Author Topic: Operation Blood Fall - Disappointment (Read 304 times)

DMOE · « **on:** January 28, 2006, 10:18:18 am »

Having just tried to go on Operation Blood Falls I am a littledisappointed to be told I can’t because I am not 14th level or above.

NowI understand that quests often have level limits but this was posted as‘at least 10 and up’ so being 12th I thought I’d be ok.

I wentahead and organised a babysitter specially so I could attended thisquest as I don’t often get chances to go on such plot quests that fallwithin GMT and can be fitted around my kids.

Could I ask that infuture DM’s please post on the calendar the ACTUAL level limits theyintended to use on the day to prevent people such as myself going toexpense and effort to be told they can not attend after all.

Leanthar · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2006, 11:13:08 am »

I am sorry this happened. It is indeed posted as level 10 and up and you should have been allowed to participate by that posting. I see there are 33 people involved in that quest with 1 (currently 2 though) GM's running things. I think the GM was swamped and such--but I do not know because I am not there--no excuse but I think that is what happened--but that doesn't help with your expense that you had for your kids. It makes it even worse that you worked a baby sitter in so that you could go on the quest. I agree the actual limits must be posted (very important for the players).

feniox · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2006, 11:15:38 am »

Same here, I rearranged my schedule specifically to cater for the quest too, though in Milo's defense, I was under the impression that he cut the under 14th levellers as a way of reducing the massive lag that we were experiencing at a result of the huge number of people that turned up.

Still a shame though, I was looking forward to it

DMOE · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2006, 11:39:39 am »

Firstly to Leanther – Thanks for your response

Secondly to Feniox – I logged back in after the crash to the message that unless you were 14th or above you needed to return to West so had no idea why. I can understand the desire to cut party size due to lag but I was under the impression that is normally done by die rolls as it has been on every other over subscribed quest I have been on and also missed out on occasionally due to my dire luck with dice rolls

orth · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2006, 12:25:59 pm »

Did you mention this in game to milo, arranging for a babysitter? We're not hard set rulemakers, Milo did indeed have to cut it down as there were over 40 people so yes he took Levels, I think mostly from convenience, but if you had have mentioned that you had arranged just this I'm sure we could have let something slide and others who couldn't make the quest wouldn't mind so much.

Milo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2006, 12:47:33 pm »

Yes, please inform me next time when this happens. There were 40 to 50 people on at the same time, and the server already crashed once and took out all of our setups. I'm really sorry about this, but that was the only way I could reduce the lag quickly and get the quest moving.

egoober · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2006, 01:04:51 pm »

I am sure that many us who attended the start of this event had made special efforts to do so. "Plot" quests usually have a reasonably high level restriction, for obvious reasons, so when one arrives that lower level characters may attend it is likely to be heavily subscribed. To then exclude these characters purely on the basis of level is perhaps unfortunate, increasing the world's focus on high power characters with long established players.
Coming from a PNP background, where rule #1 is "thou shalt not argue with the DM", it would never have occured to me to argue the decision, even if I had been aware of it's basis ( I also rejoined after the crash to be told the level limit had been raised). Once the number of players became apparent when West crashed, perhaps then would have been a good time to cull: Maybe limiting to those who had actually sighed up for the event or, as DMOE suggested, by the "defacto standard" dice roll? Please note this is not intended to be a critisism of Milo - merely an attempt at constructive comment with an eye to the future. Maybe a there should be an "official" posted guideline for those poor DM's caught in what must be a difficult situation?

--
Accept that some days you're the pigeon, and some days you're the statue.

DMOE · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2006, 01:10:39 pm »

Orth

No to be fair I didn’t mention it to Milo.

I had no idea why he was cutting bellow 14th level characters at that point as the party size didn’t seem to be much larger than it was in Velensk so I didn’t realise at first it might be a numbers problem.

Also Feniox has already said he re-arranged his schedule to be there too. How many others? How much time would have been taken up sorting out people who had made special arrangements and allowing them to stay? I would think that those who actually signed up for the quest would get first chance to stay as those are probably the people that had made prior arrangements and planned ahead to be there.

Also how would those who didn’t know I had contacted Milo and made such arrangements (assuming I had) have felt when they left and I didn’t?

Milo

Should this happen again I will be sure to inform you. Thanks for letting me know it's ok to do that.

ZeroVega · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2006, 01:47:50 pm »

If it's a case of needing to cut players due to lag, and you have changed your plans to be able to make it, ask the GM to make an announcement. Most of the time, if you have a 40 character party, a good fourth of them would be willing to give up their spot and find something else to do. I know I've done it before.

Gunther · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2006, 02:12:06 pm »

In this one instance, i would have to agree with the culling by levels, not random die rolls. It makes perfect sense from an RP standpoint. Give a group of 40+ individuals, and the importance of the objective, would I (a 12th level barbarian) have been happy if I went and say, Plenarius, didnt? If we had consequently failed in the mission, would I have been happy that I got to go? What Mistone army in their right mind would want a 12th level over a 20+ level.

From a reality based standpoint, theres no way to actually determine how many people are going to show up to a quest. Over 20 signed up for a quest I was on yesterday. I think 9 actually showed up. The bare fact is that we were so many that we were crashing the server for the Roldem quest. I crashed out twice, which has never happened in the past 8-9 months of playing here. Is it unfortunate that you didnt get to play? Sure it is. Did people have to be cut to prevent more crashes? Yep. Would it have been a good idea to lose 8 or 9 high levels and replace them with median levels like us? Probably not. Especially not if the mission failed.

I'm sure we'll get our chance eventually. Like I said, I've been here for about eight months. 12th level and havent been on one world altering quest yet. I'm an ECL3, so I expect it'll be awhile before I get a chance to contribute too. I suppose I've developed a sense of patience as I watch everybody move on and advance in levels and quest difficulty.

I think the right thing was done here, from a practical and expedient viewpoint. The only suggestion I could have made, would have been to possibly arrange for a backup quest for those left behind (if such a thing would have been practical). Say, a Blood expeditionary force lands on Mistone and those left behind have to defeat them. Something along those lines. If there was a spare GM available that is.

Nyralotep · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2006, 03:23:25 pm »

I got cut from this quest as well, Nob was who I wanted on the quest. Having said that though, we crashed Central with no problem and I knew Milo was merely getting rid of some people to cut the lag down. I'm not sure a back up quest couldn't easily be run though since it took an additional GM to help out Milo. It happens, I myself can only really quest on Saturdays but if the server won't stay up we can't have any quest.

aragwen · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2006, 12:21:31 am »

Itis reallysad when players have to be cut from a quest, but if not done then it becomes impossible to run the quest efficiently.
When the quest started I am guessing there was at least 50 players there before it crashed. It would have been impossible to run it with all of them. I also agree that spots could have been allocated based on dice rolls, but that would have taken much time and a quicker way was to make the lvl cap higher. This decision was taken within a couple of minutes to insure that the quest could actually go ahead and was still the best solution in my opinion at the time. Just for everyone's information even the eventual party that landed up going was very big, if memory serves it was 35 players.
Another reason raising level caps, was the right decision isthat it becomes very difficult to spawn creatures to a party with a level range from 10-30. What is easy for thelvl 30 is impossible for the level 10.Therefore it is also notfun for a lvl 10 to go on a quest where he cantdamage the creatures and the only funtion the person has is to tag along or usetheoccasional healing potion on someone else. This particular quest was 90% bashing and 10% roleplay so the lvl 10 would not have much opportunity to add value by means of roleplay.
Having said all of that it is still unfortunate that some people did make plans to be able to come to the quest. But as mentioned above, next time please inform us then we can work around that. I am almost sure if we aware that people make specific plans to come to the quest we could have worked something out, like getting a side plot run for the lvl 10-15 people.
Once again sorry that you had to be cut, but I promise you that we will make it up with some more fun and enjoyment to come very soon. And this time we will make the level cap not minimum 14 but maximum 14 rather. *winks*

Ne'er · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2006, 04:42:27 am »

I can see how it would come down to a level cut off. That makes sense. But I do think something like this could have been avoided.

This was a big time quest, on a saturday when lots of people can play. Also, 10+ is huge range for the population of Layo. So naturally there are going to be a ton of people trying to get on the quest, that is evident from the sign up sheet. I just think that if a party limit was put onto the description and then a warning that if the party is uncontrollably large the level restricitions would be raised. That way the people on the lower end know that they have a worse chance of getting in, and then they can be better prepared for that.

It isn't too hard to put a party size cap in, and I am sure most players will understand the reason behind it. Sure, people will be upset if they get cut off, but at least this way there is actually a warning that, yeah, they might not get to go.

IceDragonDuvessa · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2006, 06:58:40 am »

Just as easily, since this was a plot related quest that initially allowed lower levels, could it have been said anyone OVER level x has to leave since these are the levels that get to go on more plot quests anyhow. There are a number of ways to handle something like this and no matter how it is done not everyone is going to be happy with the out come.

That being said however, I think that people that actually signed up for the quest should always take first priority since these are the people that are probably making preparation to be there and are courteous enough to follow this procedure to let the dm plan for thier presence.

Victor · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2006, 07:02:05 am »

I'm concerned about the way level caps keep increasing. I found myself cut from this quest along with two others whom I had previously discussed traveling to Roldem and searching for a friend's family. We were told by many that it was a fool's errand. When the chance finally came to help, we jumped at the opportunity, only to have it taken away from us. How are we less deserving than those who have a few more levels to their name?

I saw Operation Bloodfall as a chance for mid-range level characters to participate and contribute to the larger war effort. They do not often have this opportunity in the epic confrontations that are becoming a more common feature of quests.

In the future, I hope to see either more ways for lower level characters to participate, or a division of large important quests into two or more parties with separate objectives. This may take more planning on the part of GM's, but the alternative is to risk Layonara becoming a place where only high level characters make a difference.

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2006, 06:28:57 am »

heh. I wanted to go, but my video card fried. I had to rush 80 miles over to the next largest town to find one so I could show up and see the Shifter.

Wintersheart · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2006, 05:46:53 pm »

I can easily understand the frustration that DMOE, Egoober, Feniox and Victor felt after being turned away from the quest. For many players Operation Blood Fall (and to a lesser extend the previous episodes) was a first opportunity to take active part in the overall plot and it was the culmination of a long process that began with the arms collection. To be left behind unable to join must have been very frustrating and after making preparations, such as getting a babysitter or rearranging your RL schedule, double so.

As ICE points out level requirements and party restrictions can be enforced in many ways and in this case the actual quest parties were divided into three groups with separate objectives (in effect 3 mini quests) making other options available.

The use of the calendar has been slipping rapidly during the last half year. Many people sign on and never turn up and many players, like me recently I am ashamed to say, just turn up. This not only makes it very hard for GM’s to plan the quest, but it also makes it almost impossible to plan for players who need to choose between quests and rearrange real life schedules. If any lessons can be drawn from this episode it is that the use of the calendar must be reinforced and “signons” given priority.

However having said that, it is always and must remain so the responsibility of the GM in charge of the quest to manage party size which often means taking a snap decision. In this case it could with hindsight have been handled differently.

/Wintersheart

@Gunter: This might hold if you could see peoples level in reality, but the GM Team works hard to include all regardless of level as this is a major aim of Layonara.

@Nyralotep: Did you log on with a second character after your first had been cut due to party size?

Gunther · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2006, 10:27:05 pm »

I respectfully disagree for much the same reasons that aragwen stated. In retrospect perhaps the level cap should have been set higher to begin with and stated as such on the calendar, however its tough to say who will show up and what the median level is going to be.

Nonetheless, I have been on high level quests as a level 10-12 and it isnt much fun when you cant really contribute and you end up being more hindrance than help. Having fought Blood's soldiers, I can say it isnt something that your average 12th level or so really wants to do. To weaken the opposition the party would have had so that lower level people could take part and feel good about taking part, I dont think would have been in keeping with the challenges that should be faced in fighting Blood. I appreciate the fact that Layonara tries to allow for varying levels to participate, its part of what i like most about this world you guys made, but sometimes I dont think its practical.

It was a tough call to make at the time, but I think it was a correct one given the circumstances. Maybe there was a better solution, but under the circumstances I couldnt think of one. I'm not saying dont feel disappointed. Heck, I was a little disappointed too. But I take into consideration that the GM probably had to redo all the setups they had in place due to the crash, ensure that a second crash didnt happen and split the party up in the most expedient fashion available. Hence they probably couldnt do a backup quest either now that i think about it.

In any case, I agree with the use of the calendar. Perhaps it should be mandatory if you intend to go on a quest, so the GM can plan accordingly.

Victor · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2006, 07:05:41 am »

I concede that this may have been the best solution at the time, but it doesn't address the larger problem.

The Blood War is becoming a high level campaign in which only long term characters are able to contribute significantly. Where does that leave the more recently Dragon Called? In essense we were told, "Go back to Hlint, kids, while the grown-ups handle this."

That rankles. There ought to be concurrent campaigns running for lower level characters that tie into the main plot. The elite forces assemble for a strike, but there's never a call for basic troops to hold the line. Playing hero in unconnected stories is fine, but it doesn't fufill my need to answer the call to action.

My complaint may seem silly with all the quests being scheduled, but I consider a connection to the main plot important.

Dorganath · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2006, 07:20:15 am »

These are good points Victor. I don't think anyone intended to make you feel like you had to go sit at the kids table.
Not all plot-relevant quests require high-level or long-term characters. At the same time there's a lot of information and experience wrapped up in the plot, and many of the plot-related activities involve going places that are dangerous even for epic characters. There's just no way around that.
I can only make two suggestions: 1) talk to people who know about what has happened in the war against Blood, and by that I don't mean people who helped retake Roldem, but rather people who have been involved with the effort for a long time. I honestly don't know what Leanthar has planned for the plot, but my gut feeling is that the final victory won't be decided on the battlefield. There are far more important, and effective,ways to be involved with the plot than by swinging a sword.
2) Keep an eye out. The currentplot is coming to an end, and things will probably start happening fairly quickly over the next few months.Some of those will require high-levelcharacters, others will not.