount of time you can carry raw CNR on your person. I am not sure how they enforce this. I have not used the scripting engine in NWN but I am an engineer :) can you tag a raw CNR with a datetime stamp when collected and then add a function to the clean up script that cleans up items older then X days? This would at least take care of the mass hording of raw CNR. As for processed CNR (ingots, dusts, cut gems, wood items) just increase the weight significantly. This would discourage the carrying around of large amounts. I would exclude any items that are used for spell components (topaz dust as an example).
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Wow, that's a great idea for limiting the number of dusts. (The idea to make a chargable item for dusts.)
However, it's not just dusts that are the problem. Scrolls, licorice, ivy, ALL the stackable items that people hoard. In a box, I generally have probably thirty or forty items for the boxes I keep scrolls or gems in, on average. Add that to probably thirty wheat flours, and a variety of other CNR that I know exactly when I'll use, and you've got yourself a rather unattractive number of items to be created.
The problem, for me, isn't hoarding CNR that I may or may not use. Pyyran can't carry enough, weight-wise, for me to do that. The problem is the things I WILL use, and not having anywhere to store them. When I play Pyyran, he's a pretty active food crafter and alchaemist - those are CNR-heavy crafts, just in the variety of things you need. Myself, I'd be overjoyed to NOT carry the things around, but I don't have a place to store upwards of fifty items.
Why do most people get player housing? Storage.
What isn't available on Mistone any more (for purchase, at least)? Player housing.
The problem here isn't a lack of player housing. It's a lack of activity among players who bought housing back at the start of V2, but who don't play here anymore, and just haven't asked for the characters to be deleted. Is there a reasonable solution to this? Not really. Clearing ANY of the houses might end us up with a player who comes back after all this time, wondering where his house is, which isn't an attractive scenario.
So... A possible solution is rentable storage. By players, by the DM team's wonderful coding, by whatever. It's been suggested, earlier, that affordable rentable storage is the answer. The Arms is expensive enough that most characters couldn't afford a room there - it's a GREAT organization, but the room numbers are limited, even if one had the gold.
Is there a system that could be set up where every week, the system checks a given "slot" for a character to see if they've put more money in it, and if not, they go into a "warning period." After another week, everything in the chests gets given to some merchant. If a character puts money in during the "warning period," they have to pay double, or somesuch.
The Gnomish Contraption takes gold from a character and gives them a key. Couldn't it set an integer or two on the database, if it were configured for the system I mentioned?
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Leanthar - 8/15/2006 1:38 PM
This is something (another one of those many topics) that is brought up every 3-6 months, like clockwork. Also one of those things that we get tired of saying the same thing over and over.
"....why not just make it more rewarding to sell off these lower level CNR items through an NPC? with all due respect to Leanthar's points on the issue (and i appreciate his quick response) maybe the idea could be looked at again...."
Sure we can do that and rest assured we will have a character wipe within a few months because the economy is destroyed. Seen it, done it, too many times in 4+ years.
er... okay. sorry if i touched a nerve. if it is brought up "like clockwork", doesn't that seem to indicate an ongoing problem? i don't have 4+ years on the server, like many others playing here now, so if we bring up the topic, it's only because we don't know that the discussion has previously occurred and (apparently) been resolved from your point of view.
so if thats not a viable option, do you have any opinion regarding the inventory/storage - lag problem?
thanks.
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I wasn't really thinking off implementing any sort of system to address this issue when posting. I don't know what is possible with scripting. All I was really saying is that it is something the players can prevent themselves.
You can't expect scripting to be the answer for everything.
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doesn't that seem to indicate an ongoing problem?
Yep, as it's hardcoded within NWN, it checks every item in a player's inventory, there's no fix for that. It's NWN :(
Making the prices higher will only make people collect more stuff and give everyone insane amounts of gold form collecting, let's say, skullcap leaves from the swamp. It won't make people clear their inventories, they'd just collect more, log off while collecting and log in to continue.
so if thats not a viable option, do you have any opinion regarding the inventory/storage - lag problem
Removing bags and boxes from the game would be an option as that would reduce the amount of items a player could carry in inventory...
And for everyone who wonders if he's lagging the server because of the number of items. If you're somebody who has like 20 bags/boxes full of items, then you probably are...
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"...so if thats not a viable option, do you have any opinion regarding the inventory/storage - lag problem?..."
In addition to what Ed suggested the only other real option is to use a different system/game engine for PW's. Not much else we can do/say because it is an NwN hardcoded situation.
In addtion when Ed stated 20 bags/boxes I would like to state if you have more than 5 or so then it is cause at least some sort of overhead problem.
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Faldred - 8/15/2006 11:54 AM
Gem dusts -- why only 10 in a stack instead of 99? Ditto for scrolls or sandpaper. Shouldn't star dusts, berries, leaves, herbs, etc., be stackable? Right now each takes a separate inventory slot, making them stack should make them easier to store in the limited spaces available. (Or does stacking add to lag?)
Agreed on all counts. It would alleviate a ton of inventory clutter (particularly with things like berries, aloe, and the like), and, (though correct me if I'm wrong), a stacked item becomes a "single" item with a variable indicating how many of it there is, no? Now, CONVERTING items to be stackable may be a bit trickier, though I recall a hak that does it somewhere. *searches Vault* Ah, here it is. (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=hakpaks.Detail&id=1469)
As for temple donations, not everyone has easy access to their deity's temples (Vorax has a temple on Mistone, but not even Zug is dumb enough to make the trip there on his own) -- perhaps creating a generic donation center in major towns and cities (Hlint Town Hall, for example) where a character can donate to the deity or relief effort of his/her choice would increase the donations and remove the extra items from the game while still giving the crafter (or finder, in the case of dropped items) some kind of IC "good feeling" for doing so.
This not only would be a lovely sink for extra craftable items, but could be RPed nicely as well - even characters without a deity might make a small donation; to Deliar before an arduous journey, perhaps, in the hopes of gaining the favour of The Protector on their trek; to Vorax or Toran after a virtuous battle (though not an epic one) that the character survived; to Mist before a sea voyage; to Shadon if they seek the blessing of the Trickster on some bit of skullduggery (or, quietly, to Branderback). The prescence of a nondenominational shrine would allow for these quick tithes to take place before departing on a quest - without making the donation an arduous task.
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Great ideas, DS. I'm wondering what the Team's opinion on making rentable storage available is, though?
Any input on how that could be done with the code would be great, too; I don't know enough about how it works to make real suggestions in that regard.
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Guys...inventory clutter is NOT the problem.
I can pretty much guarantee that if we made more things stackable, people would carry more because they have more room. Making things stackable essentially multiplies the amount you can carry. It's the theory that states that clutter expands to fill the space available....also known as the "Oh look! I have more room" effect.
The problem is the sheer number of items people carry in their inventories.
Perhaps my own perspective is skewed, but instead of coming up with ideas for complex systems or other ideas that would generate lots more work for a development team that already has plenty to do as it is, why not take a moment and ask yourselves if you can do things a bit differently to help alleviate the problems caused by excessive inventories? That is the simplest solution, and it can happen today, with no development time. I guarantee you...carrying less can be done. My own character did it for quite a while out of neccessity. I'm sure it can be done for reasons that help the server.
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More code (for storage or anything) = more lag.
When we used to have player vendors they worked awesome untill Layo got bigger and everyone and their brother had a player vendor filled with 327 salts and 125 cotton puffs. and a bazzilion stire wings.
It got to the point when some one accessed a player vendor we would have up to a minute or more of a lag spike.
The Player vendors were removed from layonare because people could not manage them themselves.
The storage issue has come up numerous times ( like L said you can almost set your watch to it).
How is opening up a storage deal full of lord knows what not going to cause lag?
The real answer here is the one no one seems to want to hear or listen to.
We have passed the limits of what NWN can handle and unless we give something back. Or find a new game engine. This issue will never go away.
Adding this or adding that will not fix this...... its time to take away.
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darkstorme - 8/15/2006 8:13 PM Faldred - 8/15/2006 11:54 AM Gem dusts -- why only 10 in a stack instead of 99? Ditto for scrolls or sandpaper. Shouldn't star dusts, berries, leaves, herbs, etc., be stackable? Right now each takes a separate inventory slot, making them stack should make them easier to store in the limited spaces available. (Or does stacking add to lag?)
Agreed on all counts. It would alleviate a ton of inventory clutter (particularly with things like berries, aloe, and the like), and, (though correct me if I'm wrong), a stacked item becomes a "single" item with a variable indicating how many of it there is, no? Now, CONVERTING items to be stackable may be a bit trickier, though I recall a hak that does it somewhere.
Read this:
Let me throw some numbers at you. Take a large chest that can be bought for housing. You can store 30 items in that chest. If the item is stackable, like gem dusts, then that number increases to 300 right off. Increase the stack size to 20 and now that's 600 items. Item/object creation in NWN is one of the most "expensive" operations in terms of CPU usage, which of course contributes to lag.
Stacking adds lag. Unstacking things would be a better solution instead of stacking.
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I've read through 100's of posts on this topic over the time I've been here, and I'm wearied by the endless debate as well. But this got me thinking:
You can store 30 items in that chest. If the item is stackable, like gem dusts, then that number increases to 300 right off. Increase the stack size to 20 and now that's 600 items. Item/object creation in NWN is one of the most "expensive" operations in terms of CPU usage, which of course contributes to lag.
If part of the problem is item creation (you open a persistent chest, and suddenly 30+ items need to created and put into the chest, creating a CPU load spike), and part of the problem is keeping track of those items in inventories of one sort or another, what if we didn't create the items until they were needed? What if they didn't exist anywhere in NWN?
The trick is keeping them only in the on-disk database. Suppose we had an NPC with a dialog script that would tell you what you had in the "safety deposit box" that he was keeping behind the counter for you. You could go through his dialog just like a CNR dialog/menu. When you got to, say for instance, item 23 -- stack of 10 topaz dusts, you would select it and he would get it for you (remove it from the database, create the item, and put it into your inventory). Unless you requested the item, it would never be created in NWN.
This method would still require DB accesses to get the items' names. I don't know anything about how much the DB/NWNX/mySQL/CodeBase accesses cost in terms of CPU load, so maybe that would be even worse for lag. And maybe the way the items are stored makes it difficult to get only their names. Maybe it's hard to set up the DB tables to support this idea. Can you tell I don't know much about databases?
But if the database works (or could be made to work) like I imagine, this idea might be a way to get objects out of the NWN model (including oxen/persistent chests/housing chests/character inventories) but still have them be available to characters when they (eventually) need them.
Just a thought. And yes, I'm willing to script up as much as I can and test it myself (including running a mock-up DB connected to a mock-up module) if someone will let me know what DB access methods are used on Layonara. But if those who know the system know this is a stinker of an idea, or just something that isn't going to happen, I'll drop it right now.
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This is almost sounding like global warming debates. What can you do to combat CNR lag? :)
I took note of a couple of Dorganath's responses, because I have found myself doing it - carry less stuff. I used to walk all over Layo, picking up every catnip, elderberry, vine (!) and angelica root I came across. Why? Because I thought I would use it someday, or sell it someday. Usually I didn't. Drawna has been carrying a box of aloe around for 2 weeks now and I still am trying run into somebody who will buy it. With 10 STR, every single pound makes a difference, and that box at 4.5 pounds is killing me. I never should have collected it without a buyer.
I draw maps on graph paper as I explore Layo. In fact, I've had to edit them on coming back after almost 2 years because things changed. Now when I come across new CNR, I make a note of its location - and walk away. I don't pick it up. Its hard to do sometimes, but ultimately its for the better. Look at every item in your inventory and ask yourself if you ~need~ it. Really need it. Gem dusts are the worst I think. I used to have a lot, but when I started back on this server I sold the whole box to somebody, probably for too low a price, but i got rid of it all and I don't miss it.
I will say the thought of a little extra rented storage would be nice, even another bank chest with ten more item slots. I also think the idea of a deposit box menu is an excellent idea by darkstorme. Don't have the items made until they are called up by the character.
Oh and, somebody tell me if i lag the server when I log in!
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West and Centrals bank vaults are not connected.
so thats 40 things on an Ox. 10 on West and 10 on Central.
Granted not eveyone thinks they can make it to Central server...
For 600 (or maybe 700) coin you can round trip to North Point, using the portal North of Hlint. bank there and come back.
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I think the best suggestion here has been that we (the players) manage our personal inventories better. The one thing that can be done by the team is to set a limit on the number of boxes and bags a character can carry or even harsher is to set a limit on the number (in total) of items a character can carry. I have always (for years) had issue with the amount of stuff a character can carry and still function. I know it is both a programmatic and game rules issue. When I ran PnP I never let a character carry more then 2 large weapons for instance. I own a large collection of weapons from around the world and let me tell you if you tried to strap 3 staffs, 2 axes, 4 long swords to your back and run around you would not get far. It is not the weight really it is that it is cumbersome. Have you ever seen how a set of full plate armor packs up if you did you would think twice about running around with two or three sets. I know this has all been brought up before and that this is not RL but a game (although the RL argument gets rolled out quite a bit) but I would be fine with some limits set on what a character can carry. After all, we all hate lag so we should all be willing to help here. I am off to count how much stuff my character is carrying and see what I can dump right now.
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I have about 6 bags on my character, so I am guilty to. But if you were to role play, how on earth(err Layonara) can someone carry that many large bags? I just got back from a weeks worth of camping and hiking, and canoeing. We had to carry everything on our backs. Our portages were horrible. If I had as much stuff with me as my character has, my brother and father would have left me to rot.
When I log back into Layonara, I will empty my inventory to be more reasonable. Granted none of my bags are full, but it might help a little. If each of us help out "a little", then we might just help in this situation. Leaving other things for the busy gm team. If Leanthar was making millions running this server I would say, hey, help us out. But since we are the ones earning here, we should fix this ourselves. If we can help here, then it might show us, we as a player base, can do plenty more things to make this world even better. And just think of the advancements the team can make if they did not have to worry about these things. Kudos to Filatus for bringing up that we (the players) need to police ourselves here. That has been said many, many times, but we need to just do it.
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I understand the lag problems, but Etinfall, IRL you don't have bags that magically reduce the weight of stuff you put in them.
And jrizz, the problem with reallism is that the point at which you are heavily encumbered in NWN according to your strength is actually when you're carrying as much as you can in PnP. For example, for 10 str, I believe we get to carry 100 lb before we are encumbered. In PnP, with 10 str, you can carry up to 33 lb without being encumbered, 34 to 66 lb encumbered, and 67 to 100 lb heavily encumbered. It's just that Bioware decided that, since in PnP you are usually a 4-man team and in NWN you are alone, you have to carry everything yourself(remember that in the original NWN you couldn't control your henchmen's inventory).
I think the best way to prevent this is to alter the encumberance system to resemble that of PnP.
This (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/carryingAndExploration.html)is where the table for encumberance is at, in ase anyone wants to check it.
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Varnart - 8/16/2006 3:12 AM I think the best way to prevent this is to alter the encumberance system to resemble that of PnP. This (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/carryingAndExploration.html) is where the table for encumberance is at, in ase anyone wants to check it.
Altering encumberance wouldn't help things in this case, because those items which are the biggest problem (fine gems and gem dusts) are weightless. Due to NWN engine limitations, we can either make them weightless or make them 0.1 pounds each (meaning a stack weights 1.0 pound). The weight of dusts, arrows and a few other things was set to be like that so that they weren't overly cumbersome. We could add weight to them, as described, in which case changing encumberance would not matter, as one's weight would be way up already.
Changing encumberance to more tightly follow PnP rules would really just hurt casters, as they tend to be weaker in general, need to carry spell components, etc. Engine limitations on weight don't allow for very realistic weights in a lot of cases, and so many things end up being heavier than they should be.
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Aye, I didn't mention real life in that post. But I do understand what you are saying. Somethings should follow "real life" in some way and some things shouldn't of course. The point I was trying to make is that this could be something we as players can work on. I thought it was a good idea.
Etinfall
Oh...an isea. Put some sort of restriction on magic bags. Have to have a set spellcraft level to utilize the magic in them. This would help spellcasters while limiting them to others. I really don't play spellcasters, but I could definitely live with that.
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I think one way to stop this would be to say that NONE of the CNR items in your inventory save with your character when you log out.
You need something, got get it, and use it. If you need 3 and you only have one get two more and use them, or log out and lose the one.
At the very least that would encourage people to collect items and put them in chests in houses or in the bank and use the items they have.
And this isn't a high-horse kind of comment, I'm sure Berdin probably has 200 gem dusts, aloe leaves, cut gems and alchemy vials on his person right now, but... if it were all gone when I logged in to play next it would just give me a reason to go mine some alexandrite or something.
Vyris
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Vyris - 8/21/2006 1:03 AM
I think one way to stop this would be to say that NONE of the CNR items in your inventory save with your character when you log out.
You need something, got get it, and use it. If you need 3 and you only have one get two more and use them, or log out and lose the one.
I like the 'perishable CNR' idea, but I don't think it would work. Gum Arabic is CNR. It is used to make sandpaper. It is also a material component for spells. Topaz Dust is CNR. I'm sure there must be a potion or something that requires it. It is also a material component for spells.
I'm not sure it's fair to constantly strip the mages of their material components, and I'm not sure there is any logical, non-frustrating reason that things like Gum Arabic, Topaz Dust, or even Iron Ingots should 'spoil' and need to be thrown out (aka automatically removed).
Also, gathering the CNR is sometimes an evening's work all on its own. Not everyone can spend hours at a time playing, and it would be extrememly frustrating to spend that limited time gathering CNR only to have real life interrupt and set the character back to square one.
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Yeah, not to completely shut down that idea Vyris, but that is not practical.
The reasons Gulnyr stated are important ones. But also consider that it's very, very, very unforgiving in the cases like server crashes, client crashes/disconnections and if someone dies and has to respawn to another server....not to mention personal emergencies that may require one to log out before they can spend an hour or more getting to a craft hall and processing the items.
To add to that....there are some resources which simply are not available on West or Central, and there's a conspicuous lack of craft halls on East.
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After further consideration... Clearly, for the time being, this is an issue (I hesitate to call it a problem) that requires the players to police themselves, and to exercise the associated restraint. Zug was certainly something of a pack-rat, especially considering that he works in virtually every craft (except those not available by reasons of class or alignment), and I must have dropped his inventory items by 70%, most of which were small stackable items such as gem dusts. No matter what the dev team does decide to do (or not do), now, in the future, or in V3, players still need to exercise a fair bit of inventory management themselves, so that even if a helpful management mechanism is in place, the players use it. The flip side of this, though, is that perhaps there should be (eventually) some in-game assistance for inventory management that the players can use to save crafting items -- especially hard-to-acquire items -- so that they will be later available without clogging up the charatcer's inventory and causing the associated lag issues. So, taking into account some of the other ideas and suggestions floating around, let me suggest The Crafting Bank™:
Operates as a dialouge-based system inside of crafting halls
Pro: Items are removed from game when deposited, only created on withdrawal
Con: Scripting overhead, requires variables to be kept/queried for each player
[/list]
Only certain items will be allowable to be "banked"
Renewable resources (raw CNR)
Certain byproducts (e.g., gem dusts)
No other intermediate products or any finished products
[/list]
Can limit the number of different items each player may bank (e.g., only 10 or 15 different types of item at any given time)
Can impose a maximum number of items per type stored in the "bank" (e.g., player may only store 99 of any given item)
Could even implement some sort of fee system to pay for storage, though not so high as to discourage use
[/list] When I say "type" above, I mean very specifically, i.e., "greenstone dust" would be a type, not "gem dust" in general. The maximum number of "types" and amounts per type would have to be tweaked by the team via playtesting to be efficient and useful, but not abusable. As far as fees go, one idea would be that rather than a transaction-based fee, have a periodic charge accrue if the player has anything at all in the bank -- if the player is unable to pay the fee, the assets are frozen (and crafter's badge disabled) until payment can be made. The most important part of the system is that, being dialog-based, the items "banked" would only be created on withdrawal, not on merely viewing the bank. Edit: typo
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I can say that if such a bank existed, especially in the craft halls, I'd use it. Absolutely. And I'd gladly pay to do so.
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Faldred - 8/21/2006 10:34 AM The flip side of this, though, is that perhaps there should be (eventually) some in-game assistance for inventory management that the players can use to save crafting items -- especially hard-to-acquire items -- so that they will be later available without clogging up the charatcer's inventory and causing the associated lag issues.
If I might suggest, the difficulty of obtaining some types of CNR is related to where the character should be in both character and crafting levels, and so if one does go to get some hard-to-get CNR that one cannot use yet, one might consider that perhaps they should wait rather than lugging said CNR around in their inventory, etc. A beginning weapon-crafter, for example, really has no business accumulating Platinum for sometime down the road. Get it when you can use it.
The rest of your post (regarding the crafting bank) is well-considered....and while not perfect does show some good thoughts. The cynical part of me, however, does think that people will fill up their crafting banks and continue to lament about inventory space for CNR. Even so, it is something we could consider for V3.
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The CNR bank sounds like a nice idea.
A beginning weapon-crafter, for example, really has no business accumulating Platinum for sometime down the road.
Hehe, a weapons crafter NEVER needs platinum. ;) *goes to hide from Dorg's wrath*
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Dorganath - 8/21/2006 11:50 AM
If I might suggest, the difficulty of obtaining some types of CNR is related to where the character should be in both character and crafting levels, and so if one does go to get some hard-to-get CNR that one cannot use yet, one might consider that perhaps they should wait rather than lugging said CNR around in their inventory, etc. A beginning weapon-crafter, for example, really has no business accumulating Platinum for sometime down the road. Get it when you can use it.
There is that. I was thinking as much about geographical disparity as actual difficulty -- it may require two or three separate excursions to gather all of the key materials necessary for a particular item.
The cynical part of me, however, does think that people will fill up their crafting banks and continue to lament about inventory space for CNR.
The only problem with being a cynic is how often people make you look like a prophet. :)
Pack-rats will be pack-rats, but even then, sonething like this should help a little.
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osxmallard - 8/21/2006 11:13 AM The CNR bank sounds like a nice idea. A beginning weapon-crafter, for example, really has no business accumulating Platinum for sometime down the road.
Hehe, a weapons crafter NEVER needs platinum. (http://../images/emoticons/wink.gif) *goes to hide from Dorg's wrath*
Even more of a reason to not amass platinum. :p
But um...substitute "weapon" for "armor" and we're all set.
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First if this is dumb (ie. caues more lag) please disreguard.
*note all times in RL time*
Can you scrpt the loss of "raw and unproccessed" CNR to dissapear from inventory after lets say 24 hours of being logged off? And start a progression from there.
Then first step proccessing goes "poof" after lets say 7 days (168hrs) This includes say all "cut gems - oils & acids created and used in processing - essences - parts used for processing (ie. sandpaper, sawdust, wire, springs & pullies for compound bows or traps, etc.)
Second step goes buy-buy in 30 days (720hrs)
If there are third step items 90 days (2,160hrs)
Finished products will stay forever.
*note* an enchantment used on another item is not a finished item. ALSO CNR with an extreme danger to collect to collect will be exempt, Diamonds and Emeralds (come to mind)
I hope these are good and easy ideas to implament *shrugs*
Zen
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Well, personaly...
If CNR didn't save with you when you logged out you could work around any problems by....
A) Giving mages a componant belt. or belt pouch that they could save a dozen charges of whatever componants they wanted on hand.
Also on that note, find me a mage who doesn't take the feat to be able to cast without componants as soon as it's available. Gathering spell componants is a collossal pain in the butt.
b) Chests would still save things, stockpile the harder to get things in chests. Opening up a warehouse that supplied rentable chests like whats available in the banks would be another money sink for Layonara.
c)It might even curb some of the "I craft because I have nothing better to do" mindset, make items rarer, and more valuable. Yet another money sink. Not a sink per se, but an impetus to move money in the economy around.
All I'm saying is if it's something someone really values than it's probably not that big of a deal for them to put it in a chest before they log off.
Vyris
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Vyris - 8/22/2006 1:23 AM
If CNR didn't save with you when you logged out you could work around any problems by....
All I'm saying is if it's something someone really values than it's probably not that big of a deal for them to put it in a chest before they log off.
Fair enough, but none of your solutions accounts for real life interruptions or hopping servers (except perhaps the spell component pouch, depending on just exactly how it works, and then, apparently, only for casters). In either case, you will be logging out and losing what you have gathered.
If a player has responsibilities that only allow play for short, irregular periods, that player should not be denied the chance to craft simply because the server constantly removes their CNR before they can use it. There are plenty of times real life won't wait for you to find a crate to stash things in.
In some cases, certain CNR is easier to gather on one server than another, or can only be found on one server. Dorganath mentioned CNR only found on East, where there are no craft halls. Changing servers is logging out, so how would anyone ever bring CNR from East to a craft hall for use?
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A couple of additions/clarifications to the "crafting bank" idea:
Although I didn't specifically say so before, spell components should be bankable
Since the new bank exists, bankable items that are currently stackable in inventory can be made non-stackable, or have stack size reduced
[/list]
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Gulnyr - 8/22/2006 6:01 AM
In some cases, certain CNR is easier to gather on one server than another, or can only be found on one server. Dorganath mentioned CNR only found on East, where there are no craft halls. Changing servers is logging out, so how would anyone ever bring CNR from East to a craft hall for use?
Bank chests.
Vyris
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Vyris - 8/22/2006 5:00 PM
Gulnyr - 8/22/2006 6:01 AM
In some cases, certain CNR is easier to gather on one server than another, or can only be found on one server. Dorganath mentioned CNR only found on East, where there are no craft halls. Changing servers is logging out, so how would anyone ever bring CNR from East to a craft hall for use?
Bank chests.
Vyris
Bank chests doesn't transfer between servers...
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Ok, maybe this is just evil... but how about having raw CNR disappear from inventory upon being sent to your bindstone?
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Hmmm. The question is, do Oxen work like the bank vaults only mobile? They CAN travel between servers. If they do, then a special component box could be created that works similarly, drop it on the ground and use it or a key on it to open the storage area, which can only hold CNR and spell components. Oh, give it a maximum weight it can carry, to keep it from being used to transport raw ore, or just prevent raw metal, wood, sand, or gemstones from being stuffed in it.
As far as eschew materials, not every caster takes it. Perago never did, he just walked around with a lion bag full of arabic gum.
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I don't like the idea of things automatically disappearing from inventory at all. There are too many opportunities for it to be missunderstood and for people to lose things that would then result in grievances and more work for the team. The idea of having rentable storage for those that haven't reached the point of having a house and permanent storage options sounds like a good idea. The other problem with the idea of CNR automatically being taken out of inventory is that some people like to keep things in their inventory and should be allowed to. If I have a mineral emerald and haven't decided what to do with it yet I may want to keep it in my inventory. This one item wouldn't cause lag and maybe a player wouldn't trust storage for something really valuable that could get lost in a crash. I am not saying that I would do this but I can see that some might and I don't see a compelling reason to make a system that affects everyone adversely do to the behavior of a few. Better to identify offenders and let them know who they are and ask them to reduce inventory than to penalize everyone on the world. This seems similar to the idea of changing spells because of how a few use them. The change affects everyone when the desire is really to change the behavior of a few. My two cents.
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Its rather amusing, but I know I've been suspect of the too much junk and too few cougar bags for a while now. So, after reading this post in its earliest form, I decided to spend an hour giving my inventory a clean sweep and reorganization last week. I'm not one to usually post on such things, but all the same, for those on the fence mabey my experience might tip you over. Not only did I end up gaining a level in alchemy, tailoring, and nearly another in gem crafting, but I went from having nearly 0lbs left to carry to freeing up 40lbs in my inventory.
Now, as my char can currently only carry 173lbs without encumbrance, that 40lbs means a lot :)
Just figured it might show that not only can a clean inventory benefit other players, but it you feel like a walking u-haul, a little spring cleaning may surprise you :)
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Well said Fatherchaos. We need to take care of this in the player base. Because any technical solution is going to be very bad for everyone :)
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Fatherchaos - 8/22/2006 4:25 PM
Not only did I end up gaining a level in alchemy, tailoring, and nearly another in gem crafting, but I went from having nearly 0lbs left to carry to freeing up 40lbs in my inventory.
Astonishing what spending an hour's focused work to get those final pieces to the recipies you've been working on for a month or so can clear out.
As for all of these ideas about tearing CNR from one's inventory... Come on. The number of grievance posts would skyrocket from people crashing, or an unexpected monster coming along to kill them in a spot of heavy lag... Or the server crashing. Crafting would instantly become a LOT harder - inordinately so, especially for alchaemists, food crafters, and others who have to gather a WIDE variety of CNR to make even the simplest of items.
The solution here is in better management by the playerbase. I'm actually astonished that noone's rented thier place out as a storage warehouse, yet...
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This is still happening...a lot. This has almost gotten to the point of griefing. When someone logs on and the server lags for several seconds, characters can be killed and lose soul strands. And yes, in some cases, their character all together from permadeath. Please, have consideration for the player base and manage your inventory.
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This isn't all bad inventory management. This has happened since 1.68. Every character lags the server, granted people with huge inventories lag it a bit more... but still, there is always a noticable pause on all logins.
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twidget658 - 11/24/2006 10:13 PM
This is still happening...a lot. This has almost gotten to the point of griefing. When someone logs on and the server lags for several seconds, characters can be killed and lose soul strands. And yes, in some cases, their character all together from permadeath. Please, have consideration for the player base and manage your inventory.
"Griefing is the act of intentionally causing another player emotional harm by a verbal assault. It is also the act of intentionally causing players to not be able to have fun in the world (following them and being a nuisance, blocking doorways, pick pocketing/stealing, kill stealing when asked not to, camping when asked to leave an area, being rude and obnoxious etc.)" - http://nwn.layonara.com/Player%20Rules
Regardless of whether this is annoying it is not griefing. Griefing is an action targeted at a player or group of players to intentionally cause them harm.
Large lag spikes on log in are also exacerbated by whatever else is going on on the server at the time of the login. If you're running a high VFX battle with a lot of enemies thats going to make any additional things the server is trying to do (like logging people on) take longer.
On east in particular lately I've noticed large lag spikes on player login at times even for players that don't have huge numbers of items in their inventory.
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I dunno about *every* character lagging the server, at least not noticeably as a spike. the only lag spikes I notice are when the ones log in that for sure have full[er] inventories.
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Something that no one has said but might work. Call them out. If you are in the middle of doing something and you stop for 10 seconds, then see "MrUgly has joined as a player", guess what? MrUgly has entirely to much crap in his inventory. Post it. Scripting won't work. Complaining won't work. Begging the devs to please make this change, that change and every other change won't work. Public shame might. If you see it, and it bothers you, post. Say "I was playing on West @ thus and such atime and when MrUgly logged in, the server ground to a halt for 10 seconds." That will then be followed quickly by the "me too" posts. MrUgly will then either A) examine his inventory and go "Oh crap, I *do* have a lot of stuff. How careless of me. Let me rectify the problem forthwith" or B) Bug off. It's my game time and you can't stop me. Nyah nyah nyah"
You know who the character is. You know who is causing the lag. Either identify them so they feel the burden or public scrutiny, or don't complain. What is, is. These are the limitations we have to work with. If it bothers you that much, do something about it. Stop begging the devs to make a fix when it's obvious the players are at fault. Hold the players accountable and maybe something will get done.
That being said, will I be posting? No. Why? Because the lag doesn't bother me overmuch. I have been playing online games for years and lag has always been a part of the experience. I got used to it.
So either take it upon yourself to police your neighbors and explain the error of their ways, or stop complaining about it. It won't change unless the players decide it will.
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Man, I hope the sever doesn't lag when I log on. Don't want to be stoned by the community. I know I will refrain from logging in at all.
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Uh, or one could politely (or whatever passes as politeness for you; it's probably deadpan sarcasm in my case) send them a tell informing them of the situation before the "let me just post the problem to everyone else so the drama may ensue" option that is already a little overused.
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^^ What Acacea said. I would rather get a couple tells informing me than see my name in a post here on the forums.
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Acacea - 11/25/2006 1:28 PM Uh, or one could politely (or whatever passes as politeness for you; it's probably deadpan sarcasm in my case) send them a tell informing them of the situation before the "let me just post the problem to everyone else so the drama may ensue" option that is already a little overused.
It all comes down to the fact that we're a community and we should act like one.
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We *are* a community. We should act like. In your community, do you whine when people act in an anti-social behavior? Do you stomp your feet and say "Gosh darnit, someone ought to do something!" Or do you stop whining and put the responsibility squarely where it belongs? Dorgonath, Leanthar other Dev-types have said ad nausium what the problem is. "People with too much stuff in their inventory." Ok. Problem identified. Now. What do we do about said problem? Huh? Huh? Whine some more? Make useless suggestions that can't or won't be implemented? Or do we tune up the players that are being wankers and solve the problem? Everyone wants to stand around and complain and no one is willing to take action. No one is willing to step up and say..."YOU THERE! With the 20 boxes of CNR! *YOU* just caused a 15 second lag spike...FIX IT!" Why, that would be rude! Impolite! Scandalous! It would also get the worst offenders out from under their comfortable rocks of anonymity and make them clean up. Boils down to this: Take action about a problem, or suck it up. Those are your two choices.
Etinfall - [/FONT]11/25/2006 1:13 PM Man, I hope the sever doesn't lag when I log on. Don't want to be stoned by the community. I know I will refrain from logging in at all.
That would be an unfortunate over-reaction. Assuming the server did lag and the cause was inventory, rather than refraining from logging in, manage your inventory. Problem solved, happy gaming ensues. [/FONT]
[/FONT]Acacea - 11/25/2006 1:28 PM Uh, or one could politely (or whatever passes as politeness for you; it's probably deadpan sarcasm in my case) send them a tell informing them of the situation before the "let me just post the problem to everyone else so the drama may ensue" option that is already a little overused.
I happen to be a very polite person when discussing issues with people. Part of my day is spent in negotiations and using diplomacy. I just think public shaming is a fast, effective tool for solving this particular dillema. Can you honestly say that there are people that have been playing the game long enough to have acquired bags and boxes full of crap that *don't* know that those same bags and boxes are causing lag? Piffle. They know, they simply don't care. They don't notice the lag when they log on, so it's obviously not their problem. How do you deal with people that choose to not care about their actions? Private messages? Sure thing. Might just work. With any luck, they will read this post and go "Jeeze, that guy is a jerk! I hope he doesn't post my name there. That would be embarrassing. Maybe I should see what I can dump." Ta-DAA! More likely, they will say "Jeeze, that guy is a jerk! I bet no one will post because no one wants to look like they are singling others out." That is MUCH more likely. And so our adventures in lag continue. [/FONT]Yippie.
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My wife and I messed around with this last night. She has a level 5 PC, with like 10 things in her inventory. Every time she logged that PC in I lagged. While I know having a huge inventory will lag, so does simply logging in.
Every single time someone logs into Central, I lag horribly (anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds). I am running a beast of a machine, so it is not my PC. I can be on central by myself and one person logging in causes the lag. It is rather funny, but one day I logged in to central and someone (I won't use names) sent me a tell saying I was lagging the server (which I know and I am sorry). That same person logged out and came back and I was lagged for almost 10 seconds. I didn't bother sending them a tell, because I know it is the nature of the server right now.
I know we can try to do things as players to help, but the point is that logging in causes lag to everyone, period. I chalk it up as another negative trait to go along with my day blindness on my drow =P If i'm not under the negative affects of blindness, it is log in lag =).
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Umm...I just made the post as a reminder and an awareness check. However, I did sort of want to emphasize it.
Doing something about? I did. I bumped this thread with some possible consequences of what could happen. I didn't consider it whining.
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Please, I doubt anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes talking to me thinks that I am so overly concerned with being 'nice' that I will refrain from being frank with someone, which is what I was doing here--'frankly,' I'm tired of the drama and finger-pointing that goes on in the forums, and the quick-draw reporting when someone else perceives that someone else is doing something wrong, without ever having any direct contact with the people they're quick to talk about or post about. Yeah! I don't have to actually be super nice or polite, I can yes, actually force myself to speak directly to someone! MrUgly logs on, my screen skips for 5 minutes, I /tell "For christ's sake clean up your inventory, you're killing the server"
It's one big whine-and-blame-fest and I don't like the idea of contributing to it by encouraging everyone to 'publicly humiliate' others to get the point across. Perhaps it's because as much as I enjoy humiliating others, I like it on a more personal level. The original post even asked people to inform him if it were the case with him; he had noticed other people lagging the server and wondered, does this happen to me? Why does no one tell me? Should I tell others if it happens to them? Or did anyone actually read the original post? Perhaps it's just too outdated now?
Or maybe there was a database cleanup and some people still have more things on their person than usual because they can't log on that often, or logged off after collecting something and will be using or storing it afterwards. I don't know; some people likely do need a specifically targeted public reminder, but I don't really see why you can't just give them a head's up before 'acting like a community' and bringing back the practice of stoning.
I know preemptive firing "just in case" is well-loved around where I live, but if I had to single out one thing that I actually hated about Layonara rather than idly wished I could change, that has made me consider leaving more than once, it would be the WIDESPREAD practice of private back-stabbing and public targeted complaining without EVER speaking to a person directly. Many problems could have easily been solved that way but no one ever does it and for me this is just another example, if at least a lighter one whose intentions are to serve a purpose.
I don't know, maybe it's just because I don't like large groups of people or dealing with them, but I am in general much more comfortable and able to answer questions and take note of things when someone can work up the nerve to say something to my face instead of turning around and screaming out the window, which for me personally is what people do when they need a whole lot of backup if they don't feel capable of talking to me alone.
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Acacea hits the nail on the head.
If you see someone lagging the server on logon, shoot them a Tell. Plenty of people in this thread have said they wouldn't mind getting one like that, and I'm one of those people.
Now, if you get some sort of nasty "YOU STINK DONT PM ME ILL KILL YOU RAWR" message back, then perhaps there's a problem, but that sure isn't just inventory mismanagement. ;)
I have a firm belief that, despite a few cells of backstabbity, gossipy folk, (of which I was once one), Layonara is a friendly, helpful community who'll take constructive criticism and put it to good use.
To Memillies:
The idea of an Eschew for crafters seems, at first glance, like a good one, but... Part of the reason high-level crafters have to put so much effort and time into crafting IS getting those then-minor components. I mean, a 20th level Tinker still has to empty the deserts to make a Crystal Rod IV, otherwise what's the point? It's a balance issue. The only reason Pyyran doesn't churn out potions of Cure Moderate Wounds like gatorade is because he has to get aloe to make those potions. It's the same for Cat's Potions, Bull's, Bear's...
And with a recent surge in rentable player housing, it's easier to get a bit of storage when you HAVE to carry a few things around.
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The point to my post was to just do something rather than whine about it. The moaning about something that is driven by a players actions is as insipid as it pointless. Send a private message. Send a tell. Post it on the forum. Email. Snail mail. Just don't keep whining about it. Either take an action, or put a sock in it. This goes forlogin lag, racial issues, power-leveling, casual vs. dedicated gaming. Either take an action designed to ellicit a response and change the world, or don'tcomplain.Really quite basic.
Just as a side note, while the lag is created by played-induced inventories and the what not, a better newer faster world server would likely go a long way to resolve that. Did any of the complainers click the Make a Donation (http://../../donate.asp)link located on almost every page? No? Oh...just checking.
As far as the back-stabbing that goes on, I can't comment on it. There is a known quanity of players that act like drama queens and try to wrap the server around their collective fingers. I avoid them,problem averted. I play for my own enjoyment; if that means I am swept into world altering events, YAY for me. I'll role play the best I can. If not, meh. I enjoyed my time.
Edited. I was informed that one of my word choices, while descriptive, might have been offensive.
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@Laldiien,
That is a post that is right on the mark!
We need to put it on a poster so that perhaps a few people will read and heed the words! Right on and totally agree.
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Laldiien - 11/25/2006 5:17 PM Either take an action designed to ellicit a response and change the world, or don't complain. Really quite basic.
Posting openly is a way to elicit a response.
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Sorry to but in, but as a relatively new player tothe layonara world, I've noticed the same thing myself.
Basically, crafting takes a LOT of misc. garbage and it's hard to advance into actually building something.
Arrows alone take skills in Cooking, Tinkering, Mining/Smelting, and Wood Working.
That means a lot of failures in each, and a lot of back ups to carry around for each failure.
I love the Crafting system on Layonara but I don't love causing server lag because I have to carry around all this stuff to make one thing.
It seems to me you already have a system in place that could be modified to work on a level like the "crafting Bank" suggestion.
Use your pawn shops like a pawn shop. Sell the stuff to the Pawn Broker, then have them buy it back later if they need it at a higher price - or have them buy a "marker chit" that will keep the prices resonable to buy these things back.
(i.e. everything sells to the pawn broker for around 1 gold - a marker chit makes them buy it back at 3 gold - instead of 14 gold for a packet of salt.)
That way, once they exit out of the Pawn broker dialog, the items can be removed from the server until they are needed again.
And just like a real pawn shop there could be limits on time before the items are trashed, sold to whomever wants them. (I hate logging along that extra bag of sawdust or piece of cotton all the time but it comes in handy next time.) Give 'em 7 days to collect their garbage or sell it to the next newbie who wants this stuff but can't go get it. (When I play it's often only 4 to 7 people on the west server and not many low levels interested in helping me mine copper when they can mine iron alone.)
There are some cons in scripting this but you could try a test market in Hlint. I'm actually someone who would rather pay 90 gold for 30 bags of sawdust instead of using my time collecting it.
For myself, something like this would help with all the Crafting tools I have to carry around. My ox pack is full of all my tools and I have no room to collect heavy CNR in it. And since Shifty Semli can't sell a good axe or pick, I have to have doubles of most of those- at least.
It seems that modiffying this existing system might help the problem a bit, help newer players / lower level char.s, and offer a permanent store for CNR of sorts that Layonara lacks right now.
As for calling people out, I don't like the idea and there are some things that others need to remember:
-Houses cost a LOT of money that Lower levels just do not have.
-Housing is at a premium and it's hard to find a room muich less a house. (Rooms in Lelion are going for 3000 true a RL month! My Char has 4000 true total and that's his life savings so far.)
-Crafting takes a LOT of stuff that Lower levels have no choice but to carry around until they can afford a house.
-Ox Packs and Bank Chests are significantly limited in their carrying capacity. (I Can carry more than my ox and bank chest together.)
-Newer people aren't aware of all the server problems the inventory is causing all the time and it's hardly welcoming to get Griefed your first week on-line for not having any alternatives or not being aware of the problem it causes. Layonara does not seem like this type community and I joined because of that - not to mention the availability for abuse and the attracting of players who enjoy that sort of thing. Posting just legitimizes it.
As an alternative, expanding bank chests and keeping the items off-line until they are actually opened is another idea I had. The system is in place already and would need tweaked but might be easier than my pawn shop idea.
I hope this helps but I have almost zero knowledge of scripting for a server it might not. I am aware of the problems it causes but seem powerless to stop it and continue playing the game in any feasible way by trashing my entire inventory of needed tools and CNR everytime I log off. I've got all this stuff, just no place to put it.
Thanks for your time.
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Bank chests and such ARE "off-line" until actually opened. The reason they are so small is to discourage people from hoarding stuff.
Your pawn shop idea sounds good, but that's essentially the same system as was in place a while back, when the playerbase was MUCH smaller, and it still made the server grind to a halt every time someone accessed the guy.
It's not the people with three or four dozen items that are causing problems... It's the people with ten or twelve score, carrying them around for a rainy day.
Making 750 gold every week isn't too tough if you play a couple of hours every day. That said, many people can't play that much, and that's... Well, tragic, but not something that can be fixed by some system or rule.
As a solution for your CNR woes, buy the stuff from other people. Need copper? Find a half-orc stupid enough to give you three tonnes of the stuff for a good meal. Greenstone? Perhaps the local alchemist and gemcrafter would help; after all, he needs reagents for Cure potions, too.
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Alright, I understand that, but I have another suggestion...
Can someone please take "Shifty" Semli the Craftsman vendor to task on the shoddy work on his tools?
I have doubles of just about everything because they break. I've had a copper handaxe- the same one - since level 2. I've gone through probably 30 wood axes.
The same goes for Picks, sewing kits, needles, carpenter tools, gen tools, tinker tools... All of them break at a remarkable rate and I carry spares around when I am going to use one.
It doesn't make sense to me that a copper handaxe lasts far longer than an iron woodaxe (and lets be honest here, I get as much, if not more usem out of that copper handaxe because virtually all Wood is near some nasty critter or two- and I use it when I am mining as well.) But the copper one keeps on going like the energizer bunny and the wood axe will break just about once every outing.
I did have a good pick tonight. It let me get 3 nuggets of copper before breaking.
If we got "Shifty Semli" to make some better tools then I would have a much much smaller inventory on my ox or on my character should I decided to go anywhere.
Or is it possible to offer some newer recipes for non-breakable items for CNR collection - Like an iron woodaxe that is three times harder to break - hence less of them and more stuff for people to make- again I don't understand why a copper handaxe can't cut wood- it cuts through Treants and Assassin vines pretty well.
Well I'm tired and just musing, but better tools might help a little bit. It would certainly thin my inventory by about half!
Thanks
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Crafting is not meant to be "fast" or "easy"...so the amount of time and resources it takes are all intentional things. Personally, I do not understand why individuals and guilds hoard some CNR, especially the low-end CNR, just in case they might need it. I admit, I have been guilty of this myself, but ultimately I ended up spending too much time shuffling inventory and even just throwing some of it away. Right now, the only CNR I try to keep in inventory or stored away for use is the stuff that's harder to get. I know very successful crafters who have not turned their homes into chest-filled warehouses...even successful crafters who do not own homes or have one available even.
On tool breakage...Again, these things are intentional. Weapons are designed to be weapons and to take abuse (and the breakage/wear-and-tear/fatigue of such is the subject of another discussion). Tools wear out. Plain and simple. Broken tools help keep crafting slower and drains small amounts of gold from the economy. In short, we want it this way.
But in reality, your extra tools do not really contribute to lag like other things do.
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I have no trouble crafting in batches over a few days if it is something hard. I make everything in a batch of 14 that are really hard (such as potions). Other things, such as metals or wood crafting, I just do all at once. Crafting is easy if you break it down into steps, and does not require a huge inventory to do it. Even complicated things such as scribing which has a need for several different items in it's steps, which I think comes to a total of like 12 items for 1 scroll.
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I have been away for a bit so has not been able to join this interesting debate until now. However I do wish to make a few comments.
First of all I understand why people find the lag spike upon login annoying. However hanging individual out on forums that cause lag spikes is something I would see as very much against the spirit of a community. And let’s take the example a bit further. PlayerX logs in, causes a 15 sec lag spike and his name is then posted. What if he simply replies “I need my stuff, too bad folks” what then, that has given no solution to the problem, unless you forcefully want to have someone “fix” him. The only thing we have gained in this example is most likely some animosity between PlayerX who caused lag and PlayerY who posted it. Hardly beneficial to a community spirit I think. I think Acacea wrote very well about that in her post.
Then what about those blasted crafters that carry excessive amounts of things in their packs? As 8-bit stated you can craft in small batches, but I will say that in that way it’ll take you a long time to get anywhere. Let’s face it, crafting is grinding, and to do it you need as much of a CNR material as possible and preferably as fast as possible and get the best xp/resource/danger ratios. I speak from personal experience here, I have gathered and cut and polished literally thousands of gems. I know for alchemy the need for items is far worse, and I fully understand why people that want to be good at alchemy collects many an item that they will need later on.
Now the idea of having CNR disappear when you log out I find truly frightening. Let’s say you go gather a really hard to get CNR but due to RL you have to log suddenly or you suffer a disconnect…then it’s lost. I for one would feel quite upset about that.
I will speak from personal experience creating and running a crafting guild along with Harloff and Wintersheart at first. We have lots of storage, I’d guess in excess of 70 chests, but that can be filled quite easily when you’re supposed to be able to deliver any item and cover any craft. To actually become skilled you will need excessive amounts of CNR, so it’s quite understandable people hoard it. Now don’t read this as me saying “oh it’s sooo hard I want crafting made so I can level 1-20 in 1 day” but rather as a statement of how things are or how I for one perceive them.
I will also say that I think Laldiien is right that you shouldn’t whine. However I think constructive criticism and an open debate is a valuable thing in any community. If you think about it before posting and try to explain why something is a problem in a constructive way then it can be a valuable thing I’d say. And criticism can easily be made without the need to neither point fingers at anyone nor whine about it, simply state things/problems as you perceive it and explain what you think could help this problem. The trick it to try and remain reasoned and objective in your post.
I guess as my concluding remark I will say that the NWN engine, as stated often enough, is not very well suited for PW’s, so lag is to be expected.
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Car'l O'mek made an interesting comment about the always breaking tools and Dorg, I understand the reasoning behind your reply. Which leads me to a question . . . are the crafted tools (ones characters make) designed to last longer than the tools the merchants sell?
~ Jil
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But what about my 17 boxes of bat guano.. Who will give the orphans Voraxmas presents this year if they are thrown out? *cries* Think about the children, man! Everything MUST be stockpiled! *runs around frantically picking up everything that isn't nailed down and stuffing them into mystical, inter-dimensional pockets*
Where do people PUT all this random stuff anyhow?
As a diehard crafter, I understand the compulsive need to stockpile however, and add that the more crafting is convoluted with measures to slow its progress to the point of being full-time, 40 hour a week, real life JOB, the more inventories will bulge for the purpose of binging. When spools of thread, molds, gears, feathers and about a thousand other minutia were added to normalize the crafting xp, then yes, inventories increased accordingly. If traffic is bad, yelling at the drivers has no effect. Fixing the road is the best measure. The very fact that people gather base grains for things like flour, go out and painstakingly mil every cow in order to procure butter, and face a field of orcs every time they are in need of textiles shows a very illogical economy. When one can ransom a king for 10 boxes of eggs, one begins to wonder why none of the NPC merchants ever decided to sell eggs. Such a man would quickly ascend into the uppermost echelon of wealth, nobles would quake and he would be as a king above kings... with but a single coop of 20 chickens.
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Hehehe... This sounds like the reality we get when the Farming system is used. ;)
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This issue has reared its ugly head again. When I am on the server, I can really feel when somebody comes in with a whole lot of items in their inventory and in their boxes. Sometimes the lag can last for 12 seconds or more. This has happened on one or more occasion.
Now thats fine and dandy when one is just Roleplaying and people are talking in places like Port Hempstead. But think about if people were fighting a nasty and tough creature/s and there was a 12 second lag because of bad inventory management? I don't think people would be very appreciative about that.
So please be considerate to your fellow players in regards to inventory management. Thank you.
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You know, I never knew it was the inventories that caused lag. Not being a coder, or builder or anything I always figured it was mostly due to player load on the server. The more players, the worse the lag. And maybe some scripting issues here and there ( I got that from a scripter who told me the more lines to a code the more lag).
Having heard people think up so many reasons for bad lag, from running around with your inventory screen open to having your map on. I just kinda went with whatever was the prevailing opinion of the time. Especially since I really had no idea. And being the random chaotic person that i am would offer up something completely insane, but not so much so that it couldnt be believed. ;)
Hearing this from the DMs,GMs, and coders will help alot I think. Cause now people will know whats causing such bad lag and will make them think about if they are part of the problem or not.
So before griping about lag, check your inventories. Then maybe you too can help prevent server lag. ;)
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Until very recently, Ceviren Lightstaff contributed to this, and I wasn't very happy with it. But now, his inventory is nice and light again.
Donate your useless junk to temples. :)
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**looks through Steel's inventory** ... oh boy...
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does the check of journal updates cause some lag as well, i notice sometimes it takes a bit to update everything a char has done when they log in?
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Well, to be honest, I add some too... M inventory has 2 empty pages, but the others are filled with boxes >.> Some are empty! but.... thats like 2 out 15.... And most of what I carry is what shiff makes and sells, or food. So like, 3-5 bags of gems, molds, jewelry and food. the rest is crafting tools, and items I use....
Someone wanna help?
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Inventory -on- the character is the only stuff that counts when you log in.
For my part I normally try and do all my crafting and gathering and stuff in succession while I'm on and I've gotten in the habbit of tossing stuff I can identify by sight, like rations and minor things, even though Caighd can't.
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does the check of journal updates cause some lag as well, i notice sometimes it takes a bit to update everything a char has done when they log in?
No, that's actually a delayed process that is minimally impacting. In fact it rebuilds the journal from what is stored in the database.
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I hope when I log in as Godim, the lagspike ain't very horrible, he has a bunch of stuff on him though.. so let me know if there is problems from me logging in.
EDIT: Dumped much junk to chests, hopefully this helps in the long run :)
~Chazzler
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Sorry Ladies and Gents. Psuedo eloquently influenced me last night to do some spring cleaning, "LOL...i swear when ALandric logged it lagged the server a good 5-6 seconds."
So i spent a good 2 hours biting the bullet and trashing most of my stuff. God I didn't realise how much I had. It's a bad habit when you're a crafter. You run past something and think "I'll grab that for later". Well I was lucky to have one page free. Also Every container I had was full.
Anyway I've done my part now. I hope it aids speeding it up.
Polak76