The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Makashi on December 27, 2007, 03:36:30 am
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Last night I was running an small sessionto liven things up just outside Hempstead, it was good RP between those involved. However I did notice something that no one else seemed to at one point.
An orc turned up killing some kobolds, possibly saving the group, the group showed no fear or anxiety to the orc, he was accepted like most would be.
This is the first part I find odd, Orcs aren't socially acceptable generally, and I found it amusing aswell as annoying, how can some one ignore a huge green man infront of them wielding a spear.
Later on, in the fields, another orc, which confused me as to where it actually came from at first, but again, the orc ran admidst the group, not a flinch from anyone.
Just want to point out to people this sort of RP isn't the way it should be, people should be acting upon what is happening, not ignoring other PCs due to the fact they have fought some kobolds that aren't normally there.
I have noticed the same for my PC G'ork recently, most just don't react like he is a problem, some even (somehow) manage to pluck up enough courage to take a close look at his axe. Infact, most strangers do sadly.
I don't know about you, but if I was an elf and saw an orc on the roads, I'd probablyavoid them, or atleast keep my eye on them from a distance, but would be weary. It's an orc/half-orc/half-giant/goblin - it really doesn't matter, monsterous races should be RP'd as odd creatures. Not cuddly toys.
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I think I wrote a story about this Makashi here (http://forums.layonara.com/roleplaying/115949-creature-interactions.html).
I totally agree with you about this.
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There are several things that contribute to this behaviour.
1) Player Acceptable Races
Any race that you can be as a player, by default, is "in the club"; you're a player, I'm a player, let's go off and have fun together. This is, after all, why we play the game, isn't it, to have fun; by the way, dying is "not fun", so we will avoid taking any actions which would result in us having "not fun" together. This is also called "getting along".
2) Traditionally-Antagonistic-Races As Characters
Characters that are traditionally-antagonistic-races are usually loners; they are separated from their racial group. If they weren't, they'd be with their racial group now, and not be having adventures up here with everyone else.
When you are a loner, typically you want to make friends with everyone (all the loners who failed to learn this concept are dead).
Therefore, traditionally-antagonistic-race characters are usually played in a non-hostile manner. The characters that meet the TARC learn this. When they meet other characters, the TARC friend gives the TARC the "is okay" stamp. Any hostile responses to the TARC usually move to neutral while the behaviour of the TARC is evaluated. If the TARC shows the new people that they are "is okay", the TARC gets new friends. This cycle is repeated when they meet new people.
Further, once you have learnt that a loner of a particular TAR is possibly non-hostile, you are more likely to give loners of other TARs a chance.
And so traditionally antagonistic behaviours are steadily eroded away.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Script Wrecked
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[INDENT]heh, c'mon I stabbed an orc that day in that field. he wasn't about to go neck to neck though, thats why the Jaigan travels in packs :p he likes his head where it is... on his shoulders ;) [/INDENT]
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@ScriptWrecked
While I respect what you have written in terms of everyone being friendly towards each other, Layonara has behind it a deep intrinsic history and Lore. This has come about with hundreds of hours from writers who have fleshed it out.
I can show links to:
Orcs (http://lore.layonara.com/Orc)
Drow (http://lore.layonara.com/Dark%20Elf)
Elves (http://lore.layonara.com/Elf)
Dwarves (http://lore.layonara.com/Dwarf)
Halflings (http://lore.layonara.com/Halfling)
as being just a few races that have been fleshed out and placed into Layonara. Remember there is a lot more writeups in the handbook. I have to say that EdtheKet and his writer team have spent a lot of time (and that is literally a lot of time, like 10+ months) to write the third iteration of the handbook.
The handbook fleshes out how the diferent races relate to each other. It shows us how dieties respond to each other. It informs us what has gone on in the world. Yes, it is up to us to take that peice of knowledge and use that to enjoy ourselves.
But please keep this in mind when RP. Anyone can say "Lets be friends" and make an excuse for it. But please, please consider how that impacts on the those that wrote the Handbook and such. These guys have worked hard to write it. Personally I feel that when characters instantly make friends for the reasons you have stated, it is kind of forgetting about all the hard work of the Writer's team.
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I must agree with Makashi both orcs were mine and to Eru they did simply nothing; as for Herekete they reacted slightly maybe because he is a mage of some sort. Besides being played by players monster races arent to be taken easily so they should be treated in a ~much~ diferent way then the NPCs. I never asked with any of my monster races (and yes I played orcs and a goblin) to tag along and be friend of anyone, well maybe with Eru but he is NG.
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Alignments don't have much to do with it i think .
There are races who dislike or simply hate other races , that should be rp'ed out .
Those choosing to play a race that is "disliked " by others can know that by reading up on the race .
Same goes for Followers of God's .
Due to things we as mortal chars don't understand , there are God's that are hostile to each-other and that should be rp'ed out .
If that inter-fears with your friendly feelings towards the player behind the char , then don't play a char that is hostile or unfriendly to that players char .
If the char you play inter-fears with you leveling easy because you cant find a party , too bad ...it was your on choice to play that character and no one forced you to it .
The more i run around , the more i see chars partying up together that according to their race or faith should flat-out hate each-other .
It's in my eyes a complete ignoring off the work the writers have done and still are working on .
Of-course we are all here to play and have fun , but to me the choice you make for characters should be visible in you rping that character , i don't know about others , but more and more i get the feeling that characters are made for their extra abilities and are played as-if they are a complete other race/ follower of a God then they were created.
Of-course these are only my thoughts on this and i don't want any-one to think i'm talking about their characters or rp .
I'm surely not the best rp'er myself and am sure i do lots off things wrong myself .
Bottom-line i guess is :
Read up on your race and Deity ..and play accordingly to it !!
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since i was there with spider
eru the orc with the spear is seen alot, out and about with his ox, gathering fighting, him being seen tagging behind wasnt need for much alarm, as there were those present who had seen him before and were aware of him not being a bad orc
now herekete on the other hand came through the group invis'd and we saw shimmers, and formed defensive circles as best we could
his ice mephit was followed and led us to the shiny orc on the hill
now when you get within firing range of a shaman, they fire and use their spells
once spider saw what it was, he wasnt alarmed anymore, a single orc with a pet, not something that would alarm a drow
when the mephit came in and attacked he was chased and sent back to his plane
now im not sure about the others, but we did have a few newcomers with us and were showing the ropes type things, when we got some gm spice, and it was great
the two new guys with us, have seen the world is alive, and are now stocking their chairs full of red bull and snacks cause they wont leave
perhaps we could have done some more with the second orc, but i cant speak for the others in the group, only as spider, and the orc didnt scare him in the least, once he was revealed
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Not attacking any creature that has maybe just saved someone in a party doesnt seem so bad
also
there is so much 'unusualness' it is not that unusual to the extent a pc is likely to meet or be in party with a drow/goblin/giant etc on most/a lot of occassions they have an outing so...it cant always be rpd to best effect on every outing...it might prevent/slow/stop any other gaming...to the detrement of some other plot the gm is trying to get going.
I think we should all remember it and try to rp as best we can without destroying others rp or fun too. (by dominating other plots/storylines) I think its a balance thing, not sure we can always get it right every time.
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It's in my eyes a complete ignoring off the work the writers have done and still are working on .
I understood that one of the stated aims of the original Blood campaign (as presented by the writers) was that the characters would unite against the common enemy despite their differing alignments and/or races.
If the char you play inter-fears with you leveling easy because you cant find a party , too bad ...it was your on choice to play that character and no one forced you to it .
On an RP server, where the whole purpose is group interaction, if you can't find a party to RP with, should you be playing that character? Viz, should you be detailing whom you will be RPing with in your submission, and/or be given direction in that regard?
I think we should all remember it and try to rp as best we can without destroying others rp or fun too. (by dominating other plots/storylines) I think its a balance thing, not sure we can always get it right every time.
I would suggest it becomes a question of "RP fun" versus "strict RP".
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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since i was there with spider
once spider saw what it was, he wasnt alarmed anymore, a single orc with a pet, not something that would alarm a drow
Just to highlight this point made - if my cleric was stood out there, and had seen a strange orc running about with summons, she'd probably be concerned to say the least.
I don't understand why a drow would be exempt from being a bit, well disconcerted atleast.
A drow isn't much different, drows still have to worry about getting hurt, more so than most infact.
In response to Mixafix, I didn't expect you to have killed Eru :), but it was like, he was already known as the friendliest orc around or something. No one seemed to care that orcs have a tendancy to kill a lot/most things that aren't in their tribes. Even if you see an orc killing kobolds, how would you be so sure, he isn't going to do the same to you?
I'm not trying to get at anyone, I'd just like to see a little more realism. I accept there are times when unrealistic situations present themselves, but if possible should be prevented.
Going on to the point about odd combinations in parties, they do come about from time to time, but generally, people do use their common sense, which I'm pleased about, I infact recall a few months back, G'ork trying to travel with some people, and some one then stating that G'ork had been involved in a robbery, and so, had to make a run before the guards came along, and I didn't get to go adventurring! But! I was pleased when I got this response. The party had general concerns about G'ork travelling with them.
Thanks for all the feedback on the subject though, I'm glad to see everyone putting their opinions across.
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Saira gets so much hate :P, well probably due to her shifty nature, of being CN, not some goody little Darkie, but i find it fun that some people start chasing her for no apparent reason, and that people have set prices on her head @_@.
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I understood that one of the stated aims of the original Blood campaign (as presented by the writers) was that the characters would unite against the common enemy despite their differing alignments and/or races.
You're right. But that was the Soul of a Lost Ancient campaign, where all the PCs had both a common enemy (Blood) and a common background/voucher (Ozlo summoning them).
We no longer have that. We haven't for many years, in game.
There is no reason for most people/characters to think that A_Random_Orc is anything but an evil brute driven by bloodlust. Ditto Goblins, giants, etc. The halfblood forms of these don't lessen this by too terribly much. Dark elves, likewise, are the poster children of evil; they are literally the boogieman that parents scare kids with.
On an RP server, where the whole purpose is group interaction, if you can't find a party to RP with, should you be playing that character? Viz, should you be detailing whom you will be RPing with in your submission, and/or be given direction in that regard?
There are other things to do than RP; however, one should never step out of character just because noone else is around. In terms of "who you 'should' be RPing with," characters are assumed to be more or less normal for their race/culture unless stated otherwise. A_Human_Fighter will typically hate/fear Dark Elves and Orcs, for example, and would likely attack more or less on sight.
I would suggest it becomes a question of "RP fun" versus "strict RP".
I would disagree. "RP fun" with a dwarf randomly greeting and running around with an orc is not "RP fun" at all. Fun it may be, but the RP bit is arguable.
Your cycle with the "agressive races" does not illustrate a workaround, but rather, it illustrates the problem.
We should all keep in mind that orcs, goblins, giants, and especially dark elves, are all evil. This statement is much like "humans have some number of appendages." There may be an EXTREME few who do not, but they are considered freaks and aberrations (not to be confused with abominations), and would be unheard of among other races.
EDIT: Now, before anyone points to the number of not-totally-evil monstrous PCs we have in game, let me illustrate something, and point to the number of high-level characters we have in game. They ARE that tiny segment; almost all of it. It's like gathering all the pastafarian albino amputees in the world to say "hey! Pastafarian albino amputees are fairly common!"
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Considering that the "heroes" of Layonara make a living by running around slaughtering massive amounts of tribal beings minding their own business for fun, profit and training, I think we just need to sit back a moment and admit to ourselves that even the most self-righteous paladin here is a bastion of Mordor. I mean, seriously, only one character I've ever met, the Aeridenite known as Eghass Treebringer passes for a good alignment in my eyes. The rest are all slaughtering fey creatures, neutral naturalistic Kenku, little woodland fairies in Dregar, and beings that don't attack unless you stray far from the road and charge their tribal lands, etc. all for a handful of pecans and a bag of salt or less sometimes! How many times have you been just sitting there idly in Hempsteed and had some complete stranger walk up to you and solicit your help in killing something? Now isn't THAT an interesting conversation starter... "excuse me guy sitting there, wouldst thou help me commit genocide because it pays better than being a hotel clerk or bank manager? Oh, but I can't survive on those wages, I need to buy a better sword and magical items to KILL people better!"
I mean come on, when killing becomes so reflexive that you ask people who you've only known for 5-10 minutes to come hack things apart as they writhe in agonizing pain, pleading for their lives for their coin and the sheer pleasure of killing and training to be a better killer... you have to cede the moralist perspective and realize we're not much better than orcs. At least they have enough honor to put you to good use and the pragmatic ethos to eat you once you're dead... we just stomp their babies and decapitate their women for sheer greed and pleasure... and at best, religious zealotism which makes the most jihadist our earthly sects look like Ghandi. Vorax is LG and worships... WAR! How the heck does a good guy who obeys all laws preach decapitating other races on sight, no matter how "evil" they are without being at the very least, a neutral mercenary?
Also take into consideration that adventurers aren't like normal people... they are exceptions to every rule there it. Furthermore, if a band of angry kobolds was trying to kill me, an orc popped out of nowhere and saved my life, I wouldn't exactly be screaming at him that he's evil and charging at him with a sword. Even if I totally hated orcs, the sheer and utter fear of such a huge hulking brute would keep my mouth in line, a pleasant smile on my face, a sir-yes-sir with every word. So I wouldn't chalk it up to bad rp, but rather RPing somebody with more than 3 int.
Furthermore, who says anybody trusts humans, elves and dwarves these days? Look at the bandits outside town, the dwarf clans on the hill just outside bloody gate, the elven druids who eat innocent Hlintian tanners! Heck, Bloodstone, the most evil man in all of history, was human... So if anything I would trust evil races even more than any of the rest... at least they're up front with how they feel. Meanwhile we have all the best of the best and the most goody goody of heroes, high priests and paladins doing errands for Milara, breaking into Rofirienite crypts desecrating the holiest of the dead and stealing divine essence to help a LE drow become a god... some moral high ground there!
Anybody who is more than level 4 should be shifted to CE by sheer server mechanics, save for Eghass and maybe Athus. The rest are all bloody butchers who'll slay an entire family of innocents for 1xp a pop. (the few that hunt ONLY undead are the one big exception)
On that note, we need more pacifistic and social quests so that goodly characters can wipe some of that blood from their hands, xp drops for RP for its own right, and ways to gain decent xp when no GMs are around that doesn't involve killing. You can self-justify that killing evil things is a good act till you're blue in the face, but Jesus, Ghandi, Aeriden and Azatta all beg to differ.
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Also take into consideration that adventurers aren't like normal people... they are exceptions to every rule there it.
True enough. Still, if a character is friendly or even unmoved by any of the typically Evil races, there needs to be an exceptional reason. That's especially true of the traditional racial enemies, like Dwarves and Orcs or Elves and Dark Elves.
I agree with the rest of that paragraph, except that I'd say there is a difference between not reacting to an obviously powerful Orc and keeping your mouth shut around an obviously powerful Orc until he has gone when you can comment on how horrible they are or curse about owing your life to one. If some in a group know the Orc, then that might affect how others in the group who don't know him respond, but instant acceptance seems very extreme.
This is a lot like the deity relations, only not quite as strict. You don't have to go totally nuts just because a follower of your deity's enemy is in the group, and you don't have to go totally nuts just because a hated race is in the group. Going overboard with any of it wears out fast. But you shouldn't act like that Orc is just a funny-looking Human any more than you should act like that Toranite is just a Lucindite with a funny-looking lightning bolt on his shield.
While your points about PCs being rather Evil in their actions have merit, they aren't entirely fair. If it were possible to, say, buy iron from a regular ol' Human mining company, maybe it would be more fair to point fingers at the people who decide to go raid some Gnoll's cave instead. And since the nature of the game leaves killing and crafting (which often requires killing off guardians for CNR) as the only real methods of advancement at low levels, it seems a little slack is in order. More XP for non-combat RP would be nice, but it also seems like it would take a lot more manpower that is likely better devoted to maintaining what we've got and working on the next Layonara so there aren't problems like this.
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I would argue also that those who submit for monstrous races (orcs, goblins, dark elves) know what they're getting into.
If you want to play a character who's buddy-buddy with most everyone on the server, you choose a NG farmboy. Open mind, open heart, ready to greet the world with a smile and an open hand, ready to pit his young, idealistic self against the evils of the world (viz, those same orcs, goblins, dark elves).
The monstrous races have alignment restrictions as PCs for a reason - the monstrous races are evil. In many cases (especially Dark Elves), to break from the mold is to invite death from your kin. As such, a selection pressure on those races leads to, if not a genetic alteration to temperament, then a sort of social darwinism - if you come from orcish/goblin/dark elven society, you're not a nice person, nor should you be expected to be. And a person from those societies wouldn't expect (nor should they) to be accepted by human/elven/dwarven society. They'd stay in disguise, all the time, and maybe, MAYBE when they really trusted the people they'd met, they might show their true face.
Exceptions to this are fairly obvious - there are the truly stupid (orcs can sometimes fall into this category), who don't see the danger in being themselves. There are the clever, who rely on their race's reputation to protect them. (Dark elves could try this. No guarantees on that working, though.) And then there are the PCs of monstrous races who have gained either a) power, or b) universal respect. A Dark Elf who is renowned for her good works, say, and is whose name is known across the lands... they could walk about freely. A Dark Elf who is known to incinerate anyone who looks at him funny, and who is capable of holding off a small army, can likewise walk about with a certain amount of impunity, should he so desire.
Other than that... it IS an RP server. While we do not dictate what good RP is... it must be fairly evident that being instantly trusting of a member of an untrustworthy race is neither wise nor intelligent, and would not be an RP-accurate portrayal of someone possessed of a modicum of either stat. Likewise, a Dark Elf/orc/goblin walking uncovered who finds a sword to his or her chest ought not to be surprised - and neither should her player.
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Generally I try to play a very Malcom X-ish isolationist viewpoint for these very reasons. Kor for example generally avoids highly populated areas and acts like an abused, snarling dog when people interact with him, preferring to stomp around in the wilderness doing his own thing and only accepting the company of other savages or the truly decadent like outcast necromancers or the like. If a dwarf ever comes across his path it's usualy KOR who hates him with a passion, not the other way around. He isn't truly evil, so he tries to take it to the arena, and doesnt really hate anybody other than dwarves for their fear. (I've been told he acts like a Klingon on bad hallucinagens) Most of the time he laughs and basks in the fear, taking their threats on his life as a compliment, and looks forward to any paladin murdering him so that he gets the last laugh when they fall from grace, pointing out he's unarmed and not doing anything to them, while mocking their god. Martyrdom has a pretty hefty place in Grand's teachings, just as much as the bloodlust. He's practically suicidal in that aspect, for in death he can taint others, making them give into the vengeance of Grand.
Grovel is equally as seperatist, sometimes more, sometimes less. Being smarter than Kor, he tends to cover himself up as much as he can and avoid people if at all possible, preferring to just be with the other goblins and a handful of folks. The only people who have seen his face are a handful of people whom he deems to either care more about the natural side of things (Pallenia for example) or those who his brother War Singer befriends who seem to bear them no ill will and seem to be open to not judging races. (Vendar & a few others) The rest he tries to avoid, often just running past them quickly before they can even type a greeting, or if in the worst case scenario... he keeps covered up and pretends to be a halfling. Still, when he does manage to be stopped for conversation he does have decent skill in diplomacy, choosing his words carefully and trying not to ACT evil. He also loudly declares his hatred for other, more evil things to distract others from worrying about him... namely undead and werewolves, for surely anybody who would hunt a werewolf and undead hunter MUST be evil and in league with them! heheh. We try to keep as hidden as possible in that regard when playing them, as to keep in line with not walking around with our race on our sleeves.
I won't turn away somebody who wants to join us though, since that can be seen as rude in an OOC sense and it's tough for some people to find groups. The RP will be there to express how freakish he is (rolling around in corpses, eating eyeballs, ranting about how he wants to kill and torture things that cross him) but I'm not going to bash somebody's RP for wanting to play a *game* and have *fun* with the only other person online in their level bracket. The trick is to have fun with it, and to emphasis the goblin and "orky" (heheh, dawn of war reference) qualities of your race, or the mannerisms that set them apart, I think. Not everybody fits the same mold as their racial skin... we can't judge RP for failure to adhere to stereotypes.
Now as far as the notion that RP is grim on openly accepting the monstrous, with both of them I have never found that to be the case. Kor has never grouped with anybody who wasn't wholley decadent and outcast, has dragged so many people to the arena its hilarious (was the last person who beat Hardragh too!), is generally reviled several times over and has a huge whopping persecution complex that rivals even schizophrenic evangelicals. It's all how you play the monstrous character, and how they interact with others that truly makes them monstrous. You don't see half-giants fall under the stygma very often (except Bakee, who's practically Pyrtechon's right hand of destruction) since for the most part, they tend to be big, dumb, an favor their human sides, almost in a cartoonish and loveable sense. Prior to our goblin hoarde, most of the goblins (not all though) were equally as loveable in a sense... it would take a hardened heart indeed to kill Bilkivvi, with his silly, amiable manners and strange garb. It's all in how you play a character that makes it monstrous, not just the race. Take other decadent humans for example, Chanda, Nethro, Az-Ptol and of course... that bloody madman Czukay. Now those are some truly freakish, monstrous, people that you instinctively guard your children from. I still remember when Czukay came to Hlint, how each time a whole gaggle of people would get worked up and freak out over him, Acacea and Piper screaming at the new players not to follow him into the wilds to help them with quests. Now those were some pretty monstrous encounters!
So who's the real monster? I think persona and demeanor have a much greater emphasis than race, at least as far as player characters is concerned. PnP players are far more likely to have played the goodly adventurers trying to talk sense into a mob, than weilding the torch or pitchfork themselves. Sure race will always be a factor, but not so much with heroes such as ours who, like I said, murder for a living and beyond that, have experienced enough decadent humans and amiable monsters in their journeys. It's the uneducated who tend to be racist, and the experienced and wise who judge people based on their actions. Don't blame the players for not hating monsters on sight... half of them are just living up to their good alignment and the other half are such monsters themselves it doesn't matter so much. Besides, its usually on GM quests that we wind up meeting goodly nature giants who parlay, Milaras with dracoliches on a leash who have a quest for a group of paladins, blackened demons in Hlint who just want to talk and be friends, Corashes who redeem themselves by turning away from Grand and Psychotic human tyrants who once were goodly dragonslayers and are now hellbent on destroying the world and torturing everybody in it. Don't break the mold and expect the populace to fit within it.
So as for the above example not being the way RP should be, I would cut them some slack and remind us all... seriously, have you ever found a single solitary server where the RP was any better? I honestly wish my PnP players RPed as well as the new people I meet here every single day. Let's not pidgeonhole people for not being rabid mobs of fundamentalists... is it not the team who reminds us constantly not to attack everything that's glowing red? How is killing on sight for race any different?
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Considering that the "heroes" of Layonara make a living by running around slaughtering massive amounts of tribal beings minding their own business for fun, profit and training, I think we just need to sit back a moment and admit to ourselves that even the most self-righteous paladin here is a bastion of Mordor. I mean, seriously, only one character I've ever met, the Aeridenite known as Eghass Treebringer passes for a good alignment in my eyes. The rest are all slaughtering fey creatures, neutral naturalistic Kenku, little woodland fairies in Dregar, and beings that don't attack unless you stray far from the road and charge their tribal lands, etc. all for a handful of pecans and a bag of salt or less sometimes! How many times have you been just sitting there idly in Hempsteed and had some complete stranger walk up to you and solicit your help in killing something? Now isn't THAT an interesting conversation starter... "excuse me guy sitting there, wouldst thou help me commit genocide because it pays better than being a hotel clerk or bank manager? Oh, but I can't survive on those wages, I need to buy a better sword and magical items to KILL people better!"
I mean come on, when killing becomes so reflexive that you ask people who you've only known for 5-10 minutes to come hack things apart as they writhe in agonizing pain, pleading for their lives for their coin and the sheer pleasure of killing and training to be a better killer... you have to cede the moralist perspective and realize we're not much better than orcs. At least they have enough honor to put you to good use and the pragmatic ethos to eat you once you're dead... we just stomp their babies and decapitate their women for sheer greed and pleasure... and at best, religious zealotism which makes the most jihadist our earthly sects look like Ghandi. Vorax is LG and worships... WAR! How the heck does a good guy who obeys all laws preach decapitating other races on sight, no matter how "evil" they are without being at the very least, a neutral mercenary?
Also take into consideration that adventurers aren't like normal people... they are exceptions to every rule there it. Furthermore, if a band of angry kobolds was trying to kill me, an orc popped out of nowhere and saved my life, I wouldn't exactly be screaming at him that he's evil and charging at him with a sword. Even if I totally hated orcs, the sheer and utter fear of such a huge hulking brute would keep my mouth in line, a pleasant smile on my face, a sir-yes-sir with every word. So I wouldn't chalk it up to bad rp, but rather RPing somebody with more than 3 int.
Furthermore, who says anybody trusts humans, elves and dwarves these days? Look at the bandits outside town, the dwarf clans on the hill just outside bloody gate, the elven druids who eat innocent Hlintian tanners! Heck, Bloodstone, the most evil man in all of history, was human... So if anything I would trust evil races even more than any of the rest... at least they're up front with how they feel. Meanwhile we have all the best of the best and the most goody goody of heroes, high priests and paladins doing errands for Milara, breaking into Rofirienite crypts desecrating the holiest of the dead and stealing divine essence to help a LE drow become a god... some moral high ground there!
Anybody who is more than level 4 should be shifted to CE by sheer server mechanics, save for Eghass and maybe Athus. The rest are all bloody butchers who'll slay an entire family of innocents for 1xp a pop. (the few that hunt ONLY undead are the one big exception)
On that note, we need more pacifistic and social quests so that goodly characters can wipe some of that blood from their hands, xp drops for RP for its own right, and ways to gain decent xp when no GMs are around that doesn't involve killing. You can self-justify that killing evil things is a good act till you're blue in the face, but Jesus, Ghandi, Aeriden and Azatta all beg to differ.
Someone has been RPing with Daralith too much. LOL. He loves to point out those facts IN game to people all the time. Too funny, but true on so many levels.
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You remember Corash! Yay!
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Sure race will always be a factor, but not so much with heroes such as ours who, like I said, murder for a living and beyond that, have experienced enough decadent humans and amiable monsters in their journeys. It's the uneducated who tend to be racist, and the experienced and wise who judge people based on their actions. Don't blame the players for not hating monsters on sight... half of them are just living up to their good alignment and the other half are such monsters themselves it doesn't matter so much.
Well said. It's important not to let "I'm an adventurer" become an excuse for ignoring race, though. "Bad" races don't have their reputations for nothing, after all. How many "good" Dark Elves does a character have to meet before he gives every random Dark Elf a chance? How many "bad" Dark Elves have come before, back through the generations, that make giving one a chance seem like a really bad idea? Yeah, the Good alignment can stave off a killing blow, but there's a lot of room between charging like an insane Voraxian and passing out flowers like a hippie Aeridinite; you don't have to be friendly to be Good, you just have to respect life.
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Kudos to all for filling in the holes; not terribly much left to be said. Gulnyr and Darkstorme touch on my main points: the history of the races and the way different alignments might act.
Good points all around, though. *Shuffles off to take more DayQuil.*
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Apologies for backtracking a bit. However, for clarification:
It's in my eyes a complete ignoring off the work the writers have done and still are working on .
I understood that one of the stated aims of the original Blood campaign (as presented by the writers) was that the characters would unite against the common enemy despite their differing alignments and/or races.
You're right. But that was the Soul of a Lost Ancient campaign, where all the PCs had both a common enemy (Blood) and a common background/voucher (Ozlo summoning them).
We no longer have that. We haven't for many years, in game.
But the ongoing legacy of this campaign is the framework that the Dragon Called characters operated from, and the example that they continue to set, particularly in regard to dealings with traditionally-antagonistic-race characters; it isn't a clean slate.
There is no reason for most people/characters to think that A_Random_Orc is anything but an evil brute driven by bloodlust. Ditto Goblins, giants, etc. The halfblood forms of these don't lessen this by too terribly much. Dark elves, likewise, are the poster children of evil; they are literally the boogieman that parents scare kids with.
Until they have meet said random orc/goblin/giant/dark elf, RP has been exchanged, and they find them to be "is okay". Once that has occurred, there is the steady erosion of traditionally antagonistic behaviours. That last sentence is the point I am trying to make.
On an RP server, where the whole purpose is group interaction, if you can't find a party to RP with, should you be playing that character? Viz, should you be detailing whom you will be RPing with in your submission, and/or be given direction in that regard?
There are other things to do than RP; however, one should never step out of character just because noone else is around. In terms of "who you 'should' be RPing with," characters are assumed to be more or less normal for their race/culture unless stated otherwise. A_Human_Fighter will typically hate/fear Dark Elves and Orcs, for example, and would likely attack more or less on sight.
I am coming from the traditionally antagonistic race character point of view, and whom they would RP with.
I think we should all remember it and try to rp as best we can without destroying others rp or fun too. (by dominating other plots/storylines) I think its a balance thing, not sure we can always get it right every time.
I would suggest it becomes a question of "RP fun" versus "strict RP".
I would disagree. "RP fun" with a dwarf randomly greeting and running around with an orc is not "RP fun" at all. Fun it may be, but the RP bit is arguable.
That is the crux; where is balance between strict RP, and "not destroying others rp or fun too (by dominating other plots/storylines)".
Your cycle with the "agressive races" does not illustrate a workaround, but rather, it illustrates the problem.
Correct. It was not meant or intended to illustrate a workaround, but to illustrate what is taking place.
We should all keep in mind that orcs, goblins, giants, and especially dark elves, are all evil. This statement is much like "humans have some number of appendages." There may be an EXTREME few who do not, but they are considered freaks and aberrations (not to be confused with abominations), and would be unheard of among other races.
EDIT: Now, before anyone points to the number of not-totally-evil monstrous PCs we have in game, let me illustrate something, and point to the number of high-level characters we have in game. They ARE that tiny segment; almost all of it. It's like gathering all the pastafarian albino amputees in the world to say "hey! Pastafarian albino amputees are fairly common!"
They are all evil, except for the ones that the characters are meeting. However, it is those ones that the characters are spending the most time with. The characters are not RPing with the "poster children of evil", but the non-hostile loner who is trying to make friends. They color the characters' experience of the traditionally antagonistic race, and cause the erosion of of traditionally antagonistic behaviours.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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:p This is just my opinion,
Not long ago I was RP'ing with an Orc, in the goblin waste lands, it was ok he was demanding the head of the goblin leader and threatened to kill one of our members that was ghosted from death if we didn't hand it over. now on the surface this is pretty fun and we would be hard pressed to stop him before he either went invisible or killed the member. but.. this can never happen and our RP to the threat to me felt fake and dissapointing. this is becuase he would not accept a pvp. (of course not why would he 1 orc vs 5 or 6 others)
I have nothing agaist the player, however I feel that if you play an evil race and you encounter the humans, dwarfs, and elfs etc. you should have to either accept the pvp, or start running away. simple reason because you are the evil race and we don't need any reason to kill you aside from the fact your an evil race. (this is when you are not hiding or diquised) from now on (as long as I remember, feel free to remind me) when I see someone who is otherwise not friendly to Jaigan and of the evil race will request a pvp as soon as I can. This way as we RP it gives us 15 minutes to RP in a way thats more exciting.
I mean really 15 minutes with a dodgey orc or goblin in front of you and at any moment you could say something that could totally this guy off and he jumps out and splits your head open, or the other way around your the orc in front of a party knowing that in a split second they could rush you and do Mistone justice by slaying an evil race, your not going to be standing there demending a goblin head from a party threatening to kill one of their members so easily now. this in my oppinion would help both the evil races and the non-evil races react better in RP to the opposing races the way it's meant to be in Layo's Lore. we need to get off the warm and fuzzy feeling of knowing they can't kill us unless I accept the pvp issue. and thats what it comes down to we have NO reason to be afraid.
If your evil or if your character is face to face with someone who wants to kill you before you start RP'ing the first thing you both should do is get the PvP accepting out of the way so you have 15 minutes of solid on your toes excitment that will both wake you OOC up and also make the IC char watch what he says and does.
If you refuse the PVP then you should be running away as fast as you can or be accepting any demands the one who started the pvp wants as he is obviously the one in control having already accepted the PvP and your refusal means you lost and should be running away ;)
If you run away then thats that they can try to follow you but if you enter a town or any non pvp areas then of course you can't do anything and talking is just talk unless the city guard comes along and wacks the evil race like they should.
This is only for the Lawless Areas, caves, woods, mountains etc. in cities I would asume the city guards should be taking care of it and if an orc is descovered in a city then the first and only thing this orc should be doing is shutting up and high tailing it out of the city as fast as he can. just becuase your a PC evil race and the guards wont attack you (game system limitations) don't exploit it or take it for granted, we all know that in a city there is people all around even if we can't see them (lag reasons) so if you are called out by someone then people will hear, they will look and see and be sure the guards will hear about it and come swords drawn ready to slay the big bad orc in the city.:D (your an evil race get over it haha)
this is just some of the things I started thinking about after today and reading this thread concerning evil races and reacting how we should in RP. I know there is reasons for the PVP being requested and good ones at that, but to me I feel if your dealing with an evil race this is how it should be done and we don't encounter them often and the GM/DM's do a good job making sure who ever do get the Evil races don't abuse it so I think this system can and would be both fun and more challenging for both sides of the fence. I welcome any sugestions and critism or I would not have posted it here :p in the hopes of bringing the Fear back into the Evil Races.
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While I agree that people being blasé about evil race PCs is a problem if everyone is doing it, I would ask to give people the benefit of the doubt about the decisions they make with their characters, (within limits obviously, a voraxian dwarf giving an orc stranger a hug upon meeting is probably pushing it). Aside from individual character decisions, there are many reasons why a someone might be more accepting of evil race PCs... Because this is a game, there is a lot of pressure for people to get along, it just makes the game part of the game easier. While I understand this can wreck the immersion for some people, especially when someone who is outspoken about the supposedly common viewpoint is the only person in a group who is wary of orcs and such, people have to realize, but pointing fingers and saying "you aren't rping well" doesn't really help anything. Speaking personally, when I first joined the server, not having a whole lot of self-confidence in my RP, I found myself with a group of characters who were much more accepting, and (probably without think as hard as I should have about it) simply joined their attitude in the assumption that it was somewhat expected of the good leaning PCs to have more tolerant attitudes. After learning that this really wasn't the case, it was too late to go back and radically change the way I rped towards them; I think this kind of experience is fairly common, because players (especially new ones) don't think about how they'll react to evil PCs ahead of time. With my second character, I was able to consider her background a bit, and concluded that she probably would treat certain races alright, (although often stereotyping and trying to take advantage of their lack of intelligence), while being utterly intolerant of other races. Basically that's a long way of saying, it's difficult to come into the game knowing how to RP with evil races, and if it's really something that the community is concerned about, there needs to be better information, and if it's really a concern, character submissions should include a statement about how the given character feels about evil races, just to make players think a bit more before coming into game.
I guess the other thing is, in RL (at least most of us) have it hammered into our heads to treat everyone as individuals. However much this is a roleplaying game, it can be very difficult for many of us to wrap our heads around blatant racism/speciesism being the dominant viewpoint, and something that is probably a survival skill for most people in the game world ("aw, we should be accepting and friendly to this new dark el*shiv*..."), especially when it is not reinforced by the larger PC community.
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But the ongoing legacy of this campaign is the framework that the Dragon Called characters operated from, and the example that they continue to set, particularly in regard to dealings with traditionally-antagonistic-race characters; it isn't a clean slate.
I suppose this is the main point I fundamentally disagree with. There are -grown men and women- who were born after the Dragon who Called everyone was dead and rotting, and the legacy of the Dragoncalled had started to fade as the sun did.
Now, while there are still a few who're running around, the Dragoncalled are now stuff of legends, rather than reality. What's really hard to grasp on this side of the screen (rather than in the gameworld) is the passage of time; a week passes by in a day for us. Months, in weeks. Hundreds of thousands of people die every year, not even having lived so long as an RL year's time, in-game. The world turns on.
The Dark Ages fundamentally changed the face of Layonara, and the cultures therein; not necessarily in obvious, open ways, but more subtly, the survival of the individual slightly more important, goodwill a bit less bright for having known true suffering. The people of Layonara are jaded, cynical, and fearful. Mayhap not so much as one can point at a random man or woman and say, "There goes a person whose outlook is dimmer than it might've been in an earlier age," but overall, the world is recovering from one of its greatest hardships, and looking forward to another.
It is not a happy, friendly world, but rather a dangerous one. There should be even less reason to trust a stranger now than before; there is no central framework that individual characters are working on right out of the box. Perhaps some characters, who have been around a few dozen times, and have worldly experiences, will look at life a little differently; the old habits of the Dragoncalled die hard.
But there are no more Dragoncalled. There are only the veterans who once were; and certainly none of the new characters and random NPCs I've been talking about most of this time.
It shouldn't have been a clean slate to begin with, anyhow. If you see a lone dark elf, chances are that you'll think "spy," "scout," or "assassin." If you're a longtime friend of the Az'attan church, you might give them the chance to show their alliegence to the Redemptress, but... The automatic response for most, even those who've seen one or two decent members of a given "traditionally antagonistic race," should be instant hostility, even if it's not "I attack to kill it!" hostility, but rather "this is a dangerous thing; I need to be careful" hostility.
I point back to my Pastafarian Albino Amputees... Though let's pretend that these PAAs look just like velociraptors. I don't care if you get an entire city of PAAs together, and visit peacably with them... If you're not living with them for an extended period, the first instinct to a random velociraptor is going to be "Oh no! *Levels shotgun.* Don't even think about eating me."
EDIT: Another point has been made that I wholeheartedly agree with. It goes something along the lines of "you're an evil race, get over it."
While, taken out of context, this seems a bit... Shall we say, abrupt? I still agree with the sentiment behind it.
The entire PURPOSE behind the monstrous PCs seems, to me, to be able to play the shunned and hated outcast. If there were no monstrous races open for PCs, I can -GUARANTEE- that the attitudes towards "monsters" would continue to be the same as a random red-glowing goblin. There would be exceptions, yes, but these would be more often events in characters' lives, rather than the whole scope of a character's life. I.e. the difference between talking to this one goblin, and foregoing the killing of all goblins, ever.
The understanding in playing a monstrous race is that THE CHARACTER IS SEEN AS A MONSTER. That's what makes playing them so difficult. Taking that away, to me, ruins the entire point behind playing them. If all someone wanted was to play a mean-spirited elf, or even a criminal, why not just make a bloody elf? One doesn't have to be a Darkear to be reviled.
It just boggles my mind how anyone could be troubled, much less surprised, that monstrous races would be nearly categorically treated as monsters. It's rather a part of the bargain.
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Ideally perhaps, though the level of hostility is usually defined by the color of the text above them. Most of the people I hear complaining about how drow should be attacked on sight are the very same people who dust off Alantha's bench when she sits down and offer to pour her a glass of lemonade, so to speak. It's funny how in character racism only ever gets RPed when it's 8 on 1 vs. an effortless opponent, but suddenly we're ALL Azattans once the right click yeilds purple. That's why the PVP rules are in place methinks.
If these people were so racist, how come they do chores for Milara? Suddenly you have Lawful Good paladins arguing that they shouldn't go back on their promise to an evil evil drow, evil far beyond his race who has a dracolich on a leash. Isn't there something in a paladin's code about consorting with evil people, and certainly about making promises to serve people with dracoliches on a leash? I didn't see any bylines which said "but its ok to do chores for evil if their name is purple" in those codes of Lucinda, Rofirien and Toran. I don't see anybody challenging a single one of the dark dwarves of Prantz to a fight, save for Varka. Whenever Bjorn tries to recruit people to storm the place, they go pale and forgeArkolio's name on the sign-up sheet. So willing to declare our hatred of dark dwarves we are, until its time to use the bank or crafthall.
Now if Milara was known to be level 4, oh sure, kill him on sight. ;)
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I infact recall a few months back, G'ork trying to travel with some people, and some one then stating that G'ork had been involved in a robbery, and so, had to make a run before the guards came along, and I didn't get to go adventurring! But! I was pleased when I got this response. The party had general concerns about G'ork travelling with them.
G'ork best keep running. *evil grin*
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Saira is almost always hidden for the fact that pretty much everytime she has revealed herself, someone has gone on a crusade to kill her :P, i accept it, i choose to play a dark elf so that i could break the mold a bit and play on the darker side of things, i like being CN, i like being able to shift my mind in a second to suit the mood of my character and her own demand in surviving above all others.
Get on her bad side :), lordy you best hope your deity saves you, she may have a bit of fun with you *Chuckles*.
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Ideally perhaps, though the level of hostility is usually defined by the color of the text above them. Most of the people I hear complaining about how drow should be attacked on sight are the very same people who dust off Alantha's bench when she sits down and offer to pour her a glass of lemonade, so to speak. It's funny how in character racism only ever gets RPed when it's 8 on 1 vs. an effortless opponent, but suddenly we're ALL Azattans once the right click yeilds purple. That's why the PVP rules are in place methinks.
If these people were so racist, how come they do chores for Milara? Suddenly you have Lawful Good paladins arguing that they shouldn't go back on their promise to an evil evil drow, evil far beyond his race who has a dracolich on a leash. Isn't there something in a paladin's code about consorting with evil people, and certainly about making promises to serve people with dracoliches on a leash? I didn't see any bylines which said "but its ok to do chores for evil if their name is purple" in those codes of Lucinda, Rofirien and Toran. I don't see anybody challenging a single one of the dark dwarves of Prantz to a fight, save for Varka. Whenever Bjorn tries to recruit people to storm the place, they go pale and forgeArkolio's name on the sign-up sheet. So willing to declare our hatred of dark dwarves we are, until its time to use the bank or crafthall.
Now if Milara was known to be level 4, oh sure, kill him on sight. ;)
*grins wide*
Maybe no one attacks Alantha because they have heard about her powers ?
Maybe there are those that would be willing to join Bjorn and sack ( or at-least try )Prantz but are in such different time-zones that they cant ? ;)
I wouldn't mind getting a free-card in attacking and killing any spellslinger that travels onto Warrior's Ridge .
If any one can give me a good reason why one that is relying on the weave travels to that place then i am more then curious to hear it .
rp doesn't start or end with races , it also involves type of chars and skills that character excels in .
No magic using character in his or her right mind , not send there by forces stronger and profound , in my eyes would willingly go into an area that strips them off everything they have spend years study and praying on .
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I wouldn't mind getting a free-card in attacking and killing any spellslinger that travels onto Warrior's Ridge .
If any one can give me a good reason why one that is relying on the weave travels to that place then i am more then curious to hear it .
rp doesn't start or end with races , it also involves type of chars and skills that character excels in .
No magic using character in his or her right mind , not send there by forces stronger and profound , in my eyes would willingly go into an area that strips them off everything they have spend years study and praying on .
That seems short-sighted. There are as many reasons for a Wizard to go somewhere he can't cast spells as there are for a Weapon Master to go places he can't kill things. There's more to it than what you can cast a spell or swing a sword at.
You've got me totally confused why it should be open season on any caster who travels there.
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I've really held off on posting this here.. not so much as to cause problems just as I wanted to really think it through..
On a OOC Level as a player who has played in multiple NWN PW's something that I find EXTREMELY hard to get used to is PC's playing alternate raises, I.E. Orc's, Drow etc. and ACTUALLY behaving like they are supposed to. Every PW I've ever been in beside this one the orc likes humans helps humans etc.. heck I've played in one PW where there was a Female Orc that handed out flowers like a beatnick at woodstock.
What I am saying is for those who have been playing in other Mods who are used to seeing these races arent used to the fact that an orc can and is supposed to be bad. I'll tell you when the individual in question in the hempstead fields started threatening my PC. I was a bit blow away at first then my wife had to throw stuff at me cause I was sitting my chair yelling at the screen
"ROCK ON! AN EVIL PC ORC ABOUT BLOODY TIME!"
And often for the those who enjoy Roleplay over Player vs. Player many are not willing to openly PVP. specially if they have been some where were its abused and they have been abused by it.
Needless to say I'm getting into the whole badguy pc thing and used to it. and Like it. If your an Orc you should want to bash in skulls, Unless your history proclaims other wise. nothing wrong with that either but your RP better be backing it up and believably so. Same with any other typically evil race. My PC has meet a couple of Drow who he didnt know where drow and based off their actions until they show him they are he would never guess and actually would vouch for them if need be. Now.. like last night when he learned that one was a drow what did he do? He put drew his blade at them.. but after talking things where worked out.
Simple thing is for me its getting used to things..
Now.. as far as a Character in game.. My PC is a Dragon Called. probably one of the few left. When I first started playing him one of the biggest draws to come to layonara was the if our a PC playing an orc/evil type race your bad. The only time my PC ever saw a bad race was fighting it. and the one time I ran into a drow female type. who turned out to not be that bad as far as liking wise but when the naive fighter type wasn't around it was found later was a murderous deceiving evil wench! and it was GREAT!
I know through reading up on Layo's history that at one point regardless of race etc. you all had to work together.. but for my pc. evil is evil is dead.
Last night we had a situation near Hlint where two orcs came up hunting the weirdest thing I've ever seen in a PW. they called it a 'horse' well one party member wanted to talk to them. so .. we let them here comes another orc and attacks the 'horse' character. a few of us jumped after the orcs slaying the one only to fail to slay the other before it dropped our party member.. and even through it all.. some PC's still wanted to talk to the orc killer.. and as it was walking away and a friendly reminder that it was ok to attack the bad guy from a DM. my pc did. got his buttocks handed to him and saved by some other PC's that assisted but in the end it lead to some great RP about evil being evil regardless of race. and.. some races you just kill on sight for a reason.
Just my .1 true on the matter.. cant afford anything more then that!
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Apologies for backtracking a bit. However, for clarification:
Until they have meet said random orc/goblin/giant/dark elf, RP has been exchanged, and they find them to be "is okay". Once that has occurred, there is the steady erosion of traditionally antagonistic behaviours. That last sentence is the point I am trying to make.
I am coming from the traditionally antagonistic race character point of view, and whom they would RP with.
They are all evil, except for the ones that the characters are meeting. However, it is those ones that the characters are spending the most time with. The characters are not RPing with the "poster children of evil", but the non-hostile loner who is trying to make friends. They color the characters' experience of the traditionally antagonistic race, and cause the erosion of of traditionally antagonistic behaviours.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
I agree with you on a lot of regards Script. I happen to be one of the "evil" races and I do my best to RP him in the image that Layo meant for his race to be. This discussion has comes up a lot over the last 4 years. A good bit of us pushed/requested for the changes that the team came up with to try and "force" or set "guidelines" for how the monster races should be played. One of the biggest changes, that I love and use to argue for all the time, was starting alignments for the monster races to be non-good.
Before the changes were made, you had a ratio of like 10 to 1 for the amount of good played monster races vs traditional non-good monster races. Back then it was easy to point the finger at the team and say that something needed to be done to prevent the approval of good aligned monster races. The team made the changes and now it is up to us as players. If you see a monster race, do what your pc would do, but we as players have to make sure we hold true to the stereo types set by the team for each race. That doesn't mean we can not become friends with monster races, it just should take time and be very rare. There are exceptions to every thing, but again, they need to be rare.
The team has done what they can and set some great guidelines and requirments on how to play the monster races. It is up to the players to follows those and our responsiblity to uphold them.
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I've really held off on posting this here.. not so much as to cause problems just as I wanted to really think it through..
On a OOC Level as a player who has played in multiple NWN PW's something that I find EXTREMELY hard to get used to is PC's playing alternate raises, I.E. Orc's, Drow etc. and ACTUALLY behaving like they are supposed to. Every PW I've ever been in beside this one the orc likes humans helps humans etc.. heck I've played in one PW where there was a Female Orc that handed out flowers like a beatnick at woodstock.
What I am saying is for those who have been playing in other Mods who are used to seeing these races arent used to the fact that an orc can and is supposed to be bad. I'll tell you when the individual in question in the hempstead fields started threatening my PC. I was a bit blow away at first then my wife had to throw stuff at me cause I was sitting my chair yelling at the screen
"ROCK ON! AN EVIL PC ORC ABOUT BLOODY TIME!"
Where are all these orcs people are talking about?? I never have the fun of running into them =P Are they half orcs that people are calling orcs? As far as being one of the few dragon called, there are still a good bit of us out there. I personally do not bring it up due to the in game time that has passed, however as a Dark Elf, my pc might still be alive, but i'm not sure of the exact ingame time that has passed since then.
I just let the whole dragon called thing go so that the staff doesn't lay down some smack and make us start over or something, since our pcs would have died of old age a long time ago! =)
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now i will chiime in here cause i have two of the reviled playing flip sides of the coin
and who i play at the time not to mention while my main is sitting in jail for murder, i guess i play three reviled ones comes to think
when im in a happy go lucky mood as a player
i grab spider and i wander around as a kitten and just have fun not being evil but a drow druid, unheard of
some if they saw me would cut me to shreds and thats fine
some those dragoncalled kids he runs with have half drow cousins they grew up with so hes more relaxed in their company
to some spider is just a dark druid sort who is always hooded and cloaked
to others they know his blood and even some dragoncalled know and they dont hold that past as he serves the oak
now
you want reviled
ill give you reviled
Phaeyr on the other side of the coin, is when i have had the worst possible day, and need to be a cynical sob
he gives paladins indigestion
he sends headaches to the toranites
though they dont know him by more then the collector or charles
they cant stand him
and as such when he dies getting caught in the middle of a broken line of fighters
is it a surprise he is left for dead to rot
not at all
and unless some of the rather non goodies who ride the fence from time to time were present i expect to be dead the whole time
he is immoral, remorseless and will fil any contract for the right price
why
he is a drow who got sick of being a peon below, and he went to find greener pastures
a surface full of people who some welcome him with open arms
they died
and those who threaten to vaporise him if he gets to close to cause gut wrenching body pain
surprise they are alive
why cause he cant think of killing them yet, but maybe in time
if i wanted to play another dragoncalled i have one who has been sitting in his shrub for a year and a half i made as a original backup to drogo
not yet his time will come
for now i enjoy being able to play to suit my mood, and let others have fun being who they are too
you hate the darkie fine hes worth hating
but dont go into an alley alone without your spells ready
and those who run with spider
hes slow to befriend anyone
but he wont forget who sheds blood beside him and doesnt leave like his blod kin had so many decades before
be mean to the drow, until you learn otherwise
why cause your suposed to
and one day it might save you in the alley
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That seems short-sighted. There are as many reasons for a Wizard to go somewhere he can't cast spells as there are for a Weapon Master to go places he can't kill things. There's more to it than what you can cast a spell or swing a sword at.
You've got me totally confused why it should be open season on any caster who travels there.
I'm sorry if it confused you , the spellslingers going to places they are as weak as puppies was just an example .
And yes , a WeaponMaster going to places he is as weak as a newborn puppy is also something a character like that wouldn't do without a GOOD reason .
Weaponmasters in particular are forced to put points in intelligence and should therefor know better , i cant say what stats are used to play a spellslinger type but i would suspect either intelligence or wisdom being one of them .
Over the years i read and heard a lot of people complaining about the rp and mostly ( like every-one i myself do that as-well ) about OTHERS characters that are played wrong .
The interaction with other characters is usually not what is complained about , but more what a character does for his/herself that is frowned upon .
( or rather : what a character is UNWILLING to do for another character )
This behavior has lead and will always lead to players knit together to only those they know and therefor will always result in newer players only meeting the other new players or the older ones that already have untied themselves from the groups they used to be in and while in them totally ignoring others until they are strong/powerful/useful enough to play with , with the exceptions of quests of-course .
If you look at the example of the spellslinger in a NON-magical zone , or the weaponmaster in the area he cant hurt a creature then you get a small glimpse of how to totally make your own character a joke .
This can be expanded to most things on the server .
A quest ( plot or not ) a call for aid by a faith that is at best unfriendly towards your own faith , but still a character shows up .
( done that myself and was like most : " i need the exp and its the place to find rp " )
A nature-lover being one off the best in tailoring or wood-crafting .
(tried some tailoring myself , the amount of skins needed is simply too big to stuff it away as " it were all deceased animals " )
A character that isn't able to mine going to places that only have things to mine in them .
A pacifist running into battle first .
All things that , if looked to from an outside point off view , are strange rp to say the least .
Again . I'm not aiming to any one in particular , just giving examples of things i myself find strange in the otherwise good rp of characters here.
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Okay, I understand the point now. Thanks.
A caster going to a no-magic area alone might be pretty weird, but if he is with a group... Well, more possibilities there. Maybe he's there to toss potions in case of trouble while they explore, even if he's reluctant to go, because he's Good and doesn't want them to be in any more trouble than they have to be. And who knows, maybe he can try to learn why the Weave has a hole in it while he's there.
I agree that some people do things that seem really out of character, like a pacifist charging, or a Rofireinite suggesting to threaten a ship captain's life to force him to sail somewhere he doesn't want to, hey? *nudge, nudge*
But not everything that seems wrong necessarily is. We don't necessarily know why other people are doing what they are doing, and a polite PM later might help clear up the confusion or set them on a better path (were they slipping). While everyone should try hard to consider the sense behind their characters' actions, we shouldn't become overly critical when people falter now and then. And while I certainly appreciate the tight RP rules, I don't think they are so draconian that someone can't have an off day without punishment or can't have their mage go explore some neat no-magic zone; just carry an RP reason on the trip with you and don't overdo it.
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Okay, I understand the point now. Thanks.
A caster going to a no-magic area alone might be pretty weird, but if he is with a group... Well, more possibilities there. Maybe he's there to toss potions in case of trouble while they explore, even if he's reluctant to go, because he's Good and doesn't want them to be in any more trouble than they have to be. And who knows, maybe he can try to learn why the Weave has a hole in it while he's there.
I agree that some people do things that seem really out of character, like a pacifist charging, or a Rofireinite suggesting to threaten a ship captain's life to force him to sail somewhere he doesn't want to, hey? *nudge, nudge*
But not everything that seems wrong necessarily is. We don't necessarily know why other people are doing what they are doing, and a polite PM later might help clear up the confusion or set them on a better path (were they slipping). While everyone should try hard to consider the sense behind their characters' actions, we shouldn't become overly critical when people falter now and then. And while I certainly appreciate the tight RP rules, I don't think they are so draconian that someone can't have an off day without punishment or can't have their mage go explore some neat no-magic zone; just carry an RP reason on the trip with you and don't overdo it.
I agree on the "off-day " theory and like i said before , i'm not the best rp er out there so i too make mistakes ;)
I more started to answer to point out what was on the bottom of my first post .
READ UP ON YOUR CHARACTER AND FAITH AND RP ACCORDINGLY TO IT :)
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Please forgive a comment from a very casual player (who will be coming back soon as soon as my job ends)...
Speaking purely as a player (not for my various characters) I formed my own stereotypes based on my experiences. One is that monster characters were almost always played as cuddly and "wuvable", more often than not and whether they know it or not aiming to be Lennie from Of Mice and Men. Another is that elves are best avoided, as they were the most likely to be stuck-up pains to deal with in character and out, at least lower-level ones. Your mileage may vary and of course there are many exceptions but that was my general impression. Thus whether it was "correct" RP or not I tending to be attracted to grouping with that bumbling but friendly Half Giant instead of the new haughty elf because it was just more, well, fun.
There's another factor, too, which is that we all live in a very PC real world where racism is a huge taboo. That's a good thing, but it's hard for many of us to play racist in the game, particularly when we don't see evidence of why we should be so in the general storytelling. There's a pretty simple solution to this problem, in my opinion.. If people are being too friendly to orcs, teach them a lesson. Send the friendliest orc their way, have them cuddle and coddle it, and then when the time is right have the orc double cross them in a cruel and violent way. Turns out it was a scout and his vicious tribe was following not far behind, something like that. They'll learn. If the monster races are being played as too friendly then they need to face some adversity to beat them down. Maybe NPC patrols on the trails to harass them, etc. I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but people do have to be trained a bit to hate and fear.
Anyway, the most evil and unpleasant villains have always been humans and near-humans. Orcs and goblins may be cruel thugs who ambush you on the highways but should they really be feared more than that shady human who may be a Corathite able to summon a Balor? Note that this probably doesn't apply to Drow, or say an army of well-trained orcs, but that scraggly band by the side of the road may not be the biggest thing to fear in a very hostile fantasy world. Considering how many members of the "good" races are just as cruel at heart as any monster, and able to attain considerably more power while blending in to society, I would think most characters should be played as really not trusting anyone...
From what I've seen the playerbase here is more than willing to bend over backwards to give the DMs what they want, and are extremely quick (and hungry!) to pick up storylines-- unfortunately it's not always clear what the DMs want, and the storytelling will often drift not to what it perhaps has been envisioned to be, but what the group of players who happens to inhabit the world at the time make it to be. The one thing I never really liked about this server (and don't get me wrong because I like almost every thing else) is the tendency to reprimand the general playerbase for perceived problems much like this, when in my opinion it could easily be resolved in the game itself with great storytelling to boot.
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to Ondioline: You have PC orcs and NPC orcs. there is a difference. Players act different on them.