The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pen N Popper on September 17, 2008, 11:52:01 am
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This will come off as grumbling, which it partly is, but a discussion of the topic in general would be welcome.
Are rust monsters fun in any regard?
Some background: My PC lost his adamantium greataxe with a 3rd enchant on it to a rust monster on a GM quest. On another GM quest today there was literally a room full of rust monsters. It was completely IC for my PC to panic and not go anywhere near them. Honestly, though, those things OOCly made my head ring with pain. Is there a growing theme here? Is it puroseful?
Assume that you play a PC that worked very hard to get a metal item, say a RL month or more. Now imagine losing it through no fault of your own. Very frustrating, especially knowing that it will likely take at least that long again to reacquire the item.
I'm just wondering if rust monsters are fun or just a source of OOC grief. Couldn't they instead unequip the item and remove from quickslots? This would hinder battle and on a GM quest would allow the GM to say something like, "Your axe's metal is scarred and pitted, it will need a lot of cleaning before you can use it again."
Yes, I am still working hard to acquire a replacement for my greataxe. I'm sure you've seen my pleading trade&market forum posts. I am still several RL weeks away from working ingame enough to stay out of debt for a new one.
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Playing Rust Monster's Advocate here...
There are a couple of reasons to want to create something that literally destroys magical or useful items. For one, aside from PC's foolish enough to attack CNR with their hand-to-hand weaponry, weapons don't break, don't go 'bad', don't in fact show any wear whatsoever. Rust monsters, while perhaps punishing to those who rely wholly upon metal objects, are a reasonably seldom-used monster capable of removing some of these powerful 'magical' items from play.
Of course, if you're looking for a less mechanics-driven reason, there's also the fact that there's very little that can 'scare' an adventurer PC it would seem. One of the things that features prominently in RL horror movies is a fear of, say, the walking dead. As such creatures are considered by adventurers to be annoying facts of life as often as not, this holds little terror for them. Similarly, demons, aberrations, and monsters in general hold little enough fear for adventurers with no particular fear of death. There are exceptions, of course, but whereas most soldiers would prefer not to encounter a group of powerful heavily-armed foes, adventurers go giant-slaying on a fairly regular basis.
It's hard to put the fear of gods into adventurers for whom dealing with the terrifying and incredible is a matter of course. I'm not saying that rust monsters should be used liberally - indeed, they are supposed to be aberrations, freaks of supernature - but there should be creatures like rust monsters that can leave the boldest fighter a little nervous to say the least.
*Shrugs* I'm not saying I necessarily agree with using rust monsters in this capacity, but sometimes a little risk - if not presented overzealously - can be an effective tool, either as a deterrent against 'run in and bash', or as a challenge to be worked around. As well, if you're looking to make a 'horror movie' for an armed and armoured fighter, 'day of the rust monster' might be a good one.
Just my two cents. Make of it what you will.
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Of course, if you're looking for a less mechanics-driven reason, there's also the fact that there's very little that can 'scare' an adventurer PC it would seem. One of the things that features prominently in RL horror movies is a fear of, say, the walking dead. As such creatures are considered by adventurers to be annoying facts of life as often as not, this holds little terror for them. Similarly, demons, aberrations, and monsters in general hold little enough fear for adventurers with no particular fear of death. There are exceptions, of course, but whereas most soldiers would prefer not to encounter a group of powerful heavily-armed foes, adventurers go giant-slaying on a fairly regular basis.
It's hard to put the fear of gods into adventurers for whom dealing with the terrifying and incredible is a matter of course. I'm not saying that rust monsters should be used liberally - indeed, they are supposed to be aberrations, freaks of supernature - but there should be creatures like rust monsters that can leave the boldest fighter a little nervous to say the least.
I cant agree with this more. Just the other day on a quest (one of my last) I rolled out the big bad guy if front of the adventurers and even though it was clear by all accounts that he was a BIG bad guy the adventurers chose to be glib with him and make fun of him. Now if I had attacked the group with him and he is his invulnerable state killed them all and SS were lost the group would have called foul on me. So they had no fear of him at all. Now if I had rolled out a 100% magic resistant high DR high HP high AB and damage rust monster they would have wet their pants and ran for the hills at full speed. So it is really both a IG and OOC thing at the same time. How do you scare players? There are only a few way to answer that and none of them will make the player community happy.
NOTE: Next time you see a room full of rust monsters, and you dont have a monk with you, Take off your armor, disarm yourself, take off all your magic items, pull out that oak club you have stuffed in your bag, and go see how you do :)
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What good are rust monster?
1. Rust monsters are scary as was pointed out by the last post.
2. It can be quite amusing to a not so wholesome character to watch a big dumb fighter lose his sword or armor.
3. The loss can lead to all kind of RP.
a. The guy in number 2 can make fun of the fighter and make a nice enemy or at lease get pummeled a bit.
b. The guy that lost X, now can go buy a new one or, perhaps through some persuasion get some friends to feel sorry and replace it.
c. I'm sure there is more! Run with it.
Now, I think their existence is easily justified so on to why they aren't a big deal.
Even if you "specialize" in a certain weapon, it really is not very bright to never have alternatives. Carry an extra wooden club. Improvise and whip out a fishing pole. If it's a GM related thing, don't get locked into mechanics. Just because you are in a barren stock "dungeon/cave" room, doesn't always mean it is empty. Make sure to ask if there is anything around. Maybe there is a table, break the leg off. Maybe there are some logs/sticks. I'm sure any GM would grant you a basic wooden club to act as that table leg or log. Can't hit anything with a plain old club?? Well, of course you brought along a mage or cleric right? Just whip up a GMW and it's a super club.
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All well formulated responses, thanks. I'm sure in time this loss will seem trivial to me.
I must say that had I seen the original rust monster, there is no way OOCly I would have engaged at all. I don't think anyone bothers to roll a LORE check when they see that floaty text.
Thanks!
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um... in the sake of fairness... is there a creature that eats wooden weapons and shields? Or leather armor? Or moths of doom that eat magic clothing and hoods?
Not that I'm aware of.
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Moth of DOOM! I'm totally using that monster in one of my PnP campaigns.
Although, the folks that don't use metal stuff likely wouldn't be anymore bothered by a creature that devours wooden clubs in an instant, than a rust monster. This is because they'd likely deal with both creatures in the same way: through empathy, rather than trying to kill it.
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*Shrugs* In the sake of fairness, by and large, wooden weapons and shields are seen as less desirable. Similarly, leather armour is not favourably comparable to its metal counterparts in most circumstances, and magic clothing and hoods tend to be less useful than, say, a suit of armour or a weapon. Add in to that fact the fact that in many cases, equippables are not quite as their counterpart appears - the circlet of the confidante is neither a hood nor a helm, but rather something rather resembling a laurel - and it's understandable why there might be more of a focus on the big expensive items.
Should there be creatures that attack wooden weapons? Dire termites? Dire moths? Possibly. However, the rust monster also has the 'advantage' of being a classic D&D monster. I suppose it's easy to say that only using something that attacks metal 'picks on' fighters, but they certainly have the leather and wood alternatives to the gear that such creatures are the bane of.
Whether or not rust monsters should affect metal reinforced clothing is contentious at best.
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I lost my prized scimitar that I toiled for a month for back in Jan./04 to a group of rust monsters that spawned right on top of me. It stunk, I left the game as it was the straw that broke the camel's back on a particularly trying time in my Layonara life. I had recently just been asked and thus stepped down as a GM as well at the time and there was serious drama involving other respected community members. In the end it was a blessing.
Sorted out my life and came back a few months later much happier and soon found myself leading the Layonara development. I remember logging back in in the Underdark the first time I came back and had to find my way back all by myself.
I lost my prized shield on the final episode of my WLDQ to a metal eating Delver? I think it was called. It was a serious challenge to continue without, Brisbane relinquished her shield to me to continue and put herself at grave risk. I was really disheartened at the time, but it went away. It made the story that much more epic.
I don't know what these anecdotes have to do with anything except to say losing items unexpectedly have been significant factors in Plen's life. Never have I felt it was unfair or not fun. I just felt angry that it happened to me.
And I just wanted to reaffirm PnP, you'll get over it and it will make just one more interesting chapter you'll remember. Getting past hardships is what makes the story that much more compelling.
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Interesting points raised here :)
I was on the quest which led to this question and overall I had a great time. Really enjoyed then banter in the group and I think the Gm did a sterling job of letting us bicker our way ahead.
Personally I hold that at the end of the day a succesful game is one in which all the players enjoyed themselves. People are different and what upsets and ruins it for players differ from person to person. I dont think a gm can ever cater to all tastes, but I think that a gm should hold this perspective as a prime consideration. As a gm asking yourself "would I enjoy this?" isnt good enough, you have to ask yourself "would he also enjoy it?".
What good are rust monster?
1. Rust monsters are scary as was pointed out by the last post.
I am not sure I consider this as valid an argument as it appears. Playing the devils advocate here I think the GM who cant scare his players without using "do or die" mechanisms need to go back basics. You frighten players by building up the suspense and creating the right atmosphere. ;)
2. It can be quite amusing to a not so wholesome character to watch a big dumb fighter lose his sword or armor.
Yep to the character, but we are talking about the PLAYERS, not characters.
3. The loss can lead to all kind of RP.
a. The guy in number 2 can make fun of the fighter and make a nice enemy or at lease get pummeled a bit.
b. The guy that lost X, now can go buy a new one or, perhaps through some persuasion get some friends to feel sorry and replace it.
c. I'm sure there is more! Run with it.
Yes, but show me the player who will enjoy loosing their cobalt fullplate, adamantium chainmail or that mithril drop sword they bought for their lifesavings.
a. The guy in number can make fun of the fighter, but he is more likely to upset the player further and sadly we cant reach out through the screen and knock people about ;)
b. The guy that lost X can now restart the grind that earned the true for said item or pray that the rare loot drop will come up in an auction he can afford.
c. Run with it or loose it ....
Now, I think their existence is easily justified so on to why they aren't a big deal.
Now I dont think their existence is justified so on to why they are a big deal :)-
Even if you "specialize" in a certain weapon, it really is not very bright to never have alternatives. Carry an extra wooden club. Improvise and whip out a fishing pole. If it's a GM related thing, don't get locked into mechanics. Just because you are in a barren stock "dungeon/cave" room, doesn't always mean it is empty. Make sure to ask if there is anything around. Maybe there is a table, break the leg off. Maybe there are some logs/sticks. I'm sure any GM would grant you a basic wooden club to act as that table leg or log. Can't hit anything with a plain old club?? Well, of course you brought along a mage or cleric right? Just whip up a GMW and it's a super club.
I have played and/or gm'ed in PnP D&D, Fantasy Grounds D&D, Turn based D&D (on the computer) and Neverwinter nights.
In PnP or Fantasy grounds I love rustmonsters, I also love shadowdancing/invisible foes, death traps, curses and picppocketing rogues. In Neverwinter Nights I hate them, why?
Simply speaking there is a world of difference between those and yes game mechanics, speed of typing and mouse agility do matter. if I meet a rustmonster in PnP I can take precautions and discuss my actions in detail with the gm. In neverwinter nights I can in theory do the same, but practise it is very different.
Most likely before I am finished typing a detailed response someone has taken a swing and events have moved ahead. If not, then the GM has most likely been carpet-bombed with tells, dicerolls and requests, AND even though he has asked the players to slow down, someone will have ignored it and gone ahead.
GMing is hard at the best of times, adding things which further complicate it can make it impossible for even the ablest gm. Sadly it is not a likely GM requirement to have eight arms and four heads. ;)
I loathe rustmonsters, I loathe shadowdancing foes because they "abuse" the game engine, I loathe tiny fast foes because I as a player cant hit/target them with the mouse. Add lag to any of these and as a player I have little impact on the outcome.
Having said all this in argumen against rustmonsters I will say the one argument I hold for them:
In my opinion the key to a great game is giving the GM freehands to tell his story. As long as the GM is true and loyal to the world and the values of the server, he should have free hands.
I dont wish for rustmonster or any monsters to be banned, but I still hope they arent used.
:)
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On the plus side, imagine the chaos that would ensue if you managed to smuggle just one of these little guys in with a burlap sack and toss him in the bank vault pile with all of Rael's money.
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Playing Rust Monster's Advocate here...
There are a couple of reasons to want to create something that literally destroys magical or useful items. For one, aside from PC's foolish enough to attack CNR with their hand-to-hand weaponry, weapons don't break, don't go 'bad', don't in fact show any wear whatsoever. Rust monsters, while perhaps punishing to those who rely wholly upon metal objects, are a reasonably seldom-used monster capable of removing some of these powerful 'magical' items from play.
I have lost 3 dragon slayer swords, countless shields, and many many more amulets, rings, and weapons from the "full" inventory bug. That bug is the real monster...
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For one, aside from PC's foolish enough to attack CNR with their hand-to-hand weaponry
Not all striking of CNR with weapons is caused by foolishness. In fact, I'm pretty sure a significant part of it is due to misclicks.
Rust monsters, while perhaps punishing to those who rely wholly upon metal objects...
Remove the "perhaps".
...are a reasonably seldom-used monster capable of removing some of these powerful 'magical' items from play.
Why? To what end? People seem have this idea that taking hard earned things away from characters is "a good thing". But unless its part of some greater storyline, it doesn't have any meaning, and only creates grief for the player involved.
Of course, if you're looking for a less mechanics-driven reason, there's also the fact that there's very little that can 'scare' an adventurer PC it would seem. One of the things that features prominently in RL horror movies is a fear of, say, the walking dead. As such creatures are considered by adventurers to be annoying facts of life as often as not, this holds little terror for them. Similarly, demons, aberrations, and monsters in general hold little enough fear for adventurers with no particular fear of death.
You are only scared by things that you do not know. In a world full of undead, daemons, aberrations and other monsters, these things, as you succinctly put it, are facts of life.
There are exceptions, of course, but whereas most soldiers would prefer not to encounter a group of powerful heavily-armed foes, adventurers go giant-slaying on a fairly regular basis.
"Powerful" is a measure of how much damage they can cause you. In the real world, certain level of injuries have a permanent and lasting affect. In Layonara, the only permanent injury is the loss of a Soul Strand. Thus, "powerful" is a creature that can kill you before you can kill it. So, if you can kill giants without being killed, they are not "powerful".
You are not taking into account all the areas where people don't go because the monsters are so deadly.
It's hard to put the fear of gods into adventurers for whom dealing with the terrifying and incredible is a matter of course.
Exactly.
I'm not saying that rust monsters should be used liberally - indeed, they are supposed to be aberrations, freaks of supernature - but there should be creatures like rust monsters that can leave the boldest fighter a little nervous to say the least.
Running around with one Soul Strand has a similar effect. People become very thoughtful about the activities in which they engage. You could say that they have had the "fear of the gods" put into them, but that is not seen in the game so clearly.
*Shrugs* I'm not saying I necessarily agree with using rust monsters in this capacity, but sometimes a little risk - if not presented overzealously - can be an effective tool, either as a deterrent against 'run in and bash', or as a challenge to be worked around.
As a frontline fighter, what other option is there (not just in this case, but in all cases) apart from "rush in and bash"? The aim is to remove the threat as quickly as possible, that means closing with the enemy quickly and engaging in combat. "Run in and bash" is not "a bad thing".
I cant agree with this more. Just the other day on a quest (one of my last) I rolled out the big bad guy if front of the adventurers and even though it was clear by all accounts that he was a BIG bad guy the adventurers chose to be glib with him and make fun of him.
You can blame the culture of glib movie heroes for that. The players/characters soon work it out as each individual offending smart mouth is struck down.
NOTE: Next time you see a room full of rust monsters, and you dont have a monk with you, Take off your armor, disarm yourself, take off all your magic items, pull out that oak club you have stuffed in your bag, and go see how you do :)
Is changing armor really an appropriate course of action? I know people whip their armor off and on when resting, but in the middle of a hostile situation?
What good are rust monster?
1. Rust monsters are scary as was pointed out by the last post.
2. It can be quite amusing to a not so wholesome character to watch a big dumb fighter lose his sword or armor.
If its not your sword/armor thats just been lost. Schadenfreude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude) is hardly something we should be encouraging.
3. The loss can lead to all kind of RP.
a. The guy in number 2 can make fun of the fighter and make a nice enemy or at lease get pummeled a bit.
b. The guy that lost X, now can go buy a new one or, perhaps through some persuasion get some friends to feel sorry and replace it.
Or not. The system is not set up for the easy replacement of lost items. These items were hard to get the first time, and will be hard again to replace.
Having to replace something you had is demoralising.
Even if you "specialize" in a certain weapon, it really is not very bright to never have alternatives. Carry an extra wooden club. Improvise and whip out a fishing pole.
So, are you suggesting people carry around more equipment in their inventories?
If it's a GM related thing, don't get locked into mechanics. Just because you are in a barren stock "dungeon/cave" room, doesn't always mean it is empty. Make sure to ask if there is anything around. Maybe there is a table, break the leg off. Maybe there are some logs/sticks. I'm sure any GM would grant you a basic wooden club to act as that table leg or log. Can't hit anything with a plain old club?? Well, of course you brought along a mage or cleric right? Just whip up a GMW and it's a super club.
This sort of improv is hard to do in the middle of combat.
I lost my prized shield on the final episode of my WLDQ to a metal eating Delver? I think it was called. It was a serious challenge to continue without, Brisbane relinquished her shield to me to continue and put herself at grave risk. I was really disheartened at the time, but it went away. It made the story that much more epic.
Losing an item as part of a problem that contributes to the resolution of a quest is probably the only time this would work. Then it becomes part of the story that you are participating in; it has meaning. Otherwise, its just bum luck. Its like losing Soul Strands, I prefer to lose them on a quest where at least it would mean something.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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Much as I prefer my points to be viewed and addressed as a whole rather than dissected and addressed individually, I do have a few defenses and rebuttals for my position. You'll have to forgive me if I don't 'quote' the points that I am addressing separately - it would simply get too segmented, and I want to address just a few of my points.
I think it can generally be agreed upon that most adventurers possessed of a full compliment - or even a majority - of their allotted soul strands have what one might refer to as 'no fear of death.' I play a character with only a single soul strand left. He's exceptionally careful about what he does in a day, and has died only once in the last three months or so. It's not an unreasonable point, I should think, to state that dying hurts, and not just fiscally. The process, at least as most adventurers frequently engage in it, is painful, and should theoretically be avoided whenever possible.
Regarding facing off against giants, again I fear I must disagree. I was not using 'powerful' as a relative term - indeed, I was attempting to be as objective as possible. The lack of fear of death is in many cases what makes adventurers daring enough to face off against foes which - and they still are in many cases - would be considered 'mighty' by the majority of the world's population. Given the number of graves I frequently see in areas of giant spawns, it would seem that a number of the 'daring adventurers' would be inclined to agree with me.
If death is not the final blow, and holds little consequence for the adventurer who rolls lucky versus the soul mother - as so many frequently do - and banks his coin, what then is there to fear from it? And if there is nothing, then perhaps some other consequence needs to be there for rushing into a situation instead of considering various tactics. When a fighter sees a rust monster across the room, the tactic assumed might not be one of 'rush in and beat it to death', but rather 'find an alternate method of removing the threat'. I haven't seen rust monsters in the areas they used to spawn recently, and the only anecdotal evidence I've heard of recently has been quest-related, so one would presume that such monsters are infrequently met up with when one is by oneself - perhaps this is a job for the mages and clerics and archers? Rush in and bash IS a bad thing, if the consequences of 'rush in and bash' are unfavourable.
Without meaning to get too wordy, a few other points. There have been notions raised that a good GM can inspire an ambiance of fear without using a mechanical threat such as a rust monster. Certainly a GM can cause thematic fear, but only occasionally does this tie into a fear of consequences.
On a perhaps related note, 'removing powerful items from the economy' is viewed as a 'good thing', because there's a bottomless well of the things. Aside from rust monsters, metal eating delvers, and hitting trees, weapons don't 'go bad'. People are constantly complaining that crafting nets less and less profit each year. Part of this is due to an influx of crafters, but a not-insignificant part may be attributed to the ever-increasing supply. While it is something of a blow for a character to lose their 'hard won' equipment - and I don't mean to trivialize such a loss, as it is a significant inconvenience - such items can be replaced. Not all losses must be essential to a story, or even thematic. If the sword was hundred-folded steel, cooled from the forge in the spring waters of Ice Reach, and then fed the blood of tyrants, that becomes a more significant loss - and certainly one which one might take a CDQ to repair. If instead you bought an iron longsword, and it cost you a couple thousand coins, it's a story roughly equivocable to "I went to the store and got a tin of beans, but they went bad so I had to throw them out." It's still an inconvenience, and certainly you are due some sympathy, but you don't always lose a soul strand on a quest - and nor should you. Adventurers live a dangerous life.
Monsters are facts of life. Adventurers grow quite adept at dealing with them, but sometimes monsters that are not threats to your life can be threats to things which are surprisingly more important, such as your material possessions. I understand that people may feel irked if they lose a valued possession, but I do believe that the rust monster is simply a different sort of consequence.
Just my two cents.
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If I may, for a moment interject.
Whilst I have not been here long I have extensive experience in tabletop gaming. I have found that in tabletop games, movies and all other similar scenario's that the unknown is what gives fear, not the known. This unknown factor can come from many things. Capture for example may induce fear as time spent inside of the dungeon of an evil villain at the hands of torture and such forth may also induce fear, both OOC and IC as it represents pain and suffering for a character and time lost playing for the person.
By conveying a fear of something foreboding and evil one is able to induce fear far better than when the enemy is known. Many situations help induce this fear, ambushes, surprises, twists, turns and gruesomely descriptive scenes.
When you walk down a hallway with no prompts or story from the GM, you are often left with a situation which screams generic dungeon bash. I believe that appropriate comments and situations combined can lead to a situation which induces fear.
I do not argue that rust monsters are, or are not necessary, my opinion is that they are acceptable in a situation which makes sense. I believe, that in the dungeon which myself and pnp were in they did not make sense. The Rust monster would have eaten the equipment of other creatures inhabiting that space or at least attempted to and thus been killed. The ecology of the creature in question did not fit with the ecology of the other denizens of the dungeon. I find it hard to believe that creatures relying upon metal equipment would also tolerate the presence of such a creature.
The point should never be is this fair OOC, is this nice OOC, but does this make sense within the confines of the rules of the world we are in? The rust monster inhabits a cave with other aberrations then in my opinion that is fine as most aberrations don't use weaponry. If it inhabits a cave with ghosts then that may also be justified.
It is also worth noting that adventurers by and large are people whom the normal and 'mundane' combat situations are more every day occurrences, these are people who have forsaken the normal day and life they left behind and decided for whatever reason to adventure and live a life of danger which often entails a gruesome and quick end. The word adventurer itself entails some degree of a person who thrives upon or seeks out things which a normal person would fear.
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Ah, but if rust monsters are only found around aberrations and ghosts, what do those rust monsters eat?
Sorry, cheap shot, but they can't RELY on adventurers...
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Much as I prefer my points to be viewed and addressed as a whole rather than dissected and addressed individually, I do have a few defenses and rebuttals for my position. You'll have to forgive me if I don't 'quote' the points that I am addressing separately - it would simply get too segmented, and I want to address just a few of my points.
I apologies to you, and to everyone else whose posts I have dissected in reply; I do appreciate that a post is greater than the sum of its parts. However, I do like to make sure that when I am saying something, people know what part of the whole (without excluding the rest of the whole), it is in response to. It also saves me from having to establish that myself before hand. :)
I think it can generally be agreed upon that most adventurers possessed of a full compliment - or even a majority - of their allotted soul strands have what one might refer to as 'no fear of death.'
When you're young, you're supposed to be like that. Its only when you've learnt a few hard lessons that the reckless youth becomes less foolhardy.
I play a character with only a single soul strand left. He's exceptionally careful about what he does in a day, and has died only once in the last three months or so. It's not an unreasonable point, I should think, to state that dying hurts, and not just fiscally. The process, at least as most adventurers frequently engage in it, is painful, and should theoretically be avoided whenever possible.
*nods* :)
Regarding facing off against giants, again I fear I must disagree. I was not using 'powerful' as a relative term - indeed, I was attempting to be as objective as possible.
Power is always a relative term, otherwise it is impossible to understand. It has to be in terms of something that you understand the power of, which is usually yourself.
The lack of fear of death is in many cases what makes adventurers daring enough to face off against foes which - and they still are in many cases - would be considered 'mighty' by the majority of the world's population. Given the number of graves I frequently see in areas of giant spawns, it would seem that a number of the 'daring adventurers' would be inclined to agree with me.
This is another common misconception, that "graves" equals "foolhardy play". Until you know how powerful something is relative to yourself, you do not know how dangerous it is. Sadly, the threat rating from "poking" the creature is often inaccurate. Therefore, the only way to find out is to engage it. "Whoops, too strong, I'm dead, won't do that again." This is not (necessarily) from lack of fear of death, but quite possibly inexperience.
If death is not the final blow, and holds little consequence for the adventurer who rolls lucky versus the soul mother - as so many frequently do - and banks his coin, what then is there to fear from it?
The random nature of the Soul Strand loss has been discussed at length. Rust monsters are not a solution to luck.
And if there is nothing, then perhaps some other consequence needs to be there for rushing into a situation instead of considering various tactics.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! I'm afraid you are going too far off on a tangent, here. This is proposing a fundamental change to the consequences of death, which might be a point for discussion, but perhaps worthy of its own thread.
When a fighter sees a rust monster across the room, the tactic assumed might not be one of 'rush in and beat it to death', but rather 'find an alternate method of removing the threat'.
For a frontline fighter, what might that be? Run away? Everything runs at the same speed, as well as the issue of "dragging".
I haven't seen rust monsters in the areas they used to spawn recently...
That might be due to a change in your character's level.
...and the only anecdotal evidence I've heard of recently has been quest-related, so one would presume that such monsters are infrequently met up with when one is by oneself - perhaps this is a job for the mages and clerics and archers?
Assuming there are mages and clerics to be called upon.
Rush in and bash IS a bad thing, if the consequences of 'rush in and bash' are unfavourable.
Unfortunately, the "if" tends to get left off, forgetting the condition.
"Rush in and bash" (in itself) is not "a bad thing".
"Rush in and bash rust monsters" is "a bad (detrimental) thing".
Without meaning to get too wordy, a few other points. There have been notions raised that a good GM can inspire an ambiance of fear without using a mechanical threat such as a rust monster. Certainly a GM can cause thematic fear, but only occasionally does this tie into a fear of consequences.
Give consequences, then. I know a few characters who have learnt the consequences of speaking out of turn to a certain dragon.
On a perhaps related note, 'removing powerful items from the economy' is viewed as a 'good thing'...
Do you believe that enough to dump your good items in the trash can?
...because there's a bottomless well of the things.
That well has so far proved elusive to Dubbel.
Aside from rust monsters, metal eating delvers, and hitting trees, weapons don't 'go bad'. People are constantly complaining that crafting nets less and less profit each year. Part of this is due to an influx of crafters, but a not-insignificant part may be attributed to the ever-increasing supply.
Rust monsters are not the solution to the problems with the crafting system.
While it is something of a blow for a character to lose their 'hard won' equipment - and I don't mean to trivialize such a loss, as it is a significant inconvenience - such items can be replaced. Not all losses must be essential to a story, or even thematic. If the sword was hundred-folded steel, cooled from the forge in the spring waters of Ice Reach, and then fed the blood of tyrants, that becomes a more significant loss - and certainly one which one might take a CDQ to repair. If instead you bought an iron longsword, and it cost you a couple thousand coins, it's a story roughly equivocable to "I went to the store and got a tin of beans, but they went bad so I had to throw them out."
I don't believe we are refering to "just" iron weapons here.
It's still an inconvenience, and certainly you are due some sympathy, but you don't always lose a soul strand on a quest - and nor should you. Adventurers live a dangerous life.
Monsters are facts of life. Adventurers grow quite adept at dealing with them, but sometimes monsters that are not threats to your life can be threats to things which are surprisingly more important, such as your material possessions. I understand that people may feel irked if they lose a valued possession, but I do believe that the rust monster is simply a different sort of consequence.
Just my two cents.
The consequence of the loss is far greater than the reward for overcoming the rust monster; it is a lose/not-lose situation (there is no "win").
And apologies if I am being/coming across as (too) haranguing.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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*Sighs* You are.
Very well. To each his own. I maintain my position, and will clarify any points in my argument that people find nebulous or unclear.
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Ah, but if rust monsters are only found around aberrations and ghosts, what do those rust monsters eat?
Sorry, cheap shot, but they can't RELY on adventurers...
I would imagine they could eat ore. I figured that rust monsters would inhabit mostly disused mines and such forth, food there would be plentiful. I would say it's a fair point. I find the greatest immersion when monsters in an area have a reason for being there, goblins, orcs. Cultists and demons etc.
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There comes a time when the jewels cease to sparkle, when the gold loses its lustre, when the throne-room becomes a prison, all that remains that brings us joy is ... rust monsters.
Seriously though, I used rust monsters in my quest last night .. the timing of which I can only assume, at least in part, prompted the initial post by PnP. Why did I? Those participating (hopefully) know the answer and (hopefully) deemed them an entirely appropriate beasty to encounter at that part of proceedings.
I 100% agree they shouldn't make an appearance unless it makes complete IC sense for them to be present and a GM should consider many of the things raised by PnP and Script Wrecked when deciding whether to feature these creatures in a quest.
I also think they, if used sparingly, provide an opportunity for some variation to the normal dynamic of a questing party. Archers to the fore! The low level, broad area, low damage spells normally useless on a med-high level quest all of a sudden of vital importance again.
In summary, any encounter with rust monsters present should have not only the 'challenge rating' but also the possible ramifications to the characters and the appropriateness of their presence be given careful consideration by the GM running the quest. That said, "adventurer beware" is my philosophy!
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Honestly I've seen more rust monsters on quests than goblins, orcs and kobolds combined. Perhaps on par with the number of humans, including all NPCs. So much so that it appears that destroying gear seems to be an end within itself, vs the plot item defense which just didnt hold water. If the rust monsters were so vital to the quests I was on, they wouldnt just appear out of nowhere, eat your gear and vanish for the rest of the quest. There's be some follow-up, perhaps a nest of younglings to feel sorry for, or some evil druid who actually lures them there in your way. But to just consistantly keep seeing the little buggers around every corner with about an 85% probability gets redundant.
Bjorn always has a backup hammer and ranged weapon now not because he fears the rust monster, but because he cant go on a single bloody quest without one popping up out of nowhere. That's not fear, that's just redundant fatalism. It's like making a habit of taking a bee bee gun with you to the car because every time you leave the house the same blasted pidgeon poops on your head. Then the one time your friend says "you're crazy man, there is no pidgeon out to get you, it was just that one time", you peer out, look both ways, see nothing, breathe a sigh of relief, look up, and it poops in your eye, cackling madly.
If the goal is just to eat gear then, why not do it in a less cliche manner? Sunder a weapon, have your NPC boss and the target make their checks and potentially shatter their uberpwnage sword of plus1337ness in a way which furthers RP with animosity for the villain. Or thieving drow buggers with disarm who sneak up and STEAL you items. There just cant be a corrosive rustmonster for every single situation, can there? If the party is rushing and bashing too much, why not add TRAPS? Rogues like traps, it makes them feel like they didnt waste 3 skillpoints/level.
Also, what's with the rust monsters always making critical morale checks when "hunting" parties of adventurers who outnumber and outsize them many times over? Will a rust monster REALLY be hungry enough that it will lunge into a suicidal frenzy trying to eat people bigger than its own head? Seems more likely the poor little bugger will shriek and flee, or at the very least back up and snarl, vs 100% of the time flinging itself into the gaping jaws of death just so it can lick your mithral on last time before it dies. This to me is just as ludicrous an interaction as a lone lvl 13 dark elf trying to raid Hempstead with a fireball spell. I mean, yeah sure he could kill maybe one or two people, but his death is assured after that point. If suddenly your party's druid cant even make a check to try to calm a rust monster, the party backs up and it follows them, attempting to kill all 10+ adventurers in a bull rush of inevitable self-termination, then there's something fishy about its appearance. A creature the size of a small dog that attempts to eat several beings many times its size and number would be flat out too stupid to survive extinction for more than a few generations. Keep in mind, plenty of larger monsters out there dont even have armor for it to threaten! To most of the ecosystem, the rust monster is just a wee feeder cricket in a pond of bullfrogs!
*walks around the corner* ARGH! AGAIN! *shakes his fist at the invisible air* That's it, I'm making a monk!
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**tentavily raises his hand**
I've never used/inserted a rust monster in either my PnP or Layo campaigns (though I think one module I ran had a rust monster built-in). I prefer the old fashioned (and opposite) method of killing players: treasure on one side of the room, adventurers on the other, nigh-unkillable monster in the middle. Like taking candy from a baby. Adventurers can't resist their inherent lust for goodies.
*wicked grin*
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I dunno about every one , but to me it seems a fighter/ front liner will only run from a rust-monster IF they have encountered one before .
Policy states we are not allowed to read the floaty texts above monsters , so If you never met one ( and lost equipment to it ) you wouldn't run .
This of-course results in front liners that meets a rust-monster , to lose ( or have a big chance to ) part of their gear .
Would be nice if this was the case for other characters as-well .
How to fill this in would be interesting to say the least ;)
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Termites of Destruction
Cloth Eating Moths of Doom
Leather Eating Swamp Slimes
Wood Warping Humidity Pixies
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Lasagna of ever-staining *nods*
Or maybe just a big fat dwarf with mithral teeth who eats all your gear just because he needed more iron in his diet.
Honestly, my favorite armor breakers in Fantasy gaming have to be the Warhammer Barfing Trolls. They can walk right up to regiments of elite chaos champions and upchuck all their neigh invincible armor to sludge, then whallop them with double their strength.
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What good are rust monster?
1. Rust monsters are scary as was pointed out by the last post.
2. It can be quite amusing to a not so wholesome character to watch a big dumb fighter lose his sword or armor.
If its not your sword/armor thats just been lost. Schadenfreude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude) is hardly something we should be encouraging.
This server allows evil characters. As someone who has an evil character with a very twisted sense of humor I can assure you he would find this quite funny. People need to remember the difference between player and character. I understand that can be hard sometimes when it involves something precious, but we have very few actually unique items in Layo. Just about everything is replaceable and in great quantities as is attested to by the failed economy.
3. The loss can lead to all kind of RP.
a. The guy in number 2 can make fun of the fighter and make a nice enemy or at lease get pummeled a bit.
b. The guy that lost X, now can go buy a new one or, perhaps through some persuasion get some friends to feel sorry and replace it.
Or not. The system is not set up for the easy replacement of lost items. These items were hard to get the first time, and will be hard again to replace.
Having to replace something you had is demoralising.
It may be demoralizing, but hardly that large of an issue. "Things" in the world of layonara are ridiculously easy to get. Perhaps you as the player or perhaps it is your character, do not have the "right" connections, but just about everything is attainable as far as I can tell. Other than a few very rare drop items, there are few things I have though I wish I could have and didn't just go out and buy or acquire.
Even if you "specialize" in a certain weapon, it really is not very bright to never have alternatives. Carry an extra wooden club. Improvise and whip out a fishing pole.
So, are you suggesting people carry around more equipment in their inventories?
Yes actually I am. Don't play the "inventory/server lag" card on being smart about equipping your character. There is a big difference between an extra wooden club in your pack and 5 boxes of random junk you've managed to collect.
If it's a GM related thing, don't get locked into mechanics. Just because you are in a barren stock "dungeon/cave" room, doesn't always mean it is empty. Make sure to ask if there is anything around. Maybe there is a table, break the leg off. Maybe there are some logs/sticks. I'm sure any GM would grant you a basic wooden club to act as that table leg or log. Can't hit anything with a plain old club?? Well, of course you brought along a mage or cleric right? Just whip up a GMW and it's a super club.
This sort of improv is hard to do in the middle of combat.
I don't believe anyone, especially not me, said that you would do this DURING combat. I fail to see why if you see a monster on a quest you need to run up and attack it without strategy first. Only a sick GM is going to just drop a rust monster on a party with no warning. If you claim you don't know it's there until practically on top of it and then it's too late, then I say why wasn't your rogue/ranger/scout out in front finding out what was down the road/tunnel/cavern. Seriously, I have been a GM in PnP and here on layo and *IF* I decided to put a rust monster somewhere and the party went blindly running through tunnels, got into a fight and lost some equipment, I would have little sympathy. Consider this a warning should I get elected to GM again, if you blindly run all over the place you likely won't like my quests.
Perhaps a lot of my views do come because I have a PnP background, even if I haven't played in over a decade. But, being a role play server, I think people need to remember, a quest should not be about the "race" and it should be more about the story. Granted once combat has started in the nwn engine it is very difficult to just "pause" for discussions. But leading up to combat, there is just as much time as there is in the world of PnP.
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I don't care about all those well formulated responses .
Fact is : rust-monsters do exist and will turn up in the moments you cant use them .
Make them destroy jewelry and other items made with metals , just like they destroy weapons and shield .
" the bloody thing eat my ring / amulet "
I think that would make the monsters even less desirable to each and everyone encounter them .
putting those in the front-line up for main-victims is already been done too much ....perhaps it's time to build something that directly attacks the ones that are hiding behind the front-line with nothing better to do *shrugs*
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putting those in the front-line up for main-victims is already been done too much ....perhaps it's time to build something that directly attacks the ones that are hiding behind the front-line with nothing better to do *shrugs*
Dark elven assassains with shadowdancer levels! *insane grin* Magekillers with SR!
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Just lost Bjorn's mithral hammer last night to yet another one. Yet again, the bloody things RIGHT AFTER A DOOR. So you open the door, bam, rust. What exactly was I supposed to learn from this? How does this increase ANYBODY'S enjoyment of the game? It doesn't, at all. Now I have to save up for months and months and waste time I could have spent RPing with the orphanage, exploring distant lands, etc... all because a Rust monster appears to like to play peek-a-boo.
Why the cheap placement? How come every time I see a rust monster its right on the area transition, the doorway or around the corner? Why this obsession with trapping people with no chance to spot them?
I call shennanigans. And I want all these vile little fiends removed from the game entirely. They serve no other purpose than to infuriorate gamers and make them feel like not playing anymore. What's the point? And now with the trickle-up economy, and adamantium sealed tighter than a drum for all but the lvl 25+ers who dont even play any more, odds arent very likely I'll ever get another hammer of even adamantium, let alone mithral. Great. At the very least there could have been a gap between the rust monster and the door... or maybe a family of rust monsters. But no, this little bugger seems to live with air elementals and goblins who'd see it as food, and its habitat consists of the 5 sqft area directly in front of a door. Behind the door is a long corridor that leads to mnonsters that would eat it. what gives?
GGGAAAAAH I HATE RUST MONSTERS!!!!
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You know... It wouldnt be so bad if Rust mOnsters gave you what they stole from you when you kill them... Oh! What a Novel Idea! Kill it fast enough and you can get yer stuff back!
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I have to agree, being on that trip yesterday where bjorn lost it, the rust monster was very ill placed, not to mention that that room is a death trap. Got killed by two arrows, in that very same room, while being stuck and unable to move.
Edits: all in all though, I do love the new areas. Great work.
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Okay, both a concession and a criticism on that one.
First, the line of sight is funky in there and I'll fully admit that I didn't anticipate it being so darn hard to see around. It feels like something changed in line of sight. Also, those goblins somehow ended up a lot tougher then I'd wanted. So, sorry. There's a patch coming and I am responsible for not recognizing how difficult it would be to see in there.
That said, your tone and assumption isn't exactly appreciated Lonn. It's always humorous to read what you write but the constant undercurrent of divisive sentiment, if not direct comment, gets a bit old. There are no rust monsters placed behind doors, no rust monsters placed 'right around the corner' or 'right at the transition'. It was a funky line of sight I hadn't planned on. I apologize - but if it weren't for a bunch of headless chickens scurrying about firing arrows at every creature down hallways then maybe the rust monsters a hallway away with no other creatures placed nearby wouldn't have come scurrying towards us.
Furthermore, on deathtraps Hellblazer... let's remember we're talking about a cleric-less group of mostly sub 20's fighting level 26 creatures. I'll take responsibility for leading folks into a place too difficult, but personal accountability...
Lonn, as for the trickle-up economy, I kinda understand how you feel in some regards. +3 is perhaps over-protected and Dorg and I were planning on having a conversation about that this week. And yeah, we have a lot of guilds and high epics that have accumulated a *lot*. So it's a bit off, sure. Did I appreciate your snide remark when I offered you an immediate mithril replacement? Not really. It seemed like a mostly ooc temper tantrum. Seriously - I get it. Some things seem like they've been so retrograded to meet the highest common denominator that it seems that spirit has been lost in the face of economics. All I can say is that I've been looking into the very same thing. But as funny as your posts are, they are divisive. And I'm not a fan.
That said, I'd be a bit upset too if a rusty got my favorite item. So sorry it happened.
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Don`t get me wrong Chongo, the map is great, and yes we were without clerics. But when I got killed, a cleric wouldn`t have been able to do much. I was stuck against a well, undable to click to move due to not having a proper line of sight, and something was preventing me from moving away by driving her away. I was right in plain sight of the archer who downed me with two arrows. Granted Sil is only level 17, but had I been abel to move in between the 15 seconds at least (my estimation of the time frame) I would probably have been able to move away enough to get the archer to aim at someone else.
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"Constant undercurrent of divisive sentiment"? Wow... I am truly sorry that you feel that way. I'm sorry if you don't like my tone. From my side of things we open a door and a rust monster is there. This is keeping with the theme of the thread. I am not calling you any names or insulting you, just saying what I saw. Maybe if it travelled to the door from many corridors down, I dont know. I only saw what I did from my perspective.
I also apologize if thee were any snide comments last night when you offered me a free +3 weapon, though I do not remember any at the time. I was mostly upset that I had lost my beloved hammer, and did not yell anything about any other topic than the loss of my hammer. I rejected your offer of a free new weapon not out of spite or rage, just because it might be considered muling to just hand a person a +3 weapon, despite the situation. There was no OOC temper tantrum and I am rather sorry that you saw it as such. I strive to be IC at all times, and am rather insulted that you would accuse me of OOC temper tantrums.
That being said, my opinion and point of view still stands on rust monsters and their placement. Every time I have ever encountered one, its either manually placed around a corner or appears behind a door. This is no dig on you, just me expressing my disdain for rust monsters that pop up out of nowhere. Maybe the trigger set one off nearby and it heard the death screams of the monsters we had just fought? I dont know. In any case, in that dungeon, you open a door and a rust monster is there.
I am entirely saddened that you view this as an attack on you or divisive or that any of my actions were OOC ranting in any way, or that I am a constant source of devisiveness. Honestly if you had such personal opinions about me, it might rather have been better handled in a PM rather than here in the open, as the only thing I was talking about was rust monster placement and their function in game. Again, I am sorry if my tone or comments seem a dig on you, but they were not. And some of the stuff you just said I took very personally. I just don't like rust monsters and how they pop up right behind the door.
Obviously something I did or said made you angry, so again I'm sorry. It was not my intent to tick you off. I don't hate you, I just hate rust monsters.
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Don`t get me wrong Chongo, the map is great, and yes we were without clerics. But when I got killed, a cleric wouldn`t have been able to do much. I was stuck against a wall, unable to click to move due to not having a proper line of sight, and something was preventing me from moving away by driving her away. I was right in plain sight of the archer who downed me with two arrows. Granted Sil is only level 17, but had I been able to move in between the 15 seconds at least (my estimation of the time frame) I would probably have been able to move away enough to get the archer to aim at someone else.
With Jennara (34), Abiorn (30), Wren(25), Bjorn (20); it only left, Aerimor (18 ), sil'via (17) and Timulty (15) under the 20`s. Felix (the lowest levels in all of us having died and respawned earlier in the mountains.). With that I`d say that the levels were pretty much on target, but the lack of a cleric probably squewed thigns up. Although, even with that, it`s really the fact that i was stuck and unable to get a good angle to see, that killed Sil'via.
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Please keep it civil everyone. This thread has been constructive thus far and it would be great if it stayed that way.
Remember that this textual media is far from being perfect when it comes to describe how you feel about something. Things easily get twisted and understood in ways no one ever intended. Yes, we're back at the old perception-beast that pops up every now and then.
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Agreed with Harlas' sentiment.
In addition, this only underscores how important it is, when unintended and unanticipated things go badly, to take a pause, talk and listen most importantly before going on a public rant. Work with the people who can adjust things to be more reasonable rather than...well...*points up*
Having said all this:
@lonnarin, this is now a confirmed and admitted bug/design flaw/whatever. File for a replacement item. Show proof, via screen shots or logs, of the lost item, and we'll refund it to you.
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Jennara (34), Abiorn (30), Wren(25), Bjorn (20); it only left, Aerimor (18 ), sil'via (17) and Timulty (15) under the 20`s. Felix (the lowest levels in all of us having died and respawned earlier in the mountains.).
Umm... where was this?
Don't get me wrong.. .I just always thought there was a grey line on lvl 30+'s traveling with lvl 5's?
My party got pulled not so long back.. mainly because certain areas hadn't been balanced since V3.. which was no problem. We didn't know... nor did the team... so no biggie.
But it was highlighted that having a lvl 14 with us when our highest lvl was 19 was a "not" so good idea. Because they basically had access to high lvl drops which they wouldn't normally.
So. Er.
There was an exception here? Was it a quest?
Just curious is all folks. :)
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without giving out to much ooc info on the location.. it's on west. And it was to show the new area trip made by Abiorn with a gm present in gm mode. An area that is accessible to any one, but oh so dangerous *grins*
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I'll let Chongo comment on the rest, as there have been no level recommendations set for these new areas (yet), however...
But it was highlighted that having a lvl 14 with us when our highest lvl was 19 was a "not" so good idea. Because they basically had access to high lvl drops which they wouldn't normally.
The more accurate statement here has nothing to do with the 14-19 split and has everything to do with the level 14 characters getting access to creatures who drop from the "High" loot list. It wouldn't have mattered if they were all level 14.
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Well I would not say it was a death trap but the combination of tight quarters and the expanded personal space issue that came with 1.69 do make it a tricky spot.
Now about rust monsters. Behind doors, under rocks, hiding in holes/cracks/crevasses is where they have always been found sine the dawn of rust monsters. Yes they scare the hell out of my PC (and me OOC). But as to why we get surprised by them here is a note on rust monsters:
A rust monster can smell a metal object from up to 90 feet away. When it detects one, it dashes toward the source and attempts to strike it with its antennae. The creature is relentless, chasing characters over long distances if they still possess intact metal objects but usually ceasing its attacks to devour a freshly rusted meal. The creature targets the largest metal object available, striking first at armor, then at shields and smaller items. It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity.
Of course this brings up the issue of why it did not try to eat the weapons of the bad guys we were fighting.
I cant imagine losing say my mithril shield to one or my armor. Things like that at this point in the world are close to irreplaceable. What gets me is that a rust monster can eat mithy as easy as it can eat copper. There is something wrong in that. Mithy is supposed to be the end all of metals the ultimate material for weapons and armor. It really should be immune to rust monsters. The other metal should have a graduated save with things like coatings and enhancements adding to the save throw.
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The more accurate statement here has nothing to do with the 14-19 split and has everything to do with the level 14 characters getting access to creatures who drop from the "High" loot list. It wouldn't have mattered if they were all level 14.
That is where party loot split guides come into play. No one should walk away with an item that they cannot use within at least the next 2 levels or so unless they are 24 or 25 plus. What I mean is if you are in the mid to high twenties and you find a item the is 29+ level req and no other person in the group can use it and it is meant for your class then you can take it. But if you are below that and especially if you are below 20 you really should not even ask to roll for items that are epic level. I am sure that we would have handled this in this way as we are sensitive to the drop access issue. I will admit that we made a mistake in allowing one of the under 20th levels to do the looting.
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I personally never lost anything to a rust monster, but that idea of a gradual resisitance by metal types, sounds like something very good and logical.
I will admit that we made a mistake in allowing one of the under 20th levels to do the looting.
I personally don't feel too bad in letting that particular person loot since i know who it is. That said, it would clearly be something that would be consider favoritism and not a good thing at all.
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I will admit that we made a mistake in allowing one of the under 20th levels to do the looting.
I personally don't feel too bad in letting that particular person loot since i know who it is and he gms here. That said, it would be clearly something that would be consider favoritism and not a good thing at all.
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I came along on an RP trip with a bunch of high-level characters, as my 6th level Bard, Felix. I didn't figure it would be very bashy to start, and when it GOT bashy, well - I was only getting 1 XP for the things that were killed.*** As to loot? Dorganath poses a grand point. I did pick up a weapon that was Level Requirement 17, and some 1600 gold... (1k of which was lost when I died.)
At first, I'd felt a bit sketchy about running around with the high-levels, doing their looting, letting them stand in front while I hucked Bardsong and arrows, but then I just kicked up what I was contributing by a few notches. As to loot? Well.
Considering the nature of the trip, I feel that that should be handled on an in-character level (though those of you who know me know how I'll handle it in that case, anyway). I was also REALLY hoping to see the later, cooler stuff, but didn't get the chance (though some of the things I did see were AWESOME! Roar!). The joys of AoE. :)
But to get back on-topic...
Perhaps Rust Monsters should be used less by DMs in an "I DROP IT AND WATCH 'EM SQUEAL AHAHAHAH" manner (yes, that's a bit of jest); putting them right next to folks, or just around a corner... Sure. I think we can all agree that due to the nature of just what they can do, they should be something the party can at least see before it hits them.
As to the case in this instance? From what I'm reading, it was a builder's mistake. It happens. It's even reimbursable! Things move on.
[/Stephen]
*** (I actually got about ten times as much XP from DM-granted RP rewards as I did from combat, so I don't think XP could be the issue.)
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Felix was great, writing poems and songs as we went and giving great descriptions of what we were seeing. I thought the RP was top shelf. It was like bring along a scribe that was recording the adventure for story telling later on. Thanks :)
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Couple of points... the "way too high item level" idea doesn't take into account the number of items which have a disproportionately low item level... think about + to save cloaks, +con boots, or +str/dex bracers. Often, if a lower level is tagging along with a higher level group, they will get this kind of item, which creates incentives to go to higher level areas. As far as true, most low to mid levels can make far more in a group of 2-3 on west then with a larger, higher level group in high level areas, so I personally don't see that as a problem.
Second, with regards to xp, IMO, a very high level spread going to high level areas isn't usually a problem. Characters will earn very low experience, and it's typically not worth the danger. Likewise, if a higher level is helping lower levels in a low level area, (so long as everyone's contributing) it's fine because they aren't getting more xp than they would otherwise, and the level requirements are there to prevent characters from getting the benefits of areas they shouldn't be able to go to with a group at their level.
The problem occurs when characters (completely within the level/area guidelines) travel in parties -a bit- too high for their level... Typically this is level 8s going with a mid-level party and killing giants endlessly, or maybe a couple levels later going to the misted village - places a reasonable sized party of level 8s, or level 10s would have a great deal of difficulty with (my definition of reasonable sized may differ from yours, and I may not have as well-built characters to judge from - substitute other areas/levels if you wish), but still give very good XP. IMO, that kind of thing is more against the spirit of the server then what is technically too high of a level spread when it's for IC reasons, and little risk of unfairly benefiting low level.
So... bottom line, in those pesky level spread situations, ask yourself what your character would do, is it resonable IC, and would your character be gaining anything they shouldn't be able to get at their level.
Oh, and rust monsters... Glad I play a monk and a druid ;)
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LordCove:
The recommendation for this region is still under discussion, but the initial proposal was:
5) Travel beyond K'halziras is 17+, and it is advised that travel into K'halziras is limited for anyone under 17.
K'halziras is technically 17+. RP specific or exploratory forays into K'halziras are appropriate for lower levels on rare occasions. Travel beyond K'halziras is most assuredly 17+ however regardless of the occasion.
Hope that clarifies things. The group in question died at K'halziras.
My opinion is that if something new opens, then people should be allowed the exploratory venture. Spirit of the law and whatnot when coupled with the notion of exclusivity in new higher level areas.