multi classing question

[jan]

From the moment i started playing here , one thing always made me wonder .

I see many people multi classing their chars , but when i try to understand what is happening in these cases i come to the conclusion that it is a weird thing .

I'm not saying that multitasking ( as i figure it is ) is uncommon / unheard off , but the multi classing only seems to have blessings and not the expected drawbacks .

To explain a bit how I think about it i'll give an example .

A weapon master multi classing to something else to me seems weird for the following reason : weapon masters spend their life to completely master their weapon off choice . The way i see it , they need their training to keep at the level they are or even get better . Training in other things in my mind would mean that they degrade over time and lose the fluent moves they once must have had .
Training in stealth , magic or other things takes full focus , so would interfere with their already trained skills .

This goes for other classes too ( wizard is one off those that comes to mind ) and in my mind the only classes that should be able to freely multiclass are those to whom their abilities come natural  , thinking off sorcerers and bards and clerics here .

Upgrading from one class to another of course is logical , so not talking about bards that upgrade to skald , or fighters that upgrade to weapon master or similar class changes but purely about a class that gets changed to a completely other class .

An athlete that diminishes his training effort can not defend his/her place as best in his/her sport .

So why should / would a character stay at the strength off his / her last gained level if they start to focus on other skills ?

I'm not sure if it is possible , but i would suspect that they get some kind off penalty in their original class , for diminishing their training efforts and the fact they focus on other things .

Wondering how others see / think about this .

// using weapon master in the example because i play one and its my personal take on what would happen if i would start multi classing him .

[Chazzler]

I'm not sure if it is possible , but i would suspect that they get some kind off penalty in their original class , for diminishing their training efforts and the fact they focus on other things .

Each multiclassing character indeed gets a penalty, of ECL +1 per new class (max 2). This means they own less or just 1 experience from easier monsters, and of course, they are not as rough or potent as a character of their level that has only one class, meaning a wizard/druid/cleric could probably solo some areas on Belinara, but I do know Chakar can't, cause he just does not sport the firepower

[jan]

Each multiclassing character indeed gets a penalty, of ECL +1 per new class (max 2). This means they own less or just 1 experience from easier monsters, and of course, they are not as rough or potent as a character of their level that has only one class, meaning a wizard/druid/cleric could probably solo some areas on Belinara, but I do know Chakar can't, cause he just does not sport the firepower

I know it gets harder to gain exp when multi classing , but skills already gained stay at the level you are .
So you stop training ( or diminish training ) to learn other things , but you keep every advantage you earned .

That is something like : you once could run the 100 meter in 10.21 seconds and even though you dropped your training rate to once a month , a year later you still run it in 10.21 second ?

Would be nice , but is impossible

Once your focus shifts , your former training rate wont keep you at the level you were .

[Chazzler]

Yeah well, it's a game, not RL

[jan]

Yeah well, it's a game, not RL

*grins* Yup , but wouldn't it be nice to have things like this represented ic ?

That could range from penalties on previous skills learned to bonuses for those that don't multi class and stay faithful to their original calling

( bonuses for prestige classes stop at a certain level , encouraging people to take up other things because there is more to win in another class and nothing to be lost in the class they choose first )

[mumbles]

What Chak means Jan is Chak has  5 or 6 fighter lvls for instance , and 14 wizard lvls meaning he personally can only cast up to lvl 7 spells , which for a lvl 20 mage is a real disadvantage i feel personally . He wont gain lvl 9 spells till low to mid Epic 24 if my maths is right . Where as my straigh wziard all ready has lvl 9 spells at lvl 19 ... Also Chaks Dc of spell will be reduced compared to a straight pure wizard and he also has less spell slots ....

So where you might think , you gaining in multi classing , any of the spell casting class are likly at a HUGE disadvantage from multi classing

[lonnarin]

Good question.  From my own perspective in playing kind of the opposite of a weaponmaster, the dwarven defender, I often toyed with the idea of picking up some weaponmaster levels for warhammer down the line.  In the end I decided against it, since the idea of dual specializing into both an uber defensive and offensive combo made no sense to me.  Wouldn't that just make him a fighter?  Besides, epic defender DR and HP are just too sweet, heheh.

Still though, that's just my perspective.  From another perspective we have to admit that the D&D approach to class skill progression is a bit convoluted.  No matter what kind of training somebody gets or what their focus is, they get a full package deal on abilities, some of which they might never even use or do not really fit the character.  Take monk for example, one of the classes that irks me the most.  Throughout martial arts history there is always the concept of how different schools of training lead to different styles and techniques.  From master to student these techiques are handed on, and students are encouraged to go out and learn new styles to incorporate into their own.  A Muay Thai kickboxer isn't going to fight like a judo blackbelt; one operates on mobility and reach, the other more on grappling.  Shaolin iron fist or iron head techniques/talents aren't going to typically be taught in a standard karate class.  However when you look at monks in NWN, they are as uniform as uniform can be.  EVERYBODY learns improved knockdown at 6th, or diamond soul at a certain level, or kai strike, has the same hp/lvl, the same saves.  A sumo monk has the exact same class progression as a classic martial artist, and others who operate more like unarmed specialist wrestlers who are technically grappling and twisting rather than spinning and kicking still does the same kind fo damage as their counterpart.  In the end, it almost seems as if all monks were taught in the same school, by the same instructor; at least as far as the stats roll out.

So much of class progression is tied up into semi-mandatory steps, it leaves little wiggle room for making the kind of specialist one has in mind.  Only skill selection (from an already uniform laundry list of skills) and feat selection and stats seem to differentiate the character of a class from any of his class peers.  This just flat out doesnt make sense in some cases.  Even when you see a high-dex elf fighter who will never see fit to don an 8/+1 platemail in their life, every single one of them WILL be proficient with the fullplate they cant even lift.  Many duelist builds that involve fighter levels confound me at this level; it seems totally insane that a fighter dedicating their life to specializing in fighting with no armor is proficient in heavy armor.   We can talk that up to "class-training" all we like, but in the end when you see people winding up with fighting styles they will never use, it sort of seems out of place.  Even look at a fighter->duelist->weaponmaster, which appears very much in theme; weapon specialization, precise strike, ki strike and WM critical all seem to go hand in hand with dedicating ones life to the rapier.  This character will also for some reason have proficiency in heavy armor and tower shields, which is the exact opposite of his training goals.  That kind of reflects your original question; when you're specializing all of your life to fight a certain way, why would you pick up drastically different skills?

The saving throw system also doesn't work too well with unique character concepts.  Dex fighters who wear leathers and have high fort saves with low reflex save progression, for example.  Or heavy set, low-dex rogues who specialize in social skills having a really high reflex save progression and low fort.  Weak, cowardly, goblin druids with high dex who have low dex saves but high fort and will saves, and no sneaking skills in their class skillset.  (ideally I would take half the qualities of a druid like shifting and less spells and half those of a rogue like hp, saves and sneak attack and merge them to make Grovel feel right).  Sure, the stats will lead to a higher dex boon to reflex, a con boon to fort, but this is less pronounced as you progress in level and the "class training" of your save progression outpaces your actual use of saves.  

Monks cant crossclass with anything easily, once they stop taking monk levels to learn something simple like sneak attack (makes sense coupled with stunning strike) they lose their focus and are unable to learn further monk skills.  This means that if Gloom picked up a spell scroll and learned how to use spellcraft through intense mental training, that no matter how much he in-game kept up with his monk training, he gets penalized.  I honestly don't see any RP or logical reason for this to happen, it's like mechanically enforcing ignorance of useful skills.  If you run around and beat up monsters for training, then what does it matter if you decide to start reading a spellbook as well?  You won't get "too out of shape" any more than Jet-Li would get if he read Atlas Shrugged.  Honestly, the REAL reason we dont let monks multiclass too much is the 5 levels of fighter AB leading to something like 8 attacks per round.  Solely a factor of NWN mechanics being goofy.  thanks to that one factor, we will never see a monk who specializes in kama.

So if you decide Barion wants to take rogue levels so that he's more deadly on a flank or knockdown, or ranger levels because he wants to learn to focus on killing a certain enemy and have a hunting dog, I say go for it.  Despite the whole Weaponmaster Creed of "dedicating your life" to the weapon, that's just a figure of speach.  Just because you learned ki strike, it doesn't mean that your bastard sword is going to be insulted if you stick it in an enemy's kidneys, or that you decide to cast a spell on it before battle.  You already put in your training to get those weaponmaster abilities in terms of time, effort and xp, so they aren't just going to vanish overnight.  Also, since I'm guessing that your training in the bastard sword was largely self-taught on the field of combat, I dont see any reason why you couldn't learn something else then come back to it later.

When somebody multiclasses, they do not leave their former classes behind.  They fuse the training of the old class with the new one, and focus on learning new techniques in the new.  They're not JUST learning to be a mage or a fighter, but both, which is why they have the choice between taking a level in one class or the other when they progress.  This is represented by the favored class/multiclass xp penalty.  If you want to take fighter->weaponmaster->a new class, I wouldn't fret too much about feeling that you aren't penalized enough.  You're already taking a percentile hit on all xp gains for your character as if you were higher CR critter.  Does that mean that you're learning any less when you fight?  of course not, technically you're learning more, and that XP hit is to indicate that since you still use some of your old skills from your old class, you need to put in a wee bit extra effort to study the new skills of the new class.

Of course that explaination seems silly as well, when one considers a fighter/mage.  It kind of assumes that having higher HP and an attack roll really matters as far as how much you understand magic.  A fighter/mage who casts all the spells he has per day learns magecraft slower than a mage who casts the same amount of spells per day, yet simply has to run from things instead of hitting them with a sword.  That leads one to believe that in understanding the weave, one must be a track runner rather than a headchopper.  But then wouldn't they have a higher fort save from all that running and panting? *shrugs* D&D makes no sense.

Thats why I'm glad the next version will be fully classless.

[Dorganath]

When somebody multiclasses, they do not leave their former classes behind.  They fuse the training of the old class with the new one, and focus on learning new techniques in the new.  They're not JUST learning to be a mage or a fighter, but both, which is why they have the choice between taking a level in one class or the other when they progress.

This is pretty much it.  Multi-classing doesn't mean you stop being one and start being another, though the old concept of "Dual-class" from AD&D, 1st Edition sort of suggested this (Humans could not multi-class, but they could "Dual-class", but that meant abandoning progress in the first class completely).

In my primary character's case, he's a Sorcerer/Fighter/Spellsword.  His fighter levels are sort of in the middle of his Sorcerer progression.  When taking fighter levels, he didn't stop using magic...he just stopped discovering new magic.  Likewise, he hasn't taken a fighter level since before he went Epic, but that doesn't mean he stopped taking up arms or even practicing in private to keep his skills sharp.  The progression from that to Spellsword seems a fairly obvious one, as it is a blending of the two classes in a lot of ways.

[Chongo]

 
 I'm not sure if it is possible , but i would suspect that they get some kind off penalty in their original class , for diminishing their training efforts and the fact they focus on other things .
 
 

 
 The penalty is in the discontinued growth in that class. It's always a trade-off in the direction of progression and what attributes you build in versus forego. As a fighter, you master a weapon to a point that you can strike a bit more effectively. If you pick up rogue skills, you're not using that blade any differently, and you sure as heck are still using it with the same frequency. As a ranger, you learn to wield two blades, but if you lapse in your training, you never master your enemies and achieve the bane ability unless you progress it to that height of awareness.
 
 And sure, from a balancing standpoint, it is very clear that the progression trade-offs versus benefits have great disparities between classes. In one class the culmination of your trade takes a slow grueling 21 levels. In the other, it takes 6. This is a bit of a downer mechanically, but hey, if things were perfect then we'd get bored and passive.
 
 I understand your track example, but it's a bit extreme/ not applicable. In that one you're talking about specific muscle development and the subsequent atrophy/ muscle tradeoff/ imbalance if you start pole vaulting instead of sprinting. But in what we're talking about, fighting, that doesn't hold much water.  Fighters are hitting, rogues are hitting, rangers are hitting, barbarians are hitting. All their doing when they focus on one or the other is picking up more tricks for their trade and choosing which ones to develop further.

[jan]

@ chongo

The difference between classes that use weapons as main means of doing damage ( fighters and the likes ) and classes that use knowledge ( wizards and the likes ) is possibly even bigger then the example off sprinter and pole vaulter .

When using weapons you train to become faster and stronger to help you get rid off your opponents as fast as you can .

When using knowledge you train your mind ( i'm sure i'm not explaining this right in these words , but i hope you see where i am going )

Any person can tell you that once you diminish your physical training and replace that with sitting and learning from books , you will lose speed , strength and agility over time .

Of course you try to keep up with your old training , but there are a set number off hours in a day , so you would need to train less in what you knew and use the time gained to study in the new things .

[Chongo]

Your example of the fighter/mage split is perhaps the best example of the progression tradeoffs/ penalties: AB progression, ability to bypass SR, etc.  You retain your abilities learned, but you give up learning any more from them.
 
 Again, the fighter who heads out is still hitting things regardless of mage levels.  Likewise, the mage who heads out is still using magic on himself and perhaps the enemy regardless of fighter levels.  On the progression side of things, there are vast penalties.  However, ability depreciation would only happen in a roleplayed sense - and sure, folks who multiclass from fighter to mage and start being a non-combatant, they should think about roleplaying that they've lost their 'edge' in toe to toe battle.  But if they're still out their hitting, I doubt you're going to see that depreciation.

[Gulnyr]

However, ability depreciation would only happen in a roleplayed sense - and sure, folks who multiclass from fighter to mage and start being a non-combatant, they should think about roleplaying that they've lost their 'edge' in toe to toe battle.

From a certain point of view, there is a mechanical component to this, too, though it's more of a perceived loss since nothing is actually taken away from the character.

Imagine three characters, one pure Fighter, one pure Wizard, and one Fighter/Wizard, all level 20.  The Fighter/Wizard has ten levels of each class.  Let's say they go out together and come across some monster that is designed for a group about their level.  The monster has a pretty good AC, but the pure Fighter's attack bonus is high enough that he can land solid blows fairly often and do good damage.  The Fighter/Wizard gives it a go with his sword, but his attack bonus is lower because of the Wizard levels so he can't hit as often or give as good as he gets.  So, he backs off to try some magic.  The monster also happens to have a bit of SR that the pure Wizard can easily overcome.  The Fighter/Wizard doesn't have as much luck penetrating the SR since he doesn't have the caster levels of the pure Wizard, so, again, he's not doing so well in the damage department.

In in-character terms, this means that the Fighter/Wizard practices fighting and practices casting spells, so he maintains what he already knows and doesn't lose any ability.  He hasn't focused exclusively on either to gain the "power" of his pure-class buddies, though.  So, in a weird sense, he has "lost his edge", though, more correctly, there are simply tougher opponents he hasn't trained for because of his split focus; he just hasn't gotten that far in either field of study yet.  He's basically a level 10 Fighter compared with a level 20 Fighter, or a level 10 Wizard compared with a level 20 Wizard.

And, of course, the quote does say "start being a non-combatant," but really, how often do people multiclass and decide never to use the abilities from their previous class ever again?  It's not impossible and there are surely good RP reasons to do it, but it's not really a common thing.  Most Fighter/Wizards are Fighters and Wizards, not Wizards who used to carry swords back in the day, y'know?  So, in most cases, there is no reason to RP losing anything; the character just hasn't trained up to the point of a pure-class character yet.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Also, take into account, it is much easier to maintain a skill than to develop new ones. As a sprinter, I can maintain the form with consistent but light (say, two hours a day vs. six hours a day of training) practice. I won't be getting any faster, but I won't really get much slower either (at least not until you factor in age, heh).

[gilshem ironstone]

I think that we should also take in to account that all of our PC's are extraordinary in some way, and are those people that "get a lot done in a day."  The same way Batman can run a multi-national corporation and fight crime at night, I think it is reasonable to assume that all PC's have a slightly greater ability to draw great benefit from limited times of study/practice due to a keen focus of mind, body and soul.  It is why they are heroes, even those of a less dramatic nature, and everyone else is a "normal person".  So we find ourselves with heroes who can cast magic, and are excellent swordsman making Frank the Blacksmith wonder why he has such a hard time just making ends meet.  What Gulnyr wrote still very much applies, but to the "common folk" all three of them are probably performing feats that astound and amaze, even the poor Fighter/Mage wh feels pressed back on her heels.