racial profiling

[teefal]

Reading some threads today, I find myself wondering if it's good or even *expected* RP to adopt more rigidly close-minded attitudes characteristic of medieval times (though certainly not absent in these times).

In modern times, if you see a man in real life walking down your street with a hideously deformed face ... truly scary ... but he's minding his own business, what do you do?   Do you say to the person next to you, "We should call the cops" or "Let's get him" or "what an abomination, his kind is not welcome here" ... ?

More to the point, if you saw a group of twenty-somethings muslims, or african-americans, that you did not recognize, what would you do?  And how is this different from how we're talking about Drows and such?

Reveling in our intolerance of individuals based upon nothing but their race ... it's perhaps good RP, particularly with close-minded characters.  But for *players* to be critical of other players for not doing RP fear and hate on sight ... that to me seems a little creepy.

[Xerina]

It really should totally depend on the char what their response is. I have two elves Aelayenn and Seh'Spar. Seh'Spar likes almost everyone and has no problems with any race, though she thinks the drow are a bit closed off and wishes they would talk to her more, she really wants to pry into drow life.

Ael does not trust drow but doesn't hate them. She is leery of them especially if they are in a group of more then 2 or it is dark out.  But she really dislikes humans or short lived as she calls them. She is really of the mind set of Elves and everyone else. In this mindset drow are bad but still elven so they out rank any other race except surface elves, and surface elves go top down, Wild elves, grey elves, wood elves, sun elves, elves, sea elves, drow, half elves (but only if they follow their elven side and speak elven). Half elves typically rank just above humans, at least until you prove your self to her.

However if you are a human loving elf, especially in hopes of creating a abominable half breed you will pry quickly find your self regulated to somewhere between a dwarf and a human in her eyes. Humans are not automatically hated or anything she will judge you by your merit but if you are not an elf you have allot of work to earn her good graces.  And if you fail to meet her expectations don’t expect her to give you another chance you are automatically regulated to something a little lower then that smelly blob we don’t want to know what it is on the bottom the dwarves boot. Everyone has a chance to prove them self to Ael, one and only one chance. Blow it and she will likely send you treasure hunting in a medusa cave telling you the only thing in there are bats, and since its dark out their out hunting just go in and pick up the gold its past all the life like statues the mad cleric of Ilsare made.


That’s why its called Role Playing you play the role of your character how ever they should act or react. Have I made foes out of good players or people having a bad day? Sure and out of character I know their having a bad day or whatever, but in character I don't and that is what matters. And I think all the characters behind the toon know that and don't take it personally. I always try to send them a tell to let them know its just IC and why I am rude to them.  It can make for some really good RP if it is done right, but you have to watch and make sure it never seems out of character or personnel because OC and personal attacks are not called for nor are they tolerated. We are all here to have fun, and make sure others have fun. I don't care how IC something is if I feel the person is taking it personally I will stop what ever it is and send them a tell letting them know and apologize that it came across wrong. Have fun and make sure those around you have fun, try to do some good role playing while you are at it. And never let anyone tell you how to play your character, but try to keep a steady personality that fits your character and background as well as your alignment.

[Andrexea]

In the word of Layonara there are suppose to be racial tensions.  Unlike our world we dont have a a group of people who say,  live underground raiding the surface world for slaves and killing everyone ealse.  We also dont have the drastic differences between people as we do in Layonara.  With elves, dwarfs, gnomes, drow and such, each with different views on how things should be done and not willing to budge much on there point of view.  And I mean drasticly different points of view.   Sure we have different cultures and religions but the biggest differance between us is basically skin color. 

    Im sure if we had a race like the drow on earth we would have been to war with them most of our lives.  *shrugs*  I personally play a drow and expect some people to hate her for what she is without knowing who she is.  And she expects this as well.  Part of her goal is to show that not all drow are evil butchers and prove herself much like her goddess Az'atta did.  Just my 2 coppers.

[Dorganath]

In the real world, there really is no particular "race" or even ethnicity that can be blamed for or labeled as evil.  At one time or the other in history, nearly all of the world's groups of peoples have committed attrocities, waged wars and done terrible things to other groups of people and then justified it under some flawed pretext.  Yeah, there are exceptions, but generally, it holds true.

On Layonara, there are multiple sentient races, each embodying an archetypical, even stereotypical, ideal.  As a whole, each race fits a certain profile.  Again, as in real life, there are exceptions.  But by default, surface races should be at the very least skeptical and apprehensive about the Drow and other dwellers of the Dark.

In real life, you can't just look at someone and say, "oh yeah, his kind is evil," but when entire races are on the balance evil, it's a lot easier to make assumptions....and they're probably somewhat accurate as well.

[Chuckles_McChuck]

As dorgonath said, you cant say "hey... that things evil" as there are sometimes exceptions, but the drow has done alot of harm to the world on Layonara as well.  I'm not saying you should hate them, but dont you think accepting them with open arm right on meeting them, or because they fought a couple ogres with you (who knows, he might have been only fighting to hone his own skills or to insure his life is safe not the others in the party) is a tad odd as well?

[teefal]

Teefal is a half-elf, and in his bio it says that racial prejudice is one of the primary reasons he left his life with humans and became a ranger.  Grieving his mother (an elf) while growing up feeling different and disliked (wearing a cap to cover his pointy ears), he's sensitive to others who judge others on sight, and empathatic to races and individuals who get judged on sight, like the Drows.  While he doesn't like humans or dwarves all that much, it's because most humans have been hurtful to him, and most dwarves he's known are obnoxious, not his style.  He doesn't believe all humans and dwarves should leave town, he just braces himself when they come near.

In game, Teefal can encourage open-minded attitudes, console those affected, and avoid the most blatantly bigoted characters, as best he can.

Out of game, all I'm saying is ... history is written by the majority, attitudes are fostered by those in power.  How do you know 90% of Drows are evil?   Read it somewhere?    If you haven't known many Drows, then *how do you know*?

Bigotry might seem like a strong word to use, but consider:

Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Some of this sounds like the blanket statements people made about muslims in the wake of 9/11.  Did "they" attack America?   A group of them did.  Did Drows attack Hlint?   A group of them did.  More than that ... how do you know?

Even more obvious is how it feels from the other side.  As an American, I'm stereotyped as an imperialist close-minded money-grubbing uncultured idiot by many in the world, particularly fundamentalists fanning the flames of hatred among their followers.  There are groups that completely believe that by being American, I'm an infidel.  Saying OOC "Hey everyone, here's why you should fear and hate Drows on sight" feels a bit like this to me.

Anyway, I have no problem with people RPing their characters as close-minded.  As I said, I'll RP my character differently. Role-playing gives us the opportunity to play heroes and villians.  It also allows us to play bigots, or oppose them.

And to be clear: I don't believe anyone in these forums is bigoted.  I'm just saying: stop trying to convince me to play my character in a more close-minded fashion, or intimate that I haven't read the history if I walk up and say hi to a Drow.

[teefal]

All that said, there was this tiefling standing nearby while a group of us talked about Rhizome's plans for Milara.  He kept saying "interesting".  

Teefal may be all touchy-feeling in principle, but when talking about such matters while a tiefling listens in.... I turned around and said, "Can I help you?" ... and asked him where he was from, etc.

He could have been a spy for Bloodstone.

[Ayreon]

teefal - 7/13/2005  8:41 PM

Reveling in our intolerance of individuals based upon nothing but their race ... it's perhaps good RP, particularly with close-minded characters.  But for *players* to be critical of other players for not doing RP fear and hate on sight ... that to me seems a little creepy.

I am a music teacher, and I will tell you that criticism (when constructive) breeds progress. Period.

Last night I was pondering the psychological impact that games have on us. (this is probably going to be long)....


**Disclaimer***********************************************

Ok, a few things first. These are just my opinions based on things I have experienced, feel free to disagree. Please be respectful, though. This is not meant to be a preachy sermon, or a ‘you-must-do-this-or-it-will-be-the-end-of-the-world’ thing. I am writing this because I enjoy challenging myself with writing (if only occasionally), and I feel the need to express a few thoughts. I would also like to say that Layo is the only reason I play NWN. I have tried several times to get into it, and I did not find the game that enjoyable until I played Layo. I love it here. It is absolutely incredible. If you wish to disagree with me (and I hope some will help make this a two sided discussion), I sincerely ask that you address the *main ideas*, and not things like “My char is lyke so origin-al. He is totally like a goblin paladin. Lolzzz.” The following musings address character in the intrinsic sense, not the outwardly sense.

************************************************************



The majority of games I have played, particularly those from before the recent wave (perhaps the last year being ‘recent’) treat the user-in single player- as the 'be all-end all.' YOU are the chosen one, the one who will bring balance, the saviour, the hero, etc. Sit back and think of *the majority* of single player campaigns you have played in games. YOU, the primary user, are 'it,' so to speak. We are quite used to being 'the one.' I believe this attitude creeps into RP every so often. I am really glad layo has such high quality RPers, though. This attitude is not as ever-present as I'm sure other servers are.

Most of the layo users ( I say users because this server is a drug, I’m addicted!) I have encountered seem to account for the older portion of the average gamer. There are many adults, young adults, and older teens here (I'm sure there are younger ones as well, like my brother-not quite a teen-who plays here). Picture a Maxwell Boltzmann distribution of gamer age, skewed slightly to the right....that would the average layo player. I would say this, plus an active dev/DM team accounts for the above average maturity levels (behaviourally speaking, of course).

Just based on observation of forums, PCs in game, etc it has also become obvious to me that many people read here. Some people casually-fun novels like Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms- but I also sense that some people might read some deeper literature...or at least paid attention in English class =P.

I see Layo very much in the terms of being a book. There is always an underlying plot, subplots are happening everywhere, and the themes present themselves as they appear. For example, Levkka was with a forest gnome last night, who dealt some really deadly bow damage and saved his life twice. "Cubs" (as he calls the short hlintites), can be much stronger are have more worth than they appear. It was an "Aesop's Fables" sort of lesson for him, but the adventure had a theme.

Now, to what I am getting at...

As far as characters within a book are concerned, a story is often incomplete without the "stock characters" we have come to know. In LOTR and some of the FR trilogies, we see gruff dwarves placed in mixed company with serious adventurers for comic relief. The dark lord stereotype includes characters such as Darth Vader and Palpatine, Sauron, Lord Voldemort, Sephiroth, etc.

In order to have a successful world people must fulfill stock roles. WE NEED STEREOTYPES (a word many confuse with archetypes, which are internal entities). I find the people who do cater to stereotypes are some of the most influential and prominent PCs of layonara. We have guys like Brue, who always make you laugh even in the heat of battle. We have the Ozy, the bitter yet wise old story teller. We have playful couples like Jerran and Milanna, as well as females and males trying to “hook up.” These are all stereotypes, and it is wonderful.

I am not saying these are unoriginal characters, but they fit the structure that the users have layed out for them. They are unique in their own ways, all of them.

Now I know many “red flags” go up at the word “stereotype.” You’re thinking “This jerk is asking me to be like everyone else? No way!!” It has developed quite negative connotations within our language. In terms of characters, however, they are completely necessary in supporting the plot. Imagine if every single layo player pranced around trying to be as unique as possible…the shard would be wrought with conflict and the story would not progress as it has. LUCKILY we have many people who fulfill stereotypical qualities. It also makes me curious as to any acting experience within the server, because they are doing a great job.

This must also be addressed: I AM IN NO WAY ASKING PEOPLE TO FORFEIT ORIGINALLITY. Rather, I am asking people to forfeit control. Why? Because working to control such a dynamic environment is impossible, and is an attempt to restore the single-player mentality that prevails in most games (as mentioned earlier). My thinking is that if we forfeit control, and allow our players to be immersed, our experience as a collective will continue to be great. I believe that all of the great RPers here have done just that….they forfeit control and allow their characters personality and uncontrollable events dictate their actions. Once we forfeit control, we will see stock traits expressed in our characters, and others.  Also bear in mind the variety of types of such characters. Stock characters can account for almost any personality within any form of story telling, whether it be TV, books, or movies.

I think it would be in good practice to look at your character, and how they fit into the world. Base it on things they have done, their personal biographies and experience, their relations with other humans. Perhaps your character is a “damsel in distress” or an “outlaw”. I don’t know….here is a good place to get started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_character
--A comprehensive list of stock characters, as well as another explanation (in case my dull writing doesn’t catch your fancy =P)

Now for part two:


“More to the point, if you saw a group of twenty-somethings muslims, or african-americans, that you did not recognize, what would you do? And how is this different from how we're talking about Drows and such?”

It is different because in the last century our world has shrunk considerably, and minds have been opening. This particular fantasy world is not so luxurious, as our.
 
Historically, especially in and around the Middle East to the UK there has been much religious conflict. (I am not talking about recent events) Today, our standards are much more humane than many centuries ago. How about the crusades? If you were Muslim and 20 Catholics came down the street, you would be frightened during these times. There is still much prejudice, but prejudice has been “hit where it hurts” several times, and people are much more accepting now.


Further Examples and Thoughts:
(they will deal partly with one of the aforementioned parties)

“many stories began to be circulated in the west about the cruelty of Muslims toward Christian pilgrims; these rumors then played an important role in the development of the crusades later in the century.”

Discrimination on both sides led to war. This is not some sort of anti religious fodder, I am using it as an example of bizarre cruelty to fellow man, based on religion. This was enough to have people discriminate, and I thought I would use a similar example to the one you mentioned.

“The Spanish Inquisition was the Inquisition acting in Spain under the control of the Kings of Spain. This Inquisition was the result of the reconquest of Spain from the Muslims and the policy of converting Spanish Jews and Muslims to Christianity. The Inquisition was an important tool in enforcing the limpieza de sangre ("cleanliness of blood") against descendants of converted Jews or Muslims. It was also used as a tool to punish and eliminate homosexuals.”

Again, more discrimination.

**I will not state my stance on ANY of these issues as the ISSUE AT HAND is not religion. I do not frown upon these religions, or religion in general. **NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION, THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND.**

How about the genocides that have occurred both recently and in the past?

Genghis Khan, holocaust, Sudan? You can search the web for more, there are many I would like to list, but I do not want to offend anyone. I sincerely hope no one was offended, but if you are, please PM and I will edit accordingly.

Also, as far as fear of large groups of African Americans is concerned, they were not allowed to meet in such a way. Early in African American freedom, large groups were banned. This was out of prejudice.

I would like to ask again that anyone who wishes to comment on my babbling keeps their ideas focused on the main topics here.  I would also ask that people who DO disagree respond to keep this interesting.

Closing comments:

I really love this place, and do not mean to rile things up or offend anyone. I just feel like writing a whole buncha crap =P. This is by no means an “attack”…nor especially a “personal attack” on anyone I have met, or any of the posters here.

Maybe I should have just made my own thread.
 
(yikes this was about four pages)

[Xerina]

Also remember their is more then one defination of race:
Race
1: A family, tribe, people or nation of hte same stock.
2: A group of individuals within a biological species able to breed together.

We tend to think of hating drow as a human racial matter defination 1.  But Races in D&D are really diffrent species they can't in most cases breed. They are like diffrent breeds of animals. You have all the races of humans present in D&D and many discriminate against each other much like many prejudiced people do in real life. I am a pretty poen minded person and I try to be as unbiased as possible and eliminate any personal prejudice.

But if an Alien space ship lands tomorrow I will not be in the front of the line wanting to shake their hand and offer them pie. I am going to wait and see. If they launch a 20 year war against man kind then start to show up in smaller ships and say Hey we came from the big mother ship that destroyed your capital and enslaved you for the last 20 years, but I'm not like the rest of them.  Well I really doubt I would beleave him. I would go yeah sure your a spy sent here to find how to finish the war beat it.

Thats what the Drow have done in Layo, they have fought the surface for longer then anyone (except mayby Ozy) can remember. They never declared an end tot he war, they still raid. They destroyed Port Hampshire and carry many loved ones off to slavery. Now when the army is stretched thin due to war with Blood, who as far as my In game chars can determine from asking Drow why they have started comming tot he surface in greater number, Blood has not attacked the underdark the drow are free of him so far. SO in a weak state while we are vunerable and far less likely to turn down help, the drow emerge and offer that help.  And that is the main reason people give my char for excepting the Drow we should welcome all allies. The drow have the perfect set up to infiltrate the surface and plan the destruction of their oldest enemy. Who by the way is welcoming them with open arms and giving them their battle plans and stratigy so that once blood is out of the way the Drow can have a clean shot to mop up while everyone go hey what happened.  Think US and Russia after world war 2.  Was kind of the same thing.  After the fighting started to slow and it was the last push every one raced to Berlin so that the other side couldn't control it neither truly trusting their ally of the last several years.

To turst the Drow you are betting your life, the life of your friends and family, and your future to an enemy older then in some cases your race. Most races were created as canon fodder, they were created to fight each other. It is hard to over come your created function. It would be like us giving up a basic need or function like mating. Some can and do, but the VAST majority at some point in life hook up marry and have children. Its what we do. Its a fundamental reason that we are here.

Well if one of Bloods generals walks into Hlint tomorrow and says hey I thought it over and I want to help you fight blood no strings attached, are you going to trust him or send him packing for the spy that he most likely is?

Just something to put it in perspective, we are not talking about the old red, yellow black, and white racial problems here it is species. And yes their are halfelves and elflings, and half giants but they are suppose to be RARE and generaly not excepted by either society if you read the hand books for D&D.  Also people attack a goblin that follows a player into Hlint like a swarm of locust, but a goblin with a name tag they don't even glance at, why? Goblins are obvisouly not excepted so if you don't knkow that goblin why are you inviting him over for dinner and an Ale?

Some people are going to play friendly to everyone and thats fine if it fits our Bio and character concept. Seh'Spar likes everyone because she can learn something from them, but she wont kill a goblin that don't attack her first either.  She would galdy travel to the lower level of the goblin mine and chat with their leader about goblin history if the goblins would let her.  She also does not honestly fight against Blood she thinks he is crazy but he also has a legitament claim at least as much of one as the curent leaders. She doesn't like his method, but she would be more then happy to sit with him and chat about history and magical theory over dinner. Honestly if you told her she could end the war by putting a dagger into him, she wouldn't do it. That is likly to change over time as she witness more of the war and strugle it causes around her, but to lose a figure of histroy, and his knowledge would horrify her far more then what she has witnessed so far.  She also would never destroy a artifact even if it is evil and capable of massive destruction, its lore and knowledge and should be perserved. So yes she happly chats with the Drow or any other race, does that means she trusts them? No of course not, but she will try to gleam information from them by being friendly.

Ael would kill blood even if it cost her her life and the life of all those around her to end the war. But then again hes human. Ael is far less tolerant and kills every goblin she sees, if she could kill the PC goblins she would. Ael does not group or talk to them, and if she does she is very cold to them and treats them like a slave.  Poor V had it bad when he first met her she always refered to him as goblin, and only talked to the mage in the group even thought the mage never talked.  (It was dark in the crypt and I thought he was mephit when I got the group invite or I would have turned them down. Then after a bit I realized it was a player ran PC so I was like Mage is that thing your pet? He proved him self a worthy companion and Ael would gladly travel anywhere with him now, but she still dislikes every other goblin PC or not.) So even after one goblin has proven not all goblins are bad she will shoot first and not bother to question it later. Why because goblins are evil, sure their is pry 1% of goblins that are not evil, she is not going to sort thru them to kill the other 99. She will kill them all and figure the good one should understand he died for a greater good.

I can't believe I'm defending racism and prejudice, but it can be good Role playing.

[Diamondedge]

I think some people are getting a bit too edgy with some of the stuff I've been posting lately. Namely the get out posters. Perhaps my dwarf spitting on drow as he passes by them.

In regards to this, I would like to make a few comments.

1. I am playing my dwarf as a dwarf, just as I play my elf as an elf. If you do not know how the people of the race you are playing generally act according to D&D guidelines, I strongly suggest you figure it out. Ask people, investigate sources. You will soon find exactly why dwarves don't like elves and why elves don't like dwarves. You'll find out why nobody likes drow except the 'loonies'.

It is also my belief that there wouldn't be nearly so many drow characters as there are on Layonara if nobody on earth read Salvatore's books. I strongly suggest you do read his work; it is strong D&D 'literature' if you will, and really are great stories. However, in order to properly understand the stories going on that he writes, you have to realize that A) Drizz't is not your average drow. For all intents and purposes he is an ebon skinned moon elf ranger. B) Nobody accepts Drizz't except for those he is closest too. Even people whom have heard the amazing stories about him and the wonderful things he has done view him with suspiscion and even hate. He is drow.

Salvatore looks very closely in depth at Drow culture. They are murderers, thieves, liars and wholly and completely evil. At some points throughout drow culture, a drow may be born with different 'ideals' about everything. Usually male, as the females are very oppressive and the society is based around them and gives them significant power. However, oftentimes these philisophs of dark elf culture are killed because of their own compassion. I would like to recount the training excercise Drizz't went through while attending the Melee Magthere or whatever it's called, when he 'saved' a drow, and they swore to work together. That same drow put Drizz't out of the competition, seeing the ranger's skill as a threat to his own pending victory.

There you have it. Compassionate drow do not last long. It is amazing that so many of them have found their way out of the underdark and into Hlint, but I won't express my views on the mushrooming population of Drow. A certain friend of mine and I share a particular ideal involving Drows in Hlint and Too Many as key ideas.

It is therefore natural for any race of beings to hate the drow; Every 'goodly' race as Salvatore puts it, has at least some code of ethics. Dwarves and Elves will hear pleas for surrender and consider them. Humans also will, but it is less likely as the short lived nature of the race tends to cause their code of ethics to be random and unique.

Drow, quite simply, won't. Not unless there is something significant to gain; Tactical advantage. And even that won't last long as they will surely either put the prisoner to death or slavery.

If you are the player of a drow character, and you are posting here 'begging for pity' or sympathy or what not, you made the choice to play a drow character. If you wanted to be everyone's friend, you should have been a halfling cleric.

Er... 2. or 3: RP is RP. If you think for a second that the purpetrators of IC racism towards drow are also racist OOC or IRL, I find you sadly mistaken and perhaps a bit confused. However, it is my belief that this sort of 'understanding' came about due to people being a bit peeved at the way their drow is being treated and thus thinking themselves in the right mind of revenge.


RPing an open minded character can be a very easy and fun experience, but it doesn't create the same RP environment as one where characters tend to the thoughts of their race, and are closed minded about everything. Such an environment breeds conflict which in turn breeds constant RP on a completely different level.

Just think what would happen if dwarves kept to themselves, didn't jest nearly as much as they do, and were very serious about everything. Just think what would happen if elves never talked without turning their noses up first, and held a very aloof, snobbish tilt to everything they did. We would experience a very different environment than one where everyone is everybody else's friend.

Yes, that's right. I'm advocating IC Racism. But only because I haven't yet met an elf that turned his nose up to my smelly, hairy dwarf. Nor have I met a dwarf that's muttered 'Durned Elfies' under his breath yet.

I can proudly say Turor will continue spitting on drow as he sees them. So it's a good idea to keep your hoods up and bodies well cloaked, drow!

That is all.

[Xerina]

I for one like the RP valaue of your dwarf spitting on the drow and posting get out, at least OOC. I was suprised when you pushed me aside in Hlint calling me a durned elf, when I was chatting away with someone, but you just kept walking before I could finish what I was typing to them and type a reply. IC my characters who have only seen you and not talked to you don't like you and border on hate, and hey we havn't even spoken, other then a few rude comments you threw at me.  You have been catagorized as a typical small minded dwarf, and should we ever talk expect simular treatment in turn. Luna will pry give you a verbal word lashing when you encounter her as well. But hey the elf dwarves war wasn't that long ago especially when you like to be almost a thousand. Maybe we should drive the dwarves back to their mines.  Except Noss he can stay and make weapons and armor for the elven army.

I agree with most of what you said about Drizzit and the Salvatore books also. Don't hate me for hating you for hating me. Oh and if you would stop dragging your Ox around long enough for someone to RP an encounter with you you passed a never snobby elf a couple times, usualy with a What? Which if Im not mistaken is a hello message, then you and your ox poped in the zone transation and were gone. No I don't have hot keys set up for racial bashing nor will I. But Aelayenn is very much a Elf first everyone else a distant third, nature is second. You are either The people on not people. Its hard to get that impression from her in casual conversation other then she refers to you as a short lived or vile something or other, and thats hard to get because she will switch to elvish to insult you. Their by mocking your ignorance as well. DOn't say you havn't been snubbed just because you can't under stand me or didn't waint long enough for me to type it. Like I said my elves do not like you and if you ever stop long enough from dragging you ox around you might learn something.

Also you have used up your 1 civil responce from both my characters so any hope of help from her or her circle of friends is pretty much shot.  That means that if she is in the woods or anywhere else and you get attacked by her mobs it is highly unlikly that she will help you. Its not greifing because I would never do it on purpose but if your in the woods like I encountered you twice today, and you are attacked by spiders or what not don't run to the durned elf for help, because she will flert away to the trees laughing at your dispair. (I would never train you or spawn something to kill you or hinder your flight, but I would calmly stand aside and let nature avenge herself on the defilier striping it for profit, hense the need of an ox)

[EdTheKet]

Out of game, all I'm saying is ... history is written by the majority, attitudes are fostered by those in power. How do you know 90% of Drows are evil? Read it somewhere? If you haven't known many Drows, then *how do you know*?

[/FONT]
    Regarding history (as I tend to be somewhat involved in that )
    Dark Elves are known to be evil, this is not speculation, this is a fact:  The Dark Elves have a millennia spanning history of War and Destruction. Bear in mind that there was a great Betrayal around -2311 which led the elves to separate (see the timeline). Agreed, this is almost 3700 years ago, but since elves can live to about 700 years, this is hardly long ago from an elvish perspective. So throwing the past away because it is long ago and elves and dark elves hating each other is stereotypical, does not really apply if you look at it from this perspective.
  If we go forward in time, the Dark Elves captured the human city of Westgate in the year -103 (see the timeline), they destroyed the city of Port Hampshire in the year 843 (see the timeline, this is only about 500 years ago). I am sure if you ask several characters in Hlint, they can tell you the towns of Hlint and Haven were also nearly destroyed by the Dark Elves in the not-too-distant past. They also tried to stop all crafting by destroying and blowing up nearly every crafting location in Mistone.
    Then at the end of last year or so (real-time) they laid siege to Hlint and nearly occupied it.
    Then more recently, they started capturing people, poisoning them with a poison that will kill them if they oppose the drow. They then proceeded to lay siege to Spellgard, occupy it for a few weeks, then left after getting whatever it was they needed.
     Therefore, treating them with an amount of distrust or even hostility is judging them on their past which is filled with evil deeds.
     Claiming your character doesn't know about drow is very hard to justify. Dark Elves have been committing evil acts for millennia. This will have worked their way into local folklore, for example, when your character was a child he was probably told by his parents things like “Do not stray from home too far, else the Dark elves will take you” or something along those lines.
     So your character has probably heard all his/her life that Dark Elves  are greedy, dangerous, treacherous creatures who attack whenever they can and then as an adventurer you have surely been on quests where Dark Elves were involved (as enemies) or heard stories of such adventures.
     As for tolerance, I appreciate the fact the some characters are more tolerant than others, but there is a big difference between being tolerant (e.g. not immediately killing a Dark Elf the moment they walk down the street) and being friendly/healing them without being asked to (especially when you've never even seen that person before. But this can also apply to other encounters, not just drow).
     
     To conclude, I'd like to provide some food for thought regarding ability scores for intelligence and wisdom.
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons (and 10 is about average according to AD&D). Wisdom determines your character’s willpower, common sense, perception and intuition.
     So intelligence allows you to process information, it is wisdom that represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings (so insight). So in my opinion, if you do not have an above average Wisdom score, your character is not likely to be very tolerant.

[Xerina]

To conclude, I'd like to provide some food for thought regarding ability scores for intelligence and wisdom.

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons (and 10 is about average according to AD&D). Wisdom determines your character’s willpower, common sense, perception and intuition.



 So intelligence allows you to process information, it is wisdom that represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings (so insight). So in my opinion, if you do not have an above average Wisdom score, your character is not likely to be very tolerant.

---------------------------------------

Excellent point Ed and one I had not thought about, now I may have to go back and check my bards wisdom I think its 12, but her tolearance is more due to her desire to learn and aquire knowledge esp history and lore regardless of where it comes from.

[Ayreon]

Diamondedge - 7/15/2005  1:11 AM
It is also my belief that there wouldn't be nearly so many drow characters as there are on Layonara if nobody on earth read Salvatore's books. I strongly suggest you do read his work; it is strong D&D 'literature' if you will, and really are great stories. However, in order to properly understand the stories going on that he writes, you have to realize that A) Drizz't is not your average drow. For all intents and purposes he is an ebon skinned moon elf ranger. B) Nobody accepts Drizz't except for those he is closest too. Even people whom have heard the amazing stories about him and the wonderful things he has done view him with suspiscion and even hate. He is drow.

Bang on. In the Icewindale trilogy Drizzt (a drow) becomes fairly well known amongst the ten towns as a protector. He had fought to keep their freedom from tyranny, basically guards the outskirts, and has done much to keep evil from the towns.

People still don't trust him.

I also recall when he summoned a demon that his foe was working with (he remembered the demon's name, and scribbled some makeshift runes to contain him)...the demon did not suspect anything at first because Drizzt is drow. They interact with such evil frequently.

However, the demon was highly concerned when he saw that Drizzt bared the signa of some other nature god...can't remember her name.It was a "good" diety. The demon promptly attacked him. It was so obvious that something was not right when the demon saw the signa of a nonevil god.

[Ayreon]

Xerina - 7/15/2005  2:53 AM

To conclude, I'd like to provide some food for thought regarding ability scores for intelligence and wisdom.

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons (and 10 is about average according to AD&D). Wisdom determines your character’s willpower, common sense, perception and intuition.



 So intelligence allows you to process information, it is wisdom that represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings (so insight). So in my opinion, if you do not have an above average Wisdom score, your character is not likely to be very tolerant.

---------------------------------------

Excellent point Ed and one I had not thought about, now I may have to go back and check my bards wisdom I think its 12, but her tolearance is more due to her desire to learn and aquire knowledge esp history and lore regardless of where it comes from.

Those with higher intelligence and lower wisdom are even more apt to this discrimination. So basically they would process  a lot of information, but would not be wise enough to see past heritage,skin colour,reputation,etc.

Just because one is apt, does not mean it is  required. Every character fits a different role, your bard as an example.

The issue that was brought up a few days ago was that not enough people seem to understand drow, or are just too tolerant. Some people should be tolerant, or even friendly. Some people (a lot more people) should not be. That's all...

I think I'm done with the whole drow discussion thing now. Peace.

[Frendh]

I doubt wisdom decides how tolerant you are.
Same as wisdom doesn't decide how aggressive,
meek or funny you are.

[teefal]

A few thoughts & clarifications...

Neither me or my character is saying, "Give the Drow a break."  Instead I'm saying, "Allow me to RP my character as tolerant, given the knee-jerk racial discrimination he's experienced personally, being a half-elf among humans that don't like elves."

Some of the responses in this thread seem to blur the IC vs OOC distinction.  As I said, it's cool to roleplay your character however you want, and perhaps useful and normal to roleplay characters as stereotypically close-minded.  None of my concerns have anything to do with IC conduct or attitudes.  I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

My concerns are about the posts that say that we *as players* are doing it wrong ... that we're not RPing correctly.

Whether you're talking historical close-mindedness, or current day close-mindedness, there's always been those who could see that "There is no them" and that individual experience is truer than generalized conditioning.

I don't think it takes a terrific wisdom score to grok that.  Anyone that's suffered intolerance can see when someone else is suffering intolerance, and can feel compassion about it and not wish to do the same.   The wisest, smartest, people can also miss it (though I expect high wisdom would make close-mindedness much less likely.)

Histories are sweeping generalizations, and written by the winners.  IMO, chaotic characters are less likely to buy the accepted worldview about something also, less likely to believe history and gossip and childhood tales.

In character, if you were to say to Teefal, "Drows are evil, can't you see this?"  He would say, "Not the Drows I've met.  It was *humans* that killed my mother.  It was *humans* that took our child."

Would he have heard nightmare tales of Drows?   He heard nightmare tales of *elves*.  So he learned to distrust the tales, since they were talking about his mother.  And it was humans telling these tales, the same humans that didn't want him to be an elf.  So why would he trust *anything* said about Drows?

Again, all I'm asking is that the OOC forum posters allow people to RP their characters the way they want.

[Ar7]

I currently do not have the time to read the entire thread, but nevertheless I have a thought I wish to write here. Please excuse me if a similar thing has been said already. I will take the time to go through the thread later.

Many say that a character should be open-minded as not all drow are evil. They say drow should be given a chance, since they have done many bad things as a race, but it is not a fact that they are all evil by themselves. But if you look at the descriptions of drow dieties and drow as a race, then it is said that they, themselves, say that they want to be evil. They as a community respect drow that can kill, torture, betray. They believe that they are better and that others can and should serve them. With drow themselves saying that they want to make all other races slaves how can you even think about giving them a chance?

[teefal]

Hmmm.  Is it assumed that characters have read about the other dieties and read descriptions of races? In other words, is it assumed that our characters have read the Layonara Campaign Guide, or its equivalent?

OOC, I don't know much about Mohammed or Allah or Islam, only what I've heard people say, most of which seems biased either way.  I wouldn't be able to tell if something someone was saying about Islam were true, nor perhaps would Teefal know about the Drow deities, other than hearing the bias he has learned to discount.

In Nazi Germany, scientists "proved" that Jews were animals, and many people bought it. A hundred years earlier, the Supreme Court said the same thing about blacks.  If your character is distrustful of authority, why would he even believe the Layonara Guide, if he found it in a library somewhere?

Saying, "Drows are evil because history tells us so" isn't gonna convince someone who thinks history is a lot of bunk.

[Scipio]

This is such a silly topic. It is a topic that can only arise in a society as safe and spoiled as ours. Imagine if you are some European peasants and a group of armed Mongol horsemen, whom you know have destroyed all the villages to your east, show up. Are you going to say, 'lets be tolerant and judge them as individuals'? No, you will fight or flee. The same if you are in Africa circa 1600 and a group of armed Portugeuse show up. This happy, politically correct bubble, that people who have time to play hours of video games in(i.e. all of us) are living in, is a unique time and place of relative peace. I see no reason why Drow shouldn't be killed on sight. I hate it when modern thinking shows up in games. Fortunately, the creators of Layonara haven't let it dominate druid RP(some PW worlds they are all PETA activists with spells). It is unfortunate that the creators HAVE allowed this in regards to drow.