Layonara - my opinion

[Niles09]

I've played Layonara in a month or two now, have reached lvl 8 and seen the most of Mistone, so I thought this would be a good point to say what I think of this world.
First of all I've been playing DnD pen & paper for some years, both as player and as a DM, and I've also played the BG series, Icewind, Morrowind and now nwn and Layonara, so Im not without experience  in this!

The game: At first sight layonara is really great, there is quest which means, that it all wont end up in monster slaughter for xp. Second the roleplay is really great, I can easily use half an hour just to interact with anoter players char. My char is a drow and because of that, she is often annoyed and called bad things, but I've never felt that it turned out to more than RP.
   But as things go on, and the char raises in lvl, Layonara looses a bit of the charm. The few quesets are fastly done, so there isnt much to do, the char really needs much xp to raise in lvl, and the crafting can be frustrating.
why? well I think the crafting system is good, but it in the start there is a lot o luck in it, and it is extremly annyoing to hit between 1 and ten five times in a row. It would be nice if you could craft some more, and need lesser xp in the start of crafting. Finding the components, piecing them together and so on is really great though, that part of the crafting system is good, and unique.
When I began to realize the extreme hough amount of xp, I must earn to raise in lvl, I first thought it was really stupid, but after some time I realized that, on that way people wouldnt turn into xp hunting players but consentrate on playing the game the Rp way! - getting friends, evolve their char psychotically, and so on. But I still think that it is fair that a char need the same xp to raise in lvl, that it has got in the hole game. The develoment of the char is great - like real roleplay, in games wich, on the other hand, runs with the normal xp, you really dont have the time to do that.
About the quests, that one of the things where Layonara needs to better. There is simply too few of them, and they are too simple. It would be great with some sort of campaign quest (Kill the servant who got papers -> prevent the traitor from killing someone -> and finally kill the bad guy) or some quests with convesation and puzzles. It isnt necesarry to ploth extremely anvanced quest, there is lots of books, films and games to take from. of course there is GM quests, but because LAyo is a whole world game, it can be hard to get time for them.
The strong side of Layonara is the GM quests, the CDQ's mostly. They are great and very fun, and they make it possible to interact with enemies instead of others chars only. They make stories, and changes in the world - for a short time... I think it would be even greater if those quest actually changed something, when they ends all turns into normal again anyway.
As for te world virtually, the custom made tilesets are used very good, and the monsters too, but the world have a lack of detail, some areas simple doesnt serve as anything. The towns are to low populated with NPC's. The first time I reached Spellguard I thought it was cursed or something! I also think the sellers are putted very unauthentic together in one house. A market in HLint would be much better than those two houses. Anyway the virtual part of Layonara is the last thing to improve, since it only visually.

This site: Only the this forum is useful for players who have played the game in a week. The menue (up in the right cornor) is really only usable for new players, but it has a great unused portential. History... on home it says that every player can change the world, but I dont see the changes. I think there should be a closer discreption of the deeds of the players, and what about the few epic lvl chars? havent they earned a place there? I think there should be a lot more about the different players. I also think this site could have good of a new look. Works of the players could be in different cornors, there is a lot of good poetry which could be used in citates there.

I simply dont understand how the GM's and particularly Leanther have made all this! They put a huge amount of work and time in this, so I just wanna say that all this is just what I think would be good, and I understand if you scip it all, since I think my ideas would take too much time and work to make, and who says that other would like them? I just want to say thanks for the great time I've spent here, because of Leanther and Co's.

(sorry for my broken english and I've probaly ad some more here, besides say what YOU think of the Layonara.

[Dorganath]

Well, glad you like it here....you do like it here, right?
  Some responses (and no I'm not invalidating anything you say, just giving another perspective):
  One the crafting thing...No one is an expert overnight.  If you need proof of this, walk out of your RL home, find the nearest forest, chop some sturdy branches from a tree and make bows out of them.  Go ahead...I'll wait.  Seriously though, failure is as much a part of learning as success, and chances are really good that you'll have a lot more failures as a beginner than you do successes. 
  On the quest thing...I assume you're talking about NPC quests.  Not sure what to tell you there.  There are several quests of this type, but they're meant for flavor, exploration and teaming up with others, not as a long-term XP gathering vehicle.
  On the amount of XP to gain a level...yeah, the amount of XP required goes up as you progress through the levels.  However, XP rewards on GM-run quests also go up as you progress through the levels.  And as you correctly realized, the non-standard XP progression does help to slow the advancement of characters, helping to discourage powerleveling and XP hunting and encourage RP instead. 
  On changing the world...yeah, you can change the world, but that doesn't mean every quest, GM-led or otherwise, is going to have a noticeable effect.  And no, things to not always return to normal when a quest is finished.  Plot quests, for example, dramatically and permanently affect the world. Check the timeline.  See the part about the recovery of the lost elven library (now the Great Library)?  That was done by characters in-game...and right afterward, Bloodstone himself stormed Hlint. Yes, really.  Have you heard of Shadison?  Player characters had a hand in that, too, though they're not too happy about that fact.  That Underdark quest you were on last weekend was a part of a much larger quest series that could potentially really screw things up for either the Drow nation or the surface-dwellers...depending on how things go.  There are many, many other examples.  This campaign itself has been running, literally, for years, only a fraction of which are in an online form.  Major world-altering changes don't, and shouldn't, happen every day. Short version: Rome wasn't built in a day.
  On the quantity of GM-led quests....there are only so many GMs, and every one of them have RL obligations and they also like to spend some time playing their own characters in the world.  Even with that, Layonara typically has 40+ quests per month, plot and otherwise.
  On the population of towns...Spellgard in particular is not really "finished" as a city, as the Team has had other, more important, things to do.  Still, there are very good story/plot reasons for having Spellgard as a place in-game and not just one that's described but inaccessible.  And in general, there's not a lot of NPCs in any town because of lag issues.  Read the handbook and check the population info on the towns.  While you're there, RP that there are crowds of people...far more in fact than are represented in-game.  Hlint, for example, has a population of 2000-ish, but if even 10% of that number were represented, the lag would be horrid....and the town would be crowded.
  In summary, a lot of things in this world are the way they are for a good reason, that being years of play-testing, balancing and player feedback.  There's always room for improvement, but such improvements should not unbalance the world or otherwise subtract from what has taken Leanthar and everyone, players included, so long to create.  Nothing is static, though.  The world continues to evolve.

[Niles09]

I now the NPC quests are for teaming up, but that doesnt mean there are more of them, and they are still jsut usual, kill boss, get item and go back. And I never said that there should be more DM quest, what I mean is when it is 19:00 in america (wich probaly is the best time to start a GM quest, so it ends about 02:00 at night) its 01:00 in Denmark and Europe where I am, and that means that now where the holiday is ended most people over here, can only play these Dm quests in the weekend, and sometimes not even there, so it would be nice with some more NPC quest wich dont go on for 5 hours. About the crafting your right, but on the other hand, If I walked out to a wood I think I would be able to find more than about 4 useable branches, thats what I ment, when I reached lvl 2 in woodcrafting Ive used about 60 branches and maked about 15 trips to the wood. (but okay I was particular unlucky while crafting wood, it went better with tinkering).
The timeline, there could defenitly be more about those adventures, and the tales of high lvl chars.
About your last line, I know this world evolves, and this was simply my suggestion for the next improvement.

[Filatus]

Niles09 - 8/19/2005  4:00 PM

what I mean is when it is 19:00 in america (wich probaly is the best time to start a GM quest, so it ends about 02:00 at night) its 01:00 in Denmark and Europe where I am, and that means that now where the holiday is ended most people over here, can only play these Dm quests in the weekend, and sometimes not even there

I do not agree with you on this, there are at least three GM's for our timezone, I'm GMT+1 like yourself. Harlas, Mixafix and IDii do their quests mostly at GMT evenings. I don't think two months of play is enough to actually form a good opinion on this matter. IDii for example only recently started GM'ing again. I think it's quite normal if they aren't active for a month or longer from time to time. Even GM'ing can get a little bit frustrating if you don't take the occasional break.

If they don't, they might evolve in evil GM's whose sole pleasure is the creation of quests specifically designed for DT'ing innocent players.

[Guardian 452]

We have had Crafting houses burn down because of player actions or lack their of....

Then people had to raise coin to get them rebuilt.... and some weren't re built.

A temple was added to the world thru the efforts of a player.

The world does indeed change thru the actions of the players.... but it will never happen on a huge scale, meaning not every single Player Character will create such a lasting effect on the world. But it could happen to anyone.... and IMO a CDQ would be one of the best ways to go about it.


Town Population - It is low because NWN just won't handle all those NPC's the game would become a lag fest (this is my understanding anyway)

[Niles09]

I repeat again, the holiday is over, ok. That means that I cant play five hours in a row and either can everyone else who tries to get a just a bit good education. And about that Ive only played two months, what does it change, one thing I know is most of the people playing here has only played for two months, and if that makes us less valuable, then Im playing the wrong game.

[Leanthar]

Thanks for the feedback and opinions.
  Please make sure this thread remains friendly and productive otherwise it will be locked.

[Acacea]

No need to get snippy   I don't think anyone is implying that it makes you (us!) less valuable. Acacea thinks she's the most valuable person around, and she's as humble as can be...oh, eh? Never mind.

You mentioned badly needing more (scripted, I assume) quests...While having complex, important scripted quests may sound neat, I'm really not fond of them. Killing monsters that can be explained by their constant reorganizing, or other... you know, I had a whole thing typed out, but this is basically my view on scripted quests:

"I just saved the world from a mad scientist who created a machine that was going to blow up the planet...! Luckily, I have slain him and he shall never again bother the world! Your turn, good XP."

[Niles09]

Right heh heh  But I didnt mean such big scale quests, fx the quest in nwn chapter 3 where a savage guy is going to courth (is that spelled right?) because he killed someone. If that was in Layonara I think, "oh so you saved him like me, looks like he always get into trouble" would be as good as "ah, so you found the bards necklace too, funny she keeps losing it, in that cave."

[Acacea]

Which is exactly why I don't like those types of quests!  

Acacea likes to spread tawdry tales about Ragrian rendezvousing with her gelatinous lover, though. So...it's a trade-off.

[Niles09]

ok, but if you only got an hour, you cant join a DM quest, and slaughting monsters isnt just me.

[Acacea]

I know, and it takes awhile just to get everyone together, and the times aren't the times you're on, and seeing the same people signed up for every one of them is slightly intimidating, and... all that.

I'm just pointing out the disadvantages to having a lot of them, especially more "complex" ones. I think the current ones could do with some reworking, but really it's just kind of "Eh." Puzzles aren't so puzzling when just about everyone on the server has done it. Conversations...well, the NPC's don't react to your character and that makes it boring...and honestly, the character responses kind of bother me. Because I'm strange. You know. "I will slay this monster for you, because you are in need!" No.

On the other hand, a lot of people don't really chat up the quest NPC's anyway, so having a "fill in the blank" response would just mean the characters don't say anything at all.  

Wait. That's not what we were talking about. Hey. It's 9:42 am. I haven't...slept or anything. Slack.

Well...forum RP and use up your CDQ slots every month?

[Niles09]

forum RP and CDQ slots?

  night night by the way!

[Acacea]

Err. Sorry. Just...get CDQ's, I meant. You know. The number of sessions you can have.

Keep a character development thread, so that when you want to have one, the DM will know what the basis for it is and can get a sort of idea of what sort of thing you're looking for. Also, if you say she is 'somewhere' at 'some time', make it open so people passing through could have seen and responded, maybe. Ehh...you know. Just things to kind of keep your character "developing" even when she isn't "levelling," and make it easier on the GM that you bribe- er ask to run your CDQ.

Unless you play a halfling who could probably fill up several books with all her crap. In which case you should probably point out specific sections.

(If you were saying night because YOU are going to bed, good night- if you thought I was, eh. I have things to do today. Amazing.)

-Also, you mentioned "What about the few epic lvl chars?" or something. There is this (good job, forget to close the tag...), but no one really seems to be interested in it or an in-game one. What are all the lazy bards doing, anyway?

[miltonyorkcastle]

On the subject of quests, I make it a point nearly everytime I get on to quest.  That is, I rally up some troops and go march into whatever trouble I decide to make for myself.  Granted, Cole is the sort of character to go looking for trouble, and there are plenty of characters that aren't, but the quests don't always involve monster slaughter, either.  What I am getting at is, make your own quests.  Some of the absolute best quests I have ever been involved with did not include a DM.  The key is to con some others into joining you *wink wink.*  Sometimes we forget that exploring the High Forest with just four newly found comrades qualifies as a quest.

[Acacea]

miltonyorkcastle - 8/19/2005  10:00 AM
 Sometimes we forget that exploring the High Forest with just four newly found comrades qualifies as a quest.

Very much so. Acacea tries to make most everything into an adventure. If a reason isn't given for something, she'll annoy everyone around her with theories about it. Or she'll...she'll try to stop people from getting killed by her friends by giving the victims a made up reason to do a scripted quest. *Glances around...*  

(Bah! Last reply, I swear.)

[Niles09]

aye, the CDQ's are great I been at one two times, the problem is I've dont have mush time, eccept for the weekend, but since they usually is the only time I have to bigger things, I also play pen & paper there, and that means that I've dont have much time for a 6 hour event. But I've look into it.

[EdTheKet]

Niles09 - 8/19/2005 7:14 PM I've dont have much time for a 6 hour event. But I've look into it.

  Most times, they're not 6 hours. Even if it should take six hours, they can always be done in two parts of 3 hours or something, just let the DM know in advance. Also, not every DM has 6 hrs available either, we also have to go get food in the supermarket, wash the car, meet with friends, clean the house and all that 

[Filatus]

Well, if you really want to enjoy the quests you'll have to make some sacrifices to be able to make it those four or five hours that often, but not always, are required.

List of optional sacrifices: (Random order of course
- Real life
- Sleep
- Diner
- Friends
- Exercise (whatever sport you do)
- Oh yeah, and work

It's basically all about balancing these things.

On another note, I think these scripted quests are nothing compared to a GM-led quest. I must admit that I really haven't got a clear view on how many there are. Daeron still has a quest called 'the release of the shadows' from an old man from Leilon and the account of the broken forest' from Triba's parents.

There are however a lot of places in Layonara that are worth checking out. Not everything has to be an official quest in the journal. A couple of weeks ago a party was organized to investigate the Nameless dungeon. The people in the party had all sorts of reasons to venture in. A few here:

- Taislin (thought he discovered a new dungeon and that he was gonna get famous)
- Daeron, Vindel (interested in what materials of knowledge might be found)
- Mei (trying to further enhance her skill at the katana by engaging foes she had not encountered before)
- Glokk (we just asked him nicely

PS: Starting to wonder whether this post still makes sence. Ah, who cares *clicks submit*

[Ar7]

I'd like to comment on a part that nobody spoke about.

You mentioned that there should be more stories about epic characters, what they have done etc. But there are some problems with it. If such information would be written on the forums, it would ruin the world. People would simply read what happened and would not seek the information from other characters.  

Most of the things my character does should remain a secret, even though I would sometimes like to say "I was involved in it" It the same way with many characters and that is what makes it fun. It is simply interesting to try and find out information that is supposed to be secret. I mean seriously....nobody knows for sure who Ozy is and that is great. It wouldn't be the same if Ozy's history was written in the forums.