racial profiling

[Ayreon]

Heh.

I've said maybe 10 or so times in various threads on the topic that I wasn't trying to dictate how EVERYONE reacts to drow. I was raising awareness, because obviously many people seem to not quite understand the race.

I guess we all see what we want to see...

I will adress some other things in seperate posts...

[Ayreon]

teefal - 7/15/2005  10:52 AM

Hmmm.  Is it assumed that characters have read about the other dieties and read descriptions of races? In other words, is it assumed that our characters have read the Layonara Campaign Guide, or its equivalent?

OOC, I don't know much about Mohammed or Allah or Islam, only what I've heard people say, most of which seems biased either way.  I wouldn't be able to tell if something someone was saying about Islam were true, nor perhaps would Teefal know about the Drow deities, other than hearing the bias he has learned to discount.

In Nazi Germany, scientists "proved" that Jews were animals, and many people bought it. A hundred years earlier, the Supreme Court said the same thing about blacks.  If your character is distrustful of authority, why would he even believe the Layonara Guide, if he found it in a library somewhere?

Saying, "Drows are evil because history tells us so" isn't gonna convince someone who thinks history is a lot of bunk.

I'll go in order here.

I'm sure many PCs will be ignorant to the OOC "guide knowledge." There is no problem there. It's good RP to not know everying (read stock characters above). But, for example, if your character is around Hlint, he/she MUST be aware of the attacks on the town. Unless they spend LITTLE or no time there, they might not know. There is ** 1,800 **  imagined NPC villagers in Hlint. These attacks were very RECENT (i'm not sure of the time line, but much much less than 100 years). (people have been ingnoring that fact every time it is brought up)

Lets rewind a century or two here. Today's humanistic concept of "relative truth" was nonexistant. If you were lucky enough to have access to some sort of crude media (newspaper perhaps?), that would be all you would ever hear. You would believe it. Bottom line. Small issues within your own circle of acquaintance would be perceivably more arguable. However, these small issues would not deal with more grandoise topics of *entire cultures*.

If someone told you something biased about Allah two hundred years ago -perhaps even half a century ago- you would not have seen the opposing bias. Therefore you would have only known one account. Think for a minute of Joseph Stalin. He was a master propagandist. He led his people to believe that the same despair that was present in his country was the same for all countries. Everyone bought it.

People are forgetting the *world has shrunk*. If you want to learn about a god  OOC, you have an enormous amount of information available. Seeing as you can read, books are available to you. A higher percentage of the population can read nowadays. Seeing as you own a computer, there are many software encyclopedias available. Seeing as you have a net connection, you can contact authorities on many such topics directly, as well as research the billions of available websites. Things have changed, no?

Perhaps some have distrust for history. In my opinion, realistically that would be extremely uncommon.

I think you believe those who are in the same camp as me on this subject are attacking people who communicate with drow. This is not the case. The *only* issue at hand was that the general layo populace is being too drow friendly.

If it is *in character* for you to enjoy the company of all good sentients, then please do so. (that will be the 11th time in 2 days =) )

The question that was raised is that it is very suspicious that most Hlintites have such unconditional love for its occupants. ZV was adamant about explaining that 4 drow attacks occured in recent times.  Recent. I'm sure at least a few of 1,800 citizens remember when their strong walls were penetrated, and assassins stole their feeling of safety from them. (more realisticly, all or most of them.)

[Ayreon]

Scipio - 7/15/2005  11:11 AM

This is such a silly topic. It is a topic that can only arise in a society as safe and spoiled as ours. Imagine if you are some European peasants and a group of armed Mongol horsemen, whom you know have destroyed all the villages to your east, show up. Are you going to say, 'lets be tolerant and judge them as individuals'? No, you will fight or flee. The same if you are in Africa circa 1600 and a group of armed Portugeuse show up. This happy, politically correct bubble, that people who have time to play hours of video games in(i.e. all of us) are living in, is a unique time and place of relative peace. I see no reason why Drow shouldn't be killed on sight. I hate it when modern thinking shows up in games. Fortunately, the creators of Layonara haven't let it dominate druid RP(some PW worlds they are all PETA activists with spells). It is unfortunate that the creators HAVE allowed this in regards to drow.

LOL at the PETA activist w/spells...

Scipio, you nailed it.

[Rayenoir]

I'm inclined to disagree a bit only on the basis of my character, and those with similar experiences.  While you're totally right about the peasants with a limited sphere of experience, there *are* those characters that are not originally from the plane that Layonara is on.  (I'm going to use Rayenoir's point of origin as an example)

Sigil can be a really nasty place because of all of the things that make their home there.  For those unfamiliar with the Planescape setting, the Lady of Pain keeps people from acting out on each other in dramatic ways.  This is why, in the City of Doors, you can have illithids rubbing shoulders with planar elves, and Lawful Good pit fiends spring up (and yet, due to their subtypes still ping as all of Lawful, Good, *and* Evil alignments when someone detects it magically).  Not everything is as it seems, and not everything is as you've heard, especially where such things happen.  Some characters have legitimate reason to wait and see how a given race is going to act when encountering it, either through inexperience or the very opposite and having seen things that go against the stereotype.

...and here's the kicker:  other than that, I totally agree with you.  While some characters are justified in acting fairly to the non-evil Dark Elves (and other such things) right off the bat for the reasons I've given and others, there are way too many characters without these reasons who aren't roleplaying the "hate first and ask questions if a reason arises" attitude that they'd more likely have.

The thing is, the common people of places like Hlint keep being brought up.  Unless the GMs are willing to bring in NPCs to portray these and run the dark elf PC's out of the respective towns, I really don't think the attitudes of the "common people" are really that relelvant.

[Imperious]

But the difference is...we're not talking about an armed group of Drow intent on raiding...we're talking about individual Drow, and that's an important distinction...and please, it has nothing to do with political correctness!  Although I did think the PETA reference was funny…

Any character is going to be fearful of an armed group of anything, including (and most especially) Drow. Of course. I know the difference between an armed group of Drow marauders and one Drow sitting in an inn in Hlint having an ale.

And there's a huge difference. That's where our own personal experiences, prejudices, come into play. As a character, and I suspect most other characters have had this experience, I have yet to see any single individual Drow (PC) do anything evil. So while I'm being bombarded with "Drows are evil" (and trust me, i know IC and OOC as a race they almost always are) and seeing them spit upon, silly signs, etc, my individual experiences with the Drow PCs are completely 180 degrees different.  So don't tell me I've fallen for the "Oh, I'm not like the rest of them" argument" or that I’m being soft. I haven't "fallen" for anything. Trust me, when I see a war band of Drow coming to attack me, I’ll know what to do, thanks (and it will probably be run very fast in the other direction!).  

Maybe this is a catch-22 for Layo, I don't know.  We don't allow evil PC's (or at least they're rare and must be RP'ed over the long haul) in Layo, so the only individual Drow PCs that are out there are probably good or at least neutral Drow. Thus, interacting with them brings a different sense of the Drow than when we see them as a race overall with their ravenous war bands “eating the hearts of babies”...maybe we need some individual Drows PCs that are in fact, quite evil….

Again, I have no problem with people RP’ing prejudices, etc. nor do I think anyone else has said that. My two cents worth, and while I may sound a little prickly here, am enjoying the discussion…some good thoughts on both sides.

[Eight-Bit]

Actually, I believe a character should be as tolerant or ignorant as they want to be. Matilda and Llunienique are very polite, and even if they have prejudices towards other player races they will not voice them. Key, however, being my favorite character, will openly speak just about anything that comes to mind in that regard. Elves, Gnomes, Drow, Humans. Just about everything that isn't her she'll dislike, or like, at any given time. Gosh, CN is hard to play.  

[Scipio]

I was just using the 'armed band' as a historical analogy. A lone drow can be, and often is, quite dangerous. A lone drow mage or assassin would be just as threatening to Hlint as the Portuguese slave ship would be appearing off the coast of an African village.
I don't want to dwell on the issue because I think Layonara is a pretty cool PW but I just get tired of so many drow. They would be less popular if there were real RP drawbacks to playing one. Maybe negative NPC reactions? Someone mentioned that since all the villagers are imaginary, that the point is moot. Not so. If the NPCs that give out quests refuse to deal with drow, it would be a wonderful touch.

[Scipio]

If I may elaborate on my last post. Imagine you walk into your favorite nightclub and see a bearded Arab with a Kalishnikov. That would be the equivalent of seeing a drow adventurer in the inn.

[Xerina]

Nice analogy. Let us not forget the drow in Hlint are Armed in full battle armor and most have their sword drawn strolling down the middle of the street.

[Zhofe]

Then again, you must realize, that our characters are not the average. We are adventurers, warriors and wanderers who have risen above the standard, and not only that, but as PCs in the Layonara campaign, we have been called by a great golden dragon to do battle with the evil here.

That is to say, our characters are quite above the "normal" people, and may very well not act like the common man. I believe it would be a stretch for our characters to make up even 1% of the entire population of this world as set out in the handbook, and that would be including long gone characters.

If you've ever seen a DM take control of Garrent, you know that the common person hates drow. It's just a fact that as player characters, we are not common. We have different sets of ideals and prejudices.

[Ayreon]

K, i guess 11 times were not enough...

A lot of people seem to be on the defensive about their chars here...I have said (since my first post on this topic on another thread) that people should RP their characters roles accordingly, and the whole topic was brought up for awareness purposes, as far as I can see. I know for a fact that it is most certainly *not* in character for *everyone* to love drow. That is all. Please take what I say at face value, and do not imply I, nor the others in my camp, are saying that everyone should hate drow.

So inclusion, please RP your characters based on who they are. Some people should see no problem with individual drow. Many should.

And just an FYI, my primary char is drow

[Ayreon]

Zhofe - 7/15/2005  12:55 PM

Then again, you must realize, that our characters are not the average. We are adventurers, warriors and wanderers who have risen above the standard, and not only that, but as PCs in the Layonara campaign, we have been called by a great golden dragon to do battle with the evil here.

That is to say, our characters are quite above the "normal" people, and may very well not act like the common man. I believe it would be a stretch for our characters to make up even 1% of the entire population of this world as set out in the handbook, and that would be including long gone characters.

If you've ever seen a DM take control of Garrent, you know that the common person hates drow. It's just a fact that as player characters, we are not common. We have different sets of ideals and prejudices.

Please read what I wrote on "stock characters." Some of the best RPers and most prominant figures of layo submit to *very important* stereotypes. I am sure they do so knowingly, and it was what makes them fantastic and outstanding. This sort of attitude of being "above average" is adressed as well. It is quite unhealthy for a strong RP base.

I should have also mentioned Matilda on that list of great RPers, I was going to, and forgot. She is one of my (OOC) favourite characters (although Ayreon doesn't particularly like her that much, hehe).

K, i'm going to try and stay away from this thread now. I probably won't, but I'm going to try

I would also ask that people reread Scipio's posts. He is absolutely correct on modern world thinking permeating fantastical ficticious realms. Throughout history (which has closer semblance to a more medieval-based fantasy world) hatred on an individual basis for the group you belong to was extremely prominent. This is fact, and please bear it in mind.

And one last time, I would ask those who's PC's character traits allow for such open mindedness to continue to entertain drow companions. However, a close examination to determine the openmindedness of your character is certainly in order.

Ayreon is awaiting those who wish to befriend him. The times where he has faced prejudice however, were the times *I* have been faced with the best roleplaying I have seen.

[Diamondedge]

The title of the thread is racial profiling, and it seems to be focusing primarily on the concept of tolerance or acceptance of drow adventurers.

Many good points have been provided for this thread, though I fear there are some key issues that many people are overlooking, probably due to stubborness.

Every server that I have played before Layonara has had a very VERY strict mandate on drow characters. I.E. Not a lot of 'em. They were always supposed to be evil, and yes, they always were, unless someone didn't know the pre-req. and created a good drow anyways.

Case in point was myself and my neutral good half-drow on the very previous server to this one. The trouble was, nobody but the DMs would treat this 'drow' as a drow, instead befriending her, and making her everybody's buddy. Even after she murdered someone in cold blood (long story) the people continued to trust in her and hold her in high esteem.

And this is what is happening, in my opinion, on Layonara. The drow population has sky rocketed over the past few months. You can log on now, and 30% of the characters will be drow. It's a given. The populace should be alarmed at this. What if this new population of drow adventurers is a covert strike team sent from the underdark. The thing is, your character doesn't know what's the truth concerning a drow character. All he really knows is, there's a huuuuge population of them now.

It would be appropriate to greet this drow populace with suspiscion, but we cannot tell you how to RP your character; Every character will react uniquely to the drow.

And about the point of 'our characters have risen above the norm'... Yes, they've risen above it. But they grew up among it, so it's safe to assume that the adventurers would carry many of the thoughts of the general populace, their beliefs, code of ethics, and so forth.

I await the day when a farmer will come along and yell at a drow for scaring his chickens. DMs, make it happen. Do it when Turor's around so I can watch. Tee hee.

[teefal]

Actually, I think there were quite a few more "history rebels" in the last 2000 years than we might think.  Certainly many of the most influential thinkers advocated that you look at the party line with a grain of salt:  Socrates, Jesus, Paine, Jefferson, Thoreau, Gandi spring immediately to mind.  I'm sure there are many others, many that weren't written about.

Did the masses follow the closest cultural dogma without much reflection?   Sure.  They still do.  But isn't being a chaotic adventurer a bit different than being in the masses?  

I disagree with your arguments that we're not being true to history because of an open-minded approach. There have always been people who see individuals and not stereotypes.  It is not a recent idea.  Probably the biggest example is Jesus, with his "don't throw stones", "love your enemy", "mary magdalen is alright with me" stuff.  Yeah, tons of people practice things a little differently, but there has always been people that see past the cultural patterns and see the real people around them.  A thousand years before Jesus was the Tao-Te-Ching which was written in very, very violent times, and advocated the same approach.  In fact most spiritual leaders advocate similiar goals, though their followers often fall short of them.

My objection is to players who see other players walk up and say hi to a Drow and *judge* them for it.  My responses here stem from a frustration with others essentially saying, "Make your character more bigoted. It's how the game works. It's truer to history. It's what they did years ago.  It's what you would do if your town was attacked."

Look, I'm a New Yorker.  Tell me about towns getting attacked, and I'll tell you about floating ash, waiting to hear if friends made it home, and that pit in my stomach whenever I look at the skyline.  Tell me about Mongolians with weapons, and I'll tell you about riding the subways in the 80s or walking through Central Park at night.  Tell me about Drows walking through town, and I'll tell you about muslims in the street, or running shops, or going to school.  Tell me about this bubble we're supposedly in.

Again, I'll try to be clearer:

1) It's cool for you to do anything you want with your character.

2) My only concern is when you tell me what I should do with mine.  This includes repeated appeals that we should all RP drows "better" ... ie, fear and hate them on sight.

[Zhofe]

I think Teefal sums it up very well.

We are all going to RP our characters how we want. In character I may say that hating others is wrong, or I may throw a rock at you can chase you out of town, but OOC, I have to say that if everyone RPed the way I wanted I wouldn't have near as much fun here. Diversity in opinions really makes this place a real, living, breathing world, even with the limits of the system, and the fantasy of the setting.

And I apologize if we have struck any painfull cords with you Teefal, it wasn't what we meant to do. The idea of these posts is to attempt to improve things, for everyone.

[teefal]

It's cool, I'm not upset at all.  As I said at the beginning, a bit creeped out maybe, but honestly I spoke up as a reflex, for those who might get upset but be less vocal.  There's quite a few people in our world that suffer from discrimination.  Arguing for it in any form is likely to set off a few alarms, whether we hear about them or not.

[Zhofe]

I understand, and I think that the arguement of those people is that these characters should be getting more flak than they are. For instance, Hlint could really be considered alot like Alabama right now, and Drow like a Muslim wearing the stereotypical garments. It obviously isn't right, but wouldn't you sit back and say "What!?" if they were welcomed with open arms all the time?

I don't think anyone here wants anyone to be hated, but rather wants to see different RP.

Sorta like how no one really wants to see discrimination, but if Gone With the Wind was remade to be politically correct we would all spontaniously combust ...

[teefal]

Actually, I'm seeing RP possibilities here.  The influx of Drows, the Az'atta thing, the necromancy thing.

Think what the British thought about the American revolution.  Most thought "our heroes" were crackpots... criminals.

Could be this influx of Drows is really a group of freedom fighters in the making ... persecuted by their own kind, and now outsiders... looking to find a niche somewhere in the world.

"Until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes ... there is war."

(of course in layo, eye color has a whole different meaning too)

[Zhofe]

That IS a good idea. I think that some of the players have been trying to get at something like that.

[teefal]

Well, I'm in.  I'll go to the secret meetings if they'll have me.  Hey, I can pass as human.  Might be useful