The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leanthar on June 20, 2006, 12:56:27 pm
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As has been mentioned in the GM area Harloff had a few valid issues, concerns, and points. I am going to open this thread for discussion. Do not use this thread to flame or attack and keep things constructive otherwise it will be locked. I will reiterate that it is perfectly find to give feedback, input, and constructive criticism but do not go over the line and make it personal attacks or flame. I want to make it crystal clear that he was banned because of his attacks, not on his input and feedback. That is what I stated in that thread and that is what I meant.
One thing he touched on was the PrC’s and us choosing what to fix and overlook (or not fix) out of the bugs and game content. I want to clarify something on that subject. As you all know this is a volunteer project, nobody gets a penny. Everybody is doing this in order to improve the world and make things a better place for the community as a whole. That said it takes a significant amount of time and effort to make updates in a module, let alone a PW with multiple servers and modules at 75+meg and 1000’s of scripts and over a dozen involved systems that must remain as balanced as can be. This is no easy task and that is an understatement. Let’s take the skald PrC update. To fix the issues there it will take about 20 hours of concentrated effort by about three people at one time, total of around 40-60 hours combined if it is done right. That is time for finding the problem, fixing the problem, getting the patch (hak/tlk) implemented and merged, scripts updated in all modules and it being tested to make sure it is working with all of the other systems that we have in place. Keep in mind we have a lot of scripts, custom content, and all of that. Now, being a volunteer project we need to get those three people to have the time for discussion, implementation, testing, merging, building, and release of the module. This is no easy task. This is concentrated effort for long periods of time. In a volunteer project it is somewhat “simple” to get a few hours at a time per week available, it is quite a different task to get 6-10 hours at a time available in a single given shot. And you need long term focused hours in order to tackle those larger problems like classes, spells, PrC’s. The smaller bugs or implementations that do not really concern haks, tlk’s, or major systems can be fixed or implement as people get time. It is the large projects that require large amounts of focused and concentrated hours that are hard to fix (or implement) in a volunteer project. That is why certain things do not happen in a “timely” manner. On top of all of that, if we are going to fix one PrC we need to look at fixing the other PrC’s or class issues. Now we go from 20 hours (or so to 35+ hours) and thusly we need longer periods of time and perhaps from more people. This only exaggerates the problem in volunteer projects. Like it or not that is a fact of life when it comes to projects like this. We tackle what we can tackle when we can do it and I really think to expect more than that is setting yourself up for disappoint and unrealistic expectations. Ask any number of the players that have left the world to start their own module or world only to come back within a few months to a year or so how difficult and time consuming it is. It is not like RL and it is not easy.
Let me give one more example on how things happen in a volunteer project. I had set time aside for Layonara today. I had set aside seven hours, five of them to work on NwN2 decisions and design as well as world updates due to GM run events from player actions and two for meetings. Well those seven hours are now shot because I am dealing with this today instead of what I had planned. So instead of using the time that I had sat aside weeks ago for what I wanted to do today (and what needed to be done) I ended up handling this sort of thing. Lord knows when I can set aside that kind of time frame to work on some of the other future stuff. And again, I can not work on it a little bit at a time as they are tough decisions, complicated systems and they can not be worked on a little bit at a time. But that is volunteer projects and that is Layonara. For players to expect us to do better than what we are is unrealistic and you will be disappointed. This is not me complaining, it is just explaining to you how things tend to work (or not work) on volunteer projects.
Now multiply that problem by two to four times and you will begin to see the problem of doing major system overhauls or implementations. Not everybody can work on the same thing at the same time either as that just does not work at all as any system designer or engineer out there can tell you.
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One thing that might alleviate issues with PrCs is to have players that apply for them cut&paste a "I understand the limitations" into their submissions. Kind of like the clerics have to do upon submission. This would do two things: 1) Players would acknowledge that they accept these limitations and are willingly going forward anyway, and 2) These limitations are clearly documented so there is no confusion.
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The only thing in Harloff's post that I'll be commenting on is his statement about the "secrecy" regarding some content. The example used was the Krashin stuff. Personally, I'd like to see more of that sort of thing - the things which can most strongly affect character biographies and development - released as it's made, and left open for comments and suggestions. Sure, perhaps the writers may not want them out 'til they're JUST RIGHT, but... While I understand the feeling (I'm just the same; why do you think I have so few dev posts?) I also feel that a good many of the players on Layo have material they didn't think to post, that would immediately spring to mind when other material is posted.
Put simply, I'd like to see more open posting of pre-final information on the world, when it can be done.
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I can see why Harloff may have been slightly upset about the Skald PrC. I'm assuming that he had a character that was, indeed a Skald, and I'd be dissapointed as well. Also, not everyone knows how the scripting of Layonara works or has the time to learn and then put it to use, so in his defense, maybe there wasn't anything he could have done personally to solve it. That aside, one must assume with the number of times the Skald PrC has been brought up over the past months for change, that it is indeed being worked on or at least put on the back burner as something to look into later. His criticism certainly could have been more tactful in that regard.
As for the farming system: Well, I'll be honest, I probably won't use it. It doesn't really appeal to me that much but I understand why it's being implimented. I had the same thoughts as Harloff did. "Why are they making the system when we'll "probably" be switching games in half a year?" It was good, however, to hear that the system will play a big role in the future and will be transferred to NWN 2, should we take that step. Had players such as Harloff and my self brought up those concearns earlier, perhaps this would have been avoided.
I also see where he's coming from with the Pan & Storm comment, though I believe it WAS out of line. Pankoki and Storm have played together since Storm first got here, which was probably two years ago I think. I have no doubt that they have not only become good friends but have helped each other develop as RPers; and since they joined the GM team at the same time, good GMs on Layonara. I admit though, with my semi-childish way of thinking, I too thought it looked fishy that Pan ran such a long ECDQ for Storm. I then got to thinking about it and BAM! It hit me.
Storm is a GM, Storm wanted to go Epic, that means that Storm would have to have an ECDQ (now WLDQ) run for him. It would HAVE to be run by a GM! So long as GMs remain players as well, it is the natural order of things that they will have ECDQs run for themselves, Storm's was just a little unique in that the majority of it involved just the two of them and it was a fairly quiet thing. Also, if you look back, Pan has run hundreds of hours of quests, as as Storm, and many times (to this day) they have supported each other by helping out on their respective quests. It makes sense then that because they know each other, each other's characters and each other's GMing styles so well that they would run ECDQs for each other. (It no longer looks fishy.)
If Orth is a bit of a "drama king" it is rightfully so. To say that he's not getting emotional at times would be a flat out lie; of course he is! But let's be honest here, if you put hundreds of hours into something only to have someone say, "It's not enough," or "I didn't want that," it'd upset you too right? It would me! If any two people on this server have the right to be "passionate" in defense of their work it is Orth and Leanthar. Also, if you notice, Orth may become passionate in defense of his work, but he never resorts to vulger name calling or insults on the person, only their comments and ideas does he correct.
Oh, he mentioned something about there being too many rules. Well, there is a lot of rules, but that is the fault of rotten players who decided to forgo common sense in favor of an easy way of doing things. The GMs simply reacted to players doing stupid things by creating rules so that there would be no doubt on whether it is right or wrong to do "X". Also, GMs are not exempt from the rules by any means. There are certain GMs who were on the team for a while, then left, and then got the "atomic-smack-down" handed to them after they broke rules. It's not an ultra exclusive club, and if I ever knowlingly break a rule I would be shocked not to get the same treatment as everyone else.
And last I'll address the topic of Secrets! (I love secrets don't you?). Too bad I don't know any about Layonara... perhaps that's because there are none. About the gods, can you name for me one character or GM for that matter that knows in full what's going on? I can tell you, as I was a GM, that it's not posted in big bold print on the GM Forum all the little secrets of the plot, the gods, organizations, different lands and NWN 2 transitions. As a matter of fact, L told GMs on a need-to-know basis, what the intricacies of the main plot were and I never was one of them because I never did ask to run a Plot Quest. I went into the Team with nothing but a couple years of playing experiance on Layo (the entirity of my RP experiance) and I left with an immense respect for GM Team.
Do you really want to know everything about everywhere? Do you really want to know what the gods are thinking every minute of every day? Do you really want to be informed on any pin drop that happens in the Main Plot? Would you like to know which characters have foot fungus, which ones are married and the full history of secluded islands whose history is a mystery to all but the most learned of scholars and historians. Cool then because you just described Leanthar's job and as he says above (and I ad-lib here) "It may be fun at times, and satisfying to run such a world as Layonara but it's a whole lotta work and the whiners and flamers really take what fun there is out of it."
Peace ya'll, I've got a project to work on.
ZV Out!
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"....the things which can most strongly affect character biographies and development - released as it's made, and left open for comments and suggestions. Sure, perhaps the writers may not want them out 'til they're JUST RIGHT, but... While I understand the feeling (I'm just the same; why do you think I have so few dev posts?)...."
One problem with this. Time and clarification. I used to have a lot of information on the forums (about 2 years ago). I had to remove them because things started conflicting with other things. I would make a post stating xyz and then later update that post with abc or clarifying something. Players would not print out the new post and would use the old outdated information for validation. It was a mess, just total chaos. Now Ed has it to where there is information that is accurate and that is the way it should be. We can not have multiple versions of information around for the same subject, it does nothing but cause chaos. But to update things it takes time and effort and I think I went in to ample detail about that. There is only so much information we can get out there so quickly. Just because something is written up does not mean it is in final form, updated to work with all other writings and history/lore and is ready to release.
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I understand the point, L. Thank you for the further clarification.
S'pose it's our job to put out our own ideas, anyhow.
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I have a few points to make here, but I happen to have a test tomorrow so I will only make one for now.
I agree whole heartedly with Harloff when he says there are too many rules, some make sence while others I find somewhat unessisary. If you want I can get into some detail later, but not today. I also agree with Zero though, that alot of the rules were placed because plainly put in many situations, players should know better.
Perhaps if the community shows a good level of maturity the rules could be cut down a bit. If the community shows that they will exploit the lack of rules despite the privaledge given, you need just place those you removed back. It may be a more time consuming then I make it sound here, but at the same time, its not like you have to make new rules, just place those you removed back. As qouted from the RP guide you had a link to earlier "The realization we made at the time was that role-playing is at it's best when it just happens, and at it's worst when it is forced."
My rant ends here, I have studying to do.
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He was totally out of line, as they all usually are when the do the good old explode-and-leave. I really don't understand people flipping out over a free game and taking personal attacks on the people building it. It's like they walk into Leanthar's house, track mud all over, bounce up and down on his sofa with their shoes on, then when they are not rewarded for it, they throw silverware in the microwave and try to rip the door off the hinges as they leave. Seriously, if you get upset with a game server, go to another... there are thousands. Go to EB and buy a new game... go outside... meet women, do something else other than yell at the guy who pays 300/month just so you can waste bandwidth trying to degrade it.
As for his claim that the server staff takes too slow updating things... pick up a coding book or source manual and pitch in. This is about the opposite of a for-profit organization, this place takes time, money and stress to maintain. If there's not enough time being spent updating a feature, distracting the staff and demoralizing them with LUDICROUS accusations probably won't get it done any faster. I've seen entire entries added to the handbook because a new player wanted to play a certain clan or from a certain area unmapped, NPCs from quests run years ago immortalized in towns and shops (Toby & Sinthar's Bane) and almost 40 CNR recipes that I've suggested implimented within a month. (ogre leather, Garb of the made man, Boots of Arachnea, the dazing giant club, the new varieties of meats etc) This place has the fastest and hardest working staff I've ever seen. I've known well MANY people who've done the Rant&Leave (Idiotnoob, Murat, Bruenor, Highwayman etc) and within a WEEK of leaving, they already send me an IM telling me how much they miss the place. Well then, don't burn the bloody bridges!
I remember when I got sick of playing Lands of Acheron and was growing annoyed with staff favoritism and apathy. I resolved that problem not by exploding, flaming, griefing, going on one last murder rampage (Aliester, Elmo and Nathan wound up killing half the server's populace before forcibly banned) but by simply logging off and searching around for a new online methodrone. After several annoying and uninventive servers, I came here and was hooked. It's far better to just find another server and leave than to flip out and scream at people for their forum script color. When you do the dime-and-dash, the worst part is the months and MONTHS it takes searching out there to find something even remotely playable. When you can't stay here and there's nowhere to go, that's when the bar is closed.
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Nice, Lonn.
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Origionally i wasn't going to post in responce to this thread, but silence kills, so here's my two bits. I had a hard time wading thru Harlof's post thread for tangable substance. Some of his points may have had some substance but as L said they were discredited tremendously by his actions. As it is, I have to point to Ionnarin's post in agreement with everything he said.
I have beena table top GM for years, i have helped build two worlds PnP, and i have been a CO-Guild Leader on MMOs which is a scaled down version of GMing. I have to say it's a lot of fracking work and the co-guild leader thing, even tho my co was my husband, nearly destroyed our marriage because of blow ups like Harlofs, in addition to the day to day demands of supporting a populas in a way that basically dicates their daily doings. We had to sorrowfully toss in the towel and say goodbye to friends to save our RL lives because that, in the end is what matters.
Games such as this and the MMO market, are populated with Real People. No one pays the gms or L or the coders or the development team to do this, other then the satifaction of seeing the players having a blast. The fact of the matter is, they bust their butts and then get treated to complaints more often then thanks. Yes there are issues that can be addressed, points that can be clarified, but the best thing that can be done is the Player base needs to realise these people aren't our slaves. THey also have jobs and families and friends and car repairs and grocery shopping and and and and. Contributions of simply PMing ETK, Orth, or L about the issues pertaining to each's specialty goes much farther then anything else, and i can speak to this from personal experience in *many* *many* occations.
if i could put one thing up that has to be causing the emence frustration that many feel it's the delay time in implimentation or acknowedgement of issues pertaining to the world (PrC stuff for example). This has to be largely due to the beast itself, as it's not like L or Orth or ETK or any of the volinteer team wrote this stuff from scratch. Mechanics play a huge part, so they have to have *time* to look into all of this. I suggest that more people step up to the plate and help, in honesty, for the solution. I stink at technical stuff, but i am working my best at fleshing out some of the small details of Layo, like religious things not yet fleshed. That is my contribution, besides my rp, and montly donation. If we want to fix things the present team needs more help getting this stuff done in a timely maner. otherwise, patience, patience, patience. (the virtue and the action)
things mentioned like spacific GM criticizm or forum presences? there are how many hundred of us? no way can you expect to get along with every method used to run layo, nor are you going to see eye to eye with each volinteer team member. handle it in a mature maner, or if there is something truely baddness in nature, take it to L. He can't possibly be every where at once, and needs to know. *lack of respect* comes in to play here. We can do better. we want something done better or differenly, work it out.
EDIT: for clarity
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at firstHarloff statedhis arguement in a fair and just way,but personal attacks are out of order after that it becomes an attack, not criticism.
EDIT
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responding in PM so as not to derail the thread.
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Don't take this as a flame, and be sure to know that I do know that all DM's have their own lives and DM in their own time.
The way I see it is that most DM's aren't really dedicated to DMing. I see them IG alot but as players, I only ever see DM's on as DM's when there is a scheulded quest on. I think if you are going to chose to be DM, you should most of the time, whether or not there is a quest to happen. Things can get rather boring when all there is to do is listen to some stories, do runs of the Haven mines and craft. What made D&D so fun in the first place is the abilities that the DM had to make fun quests and such at every corner for the players. I know there isn't a DM for every player here in Layo, but it'd ceratinly be fun for some more random things to happen.
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"....The way I see it is that most DM's aren't really dedicated to DMing. I see them IG alot but as players, I only ever see DM's on as DM's when there is a scheulded quest on. I think if you are going to chose to be DM, you should most of the time, whether or not there is a quest to happen. Things can get rather boring when all there is to do is listen to some stories, do runs of the Haven mines and craft. What made D&D so fun in the first place is the abilities that the DM had to make fun quests and such at every corner for the players. I know there isn't a DM for every player here in Layo, but it'd ceratinly be fun for some more random things to happen...."
I understand that train of thought and I used to have it. That is until after the first year of running quests by myself for the most part (before I started bringing GM's on board). What happens quickly is that GM's lose touch with the player base and how the world plays and feels from a player viewpoint. On top of that they quickly burn out and burn out heavily. We only require 8-12 hours of quests per month from GM's. We do that for a number of very good reasons.
1) Keep burnout from happening, or at least slowing it down.
2) Have a direct tie in with players and the playing environment because they are playing.
3) Able to enjoy their time in a volunteer world where they are here to have fun as well. GM'ing is fun but it is is also very draining and tiring.
Those are just a few of the reasons but they are major reasons.
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A suggestion to reduce frustration in Layo specific prestige classes. Post the specifics of the abilities in Lore. This type of data is readily available to players for all NWN basic and prestige classes. Lore team has been quite proactive in keeping this data up to date for Layo specific changes. The DC really makes or breaks any spell or ability. Although it takes a long time to change the abilities of these classes, it should be relatively quick to research the abilities and document them. It is the sort of thing people frequently do in character creator modules using base NWN game.
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Hey hey, no need to bash Haven mines. Ive had some of the best time on Layo in those mines. *winks at L *
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I've only been playing this mod for a short time; in such a capacity, I felt that perhaps I didn't have the time invested to post a response when I originally read Harloff's post (the fact that it was REALLY late probably affected that decision, as well). The more I've thought about it, however, has compelled me to say just a few words, many of which have already been said in one way or another.
First off, although I would never be one to deny someone the right to voice their opinion, I was just a mite po'ed at his choice of delivery and his personal attacks. Although as yet I've had little exposure to the GM's in the game (but if I play my cards right, that'll probably change), the brief experiences I HAVE had have been pleasant, constructive, and accomplished the things I needed accomplished in short order...so I was angered just a touch by his scathing tone.
The most overwhelming thing I noticed reading his rhetoric was this: He seems to have nothing better to do than gripe about a game he plays...for free, no less.
I myself work a steady job, have three kids, and write minimally-published short fiction...time, as you can imagine, is precious to me. Yet I find the time to play on this mod, because I enjoy it. As a player of PnP games since 1983, it's a foregone conclusion that things aren't always going to be EXACTLY the way you want them...but what in life is? I feel sorry for Harloff that his life must be in such a state of upheaval that it spills over into his recreation to the point of becoming venomous.
Ah, but the point I was going to make when I began that last paragraph was that time, for many of us, is a limited commodity.
The people who bring us this game use much of theirs so that we may enjoy ourselves.
THAT was the single, most glaring thing that screamed at me from his post: Leanther, Orth, Pan, and all of the others freely give all of us their time, time that is almost always short, so that we can enjoy ourselves in this world. Who was he to attack that? I mean, if he had a beef, there were better ways to handle it...the bottom line is that we enjoy ourselves, and it is these people who work so that we can.
I'm ranting, but what I really wanted to say to L and all of the other people that make all of this possible is thank you; thank you from someone who honestly appreciates all that you do so that I can stay up too late, oversleep, and have a blast the next day at work telling everyone what happened.
I wouldn't change a thing.:)
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Ive been here for an average time now and enjoyed near enough every moment of it ....
I totally dont agree with how harloff went about his remarks as the GM team have done so much in the time that i have been here .
Ive been lucky whilst ive been here to be able to particpate in most of the GMs quest at one stage or anouther and the amount of time to put one together i image take a good few hours ....
And i thank you for running them for us all to enjoy .
On the point of feats not working and buggy Spells , I think this is just part of Layo as whole THE WORLD IN REAL LIFE IS'NT PERFECT and its just one of those things you put up with ....
On a whole I feel Layo's Good points for me outway the little niggles by miles ....
I Always look forward to getting online and playing ,
So thanks Leanthar and the rest of the GM team , For making Layo what it is
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ZV, from now on you're my unoffical spokes voice or some such thing! You said it better than I could have.
Having been here for a while I can honestly say that there is not much that I can think of that needs immediate improvement. I rememeber Beta 4 and all that was broke in it and I still had tremendous fun playing. When we went to the new version it was like a whole new game and I still enjoy it. I am still in awe of the advances the team has made since I first got here.
Also I know the GM's and other old timers here who read the forums know this is not the first time this has happened and unfortunately probably won't be the last. I just hope that people take L's advice to heart.
I'm perfectly content to wait on the team to make the changes in time, I know most of the team likes to play, I wouldn't want it any other way because that ensures that quality content will be implemented.
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lonnarin - 6/20/2006 3:14 PM
I've known well MANY people who've done the Rant&Leave (Idiotnoob, Murat, Bruenor, Highwayman etc) and within a WEEK of leaving, they already send me an IM telling me how much they miss the place. Well then, don't burn the bloody bridges!
Ahh... but how many come back in such full force, apology, lessons learned running another multi-mod server, and epic feat driven great wisdom XXVIII only comparable to the Dalai Lama?!!!
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18884&posts=8&mid=114571&highlight=&highlightmode=1&action=search#M114571
I am currently working the indentured servitude requisite of finding inner peace. ;) Actually, this is a wonderful crew to work with and a wonderful community to serve. I've never been happier in anything related to this game. I've seen most of what's out there and what the working community can do... and while I don't know it all, this is where to put your money. It's unfortunate that perspective comes with pains for those less willing to open their eyes. *points at his own posts since vanished to time*
Don't press submit unless it's something your wife or granddad wouldn't be ashamed to see you writing. :)
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Well time for a more in-depth comment on the post Harloff made as well as my own concerns. This should not be read as a “good old explode-and-leave” post, it is my thoughts on the subject and as such I have considered this carefully before posting. Please do not read this as an attack on anyone nor an attempt to discredit the work of anyone or any such things. I have a feeling I will be banned for this post, but I want to express my thoughts first, and should I be banned so be it.
First of all I will say that I have always respected Harloff both as a player and as a friend (yes I guess it is known to most that we know each other in RL) He has often made suggestions especially to how crafting could be improved and has a logic approach to things. Such outburst as this is for one who knows him a sign of a deep and thorough frustration. I recall when we began to play here, making the Sigurdson brothers, it was a great time. We would speak of how great things were, but alas as time passed and we saw how it in reality works frustrations came to us. Recently discussion of the world is mainly focused on issues that needs attention and I guess some know and to others it will come as a surprise, but the reason I left the team was not my limited RL time, but more that I could not agree with how things are and functions so as I wrote in my resignation letter “I cannot in good conscience be part of something I fundamentally disagree with” hence I returned to the state of player, but enough rambling about old times and why things have been done as they have.
In many aspects what the team and the players does here is incredible. I have often been immensely impressed by the work put forth. With that said I will proceed to my points of critique.
I agree with Harloff and although perhaps it could have been put in a nicer way, but it none the less holds truth. So let us try and look beyond that and instead take a look at the issues he raises.
Well classes I have already commented on earlier, and I do believe it should be made a vastly higher priority than for instance giving us flower to hand to each other. It is true as GhostWhoWalks stated that for instance skald update will affect very few people, and I could see this as a reason to down prioritize such update, but still I will say that I find classes to be of vital importance in this game. That a class isn’t working is perhaps also a reason why so few play it, who wants to play something that is basically useless. About adding “I understand the limitations of my class” to a submission is really not necessary I think as such lies implicit in applying for the class, however you will no where find the calculations on how DC’s are determined etc. for your feats, which should be fixed at least so people can stay clear of these non-working classes. But even if you know the limitations you should still be allowed to say “this is not working” and ask for it to be fixed, I see no reason why one should be content with something that is not functioning as intended.
Let’s be honest to ourselves and take a look at the summons. They are very different and some are better than others. I will simply ask this and you tell me why it is so. “Why are the majority of clerics worshippers of Lucinda and Vorax?”
I will pose a simple answer, their summons are better and their domains are better. Lucinda has some of the best domains and the golems are not to be trifled with. I will wager that 90% of the people here when planning a character think about how to get the best of it power-wise and I shall readily be the first to say that for me it goes as well, although I chose poorly when I chose the skald ;)
I believe the bear Harloff mentions is summonable at level 17 and has a CR of 25 or there about. Now don’t say that such summon is reasonable, with such summon you only need to buff it and stand back and watch it kill while you harvest the XP. Basically I believe with such you can solo Dregar easily.
I do believe there is much secrecy in Layonara. I will put up examples I have used before when addressing more or less the same issue.
- Gods: why aren’t people told of them, it is like having a cardinal at church having to call the pope to get an opinion on a matter or explain why something is a sin. Even high level clerics here do not know why things are as they are, and if I played a cleric I would find that immensely frustrating.
- Krashin: This is a very recent thing but none the less I will bring it up. We have had a history and in depth description of Krashin lying for perhaps 5 months, but people are not allowed to see it. Why not just throw it on LORE for all to see instead of waiting for a new handbook, we have a LORE-team after all.
ZeroVega put up this question: Do you really want to know everything about everywhere?
And my reply is a simple yes. When I was a GM I did not really know much more than I did as a player, and I think it is of vital importance that a GM would know almost everything that is going on behind the scenes, it is what being a GM is about and yes it removes the mystery of the world, but if you can’t handle losing that then one shouldn’t be a GM, or so I think at least. About the gods, perhaps not everyone should know, but it should be in the deity forums at least, every cleric should be entitled to know why their god does as he/she/it does. Furthermore I would like to take another statement by ZeroVega and comment on: Too bad I don't know any (secrets ed.) about Layonara... perhaps that's because there are none. About the gods, can you name for me one character or GM for that matter that knows in full what's going on? I can tell you, as I was a GM, that it's not posted in big bold print on the GM Forum all the little secrets of the plot, the gods, organizations, different lands and NWN 2 transitions.
Let me say this, there are plenty of secrecy in the GM structure and as you say it is not posted on the GM forum this information. Does that not already indicate some level of secrecy; at least it does to me. I know there are forums I have never seen nor will I ever see, I have seen some come and go, being closed of for some within a day of it appearing, but I shall not name these forums in respect of the teams. In any case does any ordinary quest GM know what the World GM’s are doing, I don’t think so and I know they don’t have access to the World GM forums, now I would call that secrecy as well. Why should any GM not be able to know what is going on in the world, I find that odd to be honest. I don’t know if I overstep my boundaries here but I will then speak of team structure which I think is also a problem. I have stated this within the GM team before I left so I will merely summarize here as we are talking of this anyways. The team is like a pyramid, at top L then we get World GM’s, then GM’s then Project Team, and then Project Writers and finally the players at the bottom, no one can see the forum of the one above, and very very little information is passed downwards. I myself found that frustrating and I do believe that a more open structure could work equally well if not better, but I know few share this view. I see no reason why information is not passed downwards, it would serve well I think to have many issues shared and also would allow for more views on the matter. I do believe that a horizontal team structure can work just as well as a strictly vertical one, but again this is just my opinion.
And speaking of views on a matter. There was the vote for the twins and “the community “was asked. How many voted on that one…56. Now I will be so rude to say that it is not the opinion of the community that is the opinion of part of the community. The survey was open for 24 hrs and 45 minutes according to times of posting and if we count the posts for and against we have 11 to 1 (excluding posts from L, Stormspirit, Pankoki and posters who posts more than once) which mean that 27 % of the people who voted in favour posted what they thought, where as only 7 % of those who voted against voiced their concerns in a post. I think this should perhaps be considered as well, why do people not voice concerns? Could it be that people are afraid to post critique of things, fearing “retaliation” or perhaps a ban for being too outspoken in disagreement, I am leaning to that answer but I imply you to ponder it for a moment while you look at the numbers again.
Generally I don’t have much faith in a forum survey; it is hardly something I would base a decision upon so to say. If we look through the forum it is filled with praise and back-patting, but don’t you ever wonder why there is so little critique? Could be everything is A-OK and in that case fine, but at least from the people I speak to it seems things are not ok, in fact somewhat far from ok. Out of respect for those who have confided in me I will not disclose any names, but I have been told that people are afraid to post critique as they fear being banned or punished by the team, or simply end on some GM’s “black list” so said GM will cause them problems. I think this is a sign that something is terribly wrong in the community, there is a huge rift between players and GM’s in some cases I think. Just think of this simple example.
Joe Average begins to play Layonara. He likes it here and wants to progress into epic levels or perhaps even world leader. Now suddenly Joe finds out that there is something he disagrees strongly with and for him there are two possible options. Easiest is to keep quiet with it, perhaps even praising the team for their skill and dedication, ensuring he has done nothing wrong that may hinder him from reaching his goal. On the other hand Joe could also publicly or in a PM voice his opinion and concern; however that could mean that he would step on some toes and Joe knows that those who will be approving him for his goal are those he will be criticizing. They will when time comes discuss his application in a closed forum where he has no chance to defend himself, let alone know what is being said about him, so Joe goes with what he knows is safe and stays quiet.
I believe people fear the team, they fear the wrath of the GM’s and they know the GM’s hold the ultimate power in Layonara, as well as many believes that power corrupts.
Now Harloff made a statement about GM’s being allowed to do more than players. Even if this is not the case, it is how it can be perceived by people. This is what it is important to watch out for, perceptions. It does not always matter how things are, it matters how they are perceived by the community. If you never see a GM denied for Epic/World Leader and you see others denied it does not require much to seed the thought that they were approved solely because they are GM’s.
Please note that the following example is in no way intended to discredit the player of the character nor the character, it is simply used to illustrate a point and I mean no disrespect.
An example is the case of Remiel. Remiel fell from grace as far as I know and thus lost his paladin powers, or so you would expect at least. I for one am very puzzled then as to why he still has paladin levels, as well as fighter levels, the best of both worlds so to speak. With no explanation for this it simply reads as if he was a GM and thus he shouldn’t lose too much as one would imagine a paladin falling from grace would retain nothing of his paladinhood nor gain the bonus of fighter feats or perhaps it is just me that sees paladinhood as a very black/white thing, there is no middle ground in such.
I do believe that it is of utmost importance in everything one does, especially as a member of the team, that one thinks about how ones actions or commenting will be perceived. Of course there is never a fail-safe method, but at least by having this in mind constantly one will improve the odds for not arising misperceptions.
Another prime example about how things are perceived is this, and again please bear in mind that this should not be read as an attack or attempt to discredit anyone, but merely how I have perceived things. It has been brought up that Pankoki and Stormspirit play much together and also Pankoki ran Stormspirits ECDQ as a one-on-one thing. Now as they are friends they should of course be allowed to play together, I believe everyone agrees to that. However one should perhaps note that the perceptions of how things are might be different. As to illustrate, Eldarwen and Acacea and Triba are all chars who spend a lot of time together or so I gather at least. Now when Pankoki runs a quest where these two attend and also take initiative, and by doing so gets more attention, as Pankoki states himself, those who take initiative get rewarded. To people that may very easily be seen as favouritism or as Pankoki running the quest for Eldarwen, although this perhaps is not the case, something I shall not determine, I will merely focus on how it may be perceived. But in any case such perception is troublesome as it is something that will not just die out if you don’t speak of it, it will remain in the hidden and living well there, trust me. I don’t have a solution for such problem, how to change the perception as it seems so integrated into the fabric of this world now, but we must bear in mind that people forget such things very slowly.
However as I have mentioned taking initiative I have a comment I would like to make as well, which deals not with perceptions nor anyone specific, but more a general statement. When we see characters taking initiative for a whole group it can be hard to add to this group. This is especially the case if the char in question is very intent on wanting the spotlight, and thus the attention of the GM. Now this may be all fine IC play, but I think we as players also besides being RP’ers have an OOC consideration to our fellow players, the people controlling the other chars in the party. I think it is the obligation of any player to think of how we may allow everyone in a party to have a moment in the spotlight if possible, and as GM’s we should try to accommodate everyone having at least a moment where they may be important, something I tried to implement on my quests at least. It may be intimidating if your typing skills are not overly good, if you are not speaking English as your native language and you are grouped with those epic GM chars. I can well understand why some don’t really participate in a quest then but hang back and “leech” xp to use that term. I think at that point it becomes important that we remember our OOC considerations and perhaps at times set them above being correct IC play. This would, or so I hope, make it easier to integrate high and low levels making them better team-players. To put it simple I think we should have consideration of our fellow players and set that above the need to be correct IC for our char always. This does not mean you cannot RP your char, it just means that sometime we should stop trying to hug the limelight and let others step up, or even encourage them to step up. Even if this perhaps not is proper RP for your char, it is a consideration for your fellow player and I find that equally important.
Another issue, which I think is in the spirit of the posts Harloff used to make, is about crafting. Crafting is a nice addition to NWN, but there are issues. The imposed limitations for once, they were added to stop people from mass producing I think, but it does not stop anyone from mass producing, it only means I now have to spend 40 times as long polishing 200 gemstones, but I still do it, although annoyed. And annoyed is the word here, it causes only annoyance for those who wish to become great crafters, something that requires hours of grinding. Yes crafting is grinding, at least if you want to be good, that is a fact I believe. I have heard the argument that the limit adds realism, but I hardly think that it is a bonus as there are so many other places where realism is missing in crafting, which I can illustrate by these examples:
- From a 5lb gold ingot you can make 1 ring, and an amulet takes 10lbs of gold, what happens to the leftovers?
- Swords are made in molds, such sword would hardly work, and it is made from metal and by hammering it, not by pouring liquid metal into a mold that is how you make cast iron which is not useable for weapons.
- Costumization is difficult, but the concept of changing your armor after it has been made holds no basis in reality, armors are costum made, or at least if we go for plate armors.
Just 3 quick examples to show how realism already is missing so why try to make some realism by adding an annoyance factor for the people who craft.
Now someone mentioned the amounts of rules here. I myself have no problem with rules, but I think we also need to understand that no matter how many rules you make there will always be people who break them, or go to that place where you are no longer playing within the spirit of the rule but going by the letter of the rule, which can be a difference. People will most often try to get the most of things, I believe it is in our nature really, and so people will utilize whatever means they have available to make themselves get to the most favourable situation. I mean we see spells that can make people do things they perhaps were not meant to do, and so the spell gets changed so it can no longer be used in such powerful way. I cannot help but wonder at times why this is, if you take a look at it from a player standpoint, a point I try to take as often as I can, it would seem like you are indeed punished for being clever and using your resources to the fullest potential. This is a low magic world, so by definition spellcasters will be far more powerful than non-magic users, simple as that. So of course you will see spellcasters being able to do more than most others, they will become the most powerful on the server. I recall the discussion of Tenser’s Transformation where it was discussed if said spell should be disallowed as it would allow mages and sorcerers to solo far more than anyone else. Well if we just drag in the low-magic world view it is obvious that they should be able to go places fighters wouldn’t even dare of going. It is how things are when a world is set in low-magic. As those without spell abilities cannot improve through powerful magical items they will not be able to keep up with magic users. So I ask this, why hit on those who actually play clever and use their spells and a skill to the maximum of what is possible, to me it somehow seems a bit odd.
I know this is volunteer work and that no one gets paid, and L has to pay for server costs, so yes it is his world and bravo to those who help create it. However they are not the only ones giving their time actually, what about the players who spend hour after hour here, without them there wouldn’t be a world as we have now. Just a small spin on this which I think is important to remember.
I would also like to make a comment on the post Harloff made with regards to his attacks but first a word before my point. This is not intended as an attack on anyone, it is a statement of a fact, and I imply you to read it not as an attack or slur. Yes such attack as he made are uncalled for I agree and alas it has drawn attention away from the points he made. However I would like to add this. In the past there have been several instances where the posts made by Pankoki have been sub-par to the high standards set by for instance Rhizome, who is always respectful in his replies to players no matter how many times a question have been asked and no matter how “dumb” it may seem. Time ago the posts made by Pankoki did often have a hard tone and were not always respectful to the players, this however has changed and respect to Pankoki for that. However one must expect that people do not forget such easily. If you once see a GM post a hard reply to your question you will remember it, it will only make the rift between players and GM’s bigger as no one wants to have such reply to their posts, hence they don’t post. As such I will merely say this: do to others as you wish them to do to you, for people do not forget past transgressions easily.
My next point is a simple one. I think as things are Layonara is on the point of being too large. This is especially with regards to how things work; it started as a small game for a few people but has grown tremendously. One cannot expect things that work with few people to work with such huge community as well. For Layonara to continue to grow I think drastic changes should be made or it will break under the pressure caused by a growing players base.
I’ve seen that several posts say that if you are not satisfied with how things are you should just find another place to play instead of complaining about what is not right. Well I think that is very wrong, I think if you are not satisfied it is important that you voice why you are not content. It is not to disrespect anyone or anything people complain, or at least for me it is not. I care deeply for this world and when I complain it is out of concern and I wish to bring attention to things that might be perceived negatively by others than me, in an attempt to make things better, or so is my feeble hope. But from the posts I have read through there I get a distinct feeling that people think we should all bow down and be content or leave, something I can never agree with, one should always stand up and say what one believes to be right and wrong, no matter if this is a free game or not. If we are at a point where we cannot criticise or at least the community doesn’t think we should do so I think we are truly lost. It is really seen as this, when one posts critique you will most likely see 5 others posting that they don’t agree and that the team is doing great and you should not complain, I think that shows that perhaps within the community itself there is no room to criticise which is truly saddening.
But as I have seen most who post hold the aforementioned opinion I shall take my hat and leave, for I am indeed not content with how things are. Thus for me it is a sad day in a way, but also a day where I will put my frustration to rest once and for all. When I came here first I thought I would play here until Layonara was no more, I joined the teams to add what I could to this world that I had come to love and where I have spent numerous hours, playing and interacting with you all. However I had the simple hope I could perhaps help things improve for there will always be things that needs improvement, but alas I could not. Or perhaps rather I could not keep my energy for it, I have felt drained due to my frustration with the game, a reason I have not played in a while. I could simply no more find the energy to log on and be reminded of my frustration. I have found many a good friend here and it is with sadness I say farewell to those, but I hope we may still communicate from time to time.
To quote Lonnarin on the options available I will sum it up as this:
Go to another Server – Done, already found one :)
Go to EB and buy a new game – Done, bought WoW quite a while ago :)
Go outside meet women – Done and done as well although I stick to the one I already met. :)
But joking aside, and this was intended as a joke and not a stab. I think things could be improved in many aspects and perhaps they will in time. I have done as much as I can and have the energy for, posting about my concerns both here and on the GM forums while I was a GM, but at some point I have stopped to care. I make this final post as I think someone should stand up for Harloff who made some very valid points if you look past the wording of his post.
I had hoped that there would be posts from those who share these critical views on things, as this was a prime opportunity to get a debate going about the problems. But alas it was not meant to be, which is saddening.
I have had a wonderful time playing here before frustration set in, and I hope when I think back on Layonara that I will be reminded of the good times for there has been an incredible amount of those, but alas I fear I shall remember the end better than the beginning.
Farewell and best of luck to you all
*takes his hat of the rack and leaves, his head hanging low*
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I'm sorry to see you go Meizter. Great post and I think you've made some valid points. And it speaks on your behalf that you take the time to defend Harloff, of whom I know he always had the best intentions with Layo.
I can definately understand that as a gemcrafter the new craftsystem doesn't work for you. I myself spend from time to time almost a hour in polishing gems, luckily avoiding RSI despite all the ridiculous clicking.
With you now leaves the last of a group, You, Harloff and Winter, whith whom I had a great time playing and let's not forget being the founders of Raven. Can't say much else than take care right now, because I don't like farewells.
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"...I have a feeling I will be banned for this post, but I want to express my thoughts first, and should I be banned so be it..."
*sighs* Come on man. You knew darn good and well you wouldn't be. You put that there because it was an intentional dig at me. Very sad to see that. You are not banned because this was constructive, not flaming.
“….- Gods: why aren’t people told of them, it is like having a cardinal at church having to call the pope to get an opinion on a matter or explain why something is a sin. Even high level clerics here do not know why things are as they are, and if I played a cleric I would find that immensely frustrating….” Pretty simple really. They are still being defined. I did not start this out with a budget of TSR, nor the man power. The team does not have the budget nor the manpower of WoTC. It is really very simple. It is called time and we are still defining them.
“…- Krashin: This is a very recent thing but none the less I will bring it up. We have had a history and in depth description of Krashin lying for perhaps 5 months, but people are not allowed to see it. Why not just throw it on LORE for all to see instead of waiting for a new handbook, we have a LORE-team after all…..” I have already answered this above. Guess it wasn’t good enough of an answer but that is the answer.
“…In any case does any ordinary quest GM know what the World GM’s are doing, I don’t think so and I know they don’t have access to the World GM forums, now I would call that secrecy as well. Why should any GM not be able to know what is going on in the world, I find that odd to be honest….” They are running quests. I will never require them to get approval from players on what quest should and should not be run. They are here as volunteers. They do the quests that they can when they can. If that is not good enough then I do not know what to tell you. *sitting here totally stunned with this statement*
“….I don’t know if I overstep my boundaries here but I will then speak of team structure which I think is also a problem. I have stated this within the GM team before I left so I will merely summarize here as we are talking of this anyways. The team is like a pyramid, at top L then we get World GM’s, then GM’s then Project Team, and then Project Writers and finally the players at the bottom, no one can see the forum of the one above, and very very little information is passed downwards. I myself found that frustrating and I do believe that a more open structure could work equally well if not better, but I know few share this view. I see no reason why information is not passed downwards, it would serve well I think to have many issues shared and also would allow for more views on the matter. I do believe that a horizontal team structure can work just as well as a strictly vertical one, but again this is just my opinion…..” WOW! There are only 3-4 positions that has to have authority and that is all we have. We have a team of 30 (around that) and only 3-4 “managers perse” that is pretty darn flat! Me of course, Dorganath to merge all of the content and get the module out (no easy task and I will not allow just anybody to do that), Orth and OneST8 doing another project. That is about it as far as managers. You tell me how to get it any more flat than that. If you think you can do better in a company or business then give it a shot. This is the link to the org chart and it is darn flat. http://layonaraonline.com/organization%5Fchart/Layonara%20Online%20Organization%20Chart_files/Layonara%20Online%20Organization%20Chart_frames.htm (http://layonaraonline.com/organization_chart/Layonara%20Online%20Organization%20Chart_files/Layonara%20Online%20Organization%20Chart_frames.htm)
“…I know this is volunteer work and that no one gets paid, and L has to pay for server costs, so yes it is his world and bravo to those who help create it. However they are not the only ones giving their time actually, what about the players who spend hour after hour here, without them there wouldn’t be a world as we have now. Just a small spin on this which I think is important to remember….” Totally agree. But again you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill problem. There is little to nothing that can be done about all of this in a volunteer project. It is not a company and we do not have funding and unlimited man-power hours. If it was a company where we had an income and guaranteed man-power hours things would be a little different but it is not. We do the best we can. To some it is not good enough and that is fine, everybody has their own opinion. If you can do better then go out there and give it a whirl.
“…I’ve seen that several posts say that if you are not satisfied with how things are you should just find another place to play instead of complaining about what is not right. Well I think that is very wrong, I think if you are not satisfied it is important that you voice why you are not content….” Agreed. You can talk about content, what should go in the game, what is wrong in the game systems, how to fix those game systems etc. But don’t flame, don’t accuse, don’t assume you know how to lay out the structure better etc. You can always recommend but if things do not go the way of the recommendation it does not mean that you are right and we are wrong because we did not choose what you recommended (or anybody recommended).
"….But as I have seen most who post hold the aforementioned opinion I shall take my hat and leave, for I am indeed not content with how things are. Thus for me it is a sad day in a way, but also a day where I will put my frustration to rest once and for all. When I came here first I thought I would play here until Layonara was no more, I joined the teams to add what I could to this world that I had come to love and where I have spent numerous hours, playing and interacting with you all. However I had the simple hope I could perhaps help things improve for there will always be things that needs improvement, but alas I could not. Or perhaps rather I could not keep my energy for it, I have felt drained due to my frustration with the game, a reason I have not played in a while. I could simply no more find the energy to log on and be reminded of my frustration. I have found many a good friend here and it is with sadness I say farewell to those, but I hope we may still communicate from time to time…..” Good luck out there and I hope you find what you are looking for. But judging by this post I think it will take you running your own world with your own content and teams in order for you to be happy. It is not an easy thing, give it a shot. Dedicate 40+ hours a month to something with even a team of 3-5 (you will need at least that to get even a small player base) and good luck finding the good ones out there. I do wish you the best and I hope you find what you are looking for in the RP field.
“….But joking aside, and this was intended as a joke and not a stab. I think things could be improved in many aspects and perhaps they will in time. I have done as much as I can and have the energy for, posting about my concerns both here and on the GM forums while I was a GM, but at some point I have stopped to care. I make this final post as I think someone should stand up for Harloff who made some very valid points if you look past the wording of his post. …” You didn’t really stop caring, you grew tired of trying to help improve things. Quite a difference there. Now put yourself in our shoes where we are still trying 4 years later. Change and improvement is not easy and it takes a long time especially in a strictly volunteer situation. It is no easy task to make sweeping changes with limited man-power, no set hours, no real way to get the changes done except the love and desire of the volunteers carrying through on their commitments (something that is hard to find). Doing what we do we have to work through the weariness, the torment of being beat on every single day (and yes it is very nearly every single day). We do the best we can, just like everybody out there. I am glad you found a server and I hope it continues to hold up to what you want it to be months or years down the road.
It is sad to see you guys go, you are great RP'ers that is for certain. But this is usually what happens when friends start talking about how bad/wrong things are. They get each other in a boil until it gets out of control. All well and good as everybody has a right to their own feelings and desires. Good luck and take care. Wherever you go the server is lucky to have your RP join them.
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I have several things to say in response to Meizter's post.
I applaud the maturity and decorum used in the presentation of his concerns.
I cannot bring myself to understand why on earth he would leave before even giving the chance for things to improve.
I agree with virtually every statement he made, especially in regards to the perceptions of "DM favoritism" as it relates to the interaction on quests between high-level characters, DMs, and lower-level characters. I do not mean to say that such things are actually the case, but, as stressed in Meizter's post, the perception is a common one.
I disagree with the comment on mass crafting to an extent, because the limits on the number of finished products that can be made keep the chances for success (and XP gain) at appropriate places, instead of putting fifty ingots, fifty molds, and fifty polished gems onto the jeweler's bench when you've only got a 5% chance.
I disagree with the comment on the customization of armor; for me, all the time spent at those customization tools is OOC. I'm just trying to get the look that my character would've bought in the first place.
I disagree with the sentiment that we are likely lost; please, Meizter, at least give the chance for betterment. The way you posted, even if the things you had said had been a harsh, glaring critique of everything Layonara is, gives the team no reason to see you banned. It was your respectfulness (as opposed to Harloff's lack thereof, who may not have been banned it had required a unanimous vote from the Team; different levels of tolerance for such on their parts, it would seem) that makes your post a good example on the way to present even the most dire of concerns.
I feel that your judgement is off in regards to your immediate leavetaking, but that is your choice. I wish you well in the choice you did make, Meizter.
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Very well formulated Meizter. It shows that you have given these matters some thought and wished to share your concerns with the community in a constructive manner. Thank you for that. I am very sorry to see you go. I had great times with Geir as a player and GM both. Stay in touch... and lets get this get-together organized in the end of July. Could be fun to meet you guys. :)
Your concerns, as well as Harloff's, have been brought to the GM forum and are being discussed. We'll do our best to address these matters even though none of them are easily solved.
Check in from time to time.
Kind regards, Thorsten
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Most things I would have commented on were already taken care of by many of the others who posted before me.
I too agree there may be a "perception" on GM favoritism (I say "may be" because I haven't noticed it myself, but I tend to not look too deep into these things and go with the philosophy, "As long as I'm enjoying my time here with my character, who cares who is getting special treatment or not." However I know some people do), which can be intimidating to players. Really, its not hard for GM's to have that kind of influence on a server such as this, and some might abuse it, but if you think these aren't policed in a sence, I think you are wrong.
Remember a rule was placed for ECDQ's that they will be no longer then 25 hours or 5 sessions. For those who think there is favoritism should ask themselves why this rule was made? I'm pretty sure it wasn't because some "NON"-GM had too long an ECDQ.
Thats all I have for now, heh, I work better in small spurts then making huge paragraphs, I dont have the patience for it. The last thing I'll say, which I really can't find a way to support my thoughts on it. Is the server is growing too fast and I myself am starting to lose that great feel I once had for it on the first couple of years I was on the server. I doubt I will ever leave, as I already put so much time and dedication to my character and her role here, I would not be satisfied leaving until the day her story ends on Layonara... which I doubt will be anytime soon.
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"....Remember a rule was placed for ECDQ's that they will be no longer then 25 hours or 5 sessions. For those who think there is favoritism should ask themselves why this rule was made? I'm pretty sure it wasn't because some "NON"-GM had too long an ECDQ...."
Nope, that is very much incorrect. It was made because a GM had a too long quest and I didn't think it was a good thing to happen as the perception of favortism happened and sadly is still happening. What you stated is exactly the opposite of why it was made. Sadly people always think the worse in things but that is okay. We make mistakes and we try to fix them and in this case the rule came from the exact opposite reason you stated.
I have to say I am saddened to see that people think so badly of things that they assume the rule was in place to hurt players. The rule is also in place because we can not keep up with the flood of quests and quest requests. We are already a long ways behind and we had to adjust things in order to see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.
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"I believe people fear the team, they fear the wrath of the GM’s and they know the GM’s hold the ultimate power in Layonara"
As i am one of those that thinks it will be held against you if you criticise too much , i will step over my fear and after reading both Meizters post and Leantars reply ask the things i'm missing in the reply that interest me because it would take away most of the questions i have .
"That a class isn’t working is perhaps also a reason why so few play it, who wants to play something that is basically useless. About adding “I understand the limitations of my class” to a submission is really not necessary I think as such lies implicit in applying for the class, however you will no where find the calculations on how DC’s are determined etc. for your feats, which should be fixed at least so people can stay clear of these non-working classes. But even if you know the limitations you should still be allowed to say “this is not working” and ask for it to be fixed, I see no reason why one should be content with something that is not functioning as intended."
How is the view of the team on this ?
"Lucinda has some of the best domains and the golems are not to be trifled with. I will wager that 90% of the people here when planning a character think about how to get the best of it power-wise and I shall readily be the first to say that for me it goes as well, although I chose poorly when I chose the skald
I believe the bear Harloff mentions is summonable at level 17 and has a CR of 25 or there about. Now don’t say that such summon is reasonable, with such summon you only need to buff it and stand back and watch it kill while you harvest the XP. Basically I believe with such you can solo Dregar easily."
Is the team working on balancing this and IF not ,why not ?...For me as a specialised fighter character (weaponmaster)it is frustating to see that "spellslingers"can do so much more then a fighter.I know and understand that this server is meant as one of the few servers that encourage partyplay a lot and wonder how it is possible that "spellslingers" somehow are the only ones that can tackle regions alone and profit from that a lot.
"Now Harloff made a statement about GM’s being allowed to do more than players. Even if this is not the case, it is how it can be perceived by people. This is what it is important to watch out for, perceptions. It does not always matter how things are, it matters how they are perceived by the community. If you never see a GM denied for Epic/World Leader and you see others denied it does not require much to seed the thought that they were approved solely because they are GM’s"
As i have been wondering about that myself , i would like to know if the team talks about a behavior code for gm/dm characters regarding the following things :Approval for WLDQ/Epic;Approval of reimbursed items lost to their chars;limitation on their chars due to roleplaying events;assigned items after quests for the same characters.I'm asking this because i have seen some things that in my eyes place gm characters above non-dm characters.I will not put any names or examples in this post and if you want to know witch things i talk about,please feel free to ask either in tells or trough pm.
"People will most often try to get the most of things, I believe it is in our nature really, and so people will utilize whatever means they have available to make themselves get to the most favourable situation. I mean we see spells that can make people do things they perhaps were not meant to do, and so the spell gets changed so it can no longer be used in such powerful way. I cannot help but wonder at times why this is, if you take a look at it from a player standpoint, a point I try to take as often as I can, it would seem like you are indeed punished for being clever and using your resources to the fullest potential."
A point i take to hart myself. As a weaponmaster you have to have an intelligence of 13 or higher to even be able to take the PRC.Is it wrong if i play my character to his full potential ? This intelligence in my eyes makes him smart enough to NOT run into things were he can get killed , but instead he WILL lure the monsters out a few at a time simply because it improves his chances to survive and get what he came for.
If you (the team) would be so kind to give me a guideline on how i SHOULD see it would be nice and would perhaps prevent me from making mistakes as to server policy in luring rules.
I know the team and in particular Leantar could spend their time better then replying to posts like this and i understand that it gets frustrating to see these posts come up now and again .Apart from the questions i have put inhere i would like to say that i realy enjoy playing here and that because i have turned my character from a pure adventuring one into a more roleplaying,hanging around Hlint character, the changes sofar to improve roleplay opportunities are greatly appreciated.
Last but not least ,Meizter i realy hate to see you go forgood and that is not because Raven loses a great jeweler but because i will miss a great character.
With you the last of the founders of Raven will go and i'm sad to see that happen,be happy in the choices you make and i wish you much fun in whatever game you find to play.Please try to visit from time to time and let us know how things go with you and Harloff.
"May Aeridin guide your ways "....*grins* "Wait ...wrong one " May the storm be with you "*smiles* Good luck friend ...hope to see you around once in while.
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Okay. Got 5 min to write something before I am on the road 350 km.
1. Yes: Crtisime is aloud, should and always be object (or at least as much as possible)
2. Secrecy or gabs in history: Either way – GMs should have the knowledge of the world or what there is. GMs are “Gods” so to say.
3. Gms are Gms for one reason. They should be discipline, mature, loyal to Layonara and making sure it developments (and not to friends, players, GMs or even L).
4. Being a player and Gm at the same time – that gives problem in my eyes. But as Dan stated. Then Gms would be burn out. What to do? I have no clue
5. There are good things and bad things about Layo and there will always be. Bad things are just problems/ a challenge which needs to be solved.
6. Structure of Layo and the Team: I have no idea how it works but flat structures are good (looking from a medium big company).
7. GMs: to favour players: DAARRRHHH! Wrong answer (but this happens or players suddenly sees it).
8. GMs: Fair play – give all a piece of the spotlight – BINGO!
Frustrated: Been there, done that and I am still there on occasions but I think I have and idea that might will help a bit…
But it is a secrete ;) for now
Geir and Harloff. Sorry to see you leave. There is probably not much I can do to get you back…
Well I will stick around here for a while and see what happens.
And in the near future 29.07 - I believe I can convince you guys if my idea gets the green light.
Thomas
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Ok. It is pretty clear that we have a line between the GM team and the player base. I don't think that anyone is going to dispute this. What I think is unfortunate is that so few players have stepped up to initiate any kind of change.
Before anyone replies to this post, please read it through and think about it. It is all too easy to just fire off a post whether you supporting or dissenting. Really sit back and read it a few times and digest it, then post your thoughts.
Let me address some things that I see. I look at what are now several seperate posts on this topic and I see mostly the same people responding. These are not the people that have the problems really. It is the silent people out there that are having the problem.
Here is a suggestion (and I say this with no sarcasm or any kind of snideness)...
OPEN YOUR MOUTHS!
If you want to affect change then you have to change yourself. How is the team to know that there is a problem if you do not inform the team? If you have a problem with a specific GM then go to another one. We talk amongst ourselves but there is no dark and smoky backroom where we plot the demise of a dissenting player.
I for one welcome comments and suggestions. At the end of every one of my quest sessions I open it up for questions, comments, and complaints. Fire away. The only rule I ask is that you keep it respectful and constructive. It is really hard for someone to improve if you just tell them that they suck.
The same goes for the world as a whole. How are we to improve *anything* if you, the players, dont tell us? This is your world as well as mine, or Orth's, or Pan and Storm's. Open your mouths and tell us what is wrong. We are not going to hold it against you.
If you still feel that the forums are not a 'safe' place to let these things be known, then email L. His door is ALWAYS open. ALWAYS. Tell me where else can you find something like that? Even before becoming a GM I can remember PMing L and getting a darn near immediate response. L cares for Layonara and wants to see everyone happy and having fun. This is not to say that his response will be 100% to your liking, but rest assured, your voice will be heard and that is saying something. And it should also be noted that when there is a discussion that needs to take place or a problem that needs addressed, L will put this out to the GM team. Now before you read that and think that L just copies PMs to the GM forum, I can tell you that EVERY time L brings a PM or email concern from a player, it is done anonymously to us. He posts the content and that is it. No names ever enter the picture unless the player approves of it first. Names that happen to be in the PM are often blanked out or covered by *******.
Your voices can be heard. The initiative is on you, the players, to take it. Tell us what you have a problem with. If you dont like something then let us know. The time we have may be better spent somewhere else.
Let's not confuse things though. Having your voice heard and having everything go your way is something different. Let's all go into this with the proper expectations. If the team goes in a different direction than you want us to, then you have to accept that. You dont win every battle after all. The point is, we dont know that you disagree with the direction unless you tell us. We discuss almost everything that is done in the world for quite some time before we move forward to implement. Rest assured that player concerns are a part of that discussion.
So please people, if you have a problem, let us know. Whether it is a post on the forum, a PM to a GM, or an email to L. Speak your mind (respectfully) and let your voice be heard. Sitting out there and stewing on a problem is helping no one. In the end, you lose your fun and we lose a player. No one wants that.
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I already responded to this sort of thing twice, so I don't really want to double or triple cover, but there are some things in this one that I feel, while not quite accurate, are easy enough to reply to.
Things like complaints that "we get holdable flowers when we've got broken classes."
Think for a moment on how much time is really involved in both of those. They're not even in the same league, so honestly in my opinion saying that flowers 'made the list' instead of the huge amount of time necessary to fix a class that will affect a handful of people, does not feel entirely truthful to me.
If someone finds a hak on the vault that can wave a magic wand at Layo-PrCs and fix them with just the addition of plopping an npc down or something, then by all means! That certainly should have taken priority.
But that is not the case, and so when cruising the vault and finding something waiting to be implemented and thinking, "Hey, this is kind of cool--maybe some people would enjoy this," and some people do, it seems more like "Mission accomplished," not "too bad this took up the balance slot! Ah well!"
That said, I feel that if it cannot be fixed right away and players must live with it as a flavor class until then, it should be clearly stated in its write-up so that they have the information beforehand. Yes, it is for roleplaying value. But let them look at how it works, and ask themselves, "is this key to my character's concept, and will I enjoy myself down the line regardless of true mechanical benefit?"
Edit--fixed a double "are" in the first paragraph.
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When you are new to Layonara and a beginner in "L's" world, everything seems unfair and unequitable. The dice rolls are against you even the "lag" on the server is your enemy. This world has some deficiencies, some things that dont work the way they could or should. Whether it be the rules, the software or the hardware. I'm so far down the food chain, i cant even see the the DM's, GM's or deities of this world.
Just like in real life (RL), there are plenty of things to complain about. We all hear the sayings dont just complain about it, do something about it, or be constructive in your criticism(s). Each person whether here or in RL has their own individual way of dealing with stress and frustration. I think as human beings we make concessions or at the very least tolerate each individual's right to express their emotions, opinions or feelings. We actually find ourselves (as seen in this thread) defending each player's right to express those very things.
We also have the right to screen out those opinions that we dont agree with or might cause us to feel uneasy about our own situations or person(self). Whether as a player or in RL or as the creator of a cyber world (excuse the expression). It is up to each of us to hold fast and hard to what we hold true and dear to ourselves.
Hence, some will stay in Layonara, some will leave, and some may return. The best thing we can do for each other is to make our stay here pleasant and enjoyable. Again, hence "all" the rules that the creator has set down for this world and the palyers in it.These rules help to form the foundation for fun in this RP world.
I believe the God, Jehova of the Christian faith did the very same thing. Created and began to, out of necessity, create laws and rules so people could co-exist. Otherwise, as seen in other PW's or MMO's or (whatever else exists), chaos reigns and rules, making the experience unpleaseant and intolerable for most players.
This world is free to enjoy, where we can learn and grow in the RP experience, but it is not free for players to abuse or misuse, not at the expense of what has been invested by the founders and for those that spend their precious time to maintain. And not at the expense of the enjoyment of the those that want to play in this world.
So as a newbie to Layonara, i hesitate to express an opinion, but have read and heard the opinions of those participating in this thread. I feel compassioned (word?) to say thanks to those willing to express their opinions whether i agree with them or not. I ultimately, of course, agree with "The Man", its his world! But such honest and frank discussions, although time consuming for some, ultimately give players the feeling of "community", a word that is so profoundly being thrown around in these forums.
Even the printed words of "L" himself speak of an expanding and growing world. A world with a sense of "community" that is shared by those that participate and "live " in Layonara. There is a common thread of decency, commonality as well as diversity that is shared in this world by all players. This common sense of "community" has been preserved, nurtured and maintained by it's creator and the team that serves us all. For what purpose(?), so we as players can RP, simply stated!
I don't agree with everything in this created world, but until I can put together the hardware and work out the software and create my own vision of a PW, I will respect this world and it's rules. Not without some whining and griping, for that is what i do in RL too. But i wont tear down the institution i work/play for unless I can do better myself. So I will direct myself to making Layonara the best place to RP for myself and others. I wont be perfect and at times i may not be believable as a character, but i am learning, And i havent seen or found a better place or safer place to learn, than right here in Layonara. I believe this so much so, that i am encouraging interested family to join me in Layonara.
And should the the money gods choose to bless me, i plan on helping with financial support as well. Something about "put your money where your mouth is?!"
DM's, GM's, staff and players continue to make this a great place to game and be, now if only i can convince my wife to go on line with me. hummmmm....Thanks!
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Leanthar - 6/23/2006 8:52 AM "....Remember a rule was placed for ECDQ's that they will be no longer then 25 hours or 5 sessions. For those who think there is favoritism should ask themselves why this rule was made? I'm pretty sure it wasn't because some "NON"-GM had too long an ECDQ...."
Nope, that is very much incorrect. It was made because a GM had a too long quest and I didn't think it was a good thing to happen as the perception of favortism happened and sadly is still happening. What you stated is exactly the opposite of why it was made. Sadly people always think the worse in things but that is okay. We make mistakes and we try to fix them and in this case the rule came from the exact opposite reason you stated.
*blinks* ummm... I guess I could have chose my wording better, though I thought I was clear, Leanthar, I was on your side on this one. What you stated the reason for it happening was what I said, just in different context.
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hmmm, I'm quoted JUST short of "pick up a sourcebook or codebook, pitch in and help out if you want things fixed" as far as options go... the one that requires effort on the player's part. I'm not screaming "love it or leave it", to any extent, but if you don't like what's going on in the world... make an effort to join the teams and fix it.
I too play a skald and often for over a year and a half now. Yeah, I know things were lacking in the PrC, I used to blind, deafen and cause terror in myself whenever I failed my willsaves against myself! At that point, I filled out a bug report, and it was fixed by the next update. As for the team's dedication in this matter, Orth took time out of his own playing schedule to send me a tell in game about not taking too many skald levels yet, as the class is currently being streamlined to just 5 levels with most of the same features, but improved.
I would also like to point out that I am a skald who enjoys walking around with flowers in my hand... la la la la! *prances about* I personally welcome any and all additions to props, handheld items, nicknacks, paddywacks and superfluous minutia I can get! It's the little things like mages holding books, clerics having holy symbols, necromancers customizing their staves to have skulls on top, married couples having a baby/bludgeoning object, and dudes getting other dudes pretending to be women flowers that help the whole immersion factor.
I was a GM here briefly, but wound up being bogged down with too much schoolwork to keep up with the constant NEEDS (wants) of the community. Every day I checked my account, I'd have about 6 new players sending me CDQ requests so they could turn into red dragon disciples by lvl 12, turn chaotic evil, validate their god-sex cults as official history, get free golem armies, have it suddenly rain yew from the skies, etc etc. I would put up in huge bold letters on the CDQ request entry that I was full and not accepting more, highlight it, paint it red and everything... and there would be 8 more requests the next day right under it. Then when you finally get to throw somebody's CDQ, they just don't show up and here you spent hours and hours drawing up plot, characts, designing the player special item rewards and having to send them in to update the database... and it's a no-show for 3 months. DMing on even the lowest level of responsibilities is STRESSFUL, because there are tons of stressful people out there. They sit and complain about there not being enough quests for all to play, then the same ones are those that send a request each to EVERY gm listed, then start going behind the backs of others requesting things that Leanthar already said no to. (Azaria was told she couldn't be a Red Dragon Disciple by Leanthar, so she sent every GM a PM asking to have it run behind his back). These same people are the ones who avoid the public quest calander like the plague, the quests we actually want to run. Calander quests are seldom because the bottom 1 percentile of the populace wants 99% of our time running CDQs for every hangnail they get, hence the latest update to the rules where people on CDQs no longer get quest xp.
This is a free service, and as such, not beholden to any consumer's timetable.
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"Is the team working on balancing this and IF not ,why not ?...For me as a specialised fighter character (weaponmaster)it is frustating to see that "spellslingers"can do so much more then a fighter.I know and understand that this server is meant as one of the few servers that encourage partyplay a lot and wonder how it is possible that "spellslingers" somehow are the only ones that can tackle regions alone and profit from that a lot."
"This is a low magic world, so by definition spellcasters will be far more powerful than non-magic users, simple as that. So of course you will see spellcasters being able to do more than most others, they will become the most powerful on the server. I recall the discussion of Tenser’s Transformation where it was discussed if said spell should be disallowed as it would allow mages and sorcerers to solo far more than anyone else. Well if we just drag in the low-magic world view it is obvious that they should be able to go places fighters wouldn’t even dare of going. It is how things are when a world is set in low-magic. As those without spell abilities cannot improve through powerful magical items they will not be able to keep up with magic users. So I ask this, why hit on those who actually play clever and use their spells and a skill to the maximum of what is possible, to me it somehow seems a bit odd."
Also wanted to state this, and another quote I saw earlier if I can find it... anyways, found it heh, I wanted both of them as they prove how hard it is for the GM team to make the desicion on whats priority and whats not. Your quote shows that you as a player think the "spellslingers" should still be made weaker still (correct me if I'm wrong). The other quote from Meitzer states; though, that through the many rules were making the "spellslingers" too weak which should not be the case for a low magic world.
In situations like these it becomes a conflict of interests, and as was said before, you cant possibly please everyone.
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I , as a "non-spellslinger" would like to see the classes more balanced.If that happens by weakening the "spellslingers"or by powering up the "non-spellslingers"is not something i'm qualified for to suggest realy.Ofcourse i'm biased towards the normal "non-spellslinger"way because i play one ;-)
The point is that players of "spellslinger"types can do more and therefor are NOT pushed into party and roleplay seems odd to me,i know a lot that do roleplay anyway,but also see a lot of them going out single and ravish a continent to get cnr's and gold unfortunatly.
I as a fighter have fleshed out the things i can get and the regoins i can handle on my own far too much i must admid,hence why i changed him from a adventuring type to a "benchwarmer"in Hlint.I changed my role from getting hard to get materials ,to one that shows new characters around and helping my friends as much as i can now. Because my character is polite and nice to be around( or i hope so) he makes easely contact with newcomers.Things will get different if you have a character that is a loner,it will get very frustrating and boring if you have one of those fast.
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My eyes hurt now.
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jan - 6/23/2006 2:29 PM
I , as a "non-spellslinger" would like to see the classes more balanced.If that happens by weakening the "spellslingers"or by powering up the "non-spellslingers"is not something i'm qualified for to suggest realy.Ofcourse i'm biased towards the normal "non-spellslinger"way because i play one ;-)
The point is that players of "spellslinger"types can do more and therefor are NOT pushed into party and roleplay seems odd to me,i know a lot that do roleplay anyway,but also see a lot of them going out single and ravish a continent to get cnr's and gold unfortunatly.
I as a fighter have fleshed out the things i can get and the regoins i can handle on my own far too much i must admid,hence why i changed him from a adventuring type to a "benchwarmer"in Hlint.I changed my role from getting hard to get materials ,to one that shows new characters around and helping my friends as much as i can now. Because my character is polite and nice to be around( or i hope so) he makes easely contact with newcomers.Things will get different if you have a character that is a loner,it will get very frustrating and boring if you have one of those fast.
Despite playing something of a spellslinger myself I have noticed this inequity as well and in my working spice up the challenges across the servers I have also taken to making some more balanced fights to bring the spellslingers in with the fighters. One example of which is giving certain creatures an on hit banishment that will send off the summons if it hits them thus making a good PC fighter a necessity. I've also been trying to make balanced parties of enemies including spellcasters, fighters, group leaders, ranged attackers etc. though I started on East to give those that are coming up to epic levels and beyond a place to go that still offers XP and challenge so many have probably not yet seen this type of creature.
This is not to say that I am working to cripple the spellcasters either as a balanced party includes them as well, but with a mix of monster types and abilities in the spawns it will require just that... a balanced party.
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On the subject of class balance... I understand that magic-wielding characters are simply more powerful, but DMs SHOULD be the ultimate equalizing agent.
Yet I still find myself more or less useless on quests because my character 1) cant' cast or heal, 2) hasn't gotten some godlike DM-granted power for whatever reason, or 3) isn't given the opportunity to be useful because there are epics or near-epics who can do anything and everything Pyyran can do, better.
It almost feels like I'm being punished for my class choice; I understand this isn't the case, but... It's terribly frustrating when you give it your all and still get less (reward, things to actually DO in the quest, etc) than someone who just ran through whatever as opposed to roleplaying thier character.
And no, I'm not going to give specific examples, because I don't want this to turn into an accusation-fest. I just want some input on the issues I mentioned.
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IceDragonDuvessa - 6/22/2006 7:41 PM
I've also been trying to make balanced parties of enemies including spellcasters, fighters, group leaders, ranged attackers etc.
*grins* This is probably the holy grail of NWN encounter building and as such is always really hard to achieve - It always seems whenever i have tried to make these encounters for a PW that you end with an encouter that destroys everyone in a party of level X, but a party of level Y stomps over the poor spawns as if they weren't there
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IceDragonDuvessa - 6/23/2006 8:41 PM
jan - 6/23/2006 2:29 PM
I , as a "non-spellslinger" would like to see the classes more balanced.If that happens by weakening the "spellslingers"or by powering up the "non-spellslingers"is not something i'm qualified for to suggest realy.Ofcourse i'm biased towards the normal "non-spellslinger"way because i play one ;-)
The point is that players of "spellslinger"types can do more and therefor are NOT pushed into party and roleplay seems odd to me,i know a lot that do roleplay anyway,but also see a lot of them going out single and ravish a continent to get cnr's and gold unfortunatly.
I as a fighter have fleshed out the things i can get and the regoins i can handle on my own far too much i must admid,hence why i changed him from a adventuring type to a "benchwarmer"in Hlint.I changed my role from getting hard to get materials ,to one that shows new characters around and helping my friends as much as i can now. Because my character is polite and nice to be around( or i hope so) he makes easely contact with newcomers.Things will get different if you have a character that is a loner,it will get very frustrating and boring if you have one of those fast.
Despite playing something of a spellslinger myself I have noticed this inequity as well and in my working spice up the challenges across the servers I have also taken to making some more balanced fights to bring the spellslingers in with the fighters. One example of which is giving certain creatures an on hit banishment that will send off the summons if it hits them thus making a good PC fighter a necessity. I've also been trying to make balanced parties of enemies including spellcasters, fighters, group leaders, ranged attackers etc. though I started on East to give those that are coming up to epic levels and beyond a place to go that still offers XP and challenge so many have probably not yet seen this type of creature.
This is not to say that I am working to cripple the spellcasters either as a balanced party includes them as well, but with a mix of monster types and abilities in the spawns it will require just that... a balanced party.
Thank you very much Ice,a very enlighting and in my case hopefull answer :D
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"On the subject of class balance... I understand that magic-wielding characters are simply more powerful, but DMs SHOULD be the ultimate equalizing agent."
This can very easily foster some of the feelings that we are trying to avoid though. By equalizing agent do you mean that GMs punish spellcasters so that they cannot do the things that other classes cannot? That is a slippery slope.
I truly believe that certain classes 'should' have more power than other classes. But only in certain areas. A spellcaster has strengths over a fighter. But a fighter has strengths over a caster. *shrugs* It goes back to what Ice is trying to do with the spawns and why I like this place so much to begin with. It takes a balanced party. Sure people can solo certain places and some better than others. The point is to get into a party though and go have fun.
"2) hasn't gotten some godlike DM-granted power for whatever reason"
What do you mean by this? I don't see everything obviously, but I have never seen a godlike DM-granted item anywhere.
3) isn't given the opportunity to be useful because there are epics or near-epics who can do anything and everything Pyyran can do, better.
So what if the epic can do it better. Try anyway. I cant tell you how many times there is a (near) epic on my quests and they have horrible rolls or on a tangent so far off that it isnt funny. I know when I play Owen, he has no regard whatsoever of epic, near epic, or just spit out of the dragon's mouth. People are people. Some deserve and by their very nature and RP, get respect, but they are just people. I always hate to see characters on my quests that defer to the epic because the *player* knows that they achieved a level over 20. It becomes a game of follow the epic. Epic does not mean that there is no one better or that they know everyting. Speak up. You cant help if you dont try.
Heh. I tangented off topic and then kinda came back on there at the end. I am in a post happy mood today though so watch out.
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Well said Regnus.
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I again wonder why specific cases are praised instead of being discussed with the DM responsible until it comes time to discuss it publically on the forums.
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weeeeeeeeeeee......... I have just now caught up on all this craziness (I'm in a transition time in my life and so keeping up with Layo has been sporadic at best), and I have to agree with Force- my eyes hurt...... think I've been reading posts (from just two threads) for literally two hours straight. I mean, actually reading... I normally just scan things.... anywho, just to touch on something Meizter mentioned about being around 'till the end of Layo.....
Yeah, old Milty's gonna be here in some form or fashion for as long as Layo exists. I'll try my best to give back and help the community. I chose to come to Layo, and I have chosen to stick with it, make it better, and have a good time in spite of everything that might possibly and actually have gone "wrong." I could blabber on more, but that's really the heart of it.
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Agreed, my eyes hurt. Lots of reading in there.
On broken classes, at the moment I haven't seen or heard much complaining about them. I have always wanted to play a spellsword, regardless if they are underpowered or not. I just don't have the time to get another character up to that point. As for the Skald, heh, I know a person who plays one pretty well. But he has never, not once complained about his skald abilities. Instead he's been grateful for the cool things it lets him do, and the fact that there are so few out there like his character. I firmly believe the idea that "You make your own good time." And if you are going to let a few problems with a class ruin that good time, so be it. But instead, look at the good things :)
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If mages were so powerful, how come they slum around town all day waiting for a dwarf with a shield to log on? :P On the flip-side, if Bjorn wants to go mining, he just marches out and does it. Mages have to waste a feat on a pickaxe and swing with pitiful little girly arms, despite his temporary boosts, heheheh. A dwarf in improved expertise with 2 dozen beasties all around him is more secure than a mage tiptoeing through kobolds with his invisibility about to fade.
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Agreed Lonnarin, and that is why Nobwocket makes sure to surround himself with fighters all the time. But I have done the solo thing a long time ago and it gets old after a while so I do appreciate what Ice is doing. It will make fighters also seek out the mages more as well as the opposite.
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with the past being the past ...
I will add this grain of sand to the lists of information of concerns
I do not play much on Layo because of real world events, but when I do find time, I truely feel like I will be retaliated against from one particular DM. So in general, "if you are not having fun, do not play"
Now before someone thinks this is an attack it is not!
It is a simple observation ... that just maybe ... others feel the same way ...
One question though ..
are some people interchanging the terms of balance and favortism?
meaning are some people thinking the way people are treated is not balanced and leans toward favortism ... in their opinions?
just something to think about
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What a shame Harloff wasn't there last night. Layo really showed herself as the best of PWs, with superbly written and run quests, great Rp and just soo much it was incredible.
Also hats off the code monkeys - No server crash. Outstanding
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blfarris - 6/24/2006 8:39 AM One question though .. are some people interchanging the terms of balance and favortism? meaning are some people thinking the way people are treated is not balanced and leans toward favortism ... in their opinions? just something to think about
I can't speak to how anyone else uses the term "balance". When the GM team uses the word "balance" however, it refers to trying to keep everything in the world fitting and working together as it should. Microscopically, it may look like something is over/underpowered, gives Group A a disproportionate advantage over Group B and so on. Macroscopically, however, we strive to have everything fit and make sense so that overall, the playing field is fairly level. We don't always get it right on the first try, or the second....or the third...and in some cases we're up against hard-coded bugs and features that we cannot always affect. But our goal when balancing is what I stated.
I'm not going to comment on favoritism. Too often the word has different meanings depending on one's perspective and perceptions.
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I would like to say a few things about class balance. If you wan't to be able to go soloing, then build an cleric or an spellsinger that have an strong summon and the world is yours. If you wan't to be the strongest hero in the party, then build an fighter based character.
As an example. Kilkenny is an lvl 20 cleric. He can go to most places on his own. I mean not many can do firesteep alone.. but he can. I don't take any pride in that.. its just what the Clerics/wizards/sorcs can do when they are lvl 20.
Boon is an lvl 14 fighter/wepon master. He woulden't last long on his own on Dregar. But when he is properly buffed from a cleric he is already in my opinion as strong as kilkenny are, although he is just lvl 14.
I can't speak for the two classes that are "known" to be broken. But instead of looking on how strong your class are when soloing. look how strong it is in a party fully buffed ;)
I mean take an Fighter lvl 12/weaponmaster lvl 8 as an example. Thoose who have seen one fully buffed from a cleric and hasted in action can't be serious if they say that spellcasters are alot stronger then fighters ;)
I have heard spellcaster characters complain as often as fighter based characters. Because they think that when they are in a party, all that they are good for is to buff the fighters and then haste them.. and then the fighters steal the show. So the coin always have an flip side.
in my eyes the classes are as well balanced as they can be. So its realy up to the players what kind of character they wan't to build.
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Short thing on classes: (Just my view of it)
When And only if, maybe, possible... there will be a wipe. Team - try to balance the spelsingers as well (like the paladin). Just an idea. Reason:
When I hear the word fantasy I mostly think of "Willow" and "lord of the rings". How many spellsingers are there in those movies vs. fighters, archers etc.
My idea for the furtures is:
Dont balance the classes. Let mage,cleric be ... powerful spellsingers...but balance the number of them. Just an idea - which can only be done much much later..
New thing:
Classes that dont work probably...well - an idea...
Close those classes and give the ones playing them a chance to chance them because...
"Dont sell a pack which does not work. It only gives sad customers"....but dont skip it either - judt put it on the shelf and fix it when there is time.
PS: Dont see this as an attack - but a straight and short notice (point of view) before varka here goes out of the door and moves to "ROSKILDE FESTIVAL" to party for a weel!!!!!!!!!!!
Have fun and keep layo safe............Team and player................ GOOD JOB THERE.....AAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL OF YOU *closes the computer opens a bottle of ale - vacation* ;)
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I actually think that's an interesting idea. If you restrict the number of wizards, sorcerers and even clerics (to a point cause I likes me clerics), it would probably force players to pick up new and inventive characters. Rogues perhaps? We don't have enough rogues... never have. Same with monks. Bards too to be honest.
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ZeroVega - 6/26/2006 1:14 PM
I actually think that's an interesting idea. If you restrict the number of wizards, sorcerers and even clerics (to a point cause I likes me clerics), it would probably force players to pick up new and inventive characters. Rogues perhaps? We don't have enough rogues... never have. Same with monks. Bards too to be honest.
Also druids!! Where are the tree-huggers when you need 'em!?
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A few points on class balance:
First, Layonara is not designed for soloing. Yes, it can be done in places, and one's class and level tends to determine what those places are. I personally disagree with the mindset of picking a spellcaster because of the summons and power at a given level. My own character is a sorc/fighter mix who doesn't use anything but a "shadow" summons, which really is not a summons at all and certainly not something that enables him to solo with little or no risk. But that's how I RP him.
Layonara works best when parties are formed with a diversity of classes. I think this past weekend's plot finale quests were a perfect example of that. I'm not sure about the other groups, but for our group, the task would have been impossible without a mix of strong fighters and archers to deliver the damege, clerics to protect, heal and tend to the dead, rogues to handle traps, locks and other roguey things, and mages to strengthen the party and weaken the enemy.
In a sense, limiting one class or another to some arbitrary number doesn't necessarily make sense, as a good rounded party should have perhaps at least one mage, one cleric, one rogue, and several up-front battle types, be they fighters (or some variant). druids or monks. Having a archer along is good as well. Though we could always do what we have done with racial types and that is when too many people are submitting for them, we close them temporariy.
Lastly, as we move to using NWN2 in the near future, the GM team is going to be taking a look at EVERYTHING and trying to design the game with playability and balance from level 1 through level 40, even though we won't be able to get past level 20 in the initial release of the game. We're trying to build this in from Day 1, rather than go back and try to fix it after the fact.
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That's why you rock Dorg.
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ZeroVega - 6/26/2006 2:14 AM
I actually think that's an interesting idea. If you restrict the number of wizards, sorcerers and even clerics (to a point cause I likes me clerics), it would probably force players to pick up new and inventive characters. Rogues perhaps? We don't have enough rogues... never have. Same with monks. Bards too to be honest.
I tried to keep up with this topic, the replies however was too great, so Im sorry if this already have been mentoined.
My char is half rogue, and the only advantage of that is sneak attack. Layo has a BIG lack of traps and locks. Layo generally fullfill what I expect of a dnd universe, or roleplaying universe, except the sentence: "deep dungeons filled with monsters and deadly traps." There are two dungeons I can come up with that have traps, Storans and Krandor Crypts. And when I found these I had given up using skill points in those skills! Traps dont necessarily have to be advanced constructions, but could also be simple snares in any monsterfilled cave. Its only fair the rouges got something to do. Should a fighter class not be able to find one, they can just walk through, they are made to take damage anyway.
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Quests. Need rogues. Badly.
There are other places with traps also, and generally the mechanical benefit of the sneak attacks and extra skills are all anybody takes the rogue class for, anyway. Heh.
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Niles09 - 6/26/2006 7:07 PM
Layo has a BIG lack of traps and locks. Layo generally fullfill what I expect of a dnd universe, or roleplaying universe, except the sentence: "deep dungeons filled with monsters and deadly traps." There are two dungeons I can come up with that have traps, Storans and Krandor Crypts.
That's so not true... i'm afraid you'd need some more levels, and/or more high-level people to take you on a trip for some nasty dungeons out there. :)
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My eyes are sore -- too much reading to do... I even skipped like two to four posts, took a brake to eat...
I couldn't exactly tell there was a rift between the community leaders (GM teams) and the community's base followers until it was pointed out...
It seems that being oblivious I have missed out on many things, even though I have my periods of long silence. (I now feel funny :P )
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FlameStrike - 6/26/2006 8:16 AM
Niles09 - 6/26/2006 7:07 PM
Layo has a BIG lack of traps and locks. Layo generally fullfill what I expect of a dnd universe, or roleplaying universe, except the sentence: "deep dungeons filled with monsters and deadly traps." There are two dungeons I can come up with that have traps, Storans and Krandor Crypts.
That's so not true... i'm afraid you'd need some more levels, and/or more high-level people to take you on a trip for some nasty dungeons out there. :)
Year thats another problem. Some of us level slower than you would think possible. Ive been in here in a year. I dont like speeding around finding the bests place to get xp, (Because of school I can rarely go on quests) or finding some really strong people to take me to a place where Im of absolutly no use. Ive actually played here for over a year.
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That's so not true... i'm afraid you'd need some more levels, and/or more high-level people to take you on a trip for some nasty dungeons out there.
I think that actually makes the point. If all the rogue skills aren't useful until you either go on a quest or become 15th level and travel with a large, high level group to a formidible dungeon, then there is a balancing issue here. There is a shortage of opportunities for rogues to use their skills. Can you imagine telling a mage "You can only use magic from 3 schools unless on a quest or when you hit high level?"
For NWN2 Layo, I think a few more traps and locks would be nice. That's all. Request made. I'll leave it to the pros now.
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Hold on a moment here....
Rogue skills are not the same as casting spells. Similar, but not the same. A better comparison would be to compare skills. Casting of spells is more akin to a rogue's sneak attack.
For example, outside of quests, a wizard or sorcerer (or any spellcaster) can't really use the Spellcraft skill to its fullest potential. Lore isn't used much except to identify the odd item or two; it's capable of so much more.
Rogues can use Hide/Move Silently a lot when they're not on quests. They can also make a lot of use of Use Magic Device. Pickpocketing is of course not permitted except on quests.
And lastly, it's important to know that there are in fact traps and locks all over the place that aren't in dungeons which are specifically placed to give rogues a means to apply their skills. I can think of at least three places in Hlint alone. And there are several others in towns and cities all over Layonara.
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I think that could be an idea to be honest, to restrict the caster numbers in some way. I just checked the server status, and on all three servers there are currently 47 players, 25 of those are wizards/sorcerors/clerics with most of them being the latter two.
Maybe there shouldn't be an upper limit on the amount of casters approved, but I think the idea of limiting them in the same way as racial restrictions could be a good idea, or possibly worked out in a ratio of casters vs other classes (I say "other classes" rather than fighters because that would ensure that the caster numbers would remain higher than they would if it was casters vs fighters).
Clerics could be different again, maybe with numbers restricting the amount of Clerics PCs that can be approved for anyone religion at a time, with those numbers varying depending on the deities. Obviously deities such as Lucinda and Toran may have a good number, whereas more "underground" clergies such as Corath or Baraeon Ca'Duz could be limited to less than a handful. Though that may not be a neccessary enforcement, I only know one person to ever play a Cleric of Ca'duz (that was me) and Corath clerics are restricted due to the alignment thing anyway. Maybe the cleric numbers could somehow be affected by the temple donations even, which would be another incentive for people to keep their donations coming in.
Just a thought though :)
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Actually, I played a Cleric of Ca'duz for a bit and I believe since drow society revolves so closely around their religion and so many drow strive to be clerics of their deitys (and the fact that there are very few of them) would actually make them one of the more "open" religions. I'm sure if it ever becomes apparent that certain classes are being chosen over others, not for their RP ability or because of the connection they have with a certain character they will cease to be approved for a while. It happened for a few months when the Fighter/Rogue combo started popping up every other day in the submissions forum. We eventually had to say, "Pick one or the other and if you find you want to multiclass in the future you can work toward it."
ZV-
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ZeroVega - 6/26/2006 1:27 PM
I believe since drow society revolves so closely around their religion and so many drow strive to be clerics of their deitys (and the fact that there are very few of them) would actually make them one of the more "open" religions.
That's true, but would there need to be that many of those clerics sent to the surface at any one time? Unless it's an invasion situation (which obviously wouldn't be played by PCs) I don't imagine there would be a need for a great number of Ca'duz clerics to be above the surface.
I think that would be more of a reason for restricting them, though like I said before, there aren't enough applications for those anyway for it to become much of an issue. Including yourself I still only know two of us who have played them for any amount of time in the last 18months or so, but I could be wrong?
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Dorganath - 6/26/2006 2:04 PM Hold on a moment here....
Rogue skills are not the same as casting spells. Similar, but not the same. A better comparison would be to compare skills. Casting of spells is more akin to a rogue's sneak attack.
True, rogue skills aren't the same as spells. But the comparison is fair, because a mage character grows in strength through getting more and better spells. The rogue improves through getting more and better skills. It's a skills based character. If it weren't for sneak attack, skills would be the only signficant way a rogue improved. A rogue would pick up more hit points, like all other classes, a feat now and then, like other classes, better attack bonus, like other classes. The only thing that makes a rogue special is the skills. For example, outside of quests, a wizard or sorcerer (or any spellcaster) can't really use the Spellcraft skill to its fullest potential.
Not to its full potential, but it can be used. The engine automatically uses it for identifying the spells others cast. It can also be used when counterspelling. And again, it's a very, very tiny part of the class. If Bioware removed Spellcraft from the game, would it alter things significantly? Would people stop playing mages/sorcerers? No, because the class strength would still be there. Would druids stop being druids if Animal Empathy was removed? No, because druids would still have their strengths. Would people think twice about being bards if perform were removed? Probably, because Bard Song is a core strength of the class. Not everything, but a big part. Rogues can use Hide/Move Silently a lot when they're not on quests. They can also make a lot of use of Use Magic Device. Pickpocketing is of course not permitted except on quests.
Out of the 11 skills which are somewhat unique to or favored by rogues, 5 are quest or role-play only (Appraise, Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade, Pick Pocket), 4 are usable skills (Hide/Move Silently, UMD, Set Trap). That leaves 2 -- Open Lock, Disable Trap. A rogue, out and about on a typical day of adventuring, can only use 4/11 skills (except in role play with other players) unless there are locks and traps. 4 skills/11 total = 0.364, 3 schools of magic / 8 total = 0.375. A good roleplay class, but a little weak out adventuring. I guess it all comes down to how heavily one weights sneak attack. If sneak attack is mostly what being a rogue is all about, then this really doesn't apply. And sneak attack in NWN is quite powerful. Not so much that I'd compare it alone to a wizard's spells, but still powerful. And lastly, it's important to know that there are in fact traps and locks all over the place that aren't in dungeons which are specifically placed to give rogues a means to apply their skills. I can think of at least three places in Hlint alone. And there are several others in towns and cities all over Layonara.
This is interesting. I've encountered a few of these and went through this thought process, "Hey look, a locked door. I bet I could get through that. I wonder what's on the other side? I'll just pick this lock and " A loud voice breaks in right here and says, "Wait, this seems like a violation of server rules. Will I, the player, get in trouble for this? Is it worth the risk? No, not really." At this point, my character slinks away from the door. Maybe I'll give it a try now. Thanks for this tidbit.
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If its a player lock, you can't pick it anyway. If its not, then it is much more of an in-character decision. Should your character really be breaking and entering, or is it just the player? And is it broad daylight with people everywhere? That kind of thing.
(Not making assumptions for -your- character, just cringing inwardly in memory of official campaign murder and pillaging by the paladins and so forth. :P )
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Alrighty, well, Spellcraft is a HUGE part of a wizard/sorc's skillset (as they really only have like 5 class skills, one of which is Heal) especially on quests.
I would go so far as to say that most skills in the game for all classes do not reach their full bloom except on quests. The fact is that a CRPG does not really capture the essence and spirit of most skills except with GM intervention. And again...comparing a school of magic to a skill just isn't valid comparison.
SquareKnot - 6/26/2006 5:20 PM This is interesting. I've encountered a few of these and went through this thought process, "Hey look, a locked door. I bet I could get through that. I wonder what's on the other side? I'll just pick this lock and " A loud voice breaks in right here and says, "Wait, this seems like a violation of server rules. Will I, the player, get in trouble for this? Is it worth the risk? No, not really." At this point, my character slinks away from the door. Maybe I'll give it a try now. Thanks for this tidbit.
I appreciate your tendancy toward caution regarding what is/is not against the rules. The rule is simple though...and partly enforced by game mechanics. Any door with a conversation is probably not one you should attempt to enter without a key or an invitation...the Leilon Arms being an exception...as they belong to players. At the same time, these doors cannot be picked by any rogue on the server, as the DCs are far too high. However, if there is a door, that can be picked, perhaps it has a trap that can be disabled, these are there for rogues to practice and use their skills. And as I said before, they are all over the place.
So I guess the point here is that the perceived class imbalance is perhaps not as large as you think, or may not really exist at all. One could argue that a fighter gets to use a lot more skills when not on a quest than anyone else. *shrugs*
Balance is a big picture thing, not an "X vs. Y" thing.
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So far I know there is one trap in the ratman place. And that is only one in a whole dungeon. If you're talking about the house next to the bind stone, I was told it was banable to break in by a GM. Zan wouldnt do that anyway.
Im not talking about dungeons with one or two traps, but dungeons filled with traps. Anyone who have played, BG, NWN campaigns, Morrowind or Oblivion would now what I mean, and now it is only fair.
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Warning! It's late, this post IS too long, I have repeated things several times in it, it may be boring, you may simply want to skip it. Thank you.
Heh, there is a dungeon on East that has, I would say, one to two dozen traps on every level (no joking). It is a higher level place of course, which is, as you pointed out, what makes it difficult to play a rogue but they're there. Also you (SquareKnot) compare rogues to wizards which I simply cannot do. Wizards are a torrent of power. They can solo better than many classes, that is true. In a well rounded party though wizards are possibly the LEAST valuable characters (at least on Layonara).
Look at it like this... once you hit level 10, fighters are dishing out as much damage per round as a wizard is. They're holding off the enemy and holding the font line. Clerics heal, summon, cast killer spells and can melee better than every class (except perhaps Paladins). Bards have their song, their RP ability which can greatly liven up any adventure, their lore and spellcraft skills and spells (though not as many) which honestly covers the wizard. With the exception of some special spells that paralyze, instant death spells or damage spells (the latter of the two which are mostly useless in well rounded groups), all of the things that a wizard can do can be covered by a bard or cleric.
In contrast a rogue has something that no other class has, and that is invaluable skills and LOTS of them. If you went to the Dungeon of Scarabs without a rogue, I will tell you right now, you're probably not coming out. Only rangers can be better scouts than rogues (honestly) and most truly don't come close. No class can disable traps as well. Negotiators? If you don't have a bard it's gotta be a rogue. Pick lock? Well, I've seen it used on many occasions. You can't get into several dungeons without it (a few of them on West as well). And last, sneak attack is (in my opinion) the most powerful feat in NwN. With anywhere from three to four attacks per round and good positioning, no class can deal equivilent damage.
I marveled once at how powerful the spell was. It was back in B4 I believe and I was on a quest with Lue and Gotak (just naming them for the sake of the story). We were fighting a balor and when we had killed it I looked back at the log. Gotak had dealt very little damage by his standards (3-7), but Lue had dealt into the 20s. I was shocked and wondered how this happens so I asked the player how he got the magical weapons. He replied that it was a normal sling he was using but his sneak attack did so much damage that the DR of the Balor couldn't stop it all.
Let's face it. Wizards and Clerics are the most powerful solo classes in NwN, but in a group, no class (other than Cleric at best) is more valuable (in essence, they're a support class, like Bards). There are even places that it is simply physically impossible to get to without a rogue. It's not as if it'd be dangerous without a rogue, it just can't be gotten to... end of story.
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'tis ture, each class has its advantages. If you want to know them, look in the NWN manual, or the D&D Player's Handbook.
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I would go so far as to say that most skills in the game for all classes do not reach their full bloom except on quests. The fact is that a CRPG does not really capture the essence and spirit of most skills except with GM intervention.
This is my point, and then I'll be quiet:
Most classes get their strength from something that is handled well by the NWN engine. Like say, spells or combat. Rogues, on the other hand, get their strength from skills (and sneak attack, a point I conceded early on). The NWN engine doesn't handle skills well. So as NWN2 Layo is designed, please consider giving lower level rogues a few more opportunities to use the skills that the engine does handle well (traps and locks), so they can feel useful to their parties and have a moment to shine.
End of point.
I'm sincerely sorry this got turned into a "this class is better than that class" or "this class is best for soloing" or "all classes have their place" or "there are too traps in Layonara" discussion.
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The rouges disable trap and open lock are core skills, and they can be handled by the system outside quests. That there are one dungeon that are filled with traps does not make up for all those who aint, and its just not ok that you need to raise in lvl to be there. So far everytime Ive brought up that for some of us, lvl 8-12 is extremly slow, everyone says I should join a powerplay server, cause its not about the xp. And again, I havent tried a roleplay other than this, where nearly every dungeon at least have a few traps.
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I know what Pyrean means. My character is almost Level 10, and doesnt even have cleave yet. The reason being, Sallaron was never meant to be a great fighter. I made that decision early in the game, and although I regret it, seeing other Lvl 10s annihilate things which might have annihilated me, I still wouldnt change it. Thats how my character should be.
As for the whole "problems with Layo" part. Bah.
For us, the server is free. Playing the game is free. Joining GM quests and such is free.
If anyone feels its difficult to get onto GM quests, they must be in a rare timezone. I havent been here long and have been on quite a few.
Ive never had a single problem with any GM ( except for Caliban throwing me to the back of the XP line. *grins*), and whenever Ive had a problem ingame theyve helped, sometimes in record-breaking 15seconds after the post time.
I used to have this idea of the GM team sat in an office in Bioware studios, churning out ideas and being paid. This of course, is not the case. I would like to thank each and everyone for the time they have put into Gm quests, simply so that people like me and you can have great adventures and fun times....
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LordCove - 6/27/2006 12:20 AM
As for the whole "problems with Layo" part. Bah.
For us, the server is free. Playing the game is free. Joining GM quests and such is free.
If anyone feels its difficult to get onto GM quests, they must be in a rare timezone. I havent been here long and have been on quite a few.
Ive never had a single problem with any GM ( except for Caliban throwing me to the back of the XP line. *grins*), and whenever Ive had a problem ingame theyve helped, sometimes in record-breaking 15seconds after the post time.
I used to have this idea of the GM team sat in an office in Bioware studios, churning out ideas and being paid. This of course, is not the case. I would like to thank each and everyone for the time they have put into Gm quests, simply so that people like me and you can have great adventures and fun times....
Which doesnt means we cant do our best to make this place better. One thing I know is, when Im making something, a drawing maybe, Im happy for feedback in the creationprocess so I can improve it, Im not a GM ofcourse, but so far I could understand this post was made for contructive critism that would help making the world better. In the end, its still completly up to the GM's.
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I'd just like to raise my voice in favour of a few more surreptitious traps. Surreptitious, and deadly, for preference. The point was well made that most tanks can just walk through traps and take the hit without significant effect. I'd like to see more Indiana Jones (or Tomb of Horrors) -style locations, where if someone goes in singing and kicking down doors in bright shiny armour (not naming any names here), they get hit by a Powerword Splat! trap. Scything blades, poison darts, rooms that seal and slowly fill with water....
In addition to adding a little more by way of teeth to the underpowered trap system in NWN, it would give the Rogue/Scout a little more respect.
Regardless, this is just a personal suggestion. I enjoy Layo immensely, with or without that addition.
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Traps like there were in Oriax would be nice. It would make the rogue more valuable in party play and keep parties closer together when not on a quest. Problem being with the stability of the server steadily increasing that once dis-armed they are gone till next reset.
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Put a reset timer on the traps. I really, really want to see more traps and locks in Layonara. Okay, so there's three or four traps/locks in Hlint. Sure. Okay, I'll go with that - I've only found two, but hey. There's the Hlint Crypts - great for the low-level fighter, cleric, paladin... Excellent places for anyone with turn undead to flex thier class' muscles. Hlint Sewers, good for those woodsy types with animal empathy. But... In the Crypts, Rogues are useless. The whole undead not having vital areas thing. There are no traps, no locks, and nothing to Sneak Attack. They're about as useful as a Brownie Fighter with a focus in Archery. In the sewers, well... You can Sneak Attack, but if you HIT anything, it dies. No need for it except against our lovely Ratman. Seeing a small XP reward for disarming a trap would be nice, too. What good is "practice" if you're not learning anything? You get XP for killing something. You get gold for killing something. How different is that from recovering a trap and getting a little bit of XP, plus the trap? Besides, let's see some more usefulness for Improved Evasion.
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 6/27/2006 5:43 AM Put a reset timer on the traps. I really, really want to see more traps and locks in Layonara. Okay, so there's three or four traps/locks in Hlint. Sure. Okay, I'll go with that - I've only found two, but hey. There's the Hlint Crypts - great for the low-level fighter, cleric, paladin... Excellent places for anyone with turn undead to flex thier class' muscles. Hlint Sewers, good for those woodsy types with animal empathy. But... In the Crypts, Rogues are useless. The whole undead not having vital areas thing. There are no traps, no locks, and nothing to Sneak Attack. They're about as useful as a Brownie Fighter with a focus in Archery. In the sewers, well... You can Sneak Attack, but if you HIT anything, it dies. No need for it except against our lovely Ratman. Seeing a small XP reward for disarming a trap would be nice, too. What good is "practice" if you're not learning anything? You get XP for killing something. You get gold for killing something. How different is that from recovering a trap and getting a little bit of XP, plus the trap? Besides, let's see some more usefulness for Improved Evasion.
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I would like to see the current persistant quests and some of the merchants use the persuade skill in their conversation trees more. Like maybe you try to buy a crafter's certification, and if you hit a persuade check of 15-20, he discounts the price a bit... or if you collect all the items for a quest and have a 2nd option to persuade more gp reward out of the NPC. So far the only instance of this I found is Garvill's Oxen discount. Perhaps also use some of these wandering NPCs like Fing and Erbag in the bar to drop hints about areas and current events on a successful persuade check. One of them can leak where a good batch of hops is, another can talk about the day the dark clouds came, etc.
It would also be funny to see somebody walk up to Johan and make their bluff check... But I already HAVE brought you two of those pelts! heheh.
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Niles09 - 6/27/2006 10:51 AM exactly! Traps shouldnt be something you look around to find, but something thats just is there.
Oh man...I'm growing pretty tired of saying this.
There are traps available for practice by rogues in game. By definition, you have to find ALL traps. I don't really know what you mean by "something that just is there". Traps will be on doors, on chests, on sections of floor between you and a special location.
Maybe there could be more...maybe we could improve them. A lot of maybes, but the point is that there are opportunities. Seek them out.....please.
And yes.....we will be taking a look at EVERYTHING for NWN2.
And lastly, please put this topic back on track.
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what I mean is, first I go to the sewers, one trap and a lock, then the crypts in Hlint, no traps or locks, red light cave, no traps or locks, Sielwood cave, no traps or locks, Krandor Crypts, yupii! traps and locks, but first then. All of those places should have 3 or 4 traps, though only two of them actually have a few. It shouldnt be like; "I want to go and dissable some traps, so I need to go to Storans or Krandor crypts."
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Last time...
There ARE traps and locks in Hlint that are NOT in the crypts or sewers. Likewise, similar things exist in other towns and cities all over Layonara and in varying degrees of difficulty.
I really cannot be any clearer than that.
Now PLEASE put this thread back on-topic.
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Dorganath - 6/27/2006 7:36 AM Last time...
There ARE traps and locks in Hlint that are NOT in the crypts or sewers. Likewise, similar things exist in other towns and cities all over Layonara and in varying degrees of difficulty.
I really cannot be any clearer than that.
Now PLEASE put this thread back on-topic.
If you've read Stephen's post you should know why its a problem there is no traps in the crypts or sewers, and for the last time its not enough every tree dungeon has one or two traps and this thread is on-topic, making this game a better experience.
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Seriously. Niles09, how many dungeons have you visited? You are speaking of the Hlint sewer and the crypts? Those 2 only? Explore and you will find your traps and locked doors.
Besides, it does not make sense that there are traps in some dungeons. Why would there be traps in the Hlint sewer or the crypts? The crypts are basically an extension of the graveyard and are still being maintained and used by people. The same goes for the sewer. Why would someone place traps in there? There is nothing to guard or keep safe - no reason to block people from entering. And the undead or wererats would not set traps, would they.
So let us move on from this subject. Talk to people and you'll learn that there are traps out there. Some nasty ones at that. :)
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Rule #1, Niles - don't antagonize the DM. Especially one who puts as much time into Layo development as Dorganath.
Second, since this has become a small fixation, I've created a Development thread (http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=27378&posts=1#M172873) that deals with the whole trap issue. That'll hopefully get this thread back on topic, while allowing this interesting topic to continue in its proper place.
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darkstorme - 6/27/2006 3:10 PM Rule #1, Niles - don't antagonize the DM. Especially one who puts as much time into Layo development as Dorganath.
As much as I appreciate your support, this comment does sort of perpetuate the idea that players should fear retribution from GMs, which is untrue and undesired. It's ironically one of the points in Harloff's post and something we really need to move away from.
I believe there was some barrier there which we could not get over, be it a barrier of language or understanding. In either case, what is being requested is, at least in some manner, already in the game. Some people may not ultimately agree with the way it has been implemented or the quantity and/or placement of the challenges, but they are there and have been there for a very long time.
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My apologies - it was not meant as perpetuation of the stereotype, more along the lines of "request, don't attack". And certainly, while no GM would use "grudge monsters" on Layo, the way to get a developer to look at your idea is not to keep hammering it into them.