The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chnmmr on December 13, 2006, 03:12:07 pm
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I'm curious about something. This server is obviously against powerbuilds so why does it allow the obviously powerbuild Cleric 15 figher 5?
And another thing I'm curious about, why on earth do mages have the Tenser's transformation spell? Where is the sense on giving a mage who's disadvantage is supposed to be lack of melee pressence with a spell that turns them into a fighter with mage buffs ontop of that?
Two things I've always wondered and would really like to see people's views on this.
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its not the powerbuild per say, i would think. But ther powerleveling that is the issue. There is a diference in between them. A cleric has to be able to stand in combat to heal, so it is naturall to asume they are already able to fight giving them the fighter atributes only contributes to their clerical abilities to go into melee and heal their comrades.
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Here I am wasting time reading forum posts, when I can be power leveling
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I'm posting here to defend powerbuilds. My view is that if someone can RP their character, it doesn't matter how the mechanics work out. So long as it is approved, you can RP it. That's what I think. Nobody here would have any sort of class if it wasn't first approved by the GM team.
Tensers Transformation is a spell that comes at a cost of two things - prepared spells per day, and the ability to cast spells. It makes them out to be a fighter of an average build (not a so-called powerbuild), which when you consider the amount of damage a Mage can do over a wide area as opposed to a Tenser's Mage who is dealing damage to one target, you'll see it's not a big deal. It's a spell to be used as a last resort, really, if you want to be an effective mage. I know I personally groan when I see the level 11-12 mage going nuts with Tensers, when he/she could be dealing a whole lot more damage, and generally being a better asset to the party.
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Cleric 15 fighter 5 is not a powerbuild really. It depends on how you get there. All multi-clasing has to be approved and has a RP reason behind it. Although you are right in that 5 fighter levels can really round out many classes. It all goes into how the PC is played, if the clreic at hand spends most of her in the front line then it makes sense that she would want to train in hand to hand combat more.
Got nothing to say about tenser's, just that once a mage hits a certain level they are solo monsters.
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Well considering I have power gamer credentials of my own, I can say that the build you mentioned has been approved before and is far from power gaming. It is a relatively weak build. When compared to say; 20 cleric. You may scoff at this of course, however I will happily trade points with you in PM’s.
Tenser’s Transformation is a classic D&D spell, the resulting ‘transformed’ mage is actually not all that spectacular. The spells they unleash on themselves before don’t compare to have devoted those spells to a fighter before hand. Not to mention the whole loss of spells requiring re-memorization afterwards. Or that while transformed they can’t cast a thing. So while a powerful spell, being level seven it isn’t a kingmaker.
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I'd really have no trouble seeing fighter clerics if the person roleplayed a cleric. I never see clerics use their dieties name in conversation, in battle calls or anything. Generally I can never tell if someone is a cleric untill they cast their spells, and even then can never tell what faith they are. Most clerics seem to come from a general mold.
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Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 4:12 PM
I'm curious about something. This server is obviously against powerbuilds so why does it allow the obviously powerbuild Cleric 15 figher 5?
And another thing I'm curious about, why on earth do mages have the Tenser's transformation spell? Where is the sense on giving a mage who's disadvantage is supposed to be lack of melee pressence with a spell that turns them into a fighter with mage buffs ontop of that?
Two things I've always wondered and would really like to see people's views on this.
Theres a lot worse power builds out there than cleric/fighter.
Ranger/rogue/weaponmaster springs to mind.
Vyris
Edit: I also wanted to say I agree with 8-bit on the RP justifying the classes, that should be paramount anyway, not that with class X you'll be capable of Y more points of damage per round. One sure way to remove any fun from the game or completely abandon RP is to start boiling characters down to numbers.
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Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 4:31 PM
I'd really have no trouble seeing fighter clerics if the person roleplayed a cleric. I never see clerics use their dieties name in conversation, in battle calls or anything. Generally I can never tell if someone is a cleric untill they cast their spells, and even then can never tell what faith they are. Most clerics seem to come from a general mold.
Look up Berdin sometime, I'll cram a little Vorax down your throat :)
Vyris
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Theres a lot worse power builds out there than cleric/fighter.
Ranger/rogue/weaponmaster springs to mind.
Vyris
Thanks for that Vyris
*Sallaron rubs his hands together with glee*
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Look out for Wanark Thangahaz'a and Muireann, Tarradon.
Those two clerics and paladins (that I know) RP their faith very well
Chnmmr - 12/14/2006 12:31 PM
I'd really have no trouble seeing fighter clerics if the person roleplayed a cleric. I never see clerics use their dieties name in conversation, in battle calls or anything. Generally I can never tell if someone is a cleric untill they cast their spells, and even then can never tell what faith they are. Most clerics seem to come from a general mold.
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I RP mine well, hence the picture with over 20 empty booze bottles around his passed out form. *nods sagely*
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Look up Berdin sometime, I'll cram a little Vorax down your throat :)
I would recommend not going anwhere near Berdin. He's an obvious zealot, with some severe mental problems, possibly with origins reaching back into some sort of rough childhood. Other popular theories include him being under the effects of a Dominate Person spell, bad pipeweed, or too much ale at the local inn.
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You must not run into many decent clerics... Though there are a few that have good RP reasons for not mentioning their deities (Valkhyn springs to mind).
Spend some time with Ceviren Lightstaff. He's pretty devout.
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I don't know where you're coming from about the Cleric thing. I hear a lot of it. Sometimes too much. You need to expand your game a bit, and go out with some Clerics you didn't find AFK at the benches, I think. :)
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*hijacks thread again*
Powerbuilds have feelings too!
*holds up a protest sign and sings protest songs*
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You can make any class overpowered.
Anyone disputing this has gotten too used to pointing fingers.
Class power is an MC Escher staircase. There's always something better. It's all situational, and what you most often find is someone complaining at the a) prime of a character build, or b) particular niche of a character build. Builds meant for soloing lack in parties, builds meant for parties lack while soloing.
But moreso, you can make any class substantially underpowered. This is the other big spark for that person who's complaining.
Add value to the server. I'd contend that folks that bring up the subjects of powerbuilds, powerlevelling, powergaming, and every other powerxxxxing are as detrimental to the server as those characters out there bending or even severely warping the rules. It yields about the same amount of angst when you could instead be enjoying the world, and letting the quick fix folks fade on out.
;)
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Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 6:31 PM I'd really have no trouble seeing fighter clerics if the person roleplayed a cleric. I never see clerics use their dieties name in conversation, in battle calls or anything. Generally I can never tell if someone is a cleric untill they cast their spells, and even then can never tell what faith they are. Most clerics seem to come from a general mold.
Come and talk to Lex'or, there is not one day since I have startd him that there has not been a rp about his faith or him talking of his diety.
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As a cleric/fighter who will eventually match the stats you offered,I feel the need to defend myself.
My cleric worships a god who is bent on destruction. Complete annihilation. Why wouldn't he have some fighter training? I think it would be bad RP not to take figher levels.
Also. Any multiclass is a chore. Especially early on. At 3/3 split, my cleric is spawning for level 6 characters but only has the level 3 abilities to deal with them. Comparing my straight paladin(s) at the same level, my fighter/cleric is much weaker.
And yes, I do think that faith is poorly played by some. Faith is a hard thing to RP and not many do it well, and more often than not, RP'ing faith properly makes for a very difficult time on a server where party play is the way to go.Just try to get anyting accomplished on a quest when you have Toranites, Lucindites,and a Pyrotechite together. If we RP'd it correctly, we would all turn on the Pyrotechite and then attack each other.
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Well thats unfortunate... you pick a class you should rp it. If you play a cleric then don't rp the faith, you are not a cleric but a fighter with spells.
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@redhawk shhhss thats coming hehe
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Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 8:18 PM
Well thats unfortunate... you pick a class you should rp it. If you play a cleric then don't rp the faith, you are not a cleric but a fighter with spells.
I'd have to disagree with that, to a point. (Devil's advocate and all that.)
There are quite a few characters who don't openly display their faith for IN CHARACTER reasons.
Likewise, there are a number of people who just don't bother playing the faith, but... They are a minority (or at least, I'd like to think so).
As to why noone uses deity-related battle cries? Heheheh. I don't have the quickslots to spare, nor can I type that quickly.
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Chongo - 12/13/2006 7:44 PM
Anyone disputing this has gotten too used to pointing fingers.
Try this link. (http://thread-view.asp?tid=32477&posts=13&start=1) Smeesh. This is why I refrain from ranting on Layo. The End.
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Redhawk - 12/13/2006 6:07 PM
Faith is a hard thing to RP and not many do it well, and more often than not, RP'ing faith properly makes for a very difficult time on a server where party play is the way to go.
Trust me, preaching to the choir there. I've gotten Berdin painted into such an RP corner playing his faith (correctly as I see it) that he either dislikes someone, or someone that that someone wants to bring along. Vorax dislikes just about everyone. Vorax hates you twice if your a mage and a worshiper of someone he dislikes. I often have Voraxian fighter envy, because imho the strictest Vorax dogma doesn't completely apply to them, So while a dwarven fighter who pays homage to Vorax might find am RP'able reason to make friends with an A'zatan cleric or a wizard, Berdin never would be able to and remain true to his faith.
And... I'd put my money on the level 20 cleric vs any powerbuilds at 20 total levels, especially if they started the dual at 40 yards :)
Vyris
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Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 8:18 PM
Well thats unfortunate... you pick a class you should rp it. If you play a cleric then don't rp the faith, you are not a cleric but a fighter with spells.
Not every cleric has to mindlessly preach constantly. Some clerics may prefer to have a more personal, direct contact with their deity rather than mouthing off at all times. It may look to you like they're not RPing the faith, but are you with their character constantly? One-dimensional cleric-playing is sad and not beneficial. One-dimensional playing of any class is questionable.
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"Preaching by example."
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Vyris - 12/14/2006 8:32 AM
Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 4:12 PM
I'm curious about something. This server is obviously against powerbuilds so why does it allow the obviously powerbuild Cleric 15 figher 5?
And another thing I'm curious about, why on earth do mages have the Tenser's transformation spell? Where is the sense on giving a mage who's disadvantage is supposed to be lack of melee pressence with a spell that turns them into a fighter with mage buffs ontop of that?
Two things I've always wondered and would really like to see people's views on this.
Theres a lot worse power builds out there than cleric/fighter.
Ranger/rogue/weaponmaster springs to mind.
Vyris
Edit: I also wanted to say I agree with 8-bit on the RP justifying the classes, that should be paramount anyway, not that with class X you'll be capable of Y more points of damage per round. One sure way to remove any fun from the game or completely abandon RP is to start boiling characters down to numbers.
Heh...even better Cleric/Rogue.
And to top that off Cleric/Figher/Rogue - Oh the memories of Sabel. Able to kill stuff at lvl 10 that I couldn't do at lvl 15.
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Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 8:18 PM Well thats unfortunate... you pick a class you should rp it. If you play a cleric then don't rp the faith, you are not a cleric but a fighter with spells.
I want you to do me a favor and stop, take a step back from point fingers and making unbased claims, and think for a moment. A Cleric, is by default, a devoted servent to a single God or Goddess. These Clerics then are tasked with preforming the duties of said God or Goddess. Clerics can be powerful warriors, and Clerics are impressive assets to any party. Clerics are, however, bound by the laws of their diety and thus will never have the freedom that any other class (Aside from say, perhaps a Paladin) in the way they act. They are expected to be the truest example of their diety, and to take on the aspects of said diety.
You are making a lot claims here, even in the single quote I have above here. I am a player of two Clerics, and these two Clerics are followers of evil Gods. If I were to roleplay my faith openly, I would be burned for a Corathite, and chased off as a Branderbacker. By not openly expressing either of their faiths I AM in fact roleplaying my class.
I will impose a hypothetical here, but I am really loosing interest in this subject. A Cleric of Toran is a stoic and kind man. He fights well, he carries on the party, and never denies healing. He never speaks a word of his faith, because as a wise man, he knows that the example of his actions will have a deeper effect that explaing how wonderful and grand Toran is. I want you to consider an alternative before you start saying such biased comments about Clerics. I will, however, admit there are followers who are not perfect. We are a mixed group of roleplayers, and some are quite new to this.
I am going to step out of this discussion now. I want everyone to know that this recent trend of finger-pointing and complaint is something that only takes a community apart. Instead of saying:
Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 6:31 PM I'd really have no trouble seeing fighter clerics if the person roleplayed a cleric. I never see clerics use their dieties name in conversation, in battle calls or anything. Generally I can never tell if someone is a cleric untill they cast their spells, and even then can never tell what faith they are. Most clerics seem to come from a general mold.
We should compliment those who do roleplay their characters well. We're a community first. I want everyone to try and remember that.
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Dont even know why I decided to reply....
But to the comment that reducing our charectors to numbers detracts from the fun of the game... Personaly I rather like numbers, and manipulating numbers in an equation (e.g. the equation of witch the sum total equals what NWN sees as youre char) to best suit how I like to enjoy my gaming experience, within the rules of the server of course. But I get some strange sence of satisfaction from tweaking everything I can reasonably tweak to achieve this goal.
For me this is the Yin the my roleplaying Yang, so to speak...
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So essentially, anything goes if you can roleplay it. Good to know....
*plans a monk druid*
I'm done here too, thank you to those who actually replied to my questions and didn't. Please understand I'm not finger pointing as such, I'm just finding it a trend that in every rp server I've come across there are people who -will- power build and do things that are not in the spirit of the server, and yet people will still defend them because of 'community'. Community is all well and good but when the server starts to comprise mostly of cleric/fighters and mages because of their known strength rather than roleplay potential? -That- is when the community should start to worry.
Much the same as sub-races were locked to maintain world balance, sometimes one needs to consider locking a class that has gotten way out of hand.
One roleplay server I was on had such a problem. It got so bad that eventually over 90% of the server were Werewolves/werecats/Vampire/Demons/Devils with rogue levels to max out tumble and UMD. For the sake of 'community' the staff their did nothing to curb this untill alot of the good aligned PCs actually -left- the server (me included) because they were no longer having fun when their paladins/druids/city guard were being captured/tortured/killed at least 2 times a day.
So I say this. Think of the community when you make these solo capable builds. Think of the community when your once fragile mage flashes around that Tenser spell making the fighter obsolete in the party. Think of your diety when you act and cast spells. Think of the damage your powerbuilds cause to the server and the people in it, why? Because powerbuilds -do- damage a server whether people want to believe it or not. I've seen it time and time again on the many roleplay servers I've left. There's always that one Shifter/druid/monk or RDD/sorc/Paladin or Wiz/Pale/Fighter etc that makes it through the cracks under the pretence of roleplay and then does so much damage to the server.
..... ok I'm really done now *blushes*
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Tenser's no more makes a Fighter obsolete than those pixies make Rogues obsolete.
Which is to say, to a degree, they do, but they're not NEARLY as effective overall. And a lot less fun.
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Chnmmr,
You know my other character called Rain, his a Ranger/wizzard. he has this spell that is called Polymorph self, basicaly he can morphed into trolls, or umberhulk that gives 23 str, 14 dex 23 con etc, with a regenerative to the troll. Now to my sence this is a more effective spell than tenser's transfromation. I could be wrong, but the troll woud make a better fighter than the other one, yet you don't frown on it. It also has the same draw back though, you lose your memorised spells and must learn them back. And this is why I am not using it.
The thing is, these are giving to us by the team and also by bioware who made this game based on the dnd rules set. It is there in the book, the rules, and the options.
You also have to think of one thing, when you take Omer for instance that has this spell, he only has a 27 hit point and is a lvl 12, the spell will give him a 1d6 to constitution per level so he gain about 12 to 15 hit points essentialy. Now take a fighter from the same level, they will have a lot more strenght and a lot more hit point than any mage where there stats do not provide the opportunity for that.
So what ever you may think about that spell, and How ever good I like Omer as a char, if you give me him to fight up front with that spell or a fighter, I would chose the fighter, because I know the fighter will be at his best up front.
beside if we are following your mind set, the cleric should be ban outright. Just think of it, Stone skin, Hammer of god, sumons lvl 9 if they go to lvl 28 clerics, and a myriad of other spells that give them bonuses to their str and other things. You dont need to take 5 lvl in fighter to see that Cleric where thought up as posible fronters with their spells and possibe solo travelers from city to city to go provide their aid to who ever needs it with that kind of sumouns that will last 5 turn per level caster.
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The way I look at it, mixing levels is not really a "powerbuild" at all given the server rules requiring 5 levels.
The powerbuilds possible in NWN are because of "favored class" rules allowing a human or dwarf cleric to pick up one level of fighter for the bonus feats ONLY to gain feats that a cleric couldn't, or a halfling or human cleric picking up 1-2 levels of thief to gain theif class skills only.
The truth is, a 15 level cleric might not fight as well as a 10th level cleric/5th level fighter, but as Vyris said, the "pure" Cleric is still a more powerful cleric. It is just a trade off of versality versus pure class power. The server rules keep people from unfairly capitalizing on the "versality" side by picking up just one or two levels to be pretty powerful in their major class and still versital by picking up the large number of skills offered by the FIRST level of another class. The server rules force an investment into the second class at the expense of "power" in the first class.
What most would call a "powerbuild" I call a trade-off. The server rules force that this "tradeoff" for versitality actually have a commensorate cost in pure class power.
Without the 5 level rule, this trade-off would be one sided, but L and the team's rule, in my opinion, strikes a fair balance.
If you want the versitility of a 15th level cleric and a 5th level fighter, then you have to give up the AWESOME powers of a 20th level cleric! I'd say that is a fair trade-off.
If my pure Cleric ever multi-classes, it will not be until he reaches 20th level (unlikely to ever happen in and of itself). Even then, server rules will require me to justify the switch!
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I have a few things to say here.
First as Ozy stated just because you mix classes its not "powerbuilds" Plain 20 cleric or plain 20 wizard/sorc are the most powerfull classes on this server.
The most people here that multiclassing does it for flavor and to make their charcter more intresting and fun to play. It takes a character development thread and for some classes an cdq to take them. So in fact multiclassing is making Layonara an even better RP server then it would have been without the possibility to multiclassing. Many here have verry intresting stories about how, why and when they becamed or decided to go a different way or choose an different path with their character.
We are all individuals and with all the races/sub-races, classes and multiclassing here on Layo every player is unic. And that is so cool I think.
People play here for many reasons. Some just for the RP. Sits on benches in Hlint and talking all day. And some almost just for the action and exploring and killing stuff! most people do both. Personaly I prefer Adventuring and killing before sitting in Hlint. And if thats making me an bad role player in some eyes... so be it. Don't get me wrong here.. I love this server for the rich enviroment and for all the great characters. And if I just wan'ted to hack and slash and lvl fast i wouldn't have been here for two years now.
There are many ways to build a strong build and whats wrong in making a good build? And to acuse people that are multiclassing for destroying the server is a bit to much eh?
The point I wan't to make is similar to Eight-bits. If we start to pick on others and saying that or thoose player doesn't deserve or can play their charactars right because it doesn't live up to an certain standard in some people eyes Layo will go under.. I'm certain that everyone does the best they can.. and if thats not good enough.. *shrugs*
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Sorry I brought this up.
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No need to apologies for bringing this topic up, as I think it's a rather relevant one.
A specific class combination in itself isn't a powerbuild in my opinion, but together with a lot of other points taken in consideration, it might be.
For example, the cleric/fighter you are speaking of. If the said person also put 18 str, 12 dex, 18 con, 8 int, 18 wis and 8 cha on the character (yes, yes... I know, it's impossible numbers ;) ), picking feats for maximal damage/survivability and the "best domains" (whatever those are!) and using the "best items", then I would say, it's most probably a powerbuild, no matter what RP-reason (ugh, I hate that word as it's so inexact) is mixed in it.
On the other hand... Put 8 str, 8 dex, 8 con, 18 int, 10 wis and 18 cha on it... Well, I don't believe -anyone- would say it's a powerbuild any longer. :)
The cleric/fighter is a rather funny example, actually. I had a small discussion with others on IRC about it and just found out it might be powerful because of the 4th attack and the very specific spells only open for fighters. Though, still in my view, all sort of multiclassing of clerics before epic levels is seriously weakening the class. Oh… I’m kind of biased, though… As I’m in love with pure builds! :P
It's sad to see the lack of pure fighters (true pure fighters without even PrCs) at high levels. In a low item-magic world as Layo, they are just... not very good at all at high levels, compared to most other classes/multiclasses. We have to make a new word to describe the category they fall into: "underpowerbuilds" :)
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No need to apologize Chnmmr. I can totally understand your opinion since you come from a server that had a problem with this. And probably there are others that have the same thoughts as you. And whos to say my opinion is the right one... It is just the way I see it.
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Its good to bring it up...
Then there is a discussion...
Now others who might have the same concerns can be informed and feel better about how the server operates and their own choices of character development...
If only communities in the rest of the world could clear up feelings and concerns in such a rational, open and constructive manner... we would all be better off.
We have a good community here.
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Riiigggghhhhttt
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This topic is always an interesting one.
Anyway rather than power building, how many characters on leveling-up actually pick feats or skills that they used prior to leveling. eg, a rogue goes around hunting with a group of adventurers, levels up and takes hide, MS & Open Lock, yet at level 5 hasn't even used any of these skills yet. Then to top it off he takes two weapon fighing at lvl 6 yet has used a bow since level 1.
How many of us do that? How many of us actually develop to the environment?
I know alot of you will put your hand up and claim you do but I've only met a minority, an extreme minority that actually do. From a point of view this can also be termed as powergaming.
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I can actually raise my hand and say that I do. It's how I decide how to allocate my secondary skill points.
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Polak76 - 12/14/2006 3:25 PM
This topic is always an interesting one.
Anyway rather than power building, how many characters on leveling-up actually pick feats or skills that they used prior to leveling. eg, a rogue goes around hunting with a group of adventurers, levels up and takes hide, MS & Open Lock, yet at level 5 hasn't even used any of these skills yet. Then to top it off he takes two weapon fighing at lvl 6 yet has used a bow since level 1.
How many of us do that? How many of us actually develop to the environment?
I know alot of you will put your hand up and claim you do but I've only met a minority, an extreme minority that actually do. From a point of view this can also be termed as powergaming.
No this is just going to far! I mean before you take two weapon fighting, it's useless to try to do it, and you will be no good in fighting at all. try it some against harmless enemies for role playing purposes, okay, but are you really going into a real fight (even with goblins) with weapons that simply will not hit?
Also a level 5 rogue has barely had a chance to pick a lock in layo, does that mean he's not allowed to put points in the skill? and then many skills don't work well until you get higher numbers, including hide, and a player only has to try and fail a few times to know that. in fact i think most people with hide skill practice it plenty so that they can know what to expect, it's one of those things you really don't want to have fail on you!
and also in the 2-weapon fighting case, why would you call that cheating when there are so many similar feats (the majority really i would say) like knockdown or rapid shot, that you couldn't practice if you wanted to? it's not like you can pretend to cleave until you have the feat, why say taking one that you can do (but in a way that is totally uneffective) has to be done that way?
finally, isn't there something to be said for someone training in their off hours? layo isn't supposed to represent all waking hours of your characters life and unless you're here 24/7 theres a lot of time unaccounted for, i would think a rogue would be practicing locks and a fighting would be using combat dummies or sparring or whatever...
honestly this kind of thing is getting to me, there are so many ways for us to accuse each other of whatever, can we just sit back and enjoy the game a little? where does all this come from anyway, the need to tell everyone else they're doing it wrong?
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Pyyran dual-wielded before he got Ambidex. And he still doesn't have Two-weapon. Nor will he ever.
The rest is representative of practice that can't easily be shown, like with KD. There's a lot to be said for RP.
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I am not pleased with the way this thread was brought up nor with the way the original author returned to make sniping comments at the other posters.
Regardless of topic, the word civil is the key in the phrase civil discussion. From all parties involved in the discussion.
Please keep this more in mind in the future.
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I think Polak76 has a point. I didn't think of it, but I am going to follow up on it now for my characters. In regard to your question how can it be acted in the game...you are right it doesn't because of game mechanics. BUT that doesn't mean that you cannot reennact it outside the game. You could use your CDT.
Just like when one wants to dual class your character, one have to CDT it extensively or go through a CDQ, so to you *could* just document that down in your CDT...that went something like this:
[Dual Weilding example]
Today I had a hand at dual weilding a weapon. I found it streneous to say the least...having to concentrate using two blades at the same time. I tried positioning the blades correctly so that I can slice my opponents and block their blades effective. I think its high time that I find myself a tutor that I can do this.
Yes it maybe longwinded. Yes, it takes time...but this adds just something more to Layonara...to make it an enriched world. ;)
memilies - 12/15/2006 3:40 PM
Polak76 - 12/14/2006 3:25 PM
This topic is always an interesting one.
Anyway rather than power building, how many characters on leveling-up actually pick feats or skills that they used prior to leveling. eg, a rogue goes around hunting with a group of adventurers, levels up and takes hide, MS & Open Lock, yet at level 5 hasn't even used any of these skills yet. Then to top it off he takes two weapon fighing at lvl 6 yet has used a bow since level 1.
How many of us do that? How many of us actually develop to the environment?
I know alot of you will put your hand up and claim you do but I've only met a minority, an extreme minority that actually do. From a point of view this can also be termed as powergaming.
No this is just going to far! I mean before you take two weapon fighting, it's useless to try to do it, and you will be no good in fighting at all. try it some against harmless enemies for role playing purposes, okay, but are you really going into a real fight (even with goblins) with weapons that simply will not hit?
Also a level 5 rogue has barely had a chance to pick a lock in layo, does that mean he's not allowed to put points in the skill? and then many skills don't work well until you get higher numbers, including hide, and a player only has to try and fail a few times to know that. in fact i think most people with hide skill practice it plenty so that they can know what to expect, it's one of those things you really don't want to have fail on you!
and also in the 2-weapon fighting case, why would you call that cheating when there are so many similar feats (the majority really i would say) like knockdown or rapid shot, that you couldn't practice if you wanted to? it's not like you can pretend to cleave until you have the feat, why say taking one that you can do (but in a way that is totally uneffective) has to be done that way?
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I would never say don't do it, and if it makes it a better experience for you then i hope you do!
But there was the implication that if you don't role play towards the skills you will have later you are doing it wrong. It's the "you are doing it wrong" that I am objecting to..!
And I am objecting because while i like this world and most of the people i met there is a lot of "you are doing it wrong" over things that are vague, at best. i am not talking about the hard rules, i am talking about certain things that should be matters of opinion, and this is a good example of that. how you play a cleric is another but i won't go back to that..
Remember some of us are still discovering along the way, and some don't know the game inside and out... I don't know what feats I will pick until I see the list and even then it's a coin toss usually... not every one has a "plan", not everyone making a choice you wouldn't do personally is "wrong"...
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Noted.
If you are interested in the list, then perhaps you might want to check out LORE.
http://nwn.layonara.com/Query
That has all the feats and everything loaded in there and you can search for any term in the database that relates to Layo
memilies - 12/15/2006 4:47 PM
I would never say don't do it, and if it makes it a better experience for you then i hope you do!
But there was the implication that if you don't role play towards the skills you will have later you are doing it wrong. It's the "you are doing it wrong" that I am objecting to..!
Remember some of us are still discovering along the way, and some don't know the game inside and out... I don't know what feats I will pick until I see the list and even then it's a coin toss usually... not every one has a "plan", not everyone making a choice you wouldn't do personally is "wrong"...
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Damn Memilies, don't get your knickers in a knot! I could have picked any example but i chose that one. You can do whatever you want. Powergamers dont bother me. I really don't care how anyone wants to play this game, nor do i really care about where you put your sklls. I brought up a topic following a line that was created some 40 replies ago.
I'm simply stating a fact that many here don't take skills and feats that compliment the RP but rather the power build. Its rare that i hear someone say, "I've been negotiating alot these days, gonna place my skills in Persuade even though its a cross class skill." Rather they take ranks in tumble even though they wear Full Plate (I always find that one hard to swallow but then that might just be me).
But overall if people take offense to these posts then I'm a little worried how serious they take this game. And it is a Game.
So whether you pick feats on the spot or pre-plan your feat/skill progression to make a juggernaught of chaos (preferably a corathite if you're gonna), it makes no difference to me or anyone that I know well here. This thread is simply for interest sake.
Anyway thats enough from me.
Polak76
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Well in general Polak76, and this is just my opinion, but these forums need a lot more "This is what I do and it works well for me, you should try it" and a lot less "here's what i see you doing and it's wrong". Your point is great as a suggestion but you phrased it like everybody else should be doing it and those who aren't are doing wrong.
And if my knickers are knotted it's because this is hardly the only time i've seen it (considering i've travelled with chmmr as a cleric quite a few times, i feel slightly targeted by this thread itself too). For me that kind of thing is souring me on the layonara experience, it's not always a particularly friendly or helpful place, there is a lot of snapping and backbiting. Well not a LOT, but enough.
Sorry if I snapped at you in particular..! Your point is a good one, actually, but like i said... oh well
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memilies - 12/14/2006 10:47 PM
considering i've travelled with chmmr as a cleric quite a few times, i feel slightly targeted by this thread itself too
Hehehe, I know the feeling (of being targeted). Furthermore, the wizard I'm usually with has developed a new-found afinity for the infamous tensers. ... *looks around innocently*
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I don't think Chnmmr was pointing at anybody in particular....just raising an opinion for discussion, as the thread says.
No one should be taking this personally....just "discuss it" and play nice.
I get a little discouraged when my Lvl 14 Ranger/Rogue is left standing, and a Lvl 13 Wizard Tenser's and storms ahead, slaughtering everything. But hey....what do I care.
Sall would rather be at the back anyway.
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I am not pleased with the way this thread was brought up nor with the way the original author returned to make sniping comments at the other posters.
Like I said, I am sorry I thought I could bring up a discussion about something I thought was very important for the welfare of a roleplay server.... guess not. Nor was I targetting anyone, infact all the people so far who have said they feel 'targeted' should not be as they play their clerics very well in my eyes (whether I like the character or not IC is a different matter ;) )
People should stop taking posts so personally and see what is trying to be said in them. If my post -really- bothers you then maybe it struck a chord? All I have been saying is that wizards should not be up front outfighting the warriors (there is a reason they have d4 hp and poor attack progression) and if you are with a party of good clerics it shouldnt be a dream to expect at least 'some' healing to come from them, afterall good and neutral clerics can spontaneously convert to healing spells.
Yes I know the Tensers spell is a standard spell, doesn't mean it's right. I really do think the Tenser spell turns wizards into something they -shouldn't- be, frontliners.
And so again, its sad when a player can't make a suggestion in a simple honest way without seeing half the playerbase get insulted and staff showing disdain of the thread.
This is what I do and it works well for me, you should try it
That doesnt work in my experience. People generally don't heed advice that makes them appear weaker, whatever server one plays on.
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I've decided to come out of my subterranian lair to make a post on this... don't get attached, finals aren't over until next week...
First off, from my experiance players come to Layonara with the intention of playing three main types of characters (or a mix of the three).
1. Powerful soloing characters. (The guys that can rip through anything and level themselves up.)
2. Support characters. (The people that YOU don't want to go anywhere without.)
3. The uber RP characters. (The ones who are good to have all the time. In fighting and out.)
I've fallen into all three at one point or another, especially with Tath. He started as a support character, then turned into more of a powerful solo character. I then started to get a bit lonely and bored and moved to uber RP. Then I realized that fighting and adventuring is part of RP which brought me to where I am now (An RP/Support character). Nearly full circle.
In my time here I've also gone from one extreme to another as far as my opinions on these types of players are concerned. First, I thought it was all about RPing and nothing else should really matter. Then I thought you absolutely needed a powerful character to make it here. (I had a crafting phase in there too, but we'll leave it out.) Then I thought that all the characters should be able to support each other and require each other for many things (so as to facilitate RP). Finally, I just gave up and figured that we really do need all these different kinds of characters in Layonara. As long as you RP them to the best of your abilities and respect Leanthar and the other players in the process (not powerleveling or making use of exploits) who cares what your build looks like?
Then, there the question of weird class combos. (Monk/Druid, Monk/Cleric, Fighter/Rogue ect.) In Layonara, it is pretty much anything goes. Does that mean you'll get everything approved? No. What it means is that there IS a chance. What can you do to increase your chances. Well, it's pretty simple. You need "cred." Someone who's totally new to this world will be less likely to be approved for an extremely special PrC than someone who's been here a year or two. A lot of people would yell, "That's not fair!" but if you look closely, you'll find it is. It's L's world and he wants to make sure the people who play here are capable of handling their positions and playing their characters with poise befitting the position.
It really isn't a snooty thing, it's a smart thing.
As for wizards and being overpowered with Tensers. I agreed with you at one point. Many months ago I benefitted from Tensers with my wizard and realized just how strong it was. I thought it was too strong. Once I stopped to really examine it though, I found that (for me) the spell was fine just how and where it was. Wizards control magic, they study it for years and years. Many wizards here keep long and elaborate journals recording their studies and findings. Their acumulation of knowledge is matched only by SOME other characters (bards and clerics namely), and since their power essentially comes from their knowledge, with years and years of near constant study packed into them, one would think it fitting that they be powerful.
Should wizards be frontliners, it gets back to everyone's personal opinion. Wizards are as powerful as the makers of DnD make them. Leanthar is trying to keep this world as close to PnP DnD as possible but there are restrictions (such as the massive amount of Non-GM combat that goes on). Ultimately it's up to him, but I can only see voting toward getting rid of Tensers or lowering it's power a bit, if it will be replaced with Transmutation spells that have a progression to them.
Just my two pennies, a paperclip, a piece of string, and a ball of lint though. *snatches up the lint before jumping back onto his potatoe sack and sliding down the hole in the ground*
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" All I have been saying is that wizards should not be up front outfighting the warriors"
Tell that to the makers of original PnP Dungeons and Dragons who came up with the spell :)
Seriously it's not that great of a spell. Its downright annoying to have to prepare all of the spells that disappeared again.
In addition it doesn't last very long and you can't cast so it's not as if you're gaining the powers of a fighter and a mage, just one buffed fighter. For a short period of time. And then when you get back to normal you realize the spell wiped out half of your remaining ones.
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It's one thing to play a stereotypical character. It's quite another to expect everyone to conform to that ideal. Some wizards and sorcerers like the occasional chance to beat on things. Tenser's Transformation exists, has benefits and limitations. I don't see why this spell needs discussed anymore.
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ok its happened in the past and this is one of those posts that make me say "My eyes hurt now".
It all comes down to what way you like to play.As for Tenser's,I think they should take away the polymorph ability and sword from that spell.
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I think I'm not going to read these forums any more, they drive me insane.
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Chnmmr - 12/15/2006 4:20 AM
I am not pleased with the way this thread was brought up nor with the way the original author returned to make sniping comments at the other posters.
Like I said, I am sorry I thought I could bring up a discussion about something I thought was very important for the welfare of a roleplay server.... guess not. Nor was I targetting anyone, infact all the people so far who have said they feel 'targeted' should not be as they play their clerics very well in my eyes (whether I like the character or not IC is a different matter ;) )
People should stop taking posts so personally and see what is trying to be said in them. If my post -really- bothers you then maybe it struck a chord? All I have been saying is that wizards should not be up front outfighting the warriors (there is a reason they have d4 hp and poor attack progression) and if you are with a party of good clerics it shouldnt be a dream to expect at least 'some' healing to come from them, afterall good and neutral clerics can spontaneously convert to healing spells.
Yes I know the Tensers spell is a standard spell, doesn't mean it's right. I really do think the Tenser spell turns wizards into something they -shouldn't- be, frontliners.
And so again, its sad when a player can't make a suggestion in a simple honest way without seeing half the playerbase get insulted and staff showing disdain of the thread.
This is what I do and it works well for me, you should try it
That doesnt work in my experience. People generally don't heed advice that makes them appear weaker, whatever server one plays on.
I have tried to avoid this topic for the most part, but the comments on Tensors just keeps getting to me. You need to play a wizard and level it to the higher levels. Tensors is worthless to a high level wizard/sorceror. At best it is flavor. If anything, the spell ploymorph is the one you should be griping about (if at all).
Troll form
23 str, +5 regen
Zombie
15/- damage reduction I believe
Cast flame shield and go into one of those forums and tell me about front line fighting. The "front" line fighting makes me laugh. So fighters should not be "back line" fighting with their bows? You fight how you can and what is best for the situation, and most importantly how your PC would.
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I don't think this thread can go in any other direction but a flame war from here.
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Eight-Bit - 12/15/2006 2:13 PM
I don't think this thread can go in any other direction but a flame war from here.
If I keep agreeing with eight-bit the laws of the universe are going to crumble and that would be bad for everyone, make it stop!
Vyris
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*agrees with Drizzy's post*
*holds up a sign that says Power gamers are people too! and sings protest songs*
"kuuuumbiaaaah me lord! kuuummmbeeeaaah! Heck no we wont go! Power gamers are people too!"
*walks back and forth, stopping people entering the thread and handing them protest flyers*
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Powergamers, people too? No they're not! ;)
"How do you kill that which has no life?"
(Yeah, I think this thread's outlived itself.)
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There's a max capacity of 20 dollars on the two cents rule.
Doesn't everyone know this?
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die thread die, chops at it with a dagger
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Does everyone like how the thread totally tears its self apart after my post? (It's a skill I've been perfecting in the "off season.")
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Chnmmr - 12/13/2006 8:18 PM
Well thats unfortunate... you pick a class you should rp it. If you play a cleric then don't rp the faith, you are not a cleric but a fighter with spells.
I dissagree to an extent. It's all a matter of how you role play the faith. Just because a cleric doesn't go around babbling about his or her diety everywhere he or she goes does not mean that he or she is not devout. And that includes integrating their diety into their war cries. Take my cleric Minugi for example. He is a devout cleric of Lucinda. Wears robes everywhere, even though the blue clashes with his green eyes, ;) he uses a quarterstaff as much as possible, and he even "wears" a necklace bearing Lucinda's symbol around his neck. However, you will never hear him utter a peep about The Lady of Magic. Why? He can't speak. He's a born mute. I'm not being accusitory with this, but observe the character's actions, dress, weapons, etc. before you say they do not role play their faith, because they may have a legitmate reason why. To me, seeing the character's faith integrated into the afformentioned attributes is more interesting and a more tell-tale sign of a devout than speaking about your diety constantly. A phrase comes to mind, something about Talking the Talk, but not Walking the Walk. :)
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Drags this thread down by the stream, and shoots it in the head...
*walks away mumbling, "Now if it will just STAY dead."
Vyris
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*walks up to the massively wounded thread, then proceds to beat it to death with his protest sign*
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*Sees Hawklen down by the creek, stops by the barn on the way down and grabs a couple axe handles, upon arrival handing one over. "Theres nothing like a good piece of hickory."
Vyris
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*grins at Vyris and they continue to beat the thread in sync, worthy of an olympic event*
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*loads his powerbuilder slaying arrows and starts shooting Hawk and Vyris in the butt*
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*Sighs at the still-living nature of the thread, and casts Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion. And then promptly gets WELL OUT of the spell radius.*
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Alright, who keeps casting raise on this thread? *casts banishment and hopes it doesnt come back*