People's Prices vs The Zero Pricing Guide

[miltonyorkcastle]

okay, taxes on bank accounts won't work.  For that matter, most taxes  will prove to be unfair, save for property taxes.  Why?  Because there are ways around everything.    Point and case:  The persons that have significant gold to tax also maintain heavy amounts of storage (houses) where they can put their gold, rather than using the bank, and in doing so, will never get taxed if we start taxing banks accounts.  The poor younguns and new players will get hosed by the taxes because they have no where else to store the gold.  The only reason property taxes would be remotely fair is this:  Those that really need large amounts of property are guilds and serious crafters.  These are also the ones that maintain the largest amounts of gold.  Those that buy the houses (property) know in advance the costs of doing so and would expect to cover the taxes.    Advantages of property taxes:  1) This could prove to even out the pocketbooks of the incredibly rich and the "average" adventurer 2) This could decrease the number of persons that maintain houses, thus cleaning up the server a bit. 3) There might be less market floods of goods as fewer people will be able to store large amounts of goods. 4) It might encourage more crafting by orders rather than mass crafting (because of less storage)  Disadvantages of Property taxes:  1) It might discourage RP in favor of making money to maintain the house. 2) It requires enforcement.   Of course, as has been mentioned previously, there is an infinite supply of money, so no matter what, the economy will inflate.  The trick, I think, to keep goods from flooding the market place is this: >> decrease storage

[Harloff]

I think the problem with the economy on layo is that people think of it as a market economy. We don't have and cannot have a market economy, since a large number of people can produce low level items like iron and oak weapons. These items would have no value at all in a pure market economy with so many traders as we have compared to the size of the market. In a market economy the result would be that many traders would go bankrupt. This way the prizes would be balanced.

But we have none of the mechanism that limits the number of traders. Furthermore, for many items there are no production cost, which means that you could sell items for 1 gp and still make a profit.

My point is that it is fine that people RP  that we have some kind of market economy, but we must all be aware of the fact that if we had a market economy most items would be absolutely worthless. Which means that none of us can be interested in having a market economy, of course one could make quick money on dumping prizes but the rest of us can follow the prizes down if we want to.

This problem cannot be fixed by limiting the storage, implementing taxes or restricting crafts. I think the system is fine, and the economy will be stable as long as people don't try to dump prizes. This is in my view the only problem we have with economy that is.

[Doc-Holiday]

Here's an idea...

   BE RESPONSIBLE PLAYERS!

 Good googaly almighty splatrat fizzle bum flatular circles in the SKY!!!

I CANNOT understand people who will do things like this... Crafting is fun and all.. but PLEASE think about what your doing when you make 100 items... I mean... I'm not lauging any more when L had to ask people to craft in bunches of less than 100.

We all run around.. camping, killing, rushing, making laps, and then expect the DM's to run around and fix all the trouble we cause ourselves. Each thinks.. this one time won't hurt.. or .. I'm really the only one who does it so it's not going to cause much trouble.. or... Hey, there's no rules against it.. or... Pssh! Your just jelous that my PC is stronger than yours.. or... Hey, it's just a game and doing this makes me happy so back off.

Stuff breaks cause WE break it... continualy.. complain about getting it fixed and continue breaking stuff till it IS fixed.. and then complain cause we can't break it any more. 100 gold should be a ALOT of money... 100 gold is more than most peasants see in a years time may be more... I run around with about 800 gold.. and a little more if I need to save for armor.. I buy food and Inn rooms constantly to keep my money down.. I by lots of usables to keep that savings low. I don't pick up EVERY bit of gold I see, I don't sell everything I can to the pawnshop. If I craft alot.. it's for MY use.. Learning to adventure continualy without TONS of crap in my backpack is TOUGH but it's nessesary to bring the Layo economy back to a healthy level.

The trouble here lies not in our governing body of DM's... but in our own selfish desires to intake as much gold and items as possible. Please... let's back off the freakish gold piles.. live day to day as adventurers should. Really established adventurers SHOULD have a larger gold deposit.. it's natural.. but come on... It's overboard.

Lets take some personal responsibility. don't do it just cause you can, or cause there's no rules over it. Please think about others.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Exactly, Doc.  Exactly.

[jrizz]

I love crafting, I make mostly arrows and bolts. You spend quite a bit of time gathering the items needed (wood, feathers, metal) and there are many steps in the process where you can fail (of course for the higher level crafters this is not an issue). With arrows and bolts you use them up faster then you make them the same goes for scrolls and potions (these are consumable items). Other items not so; swords, armor, rings amulets and such. Now the system already tries to handle this as in, it is harder to make non consumable items (I think). I think that it is true that there is an issue at hand. This can be handled by us the players. We just need to act in form with our classes and characters. Would a ranger or a paladin really amass huge sums of money would a rouge really spend countless hours perfecting gem crafting. These kinds of things can be said for most classes. So it is up to us to deal with the issues at hand. We dont need the DMs to step in and save us from ourselves. And you dont want that. If I was on that staff I would initiate a massive run of breakins and "clean house" of the huge stores of stuff we have stored away Then a quick change in the scripts to make all crafting much much harder and a depletion of CNR. That would solve the issues we keep complaining about. But then we would lose one of the fun parts of this world, the abiltiy to make your own stuff. We had better do this on our own that is what this thread should be about. How de WE fix this?

[PsychicToaster]

Melee weapons and armor are far easier to craft than anything involving paper which includes woodcarving because of sandpaper.  There are a lot more steps in bows and arrows, or scrolls, than there are in armor and weapons.  Because of that materials are more widely spread around the crafting towns and require more time to collect.  Even if the copper and iron are guarded it is not difficult to find a group willing to help because of the perks of gold and xp involved in just the collecting of resources.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Sell things for thier Lens of Pricing values. *He shrugs.* 'Swhat I do.  And, on the subject of spending money and living like adventurers should, I offer up my character as an example (however egotistical I may be, I actually built Pyyran to be the archetypal adventurer, so rawr). To provide something specific, Pyyran once sold a great big pile of gems and gem dusts, along with a few scrolls, and laid hands on something like three hundred platinum (3k gold, for those of you who've never played a PnP game where you had to keep track of the weight of your coin. @.@). In the space of three realtime hours, I was nearly broke, after the purchase of two boxes of skeleton's knuckles and a set of lesser gauntlets of ogre power, among other things. And they were fair prices; expensive, that is. Four hundred for a box of knuckles... May not seem like much, but if you convert all of those knuckles into Moderate potions, you end up losing money, as set next to the prices of the Temple of Ilsare. Light potions are a different story entirely, but still. It turned out to be something like twelve gp for each knuckle, with the fancy boxes thrown in for free. (Eleven point four, actually.) I'd give you the rest of the math, but my point is already across. The gauntlets... Well, self-explanitory. I'm going for reinforced clothing, next.  The point I'm trying to illustrate is that Pyyran doesn't hang onto money. He doesn't even really hang onto much of anything else, aside from those few treasures he particularly values. And gems. Always gems.

[jrizz]

OK I would go by the lens but it does not go over well with 98% of the players. Example: the lens prices 99 iron tipped oak arrows at a little over 8000, but when trying to make a deal for a new ring I was offer 2000gp for 500 arrows! I researched it a little and found the general price for the arrows to be 1500 to 2000 (still a far cry from 8000). Example two: Try the lens on say an uncut diamond, it will say about 800, but the first one I found I sold (no auction) for 8000, and that was not my price it was the person I said "hey you want to by a diamond" to. The lens needs to be fixed

[Leanthar]

"...The lens needs to be fixed..."
  The lens works... sadly though we are hitting a brick wall with nwn limitations (or a total bejesus amount of coding time and/or reviewing every item on every update). There is only so much the team can do.  We need help from the players--you guys/gals know what is right and wrong, deep down you do know. *shrugs* Sorry, but it is true.

[jrizz]

I agree with that statment. As we said earlier, the fix here is up to the players. A fix that we can do is to follow the lens pricing, no auctions, no inflated value, no discounting the value of items just stick to the lens. So we can sell at the lens price or trade. But we can only do this if everyone agrees. Coding a dynamic picing system for the lens would be easy, keeping the prices updated would be a nightmare.

[jrizz]

For example take the current auction going on for a pair of boots of striding +2. What does the lens say the price should be on that item? Right now the high bid is 69000gp. Of course I have done the same thing, I sold an emmy for 55k two rings and five lion bags, way too much and I felt ti was not right. Then I had a lesser Ioun stone up for sale adn was offered over 300k in gold and goods. I could not do it, so I thought with my characters mind this lead me to sell it for far less to a character that I thought could put it t best use. We have to think with our characters minds.

[Harloff]

PsychicToaster - 11/8/2005  1:48 AM

Melee weapons and armor are far easier to craft than anything involving paper which includes woodcarving because of sandpaper.  There are a lot more steps in bows and arrows, or scrolls, than there are in armor and weapons.  Because of that materials are more widely spread around the crafting towns and require more time to collect.  Even if the copper and iron are guarded it is not difficult to find a group willing to help because of the perks of gold and xp involved in just the collecting of resources.

This is not true, there is a reason why so many people are high level wood crafters and no one is above level 17 in smithing. The huge difference is that you need only two pieces of wood in order to make a bow but for a short sword you need 5 ignots of the chosen metal, which in the case of adimantium means at least 15 nuggets....