Removing ECDQ's

[jrizz]

Ar7 - 4/27/2006  10:12 AM

The problem is not in ECDQs, the problem is that it is too easy to get to 20.

*throws a stone* I dont know what world you play in but it took Glenn 2 months to get from 13 to 14 and now 14 to 15 is going just as slow. The XP system is fine. I think you are looking at the small group of players that only play during quests and have pretty much given up RP (witty banter during a quest is not really RP, but it is fun). I have more to say but I think I will stop there

[miltonyorkcastle]

There are a lot more Level 20's because those people have had the most time to play, have been in LOTS of quests, and the soul mother has been gone.  Most were not because of massive monster killing.  The rest that have reached 20th have just been here long enough and their leveling just happened to coincide with these other "super-questers" as I'll call them.  I make quite a few quests these days, though I didn't used to, but amazingly, there are many that have consistently made 3-4 quests a week, or more.

I'm not saying this is "bad" or "good,"  just pointing it out.

[Chongo]

I'm pretty sure Pankoki addressed this post response regarding levelling and max capacity of higher levels about a year and a half ago.  And it remains dead-on in my opinion.  I'd dig it up but I need to get truckin' here soon.

Also, from the likely perspective of the working staff, asking for script changes is maybe a bit presumptuous.  This death system that is currently in place is fantastic.  I mean that... it's fantastic.  It is a non-punitive evolution of how PW's go about dealing with death,  it brings realism and a much closer look as to how players should roleplay their previous demise.  Sure, it can be tweaked, but since *I'm* not the one that's going to have to script it... I'll probably sit back and relax while the workers make the decisions of where their hours are going to go.

As for CDQs and ECDQs and general staff involvement... I have to say it, Layonara is ridiculously spoiled.  Sure, you should strive for excellence always, but wow, look at that calender and how full they're able to keep it.  It is wild how much motivation is maintained by the staff here.  It is so so so so hard to get staff involvement like that on a continuous basis.  And it's fairly obvious that given the huge number of players online, you have a fairly difficult demand to meet when it comes to tailored individual quests.  And that's probably why they're hiring more, as Dorganoth linked.  But seriously, talk about a juggling act trying to cover this playerbase with human beings that have their own schedules outside of DM'ing.

So while you bring up a good point on the limitations to meet demand, I don't think compromising the integrity of the tried and true system of ECDQs is warranted.  It's there for a lot more reasons then just to signal your arrival.  It's an application process and an introduction process.  That is, the staff should really get to know you once you've influenced the server enough to be an epic.  Because in the ideal self sustaining system of a server, an epic has enough world plot information now to either facilitate plot as a player or progress to being a DM - in both cases it help if you're brought into the family of information and exchange.  Bottlenecked or not, it's a great way to do things.

[Pankoki]

Yeah... I got the vague feeling that I've already poked this before with the Pan logic. Don't rightfully remember where it was or what it was for.
  In any case. It all boils down to one thing. As a team, and as observers of the world, if you may, we would rather have unique epic players that are there for a reason and have proven to be beyond the norm of even the mightiest of adventurers, than simply opening the gates to anyone that can reach level 20.
  Meaning no offense on those people who have or don't have time to quest, but making it to level 20 does not prove you are an epic character. And many of our players who have reached level 20, while having ocassional spurts of glory, have truly not left that significant mark yet. So in the end having "40 level 20 players" is more consistent with what our world is about, then having a free access to epicness.
  For all matters and purposes you should consider that the level cap in layo is 20 and to those real special and unique, a boon is granted. And please don't take this comment as if it were an elitist perspective. Because it isn't. You can influence the world whether you're level 20, 10 or 35. This system however was designed (and allowed, remember that before we did not have epic levels period) to reward those who have left a mark on Layonara that they deserved a bit more.

[jrizz]

Pankoki - 4/27/2006  12:35 PM    In any case. It all boils down to one thing. As a team, and as observers of the world, if you may, we would rather have unique epic players that are there for a reason and have proven to be beyond the norm of even the mightiest of adventurers, than simply opening the gates to anyone that can reach level 20.
  Meaning no offense on those people who have or don't have time to quest, but making it to level 20 does not prove you are an epic character. And many of our players who have reached level 20, while having ocassional spurts of glory, have truly not left that significant mark yet. So in the end having "40 level 20 players" is more consistent with what our world is about, then having a free access to epicness.

 Well said, you just have to look at Ozy, Rhiz, and Plen to see examples of epic chars. Sure we have a bunch of 20th level chars and some of them were at one time well known and accesable but it seems that quite a few have cliched out in order to get to that 20th level goal (some quite fast too). It is the chars that make that climb and still have time to talk with the new chars and help mid levels on quests and spend time helping us all get deep into the story, that is the sign of an epic. Not just being on all the "right" quests. I am amazed at how Ozy's player can be a part of the plot quests and still have time to hang around Hlint and chat with all of us and meet and RP with new players, that is a shining example of epic (even if he is a wind bag *laughs*).

[Harloff]

*shrugs* to me level 21 is the level coming after level 20, have never really understood the big fuzz about that...

[Rayenoir]

It may not strike you as being a big fuss, but D&D stops at level 20.  Unless you have the Epic Level Handbook.  So there's quite a bit of fuss, really.

[miltonyorkcastle]

yeah, by DnD standards, when you go beyond 20, you are trying to reach for something on a divine level.  Creatures in power above level 20 are legends.  And above all, feared and revered.

[Deacon]

Furthermore, I have never done any PnP playing (though I want to sometime) but I think that in PnP levels are MUCH harder to attain.  For example, a level 9 rogue in the PnP world is pretty strong and should be looked at with respect.  In the online world a level 9 rogue is largely considered weaker than most other classes.  (correct me if I'm wrong PnP experienced players)

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Depends on the setting, but yes a lvl 9 rogue has a lot of possibilities in a PnP setting that he lacks in a computer game due to limitations.

[jrizz]

I think there should be other Epic limits like one Epic paladin per diety's that have paladins, and the same for clerics. In my old PnP world there will only so many of each level of Druid after a certain level, and there was only one thiefs guild master (rogue now, not that that matters how many pure rogues do we have) you had to "replace" him/her if you wanted to be the "numero uno".

[Harloff]

So epics are a big deal because you need another rulebook in pnp and in NWN context you need hotu...

[Leanthar]

*smiles* No Harloff they are not a big deal for that reason. They are a big deal because I do not want a bejesus amount of character above level 20 walking around the world like a god (in a manner of speaking) just because they are above level 20. Layonara is based on a history of D&D and I treat things above level 20 in a different manner, always have and probably always will when using the D&D rules. Now..I don't really care how many level 21+ we have walking around the world so long as they prove they are not just hacking and slashing to those levels, IE they get through an ECDQ approval and then on top of that succeed in their ECDQ.

[Dorganath]

In the old days (1st and maybe 2nd edition), there was only 1 druid for each level over a certain point...which I believe was 15th level. Druids under these rules capped at 23rd level as the Hierophant of the Cabal. This rule was introduced in the Unearthed Arcana book (yes, I still have a copy) and was among a set of rules to further define class progression above the point where the Player's Handbook left off. There were no Epic rules in 1st edition as such, and the defined class progression effectively ended (or became rather mundane) at different points depending on the class. Each class also leveled at a different rate.  
  3rd Edition is such a different beast, however...the old rules really don't apply well. Reaching Epic levels (21+) is not just another level in 3rd edition rules.

[Ne'er]

Epic
1. Surpassing the usual or ordinary, particularly in scope or size
2. Heroic and impressive in quality

That's the definition from dictionary.com. The very fact they are above the ordinary shows that they are, indeed, as big deal. I mean, look at the epics in history. There have been hundreds of heros and generals throughtout the history of the world worthy of note, but only a handful of which people would actually consider "epic." So why should it be any different with Layonara? After all, if everyone finds their way to epic with little or no difficulty, it is no longer above the ordinary.

I guess another way to look at this would also be in terms of sports. Take baseball for instance. There are the people everyone wonders how exactly they managed to play professional baseball. Then you have the mediocre players and the really good players. However, then you have your players like Babe Ruth, or Ted Williams. Players like them would be the "epics" of baseball. They'll probably never be forgotten, and that is a big part of being an epic.

In Layo, an epic character is the type that would be remembered ages after they die. They would live on in tales and legends, and people would aspire to be like them (or, in some cases fear them). That's just not something that can, or should happen to everyone however sad it may be.

That's my 2 cents on all of this.

[Sakura]

I've been playing off and on for like a year and none of my characters are over 16. Due to my time and when I like to play I can never find a quest to go on, and due to the nature of my characters it is hard to find a group (Can't stand monster bashing all day, I like crafting ).


Epic is the key word in ECDQ, the question has to be asked. What have You done to make you so special and valuble to the world of Layonara?

If the answer is "Nothing of importaince" then you really need to consider, what a plan of action to flesh out that character. Simply because it is importaint that that character has done something note worthy to gain epic states.


I burned out running CDQ's, I didn't mind the ones that were "I'd like to develop my character in Xxxx manor in order to do this or that or even a PrC (and I give you infomation on my character)".

However I can't stand the "I want a cdq run it for me with no real meat or substance I just want to waste your time".

CDQ's should be fun and unique, but I feel that you should give the GM/DM running that side quest just for you enough information so they can create something fun for you, with out burning out.

I'd also like to see the XP lose implemented again, but I don't like the DT thing (But thats just me). I'd rather lose the XP then lose my life, makes things intresting and harder to level up.

****Disclamer**** These are my opinions, not that of the GM team.

//End Rant!

Some day Willow will be epic and I'll have a intresting quest for Pan to run.

Sakura-chan

[Gulnyr]

Harloff - 4/27/2006  5:29 PM

So epics are a big deal because you need another rulebook in pnp and in NWN context you need hotu...

Don't think in OOC stat terms, think in IC terms as if Layonara were the real world.

Level 20 would be the limit of what very dedicated, "ordinary" mortals could expect to achieve.  This is the level of ability that could be eventually expected from anyone with a long enough lifespan to match their level of hard work.  Most people, even the Elves, don't have the drive it takes to become that skilled.  That's why there are so many commoners.

Even among adventurers, there are few who can push the limits of their mortality, and fewer still who have the will and the ability to go beyond what was thought possible and truly become epic personalities.  These are the people who would be Layonara's version of the Greek heroes.  Out of all the Greeks, there are only a handful of heroes...

Unfortunately, the inevitability of reaching level 20 by eventually piling up enough XP makes it seem that this is practically automatic, and that moving on to level 21 is just a pile of XP away.  But becoming epic really ought to mean something.  Hitting level 20 ought to mean something, too, but anyone can do it.  It's just a matter of time.

[Dorax Windsmith]

What was the XP penalty that keeps getting mentioned?  Dorax died 3 times last week on the Eon quest and lost 64k, that was a pretty hard penalty.  Am I missing something?

As far as Epic goes, I totally agree that epic is something that should be very special.  The system seems to have worked really well up to this point and I think it will continue to work well in the future.

On the quick leveling discussion, it seems that those people with more time to play can certainly get more exp if that is what they like doing, either by bashing or questing.  I really enjoy playing Layo and if my wife would allow it I would probably play like 100 hours a week or more, but that is not the case.  When I do play, I enjoy finding new challenges.  Crafting is something that you can really get involved in and it can be very rewarding too in terms of money and role playing.  I really think that this server is about having fun and it bothers me when people complain because someone is doing this or that, as long as the server rules are being followed we should be happy for others that are having fun too, less comparison about how fast someone made level would be my vote.  There are some great rules in place here and as long as people are following those rules then we should be having fun.  Let's simply enjoy the game and what each of us brings to it.  As stated earlier, Epic status will be granted to those that have attained that level of impact, and that decision is being made thru an established process.  I trust the team and the way things are handled.

Hope to see more of you in game!

[orth]

Players used to lose 10% of their total XP if they respawned.  They could go back to their grave to get half of that back.

4% of their XP if they were raised, 2% if they were resurrected.

[xXDenizeNXx]

Dorganath - 4/28/2006  2:53 AM    

xXDenizeNXx - 4/27/2006  10:44 AM  Simple solutiom could also be to get more gm's, simply a matter of supply and demand.

 heh....
  http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25233&posts=1&start=1  

 Doh! I only open my virtual mouth to stick the other foot in sometimes eh Dorganath, ah well time to put me money where me big mouth is and give it a go at applying then... wish me luck heh