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Author Topic: Questing  (Read 287 times)

Acacea

Re: Questing
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 02:25:31 pm »
Then can we please shut the system down? It sounds like from a GM that we just got "There is really no purpose at all to them except getting special items and an XP wand, since you can do everything without one, anyway." Yah? It's a system that has been pretty draggy for the most part in terms of actual use, so we're giving it a death blow here. It's the fact that people like Jennara AREN'T WLs that are part of the problem.

(Oh yeah, and are interested in their characters and not other responsibilities. There's another one. ;))
 

jan

Re: Questing
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 02:47:44 pm »
Quote from: lonnarin
*shrugs* The majority significant plot quests, though open to the lower levels much of the time, are in fact geared towards the upper scope of the level range.  When you have some half dragon mutation of the green dragon cult that can rip Bjorn in half in 2 rounds, parlay with Milara to go into the tombs of Rofirien's old kings and battle some 1000hp+ AC 40-50 something ghost that kills more than half the party, try to defend Stone from a squadron of Tiefling sorceresses who launch something like 60 missiles before you can blink, then one has to realize that most of the widescale world plot quests are in fact geared for Epics.  Sure, there might be an open level range, but that midlevel fighter isn't going to put much of a dent on the battlefield.  But you kind of have to do that as a GM, since if you don't make something a challenge for the epics involved, their +50ish attack rolls and +13d6 sneak attacks kill the main baddie in under 2 rounds as well.  And that makes for an anti-climactic quest finale.

More RP and conversationally oriented quests focusing on puzzles and NPC relations seem to make for the best open-mix quests, since a 10th lvl character isn't going to explode immediately should he not solve a riddle.  (or if he does, the epic level character has at least a comparable chance of exploding into failure gore as well!)  Many times on quests involving reasearch or negotiations with important NPCs, it's the lower level characters' chance to shine alongside the epics, rather than 5 steps behind them.  An 8th level bard with 16 charisma and maximized bluff skill is far more convincing than an 8 charisma 30th level fighter with none trained at all!  Sure the latter might have a better reputation and is known by most in the world, but he still stumbles through social situations in comparison.

But for the most part, if any large open quest involving the main plot is held which indicates a good likelihood of combat, I'd likely leave my levels 1-15 at home.  They'd serve little else other than pretty blood stains on the battle field by the time the 1st Hellball or Greater Balor swept the battlefield.  Maybe if they had a few skills that nobody else brought to the party, or if they had a universal useful talent, like bardsong or lots of healing available I'd risk it, but the fighter and rogue, being so AB dmg orientated is impotent when confronted with anything above a +3/20 DR that I could only hit on a crit.

I usually lose interest in our PnP campaigns when the party level gets too high.  Then it goes from a tale of a party of adventurers into some bogged down 20 minute per combat round flurry of attacks/round and magic variables, and most of the plots boil down to Dragonball Z showdowns with seemingly omnipotent alien or planar villains.  Anything natually born of the earth would die in a blink at that point, and by then the players have devised so many insidious "I-Win" buttons that you need to make everything immune to almost everything, except one wee little achilles heel.  And then that gets frustrating to the guy with the 50 AB who wants to kill everything on sight, or the Wizard who insists he can just wish himself into godhood or abuse Thayan circle magic and Mithals to create a massive death laser from space... *eyes Skabot*

I do agree though, I wish there were more high level quests.  Just it gets annoying when the range arbitrarily starts at 21st.  Then you have some guy at 19th with 309 hp being told he's useless by the 21st level mixed class with 8 less ac and 140hp. :D  Maybe if they started around 15-40 or 17-40.  My main complaint about the quest level ranges typically available is that they're either too limited to the 1-13 range, or open level-ranged, but only winnable by those around a 21+ range, with everybody with less than 40 ac cowering behind them.  Maybe some quests that were more 15-25 range.


You could try turning the tables and act as the instructor / teacher on quests as high level character .

That would give the GM's more leeway and would get high levels / WL's more involved with the lower level characters .

It's easy to think off situations were Barion would stand behind the younger fighters and shout advice to them , or Lin'da behind the row off lower level mages advising them which spells to use and when and how to recognize what works or not ;)

It would provide for good rp even after the possible fights , explaining what they did right / wrong and giving tips IC how to go into a similar situation if it occurs again .
I have had lots fun over the years teaching others how to hold a blade and giving IC tips on how to swing and use the full length off weapons :D

The curse of high ( too high ) levels is that your group is small if you insist on staying with the people you know and off who you know what they can achieve , that and not having too many places to earn a little exp now and then .
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Questing
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2008, 02:53:34 pm »
@ Acacea

Suggestions have been made regarding the current incarnation of "WL." However, we're not doing anything to change it right now, if it even gets changed.

I can say that it's not a death blow. Instead, it's a recognition that there's more built into being a WL than just character advancement. So if you pursue WL, we sort of assume you want all the other OOC stuff that goes with it. And it's a cool thing to go for. But you can, like Jennara, just focus on IC stuff. "World Leader" is, afterall, an OOC title.
 

Dorganath

Re: Questing
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2008, 02:57:46 pm »
Wow...

Can we keep it calm here?  Everyone relax a bit please.

And let's please not sidetrack the thread with WLDQ discussions, what it means to be a WL and anything else along those lines.
 

Blackguy

Re: Questing
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2008, 03:15:58 pm »
Yes please look at the OP's initial post: Questing, why is there so little high levels quests. But I think I have my answer in part.

High level questing is mostly reserved for world changing stuff, and lower levels can fend off the ducks escaping the pond.

And there is alot of other mechanical and RP'ish things attached to it, but thr above seems to fit just about right.
 

lonnarin

Re: Questing
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2008, 03:33:11 pm »
Good Point Jan.  It's certainly what Bjorn has been trying to do with teaching younger folks the craft and trying to sponsor as many dwarven defenders he can meet in game, or conversely Farros who's helped instruct Flynn and Warsinger about the ways of skaldhood.  Sure he could charge around killing things for xp, but they could only learn so much by just watching.  They need to be able to pitch in on the battlefield and practice their skills in order to improve.  This is a bit easier to do with mages, clerics and bards who can passivley help the party with magic, vs a rogue or fighter who kind of feels "itchy" to charge up and maim someone, though they can certainly fill the role of healer between battles with kits.  It's just when they face the drake, there's that tendancy to sprint back behind the biggest fighter on the field and hide under his skirt, lol.  Bjorn gets grumpy when folks consistantly do that.  A crafty GM could still balance the benefit a higher level fighter bestows greatly however, with a well placed confusion spell.  *evil laugh* So if that 300+hp juggernaught is killing the enemies too quickly, maybe he could be as much as a liability rather than a safety net.  I'd love to see a good 13d6 sneak attacking, dual weilding weapon finnese rogue go wild on that token too. ;)
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Questing
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2008, 03:39:49 pm »
My bad, Dorg.


Let's see... two apologies in one thread... guess I'm done for the day.
 

jrizz

Re: Questing
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2008, 03:53:27 pm »
@Blackguy you do raise a timely issue and have given me something to think about since I am one of the GMs that tends to run quests and drop ins for mid to lower levels.

There are ways to have epics involved in quests that are geared to lower levels, as Jan pointed out. I am thinking that in my current set of quests a epic PC would be a good addition to bring in.

I will keep this in mind in the future and find ways to involve epics in my quests. The good thing about that is as Jan pointed out a epic or WL can give great support to me as a GM.

I recall my first quest that I ran as an open level quest it quickly got to be more then I cloud handle and I was saved by having Q and Jennara working with me through tells and directing the lower levels.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Questing
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2008, 04:58:30 pm »
My main point has already been stated - I believe by both Lonn and Milty:

Epic-level quest? Epic-level impact.

Have you watched shows like Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon - the action anime? Or Power Rangers, even. As the series progresses, the characters get more powerful, and everything that they come up against is either wiped totally off the face of the earth, or stands to be doing the wiping... With the eviscerated entrails of the heroes, and everyone else in the world. (But, of course, they're defeated, blah, blah.)

As you get bigger, you get more of a backstory... And as monsters get bigger, so do they. The 40th-level Goblin Emperor can't pop out of nowhere.

A single world does not have room for the same volume of Epic-level events as lower-level events. Sure, you could have five goblin/orc/skeleton uprisings per continent, but when you start with enemies that threaten a whole server? You just can't run so many. While Ronus may need help with new goblin tribes on a regular basis, there was only ONE Sinthar Bloodstone.

With PnP, it's easier - you only have one group. You only have to run low-level quests when they're low-level, high-level quests when they're high-level... When the PCs are squishing Necromancer Kings and tangling with Vecna's left-hand minion, you don't really talk about all the other little things that happen. Those are for the other new adventurers! And, if peace reigns in the kingdom for twenty years, you can describe that in a single sentence!

The very nature of a living, breathing world, that flows at a steady pace and incorporates this huge number of people, brings up issues that one might not think about.

Sure, you might want a good, intricate quest, that involves saving such-and-such again, but... Maybe Lin'da, Alantha, Athus... Maybe they're happy to have a break. :)
 

lonnarin

Re: Questing
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2008, 05:37:35 pm »
Quote from: Stephen_Zuckerman

When the PCs are squishing Necromancer Kings and tangling with Vecna's left-hand minion,  


Had one find Vecna's actual LEFT HAND! Ahahah!  That of course led to the epic owner of the eye and the wielder of the Sword of Kaas to chase him down and fly into a 3-way feud.  A deranged death cleric and a vampire warlord, now that was fun.  In the end the player tried to weild all three and failed his will save vs the sword, and wound up killing himself as it swung for bloodthirsty vengeance.

The moral of the story?  NEVER weild diametrically opposed sentient artifacts!  No matter HOW powerful you are... a natural one is still a fumble!  *evil laugh*
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Questing
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2008, 06:14:33 pm »
Quote from: lonnarin
Had one find Vecna's actual LEFT HAND! Ahahah!  That of course led to the epic owner of the eye and the wielder of the Sword of Kaas to chase him down and fly into a 3-way feud.  A deranged death cleric and a vampire warlord, now that was fun.  In the end the player tried to weild all three and failed his will save vs the sword, and wound up killing himself as it swung for bloodthirsty vengeance.

The moral of the story?  NEVER weild diametrically opposed sentient artifacts!  No matter HOW powerful you are... a natural one is still a fumble!  *evil laugh*

You caught that one! Good job. ;)

Though it was a baddie who had the hand and eye, and the Barbarian who got the Sword of Kaas.

But they stopped the ritual from summoning a fully-formed Vecna onto the Matieral Plane! :)

A perfect example of why these quests don't happen all the time. Look at Record of Lodoss War! Decades of peace after epic stuff, before more Epic stuff comes up again. Or, well, peace enough for the Epics to be useless.
 

darkstorme

Re: Questing
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2008, 10:30:05 pm »
I'll just make a point of my own that's been nagging me throughout this thread - it's actually quite easy to join a low-level quest.

It all starts with a post to this thread...

;)
 

jrizz

Re: Questing
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2008, 10:41:44 pm »
nice one DS :) and very very good point indeed.