Power builds.

[Hellblazer]

@redhawk shhhss thats coming hehe

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Chnmmr - 12/13/2006  8:18 PM

Well thats unfortunate... you pick a class you should rp it.  If you play a cleric then don't rp the faith, you are not a cleric but a fighter with spells.

I'd have to disagree with that, to a point. (Devil's advocate and all that.)

There are quite a few characters who don't openly display their faith for IN CHARACTER reasons.

Likewise, there are a number of people who just don't bother playing the faith, but... They are a minority (or at least, I'd like to think so).

As to why noone uses deity-related battle cries? Heheheh. I don't have the quickslots to spare, nor can I type that quickly.

[Zelda1]

Chongo - 12/13/2006  7:44 PM
Anyone disputing this has gotten too used to pointing fingers.

Try this link. Smeesh. This is why I refrain from ranting on Layo. The End.

[Vyris]

Redhawk - 12/13/2006  6:07 PM

Faith is a hard thing to RP and not many do it well, and more often than not, RP'ing faith properly makes for a very difficult time on a server where party play is the way to go.

Trust me, preaching to the choir there. I've gotten Berdin painted into such an RP corner playing his faith (correctly as I see it) that he either dislikes someone, or someone that that someone wants to bring along. Vorax dislikes just about everyone. Vorax hates you twice if your a mage and a worshiper of someone he dislikes. I often have Voraxian fighter envy, because imho the strictest Vorax dogma doesn't completely apply to them, So while a dwarven fighter who pays homage to Vorax might find am RP'able reason to make friends with an A'zatan cleric or a wizard, Berdin never would be able to and remain true to his faith.

And... I'd put my money on the level 20 cleric vs any powerbuilds at 20 total levels, especially if they started the dual at 40 yards

Vyris

[Rayenoir]

Chnmmr - 12/13/2006  8:18 PM

Well thats unfortunate... you pick a class you should rp it.  If you play a cleric then don't rp the faith, you are not a cleric but a fighter with spells.

Not every cleric has to mindlessly preach constantly.  Some clerics may prefer to have a more personal, direct contact with their deity rather than mouthing off at all times.  It may look to you like they're not RPing the faith, but are you with their character constantly?  One-dimensional cleric-playing is sad and not beneficial.  One-dimensional playing of any class is questionable.

[Acacea]

"Preaching by example."

[Polak76]

Vyris - 12/14/2006  8:32 AM

Chnmmr - 12/13/2006  4:12 PM

I'm curious about something.  This server is obviously against powerbuilds so why does it allow the obviously powerbuild Cleric 15 figher 5?

And another thing I'm curious about, why on earth do mages have the Tenser's transformation spell?  Where is the sense on giving a mage who's disadvantage is supposed to be lack of melee pressence with a spell that turns them into a fighter with mage buffs ontop of that?

Two things I've always wondered and would really like to see people's views on this.

Theres a lot worse power builds out there than cleric/fighter.

Ranger/rogue/weaponmaster springs to mind.

Vyris

Edit: I also wanted to say I agree with 8-bit on the RP justifying the classes, that should be paramount anyway, not that with class X you'll be capable of Y more points of damage per round. One sure way to remove any fun from the game or completely abandon RP is to start boiling characters down to numbers.

Heh...even better Cleric/Rogue.

And to top that off Cleric/Figher/Rogue - Oh the memories of Sabel. Able to kill stuff at lvl 10 that I couldn't do at lvl 15.

[Eight-Bit]

Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 8:18 PM Well thats unfortunate... you pick a class you should rp it. If you play a cleric then don't rp the faith, you are not a cleric but a fighter with spells.

 I want you to do me a favor and stop, take a step back from point fingers and making unbased claims, and think for a moment. A Cleric, is by default, a devoted servent to a single God or Goddess. These Clerics then are tasked with preforming the duties of said God or Goddess. Clerics can be powerful warriors, and Clerics are impressive assets to any party. Clerics are, however, bound by the laws of their diety and thus will never have the freedom that any other class (Aside from say, perhaps a Paladin) in the way they act. They are expected to be the truest example of their diety, and to take on the aspects of said diety.
  You are making a lot claims here, even in the single quote I have above here. I am a player of two Clerics, and these two Clerics are followers of evil Gods. If I were to roleplay my faith openly, I would be burned for a Corathite, and chased off as a Branderbacker. By not openly expressing either of their faiths I AM in fact roleplaying my class.
  I will impose a hypothetical here, but I am really loosing interest in this subject. A Cleric of Toran is a stoic and kind man. He fights well, he carries on the party, and never denies healing. He never speaks a word of his faith, because as a wise man, he knows that the example of his actions will have a deeper effect that explaing how wonderful and grand Toran is. I want you to consider an alternative before you start saying such biased comments about Clerics. I will, however, admit there are followers who are not perfect. We are a mixed group of roleplayers, and some are quite new to this.
  I am going to step out of this discussion now. I want everyone to know that this recent trend of finger-pointing and complaint is something that only takes a community apart. Instead of saying:
 

Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 6:31 PM I'd really have no trouble seeing fighter clerics if the person roleplayed a cleric. I never see clerics use their dieties name in conversation, in battle calls or anything. Generally I can never tell if someone is a cleric untill they cast their spells, and even then can never tell what faith they are. Most clerics seem to come from a general mold.

 We should compliment those who do roleplay their characters well. We're a community first. I want everyone to try and remember that.

[Kiba]

Dont even know why I decided to reply....


But to the comment that reducing our charectors to numbers detracts from the fun of the game...  Personaly I rather like numbers, and manipulating numbers in an equation (e.g. the equation of witch the sum total equals what NWN sees as youre char) to best suit how I like to enjoy my gaming experience, within the rules of the server of course.  But I get some strange sence of satisfaction from tweaking everything I can reasonably tweak to achieve this goal.  


For me this is the Yin the my roleplaying Yang, so to speak...

[Chnmmr]

So essentially, anything goes if you can roleplay it.  Good to know....

*plans a monk druid*

I'm done here too, thank you to those who actually replied to my questions and didn't.  Please understand I'm not finger pointing as such, I'm just finding it a trend that in every rp server I've come across there are people who -will- power build and do things that are not in the spirit of the server, and yet people will still defend them because of 'community'.  Community is all well and good but when the server starts to comprise mostly of cleric/fighters and mages because of their known strength rather than roleplay potential?  -That- is when the community should start to worry.

Much the same as sub-races were locked to maintain world balance, sometimes one needs to consider locking a class that has gotten way out of hand.

One roleplay server I was on had such a problem.  It got so bad that eventually over 90% of the server were Werewolves/werecats/Vampire/Demons/Devils with rogue levels to max out tumble and UMD.  For the sake of 'community' the staff their did nothing to curb this untill alot of the good aligned PCs actually -left- the server (me included) because they were no longer having fun when their paladins/druids/city guard were being captured/tortured/killed at least 2 times a day.

So I say this.  Think of the community when you make these solo capable builds.  Think of the community when your once fragile mage flashes around that Tenser spell making the fighter obsolete in the party.  Think of your diety when you act and cast spells.  Think of the damage your powerbuilds cause to the server and the people in it, why?  Because powerbuilds -do- damage a server whether people want to believe it or not.  I've seen it time and time again on the many roleplay servers I've left.  There's always that one Shifter/druid/monk or RDD/sorc/Paladin or Wiz/Pale/Fighter etc that makes it through the cracks under the pretence of roleplay and then does so much damage to the server.

..... ok I'm really done now *blushes*

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Tenser's no more makes a Fighter obsolete than those pixies make Rogues obsolete.

Which is to say, to a degree, they do, but they're not NEARLY as effective overall. And a lot less fun.

[Hellblazer]

Chnmmr,
  You know my other character called Rain, his a Ranger/wizzard. he has this spell that is called Polymorph self, basicaly he can morphed into trolls, or umberhulk that gives 23 str, 14 dex 23 con etc, with a regenerative to the troll. Now to my sence this is a  more effective spell than tenser's transfromation. I could be wrong, but the troll woud make a better fighter than the other one, yet you don't frown on it. It also has the same draw back though, you lose your memorised spells and must learn them back. And this is why I am not using it.
  The thing is, these are giving to us by the team and also by bioware who made this game based on the dnd rules set. It is there in the book, the rules, and the options.
  You also have to think of one thing, when you take Omer for instance that has this spell, he only has a 27 hit point and is a lvl 12, the spell will give him a 1d6 to constitution per level so he gain about 12 to 15 hit points essentialy.  Now take a fighter from the same level, they will have a lot more strenght and a lot more hit point than any mage where there stats do not provide the opportunity for that.
  So what ever you may think about that spell, and How ever good I like Omer as a char, if you give me him to fight up front with that spell or a fighter, I would chose the fighter, because I know the fighter will be at his best up front.
  beside if we are following your mind set, the cleric should be ban outright. Just think of it, Stone skin, Hammer of god, sumons lvl 9 if they go to lvl 28 clerics, and a myriad of other spells that give them bonuses to their str and other things. You dont need to take 5 lvl in fighter to see that Cleric where thought up as posible fronters with their spells and possibe solo travelers from city to city to go provide their aid to who ever needs it with that kind of sumouns that will last 5 turn per level caster.

[Gilrod]

The way I look at it, mixing levels is not really a "powerbuild" at all given the server rules requiring 5 levels.

The powerbuilds possible in NWN are because of "favored class" rules allowing a human or dwarf cleric to pick up one level of fighter for the bonus feats ONLY to gain feats that a cleric couldn't, or a halfling or human cleric picking up 1-2 levels of thief to gain theif class skills only.

The truth is, a 15 level cleric might not fight as well as a 10th level cleric/5th level fighter, but as Vyris said, the "pure" Cleric is still a more powerful cleric.  It is just a trade off of versality versus pure class power.  The server rules keep people from unfairly capitalizing on the "versality" side by picking up just one or two levels to be pretty powerful in their major class and still versital by picking up the large number of skills offered by the FIRST level of another class.  The server rules force an investment into the second class at the expense of "power" in the first class.

What most would call a "powerbuild" I call a trade-off.  The server rules force that this "tradeoff" for versitality actually have a commensorate cost in pure class power.

Without the 5 level rule, this trade-off would be one sided, but L and the team's rule, in my opinion, strikes a fair balance.

If you want the versitility of a 15th level cleric and a 5th level fighter, then you have to give up the AWESOME powers of a 20th level cleric!  I'd say that is a fair trade-off.

If my pure Cleric ever multi-classes, it will not be until he reaches 20th level (unlikely to ever happen in and of itself).  Even then, server rules will require me to justify the switch!

[Frelinder]

I have a few things to say here.

First as Ozy stated just because you mix classes its not "powerbuilds" Plain 20 cleric or plain 20 wizard/sorc are the most powerfull classes on this server.

The most people here that multiclassing does it for flavor and to make their charcter more intresting and fun to play. It takes a character development thread and for some classes an cdq to take them. So in fact multiclassing is making Layonara an even better RP server then it would have been without the possibility to multiclassing. Many here have verry intresting stories about how, why and when they becamed or decided to go a different way or choose an different path with their character.

We are all individuals and with all the races/sub-races, classes and multiclassing here on Layo every player is unic. And that is so cool I think.

People play here for many reasons. Some just for the RP. Sits on benches in Hlint and talking all day. And some almost just for the action and exploring and killing stuff! most people do both. Personaly I prefer Adventuring and killing before sitting in Hlint. And if thats making me an bad role player in some eyes... so be it. Don't get me wrong here.. I love this server for the rich enviroment and for all the great characters. And if I just wan'ted to hack and slash and lvl fast i wouldn't have been here for two years now.

There are many ways to build a strong build and whats wrong in making a good build? And to acuse people that are multiclassing for destroying the server is a bit to much eh?

The point I wan't to make is similar to Eight-bits. If we start to pick on others and saying that or thoose player doesn't deserve or can play their charactars right because it doesn't live up to an certain standard in some people eyes Layo will go under.. I'm certain that everyone does the best they can.. and if thats not good enough.. *shrugs*

[Chnmmr]

Sorry I brought this up.

[Weeblie]

No need to apologies for bringing this topic up, as I think it's a rather relevant one.

A specific class combination in itself isn't a powerbuild in my opinion, but together with a lot of other points taken in consideration, it might be.

For example, the cleric/fighter you are speaking of. If the said person also put 18 str, 12 dex, 18 con, 8 int, 18 wis and 8 cha on the character (yes, yes... I know, it's impossible numbers ), picking feats for maximal damage/survivability and the "best domains" (whatever those are!) and  using the "best items", then I would say, it's most probably a powerbuild, no matter what RP-reason (ugh, I hate that word as it's so inexact) is mixed in it.

On the other hand... Put 8 str, 8 dex, 8 con, 18 int, 10 wis and 18 cha on it... Well, I don't believe -anyone- would say it's a powerbuild any longer.

The cleric/fighter is a rather funny example, actually. I had a small discussion with others on IRC about it and just found out it might be powerful because of the 4th attack and the very specific spells only open for fighters. Though, still in my view, all sort of multiclassing of clerics before epic levels is seriously weakening the class. Oh… I’m kind of biased, though… As I’m in love with pure builds!

It's sad to see the lack of pure fighters (true pure fighters without  even PrCs) at high levels. In a low item-magic world as Layo, they are just... not very good at all at high levels, compared to most other classes/multiclasses. We have to make a new word to describe the category they fall into: "underpowerbuilds"

[Frelinder]

No need to apologize Chnmmr. I can totally understand your opinion since you come from a server that had a problem with this. And probably there are others that have the same thoughts as you. And whos to say my opinion is the right one... It is just the way I see it.

[Gilrod]

Its good to bring it up...

Then there is a discussion...

Now others who might have the same concerns can be informed and feel better about how the server operates and their own choices of character development...

If only communities in the rest of the world could clear up feelings and concerns in such a rational, open and constructive manner... we would all be better off.

We have a good community here.

[Praylor Falcus]

Riiigggghhhhttt

[Polak76]

This topic is always an interesting one.

Anyway rather than power building, how many characters on leveling-up actually pick feats or skills that they used prior to leveling.  eg, a rogue goes around hunting with a group of adventurers, levels up and takes hide, MS & Open Lock, yet at level 5 hasn't even used any of these skills yet.  Then to top it off he takes two weapon fighing at lvl 6 yet has used a bow since level 1.
How many of us do that?  How many of us actually develop to the environment?
I know alot of you will put your hand up and claim you do but I've only met a minority, an extreme minority that actually do.  From a point of view this can also be termed as powergaming.