The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Blackguy on June 27, 2008, 06:47:05 am
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Lately theres something that have me worried.
There seem to be alot of quests going on, for all level ranges. Thats the good thing, but there seems to very very little of quests for highlevels specificly etc. level 21+ people.
I understand the need to make quests for lowerlevels, because of the encounters in such quest would be to easy for higher levels. But I dont understand why most of the quests that higher levels can join, tends to be open for all?
We can all agree on that higher and lower level players RP just the same, good or bad, so it have to be encounter wise were talking. I would like to see some more quests designed for higherlevels that have encounters tailored for them.
Chongos quests series with his 26+ level limit shows that there is alot of people out there that wants/can play in these types of quest. Lots of RP, great fights and a beautyful story. Lets see more of that coming our way.
Blackguy
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"....I understand the need to make quests for lowerlevels, because of the encounters in such quest would be to easy for higher levels. But I dont understand why most of the quests that higher levels can join, tends to be open for all?....."
Because much of the time (if not most I might add) when we do what you request we get a backlash from the community (in general) saying we are "catering to higher levels" and the quests should be open to all. So...we can't win on this one it seems. :)
I don't disagree there is a need for those quests, the entire team knows there is (as does the community I believe)....however as I stated above we can't win, no matter what is done it is wrong. We do our best on this front.
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And then there's the fact that because the encounters are so much more high-powered they tend to be much more complicated, and take a lot more time to prepare for. Not to mention that you have to consider that epic characters tend to have a much, much bigger knowledge and influence base at their command. Oh, and then there's the fact that most epic quests tend to have resounding consequences in the world which means invariably the quest has to be approved by the Loremaster.
In other words, if you want to make good epic quests, you typically need double to triple the prep time for a low-mid-high level quest. That translates almost literally to two-three times fewer epic quests than any other level-ranged quest. So you may see a set of epic quests, then nothing for a while, then one spattered here and there, etc.
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Valid (and good) points Milt. Thanks for reminding us of that. :)
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Thank you for the replies, and I'd like to think im part of the community, and I say your catering to lowlevels :)
Dont get me wrong, I can understand some of the complications revolving the setup/preparation time needed for such a quest. But couldnt a similar highlevel quest be catered to epics and such, simply by scaling some more difficult monsters. I understand that alot of epics characters have stories and specific lore attached to their person, but it doesnt have to be so complicated.
The reason is, that lowlevels can almost join every quest there is out there, and do RP in all of them, but since some of them have combat involved there is a level range. That is fine. But could we not make simple stand-alone quests for epics? Similar to those we have for lowlevels? So instead of killing the spooky goblin leader of weakness, epic chracters could enjoy the fine quality story from the GM, and hence kill the epic goblin of rage.
All other quests that dont include combat or limited, could of course still be labeled as open to all.
But this is more a way to balance peoples playtime. As it is now, most higherlevel gain very very little, next to none XP, except for the occasionally RP XP reward from the GM's ( thank you, you know who you are ). And people still go out on trips despite that, since there is no specific quests for higher levels. This way highlevels could do some more questing instead of running around as most of us do.
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I have no knowledge to what really goes in to setting up quest but it does seem it would be harder to do one for several of the most powerful characters on the server. Unless there was a quest where it was strictly rp and no combat. Then it could be open to all levels.
It also helps to have a couple of characters at different levels then that opens up more quest that I can join in on if I choose to.
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For ages i thinkl personally there was a lot for mainly epic charecter , now its tailored for lower lvls and mid lvls , i think its all swings and rounder bouts some months are better than others and will gear itself for higher pcs once again soon enouugh
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This is just my impression, but it seems part of what is being said -
Oh, and then there's the fact that most epic quests tend to have resounding consequences in the world which means invariably the quest has to be approved by the Loremaster.
- is that epic creatures have as much story as epic adventurers. DMs can't just throw something powerful out there without explaining how something so powerful got there to begin with, and that explanation has to be checked out and approved as fitting the world. It's harder to explain where, say, a super-powerful goblin chieftain came from than just a particularly clever and charismatic but otherwise ordinary low- to mid-level goblin chieftain came from.
Powerful creatures already in the world don't count toward this, as they are epic in level but not in scope; they don't "matter" and aren't quest material any more than the typical, everyday rats in the Hemp sewer. Making something epic-level-quest-worthy would be epic in scope, and that means explaining it and building an epic tale and getting it approved. There has to be an epic story to make an epic quest, else it's just a DM'd trip to Belinara or the Deep again to do some more bashing, and epic stories don't just get tossed in willy nilly. Other stories don't just get tossed in, either, but it's a lot easier to make a mid-level goblin chieftain fit somewhere than an epic goblin chieftain that would have an associated story and quest worthy of epic characters.
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I'll consider running something "just for epics," but I personally (really, this is just me) dislike level reqs on quests. I understand why they are there and don't begrudge the person who sets them.
All the same, you will nearly always see me run open quests. The combat may be easy or ridiculously hard. I leave that for the players to uncover. And then decide how they want to deal with it. I never want players to expect tough fights or easy fights. I never want players to assume they should/must enter combat. All of my quests have ways around directcombat.
That said, I believe if you dig around these general forums you'll find a post I made recently that is similar to your initial request, though I didn't necessarily want "only epic" quests, but more that epics or high-levels can get into. So I feel your pain. ;) Just thought I'd explain a few things.
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This is just my impression, but it seems part of what is being said -
- is that epic creatures have as much story as epic adventurers. DMs can't just throw something powerful out there without explaining how something so powerful got there to begin with, and that explanation has to be checked out and approved as fitting the world. It's harder to explain where, say, a super-powerful goblin chieftain came from than just a particularly clever and charismatic but otherwise ordinary low- to mid-level goblin chieftain came from.
Powerful creatures already in the world don't count toward this, as they are epic in level but not in scope; they don't "matter" and aren't quest material any more than the typical, everyday rats in the Hemp sewer. Making something epic-level-quest-worthy would be epic in scope, and that means explaining it and building an epic tale and getting it approved. There has to be an epic story to make an epic quest, else it's just a DM'd trip to Belinara or the Deep again to do some more bashing, and epic stories don't just get tossed in willy nilly. Other stories don't just get tossed in, either, but it's a lot easier to make a mid-level goblin chieftain fit somewhere than an epic goblin chieftain that would have an associated story and quest worthy of epic characters.
I dont agree with that logic. Simply because were epic, do we then expect more "epic" stuff in your quests? No, I dont think so. We'd just expect something in our level range, that would present a challenge. I wouldn't mind a GM'd tour of belinara, aslong as it had a challenge and RP in it. Plenty of untouched areas over there can present a challenge for high level characters, and lots of places to make a good story.
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Sure, but why can't that be a player event?
Does RP only happen on DM'd events?
What constitutes a challenge, exactly?
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GM'ed controlled mobs. And they can change monsters stats and what not, besides GM controlled encounters are more challeging, and can be criss-crossed mixed-maxed and switheroony, when a character dont know what to expect.
You know what to expect if your just doing a trip to belinara.
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This seems to have sidetracked to Sandbox Mode for Epics now more than a request for epic quests.
To be honest, I consider it normal and have seen this trend for a long time now. Certain quest series have done a huge effort for the epic portion of the world though and those GMs really pulled off something far more worthwhile and gargantuan than just a quest. Mad props to them.
Sure, I'd enjoy high level quests, though I'd much rather wait for another high value series to tumble along eventually than go on sandbox cruises with GMs.
I love the fact that quest magnitudes rise along with it's quality and tight integration with world lore. I'd much rather have one of these any day over a just a quest for a quests sake.
Just my ideas on this.
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This seems to have sidetracked to Sandbox Mode for Epics now more than a request for epic quests.
To be honest, I consider it normal and have seen this trend for a long time now. Certain quest series have done a huge effort for the epic portion of the world though and those GMs really pulled off something far more worthwhile and gargantuan than just a quest. Mad props to them.
Sure, I'd enjoy high level quests, though I'd much rather wait for another high value series to tumble along eventually than go on sandbox cruises with GMs.
I love the fact that quest magnitudes rise along with it's quality and tight integration with world lore. I'd much rather have one of these any day over a just a quest for a quests sake.
Just my ideas on this.
So this means that lowlevels cannot enjoy the same thrill that epics have? That instead of large epic series with world conflict they are instead given more quests to make up for it?
I hope thats not the case. Higher level characters have every bit of the same desire to quest as lowerlevels, and yes I wouldn't mind if the quests were epic in scope, but thats not always possible.
But on the otherhand, I dont mind just being entertained and have fun for 4hours doing a stand-alone for higherlevel characters.
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I've always thought of it to be logical, that epic characters who are already well known (for the most part) in Layonara, focus their interests in the world along with their abilities. So people with big powerful abilities want to maximize them and accomplish more, make a mark. That's what the epic series have catered to.
Low level adventurer heroes get more attention because it's easier mechanically for GMs and easier to manage with checks and DCs and encounters. In game I see this with the same explanation as above - adventurers that have yet to get a taste of blood and the bigger events (cataclysms and finales) help the small person. I'd find it odd if epics go on goosechases without a bigger picture in mind. Lower levels can do it just to get their feet wet.
At least that's how I've imagined it.
On track though, I'd love more action, but so far, quality has more than enough had bigger revenue than quantity.
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And what of those that will never make WLCQ, that somehow does not fit into that nice of players that have evolved, are those left for themselves, and picking up on lowerlevels quest when they get open for all, so they can save a pie baker from a pie eating pie?
Sorry im pasting it out like that, but what happent to having some fun, while your RP'ing in the world? Would it be to much to ask that questing should be fun, and not a chore?
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*shrugs* The majority significant plot quests, though open to the lower levels much of the time, are in fact geared towards the upper scope of the level range. When you have some half dragon mutation of the green dragon cult that can rip Bjorn in half in 2 rounds, parlay with Milara to go into the tombs of Rofirien's old kings and battle some 1000hp+ AC 40-50 something ghost that kills more than half the party, try to defend Stone from a squadron of Tiefling sorceresses who launch something like 60 missiles before you can blink, then one has to realize that most of the widescale world plot quests are in fact geared for Epics. Sure, there might be an open level range, but that midlevel fighter isn't going to put much of a dent on the battlefield. But you kind of have to do that as a GM, since if you don't make something a challenge for the epics involved, their +50ish attack rolls and +13d6 sneak attacks kill the main baddie in under 2 rounds as well. And that makes for an anti-climactic quest finale.
More RP and conversationally oriented quests focusing on puzzles and NPC relations seem to make for the best open-mix quests, since a 10th lvl character isn't going to explode immediately should he not solve a riddle. (or if he does, the epic level character has at least a comparable chance of exploding into failure gore as well!) Many times on quests involving reasearch or negotiations with important NPCs, it's the lower level characters' chance to shine alongside the epics, rather than 5 steps behind them. An 8th level bard with 16 charisma and maximized bluff skill is far more convincing than an 8 charisma 30th level fighter with none trained at all! Sure the latter might have a better reputation and is known by most in the world, but he still stumbles through social situations in comparison.
But for the most part, if any large open quest involving the main plot is held which indicates a good likelihood of combat, I'd likely leave my levels 1-15 at home. They'd serve little else other than pretty blood stains on the battle field by the time the 1st Hellball or Greater Balor swept the battlefield. Maybe if they had a few skills that nobody else brought to the party, or if they had a universal useful talent, like bardsong or lots of healing available I'd risk it, but the fighter and rogue, being so AB dmg orientated is impotent when confronted with anything above a +3/20 DR that I could only hit on a crit.
I usually lose interest in our PnP campaigns when the party level gets too high. Then it goes from a tale of a party of adventurers into some bogged down 20 minute per combat round flurry of attacks/round and magic variables, and most of the plots boil down to Dragonball Z showdowns with seemingly omnipotent alien or planar villains. Anything natually born of the earth would die in a blink at that point, and by then the players have devised so many insidious "I-Win" buttons that you need to make everything immune to almost everything, except one wee little achilles heel. And then that gets frustrating to the guy with the 50 AB who wants to kill everything on sight, or the Wizard who insists he can just wish himself into godhood or abuse Thayan circle magic and Mithals to create a massive death laser from space... *eyes Skabot*
I do agree though, I wish there were more high level quests. Just it gets annoying when the range arbitrarily starts at 21st. Then you have some guy at 19th with 309 hp being told he's useless by the 21st level mixed class with 8 less ac and 140hp. :D Maybe if they started around 15-40 or 17-40. My main complaint about the quest level ranges typically available is that they're either too limited to the 1-13 range, or open level-ranged, but only winnable by those around a 21+ range, with everybody with less than 40 ac cowering behind them. Maybe some quests that were more 15-25 range.
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I don't think questing is a chore. I have, at times, wished that every quest didn't seem to be world-affecting. I once commented that it would be nice to just save a cat from a tree to break things up a little. Still, were an epic event scheduled, I, as a player of an as-yet non-WL epic character, would rather see a complex plotline, with or without combat, that has world altering potential worthy of an epic quest than just a combat-focused action festival in the name of fun. That's just me, and opinions vary, so it's all good.
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"Make WLDQ"
What do WLDQ's have to do with anything? You don't need a WLDQ to make a mark on the world. You don't need a WLDQ to do what is done on a WLDQ. You will need GM involvement, but WLDQ-level events don't have to only happen on WLDQ's. In fact, going the WLDQ route assumes you are interested in more than just the character side of things, that you would be interested in certain other responsibilities.
Point is, just because you don't plan to go for WL doesn't mean that you can't pursue something IC that is on par with the kind of epic effect on the world a WL has. No, you won't get the RP magic item or the mini-XP wand, but you can still garner fame, position, and status on par with a WL. You'll go through a different avenue than a WL quest, obviously, but basically you'll have CDQ's and your actions in those major epic quests will solidify your place.
So, you don't have to go WL or help low-levels kill the man-eating pie if you don't want to. You can, as an epic, pursue epic things without being a WL, or even aiming for WL. For that matter, the same applies for non-epics. Anyone can pursue epic things. Pulling them off is another matter entirely. ;)
(Hence why Steel has recently been squished by both a "good" dragon and a "bad" dragon :p)
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Sorry for the slight tangent there, Blackguy... I likely have a few too many opinions about WL right now and just need to hush, heh. And yeah, a "sandbox" non-world-altering epically challenging quest would be fun.... just don't expect it to happen all that often. There are only so many of us and most of the time we are working on something that, surprise surprise, can/has/will alter the world. :D
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Well, so you folks know where I am (since I got referenced):
- I need to finish up the relic system. This is priority 1 for me.
- I have the family flood just arriving. This is going to stall my progress on anything for a few weeks. That and add the new little guy to the equation.
- Hymn will finish up in early August (talk about a bubble)
- I'll run my next series following that - whether or not it'll be like EV or Hymn... I really don't know yet. I'd love to do another EV-style series but geez it's a lot of work.
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Then can we please shut the system down? It sounds like from a GM that we just got "There is really no purpose at all to them except getting special items and an XP wand, since you can do everything without one, anyway." Yah? It's a system that has been pretty draggy for the most part in terms of actual use, so we're giving it a death blow here. It's the fact that people like Jennara AREN'T WLs that are part of the problem.
(Oh yeah, and are interested in their characters and not other responsibilities. There's another one. ;))
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*shrugs* The majority significant plot quests, though open to the lower levels much of the time, are in fact geared towards the upper scope of the level range. When you have some half dragon mutation of the green dragon cult that can rip Bjorn in half in 2 rounds, parlay with Milara to go into the tombs of Rofirien's old kings and battle some 1000hp+ AC 40-50 something ghost that kills more than half the party, try to defend Stone from a squadron of Tiefling sorceresses who launch something like 60 missiles before you can blink, then one has to realize that most of the widescale world plot quests are in fact geared for Epics. Sure, there might be an open level range, but that midlevel fighter isn't going to put much of a dent on the battlefield. But you kind of have to do that as a GM, since if you don't make something a challenge for the epics involved, their +50ish attack rolls and +13d6 sneak attacks kill the main baddie in under 2 rounds as well. And that makes for an anti-climactic quest finale.
More RP and conversationally oriented quests focusing on puzzles and NPC relations seem to make for the best open-mix quests, since a 10th lvl character isn't going to explode immediately should he not solve a riddle. (or if he does, the epic level character has at least a comparable chance of exploding into failure gore as well!) Many times on quests involving reasearch or negotiations with important NPCs, it's the lower level characters' chance to shine alongside the epics, rather than 5 steps behind them. An 8th level bard with 16 charisma and maximized bluff skill is far more convincing than an 8 charisma 30th level fighter with none trained at all! Sure the latter might have a better reputation and is known by most in the world, but he still stumbles through social situations in comparison.
But for the most part, if any large open quest involving the main plot is held which indicates a good likelihood of combat, I'd likely leave my levels 1-15 at home. They'd serve little else other than pretty blood stains on the battle field by the time the 1st Hellball or Greater Balor swept the battlefield. Maybe if they had a few skills that nobody else brought to the party, or if they had a universal useful talent, like bardsong or lots of healing available I'd risk it, but the fighter and rogue, being so AB dmg orientated is impotent when confronted with anything above a +3/20 DR that I could only hit on a crit.
I usually lose interest in our PnP campaigns when the party level gets too high. Then it goes from a tale of a party of adventurers into some bogged down 20 minute per combat round flurry of attacks/round and magic variables, and most of the plots boil down to Dragonball Z showdowns with seemingly omnipotent alien or planar villains. Anything natually born of the earth would die in a blink at that point, and by then the players have devised so many insidious "I-Win" buttons that you need to make everything immune to almost everything, except one wee little achilles heel. And then that gets frustrating to the guy with the 50 AB who wants to kill everything on sight, or the Wizard who insists he can just wish himself into godhood or abuse Thayan circle magic and Mithals to create a massive death laser from space... *eyes Skabot*
I do agree though, I wish there were more high level quests. Just it gets annoying when the range arbitrarily starts at 21st. Then you have some guy at 19th with 309 hp being told he's useless by the 21st level mixed class with 8 less ac and 140hp. :D Maybe if they started around 15-40 or 17-40. My main complaint about the quest level ranges typically available is that they're either too limited to the 1-13 range, or open level-ranged, but only winnable by those around a 21+ range, with everybody with less than 40 ac cowering behind them. Maybe some quests that were more 15-25 range.
You could try turning the tables and act as the instructor / teacher on quests as high level character .
That would give the GM's more leeway and would get high levels / WL's more involved with the lower level characters .
It's easy to think off situations were Barion would stand behind the younger fighters and shout advice to them , or Lin'da behind the row off lower level mages advising them which spells to use and when and how to recognize what works or not ;)
It would provide for good rp even after the possible fights , explaining what they did right / wrong and giving tips IC how to go into a similar situation if it occurs again .
I have had lots fun over the years teaching others how to hold a blade and giving IC tips on how to swing and use the full length off weapons :D
The curse of high ( too high ) levels is that your group is small if you insist on staying with the people you know and off who you know what they can achieve , that and not having too many places to earn a little exp now and then .
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@ Acacea
Suggestions have been made regarding the current incarnation of "WL." However, we're not doing anything to change it right now, if it even gets changed.
I can say that it's not a death blow. Instead, it's a recognition that there's more built into being a WL than just character advancement. So if you pursue WL, we sort of assume you want all the other OOC stuff that goes with it. And it's a cool thing to go for. But you can, like Jennara, just focus on IC stuff. "World Leader" is, afterall, an OOC title.
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Wow...
Can we keep it calm here? Everyone relax a bit please.
And let's please not sidetrack the thread with WLDQ discussions, what it means to be a WL and anything else along those lines.
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Yes please look at the OP's initial post: Questing, why is there so little high levels quests. But I think I have my answer in part.
High level questing is mostly reserved for world changing stuff, and lower levels can fend off the ducks escaping the pond.
And there is alot of other mechanical and RP'ish things attached to it, but thr above seems to fit just about right.
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Good Point Jan. It's certainly what Bjorn has been trying to do with teaching younger folks the craft and trying to sponsor as many dwarven defenders he can meet in game, or conversely Farros who's helped instruct Flynn and Warsinger about the ways of skaldhood. Sure he could charge around killing things for xp, but they could only learn so much by just watching. They need to be able to pitch in on the battlefield and practice their skills in order to improve. This is a bit easier to do with mages, clerics and bards who can passivley help the party with magic, vs a rogue or fighter who kind of feels "itchy" to charge up and maim someone, though they can certainly fill the role of healer between battles with kits. It's just when they face the drake, there's that tendancy to sprint back behind the biggest fighter on the field and hide under his skirt, lol. Bjorn gets grumpy when folks consistantly do that. A crafty GM could still balance the benefit a higher level fighter bestows greatly however, with a well placed confusion spell. *evil laugh* So if that 300+hp juggernaught is killing the enemies too quickly, maybe he could be as much as a liability rather than a safety net. I'd love to see a good 13d6 sneak attacking, dual weilding weapon finnese rogue go wild on that token too. ;)
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My bad, Dorg.
Let's see... two apologies in one thread... guess I'm done for the day.
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@Blackguy you do raise a timely issue and have given me something to think about since I am one of the GMs that tends to run quests and drop ins for mid to lower levels.
There are ways to have epics involved in quests that are geared to lower levels, as Jan pointed out. I am thinking that in my current set of quests a epic PC would be a good addition to bring in.
I will keep this in mind in the future and find ways to involve epics in my quests. The good thing about that is as Jan pointed out a epic or WL can give great support to me as a GM.
I recall my first quest that I ran as an open level quest it quickly got to be more then I cloud handle and I was saved by having Q and Jennara working with me through tells and directing the lower levels.
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My main point has already been stated - I believe by both Lonn and Milty:
Epic-level quest? Epic-level impact.
Have you watched shows like Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon - the action anime? Or Power Rangers, even. As the series progresses, the characters get more powerful, and everything that they come up against is either wiped totally off the face of the earth, or stands to be doing the wiping... With the eviscerated entrails of the heroes, and everyone else in the world. (But, of course, they're defeated, blah, blah.)
As you get bigger, you get more of a backstory... And as monsters get bigger, so do they. The 40th-level Goblin Emperor can't pop out of nowhere.
A single world does not have room for the same volume of Epic-level events as lower-level events. Sure, you could have five goblin/orc/skeleton uprisings per continent, but when you start with enemies that threaten a whole server? You just can't run so many. While Ronus may need help with new goblin tribes on a regular basis, there was only ONE Sinthar Bloodstone.
With PnP, it's easier - you only have one group. You only have to run low-level quests when they're low-level, high-level quests when they're high-level... When the PCs are squishing Necromancer Kings and tangling with Vecna's left-hand minion, you don't really talk about all the other little things that happen. Those are for the other new adventurers! And, if peace reigns in the kingdom for twenty years, you can describe that in a single sentence!
The very nature of a living, breathing world, that flows at a steady pace and incorporates this huge number of people, brings up issues that one might not think about.
Sure, you might want a good, intricate quest, that involves saving such-and-such again, but... Maybe Lin'da, Alantha, Athus... Maybe they're happy to have a break. :)
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When the PCs are squishing Necromancer Kings and tangling with Vecna's left-hand minion,
Had one find Vecna's actual LEFT HAND! Ahahah! That of course led to the epic owner of the eye and the wielder of the Sword of Kaas to chase him down and fly into a 3-way feud. A deranged death cleric and a vampire warlord, now that was fun. In the end the player tried to weild all three and failed his will save vs the sword, and wound up killing himself as it swung for bloodthirsty vengeance.
The moral of the story? NEVER weild diametrically opposed sentient artifacts! No matter HOW powerful you are... a natural one is still a fumble! *evil laugh*
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Had one find Vecna's actual LEFT HAND! Ahahah! That of course led to the epic owner of the eye and the wielder of the Sword of Kaas to chase him down and fly into a 3-way feud. A deranged death cleric and a vampire warlord, now that was fun. In the end the player tried to weild all three and failed his will save vs the sword, and wound up killing himself as it swung for bloodthirsty vengeance.
The moral of the story? NEVER weild diametrically opposed sentient artifacts! No matter HOW powerful you are... a natural one is still a fumble! *evil laugh*
You caught that one! Good job. ;)
Though it was a baddie who had the hand and eye, and the Barbarian who got the Sword of Kaas.
But they stopped the ritual from summoning a fully-formed Vecna onto the Matieral Plane! :)
A perfect example of why these quests don't happen all the time. Look at Record of Lodoss War! Decades of peace after epic stuff, before more Epic stuff comes up again. Or, well, peace enough for the Epics to be useless.
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I'll just make a point of my own that's been nagging me throughout this thread - it's actually quite easy to join a low-level quest.
It all starts with a post to this thread (http://forums.layonara.com/character-submissions)...
;)
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nice one DS :) and very very good point indeed.