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Author Topic: Luring?  (Read 777 times)

Pen N Popper

Luring?
« on: April 03, 2012, 08:16:40 am »
Alright, I really need some guidance here. For as long as I've been on the server it's been common when handling encounters to not take on the entire group at once. However, in getting booted out of Misted Village I was told this is not allowed since the spawns were created to be balanced as a whole.

Is it really a requirement that all groups must be taken on en masse?

I'm a bit paranoid now that at any moment a GM is going to come on and kick me for trying to tackle more challenging areas alone.
 

Pibemanden

Re: Luring?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2012, 09:04:34 am »
There should be an answer to many of your questions in the following thread.

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/283267-luring.html
 

s0ulz

Re: Luring?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2012, 09:09:32 am »
Yeah, this discussion never ends in consensus, so I guess common sense is the best answer.

Everybody has lured in their time, so it shouldn't be something that you get instantly crucified for, but I'd say as a general principle that as long as you don't abuse the perceptive range of individual targets within a group that hasn't diluted due to AI, you're fine.
 

Dorganath

Re: Luring?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2012, 09:12:49 am »
First, please refer to the written rules on this very subject:  LORE: Player Rules

Next, please review the following threads for insight and hopefully some better understanding:

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/283267-luring.html

http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/112347-friendly-reminder-luring-dragging.html

http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/111133-question-luring-monster.html

This topic has been covered by myself and others pretty well in the past, so I'll let my various comments in those threads stand as they are for now, unless further (re-)clarification is needed.

Specifically for your case, it's important to realize that it was not just luring that prompted a GM to speak with you. I'll keep the rest unwritten unless you want to bring it all out in public.  However, to hopefully clear up one important point, the problem is not that you were taking on encounters by yourself.  There's no server rules against soloing. It's the methods you were employing that were at issue.

To answer the direct question, it is not a "requirement" that all groups must be taken on en masse.  It is, however, a rule that players not exploit mechanics and AI in such a way that makes creatures (and groups of creatures) respond, or not respond, in ways that are inconsistent with normal behavior and mechanics.

As the linked threads above will illustrate, there's a big difference (and a fine line) between good tactics and exploiting creature perception and AI. All it takes on the part of the players is a little good judgment and common sense.
 

Pen N Popper

Re: Luring?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 09:29:05 am »
Makes sense. I guess when in doubt, don't go there.
 

Dorganath

Re: Luring?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 09:34:52 am »
Quote from: Pen N Popper
Makes sense. I guess when in doubt, don't go there.

If by "there" you mean the Misted Village, then no...that's not what we're saying.

If you're referring to an exploitive tactic, then yes.
 

Pen N Popper

Re: Luring?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 09:52:06 am »
I meant more that if in doubt about the tactics, don't go to that area since it's likely too hard.

Misted is very difficult, which is a lot of the reason it is fun, but without questionable tactics of separating out a few at a time not a place to go for me.

I'll try to find other places to die where the risk vs. reward are in the same fun range.
 

davidhoff

Re: Luring?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2012, 11:36:45 am »
The luring issue is not black and white, and can be a tough call sometimes.  I think Congo's (he built lots of areas in layo) reponse gives some nice guidance:

Quote
Quote:
KageKeeper - 12/9/2006 11:08 PM
Quote:
My rule of thumb is if I HAVE to lure the baddies out one at a time to survive an encounter, it is probably over my head and I need to get help or find another place to be.  

That, I think, is an excellent rule of thumb to have.  

It's an admirable rule of thumb, but I don't know if it's realistic. In fact I'll say it's wildly unrealistic and will put that person at a significant and unfounded disadvantage. There is not one person on this server that I've seen not lure. Not one. If it takes greater then a group of level 6+ 20-37's to take on the *full* encounter of a +3 (mithril or emeralds) item spawn... then it's time to reconsider balance vs. tactics. Until then I'll stay alive going for what a caster can get at level 15, and follow suit in basic luring. I don't feel bad luring groups of 2's and 3's of drowrogues off diamond spawns. They can still ruin my day and the risk is wild for something that yields a raise dead scroll or two. I certainly don't feel bad in partaking in the lure of 2's and 3's off emerald spawns. No one traps creatures in immovable spots, no one uses abusive tactics to create unrealistic impossibilities. But so far I've not seen one person who assumes the travel of voice pertains to the natural balance of the world. You simply can't formulate generalizations on realism versus mechanics. I'm sure that in an ideal world the realisms would pertain, that the bell toll would resound throughout the drow city and 1000's would come running. But the reality of the system is clear here, and it shows a distinct sense of retrobalance towards logical playstyles. That is, pulling a fragment of the 8 creatures spawned, and dealing with them in a fair manner that doesn't abuse walkmesh. The staff seems to effectively balance to a level consistent with what AI can do. This explains the fact that it takes so many player resources to get to the bottom of the underdark, or likewise the bottom of the rift. These are +3 and +2 CNR areas respectively. By caster magic level that is level 15 and 10 respectively. It is clearly balanced so that you need to be intelligent in dealing with the enemies there. And by 'clearly', I mean that if it takes a 32,24,24,21,22 and 23... (well balanced in all class facets)... to get a +3 CNR in a manner that involves luring groups of 2's and 3's, then it's clear that was the intention. My rule of thumb is that you should never: - Trap enemies in natural features so that they can not move - Trap/ confuse enemies via varying cliff levels - Corner trap enemies using AI lock-ins that won't wrap around a corner - Trap enemies on AI lock-in's (around corners or level breaks) using AoE spells to slowly kill But by all means: - Lure 2's and 3's under the usual stress of major risk of that massively powerful spawn - Use bottlenecks to manage the masses of enemies in a favorable sense to your group, as long as they aren't 'dumbed' by the bottleneck you're using (i.e. there's another avenue of getting to you that they could take, but is out of range of what their AI picks up) - Use bottlenecks to plant AoE spells in favor of your effort, as long as they aren't 'dumbed' by the bottleneck you're using - Plant spells like SoV, Blade Barrier, fogs, fire walls, etc... in the path of their anticipated attack if that helps your cause. The general rule of thumb where you shouldn't have a bad conscience after using a 'tactic' is pretty fair. But everyone's learning curve and/ or progression on the scale of normal NWN AI is different. So it's hard to measure things on conscience. Please correct me if I'm not keeping to the intent of the server. That said, if I'm not, then it's time to re-evaluate the retrobalancing due to normal player tactics, and the baseline responses towards access vs. balancing as a whole. Because it's fairly clear, especially with +2 and +3 CNR's, that the intended behavior planned upon involves luring, and that any individual that assumes full realities of carrying sound/ group bahavior will be hit with overly punitive balancing.
There's only so much you can do with the NWN engine and available AI systems. I say just don't abuse walkmesh.


The general rule of thumb that says "if it doesn't feel right don't do it" is a good one, but provides no specific guidance.  This, I know, is because there are so many variables.

One of the funnest things about Layo for me is to try to conquer or fight in an area that is challenging to my character's level.  If you want to try to go down to the Rift and get diamonds with your 12th level fighter, now that would be risky, but heck what a rush and how much fun!  Imagine the feeling of accomplishment if you did it.

I don't think any character should feel forbidden to go to an area because they are too low level.  If you think you have what it takes...go for it.  Thats the fun part of exploring and challenging your character.

The key is not to exploit the AI.  In the spirit of what Congo said above, don't trap AI on cliffs or ground obstructions, don't range them with a bow when they have no way to get to you, dont "play tag" with you an another character shooting a bow at the same enemy as he bounces back and forth between you two, etc.  If you pull one or two enemy off a spawn and that is still a tough fight for your character, then that seems reasonable.  You are still risking the potential that more may see you and come running.  If you're blood is rushing and you're really scared your character may not survive, and you're pullling one or two off a spawn, then you're probably legally luring.

I've seen someone plant a unit flag of might on a bridge area in the great forest and then bring great forest giants back to the flag.  Maybe one, two or three would follow back to the flag.  If this is say a 20th level fighter, would this be illegal luring?  I don't know the answer.  Maybe some guidance on this specific example.

It's too bad Popper that you don't feel like going to Misted anymore.  That's a great place to challenge your level character and I'm sure it was really dangerous for you.  I am curious exactly what you were doing wrong; if you don't mind providing details.  It would help for others to know not to make the same mistakes.
 

Chazzler

Re: Luring?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2012, 11:48:32 am »
Personally I think the Misted should be allowed for you still (?), but not to solo the place if the challenge is too great (as it seems to be).
The Misted Village I think is geared for a group of 3-5 PC's at a time, remember how well we did with Dot Stoven? And it was fun!
 

Pen N Popper

Re: Luring?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2012, 12:08:19 pm »
I don't mind providing the details on my trips into Misted.

As I mentioned in my "Half-giant at the Crossroads" post, I prefer to the ratio of RP to combat be much, much greater on the RP side. Misted is a place where XP for my PC comes quickly, thus freeing up hours of playtime for RP. (As an example, the trip that I was booted out of Misted on would have leveled my PC. Without Misted I just leveled today, three days later, after way, way too many hours of wandering the world alone.) This is, of course, my own rationalization and everyone clearly has their own description of fun, etc. Misted Village is super fun to me.

So! Last Thursday and Friday I had some steady stretches of time so I parked Dubbel at the Crossroads. Whenever anyone came onto the server I'd see if they wanted to group up for the village. If no one came online for a while I'd try to solo. Over the couple days my confidence grew from barely surviving the first spawn to finally making it all the way to the bottom! Quite impressed with myself. (Dubbel is hindered in success as a fighter by his player.)

There's violation number one: Repeating the same area over and over. To be honest I don't think I spent too little time between runs. In addition, I never "back fought" on the way out to get more XP (the tactic of respawning the groups on the way out). Between Village runs I would sometimes wander after the madmen, scorpions, or giants but that was more grinding than fun so I preferred to just loiter at the Crossroads.

Now, both solo and in groups, there are certain well-trusted tactics. Like any game you begin to figure out "the moves" that work. 1) Get within sight of the spawn of and catch the attention of, ideally, two, then move back out of range of the others and fight! 2) If a dart thrower targets you, move out of the way so they have to come chase you, then pound them into the ground. 3) Beware the halfling death! Rinse, repeat. These tactics apply solo or in groups that can't handle the entire spawn. In a group the tactics are adjusted somewhat to keep everyone safe: A pair of fighters backed by a rogue is fantastic and can stay on the bloody edge of near-death. I assume these are the no-no tactics that I was doing.

Now in the past it was not Misted Village that I'd visit most, but the giants in the Forest of Fog. I can't tell you how many times I turned down group invitations to visit that sorry place. Being a half-giant gives him some RP reason to do it over and over again, I suppose. Really, though, who isn't sick of slaying giants? No risk, little adventure, lousy xp (for ECL 3). Bleh!

So there's my rationalization: Great fun location, fantastic XP for myself and any others, perfect fit for pure fighter. I certainly did it too many times over that past week but always preferred partners and the chance to play the game together.

All rationalization aside, I certainly can see the team's rationale for imposing the three day ban to the area. In reality it's a ban that extends indefinitely to that area when alone and many other areas too if I can't draw part of a spawn out. I'm just not that good a player and not that patient to do it on 50xp spawns for that long. No blame, just the facts.

Fight on!
 

Dremora

Re: Luring?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 02:52:08 pm »
I've heard it before that layo was designed to be an area where grinding was mostly meant to be done in groups to encourage RP. Problem is if a person RPs a character properly that doesnt hang out with everyone no matter who they are, and you then take into account the number of people on layo at any given time thats not a quest (sometimes even during a quest: 4 people). Obviously this means you can't grind anything worthwhile by yourself unless your character is built in certain ways. Now its been brought up before that things like luring etc should be forgiven when nobody else is online or really few people or say a Toranite and a Corathite whatever, because the game should be 'fun' before it should be 'realistic'. That then also could get slippery and lead to a degradation of RP or whatever, its another argument and I digress. The suggested alternatives are 'crafting' or go RP, or log off (which doesn't help the server one bit in gaining more notice when someone checks out the server list in gamespy).

Im afraid my characters have a similar problem (to different degrees) that I am incapable of grinding worthwhile areas alone. Noteably Hector (which ill be able to fix next level maybe) and my new wild elf archer (which I dont see being fixed until much later if at all). Nym is designed to perform multiple rolls in combat from tanking, dps, to even limited ranged support if I bothered to get him some nice darts. He would've provided some warding as well but layo's UMD skill works different to what im used to and so scrolls are out, but not magic items. He's also a pretty decent AC build which means, Misted bandits don't hit without 20s regardless of the type.
Point is, this soloing issue will hit a character eventually im pretty sure, regardless of their build except maybe: really high level mages who could visit an area and just spam deaths spells, rinse repeat later.
 

Dorganath

Re: Luring?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2012, 12:18:09 am »
So that we're all on the same page.

There won't be a comprehensive list with specific guidance for what is and isn't luring, for reasons stated.

There is an expectation for people to use their best judgment in all things related to this server, not just matters of things like luring, camping, etc.

There is no rule against going out to gain XP. There is no rule against "grinding". There is no rule against soloing. We're not going to stop anyone from doing these things, unless there are rules being broken.

Other than what is mechanically prevented, there are no meaningful prohibitions on where anyone can go in this game world, regardless of level. Some few individuals may have RP reasons why they cannot or should not enter an area, but these are IC, and not any form of OOC punishment. Unless significant abuses occur, we most likely won't be permanently excluding anyone from game areas for OOC reasons.

Neither Dubbel nor Pen N Popper have been permanently banned from anything. Outside of a temporary request to stay out of the Misted Village for three days, nothing was asked of Dubbel nor Pen N Popper that is not already asked and expected of every other player.

Since three days have elapsed, there is no further prohibition on Dubbel going to the Misted Village. He can go solo or in a group as he likes.  Regardless of how he goes, Pen N Popper needs to keep in mind the things told to him by the GM who pulled him aside and the perspectives expressed in this and other threads on the topic.  It's very simple.  This was even less than a slap on the wrist.  Go out. Have fun.  We're not out to get you. Really.

I hope this clarifies things all around...at least somewhat.

----------

For what it's worth, I have a 34th level Sorcerer (multiclassed), a 8th level cleric and a 6th level Druid. None of them can effectively solo areas appropriate to their CR, partly due to build and partly due to RP reasons.  While I hear, understand and sympathize with those who would support luring for these very reasons, I remain unswayed by the arguments put forth to that end. I know first-hand how difficult it is.  I have never had the luxury of maximizing my XP gain through combat when not in a group...and I'm perfectly fine with that.