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Author Topic: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing  (Read 128 times)

Riven

I've noticed that lens pricing seems somewhat arbitrary. Some items at 75% of lens just are not worth that much True. Some unique items have already been priced in the past as well below the lens price. And now, more and more unique items are showing up that need special pricing if they are sold or traded at shops.

Is the lens pricing a thing that came with nwn or is it a layonara thing?

Is it possible to see what the lens pricing is relying on for determining value? X value for Y attribute of an item, for example?

If so, is it possible to change parts of that equation?

If not, do you think it's worth it to come up with a list of attributes and their values, and proposing that, to help with pricing unique items?
 

orth

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2019, 03:24:32 pm »
The lens pricing is the same value you see on item descriptions now so it's not even needed.

Calculations of item value are very very complex. They involve a base cost, an added cost, multipliers on the base cost and the added cost for each properties. I can't just arbitrarily set a solitary value on an item. We have to tune the multipliers and it's very very hard to do that.

 
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orth

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 06:09:17 pm »
Just for reference this is the Bioware documentation for Item Cost:

4.4. Cost Calculation
The cost of an item is determined by the following formula:
ItemCost = [BaseCost + 1000*(Multiplier^2 - NegMultiplier^2) + SpellCosts]*MaxStack*BaseMult + AdditionalCost

where:

  • BaseMult = ItemMultiplier column value from baseitems.2da.
  • AdditionalCost = AddCost Field from the Item Struct.
  • and the other terms are as defined in the following subsections:

4.4.1. Base Cost
BaseCost = BaseCost column value from baseitems.2da for all items except armor.

For armor, BaseCost is the cost in armor.2da for the armor's base AC. The armor's base AC is the
ACBONUS from parts_chest.2da, using the part number of the chest as the index into parts_chest.2da.

4.4.2. Multipliers
Multiplier is the sum of the costs of all the Item Properties whose costs are positive. That is:

NegMultiplier is the sum of the costs of all Item Properties whose costs are negative.

If an Item Property has a PropertyName of 15 (Cast Spell), then omit it from the
Multiplier/NegMultiplier totals. It will be handled when calculating the SpellCosts instead.

To calculate the cost of a single Item Property, use the following formula:
ItemPropertyCost = PropertyCost + SubtypeCost + CostValue

Add the ItemProperty's cost to the Multiplier total if it is positive. Add it to the NegMultiplier total if it
is negative.

Note that Item Property Params do not affect Item Property cost.
The PropertyCost, SubtypeCost, and CostValue terms are obtained as described below.

PropertyCost
In itempropdef.2da, get the floating point value in the Cost column, at the row indexed by the
PropertyName Field of the ItemProperty Struct. If the Cost column value is ****, treat it as 0. This
floating point value is the PropertyCost.

SubtypeCost
If the PropertyCost obtained above from itempropdef.2da was 0, then get the ResRef in the
SubTypeResRef column of itempropdef.2da, at the row indexed by the 2PropertyName Field of the
ItemProperty Struct. This is the resref of the subtype table 2da.

In the subtype 2da, get the floating point value in the Cost column at the row indexed by the Subtype
Field of the ItemProperty Struct. This floating point value is the SubtypeCost.

Only get the SubtypeCost if the PropertyCost was 0. If the PropertyCost was greater than 0, then the
SubtypeCost is automatically 0 instead.

CostValue
In iprp_costtable.2da, get the string in the Name column at the row indexed by the CostTable Field in
the ItemProperty Struct. This is the ResRef of the cost table 2da.

In the cost table, get the floating point value in the Cost column in the row indexed by the CostValue
Field in the ItemProperty Struct. This floating point value is the CostValue.

4.4.3. Cast Spell Costs
To calculate the cost of a single Cast Spell Item Property, use the following formula:

CastSpellCost = (PropertyCost + CostValue)* SubtypeCost

The PropertyCost, SubtypeCost, and CostValue terms are obtained in the same way as for non-
CastSpell Item Properties.

After calculating all the CastSpellCost values for all the Cast Spell Item Properties, modify them as
follows:
  • Most expensive: multiply by 100%
  • Second most expensive: multiply by 75%
  • All others: multiply by 50%

After adjusting the CastSpellCosts, add them up to obtain the total SpellCosts value. Use the total
SpellCosts to calculate the total ItemCost using the formula given at the very beginning of Section 4.4.
 
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Riven

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2019, 10:40:58 pm »
Thanks, Orth! Very interesting.

So, currently, we are valuing certain things at 75% of the "lens" price.
Does anyone feel that is too high?
Or that it may be worth it to create our own simplified system?
 
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davidhoff

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2019, 02:29:20 pm »
I always had a gut feel that for items given for credit should be valued at .25 × LP and items taken should be priced at the .75 x LP
 
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Hellblazer

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2019, 07:25:48 pm »
At Cailomel’s for things we can craft we basically calculated the going cost of the cnr plus a little bit more to represent the time and effort of the crafter. Fortunately as Dorg had found out our prices were mostly in line with the 75% or so of the lens price. Hard to do that with non craft-able items. I like Davidhoff Idea of a .25 of lens price for trade in or credit and to keep the 75% of lens price for non craft-able items. It makes total sense.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 07:28:10 pm by Hellblazer »
 
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davidhoff

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2019, 07:53:39 pm »
Just to be clear, what I'm saying is .25 x LP for items given to the store to increase your credit, and .75 x LP for items taken from the store to decrease your credit.  Obviously some things have stated prices like corn, scrolls, etc and those would be as stated.  I think this way customers would not be able to build credit so easy...it's really been too easy to increase your credit, and on the flipside, you have to think hard about what you wana pickup because you'll have less credit probably.  Craftable items obviously can have stated prices based on cost/profit margin.  The LP is good for all the "other" things that come in.
 
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Hellblazer

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2019, 08:18:40 pm »
Just to be clear, what I'm saying is .25 x LP for items given to the store to increase your credit, and .75 x LP for items taken from the store to decrease your credit.  Obviously some things have stated prices like corn, scrolls, etc and those would be as stated.  I think this way customers would not be able to build credit so easy...it's really been too easy to increase your credit, and on the flipside, you have to think hard about what you wana pickup because you'll have less credit probably.  Craftable items obviously can have stated prices based on cost/profit margin.  The LP is good for all the "other" things that come in.

Yep that’s what I meant
 

Riven

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2019, 10:57:08 pm »
I'm open to that idea.
Hoping others will jump on this thread with their two cents....
 

Riven

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2019, 04:26:26 pm »
I originally started this thread with the question of whether the 25% off lens is an inaccurate method of determining value for some items. As it appears to me to be so.

Davidhoff and Hellblazer suggesting: trade-ins of non-priced items be at 75% off lens, purchase of non-priced items at 25% off lens.

I could get on board with that, but it doesn't address the question of whether 75% off lens is fair, or whether we need our own system of X attribute costs Y amount, to determine item prices (non-crafted items).

Also, the 75% off lens for trade-ins/credit, only benefits shops, not customers. But it does do the goals Davidhoff mentioned.

I'd be more inclined to do 50% off lens for trade-ins, 25% off for sales; or just 25% off for both, if we keep 25% off. OR 50% off both for trade-ins and for sales.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Question about Lens Pricing, and potentially changing Lens Pricing
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2019, 04:43:27 pm »
Honestly, I think trade-in values, item-costs, etc. for transactions between PCs should be determined In-Character, on a case-by-case, shop-by-shop basis, rather than decided Out-Of-Character on a 'universal' level. This allows for competition as well as personality and other RP avenues to blossom. The lens price is a useful reference, but honestly, the lens price for an egg is like ten GP, and Steel will pay hundreds of gold pieces per egg, heh.

As for the NPC shops and such, we already have a system (using PC skills so that it has some RP value) that allows for price increases and decreases from the stock NWN values.

All that said, I don't want to discourage discussion on any topic related to Layo and NWN, so don't let me slow you down.
 
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